Best Of

nanfoodle wrote: »

IMO what i tested was nice but seems to most end around level 7-9. Playing the first handful of levels was the best I have seen so far. IMO allot of what they did needs to not be a sharp plunge at level 9 to 99% grind. Finding small events everywhere that as you grinder caused you to know just do the most effective grind but also to work towards the reward of the event.

Mob placement made sense and this needs to be everywhere as well.

I would like to more steps in the events that slowly pus players together to a larger event that takes more players. With rewards that make it a custom that players want to do them.

can you elaborate more about your 1 to 7-9 experience?

HighCanFly wrote: »

And it's a no go from europe here...
Bit sad to know about it only now because I took days off for it.

Sad stuff, I was very happy to be able to play the launch. Good luck america

you should play though. the more people from europe, the sooner you will get your EU server. If people from europe start thinking like you and not playing waiting for the EU server, then the EU server wont happen

IMO what i tested was nice but seems to most end around level 7-9. Playing the first handful of levels was the best I have seen so far. IMO allot of what they did needs to not be a sharp plunge at level 9 to 99% grind. Finding small events everywhere that as you grinder caused you to know just do the most effective grind but also to work towards the reward of the event.

Mob placement made sense and this needs to be everywhere as well.

I would like to more steps in the events that slowly pus players together to a larger event that takes more players. With rewards that make it a custom that players want to do them.

I think M O D U L E S are meant to be pretty much exactly that. But we obviously don't have those yet.

I had to think a bit about how to answer while staying in the general concept of a Reference post. So I'll answer you using questions. Questions that run through my head every time I see what I think is wonky Econ design. Assume that all the questions are 'targeted at Intrepid/MMO Devs in general'. Disclaimers in red.

1. Why don't y'all focus a larger amount of gear progression on things like augmented abilities to keep the stat spread as tight as possible?
a) Can't do it/don't have the skill or tech (FF11, most older games)
b) Value or believe most players value the feeling of getting higher numbers more than builds (WoW, themeparks)
c) Can't figure out how to make the economy work with so many complex incentives, or prefer timesink enhancing grinds (BDO, other Korean P2W, arguably Alpha-2 P2)
d) Feel that rewarding players with higher time dedication is required for retention (arguably Throne and Liberty, but not really clear)

I don't think MMORPGs need to entirely avoid 'number go up' but that PvP MMOs should avoid it whenever they reasonably can.

2. Given the way MMO gear drops generally need to be designed, why don't you use lesser gear as enhancement materials for more powerful gear directly in some way?
a) Going with the approach of absolute dedication to a different Econ type such as 'heavy use of consumables' and/or really want Adventure-focused players to have the option to just always move forward (FF11, WoW, other PvE games)
b) Unwilling or unable to design the open world/mobs/ecology with a generally flatter power curve to support this (Throne and Liberty)
c) Absolute dedication to forcing Adventurers to rely on Crafters/crafting, or unnecessary due to powerful gear-sinks (most Sandbox games, early New World sorta)
d) Just don't believe that gear drops need to be implemented such that even leveling players can get progression gear once or twice per hour of serious play (BDO, a few others)

I think the genre is kinda only now experimenting with how best to handle this new paradigm, so I'm biased toward the success type I see in TL.

3. Why not just make use of more materials from multiple tiers and spread out their availability more to solve the issue of invalidation of old content/Macro Slots?
a) Trying to avoid complexity due to the audience type that you believe your game attracts, or not having the design experience to know which things to put where even if you wanted to (Throne and Liberty somewhat, maybe Alpha P2.5 and apparently P3?)
b) Unwilling or unable to design workable sources and ecology due to the setting of the world or other design constraints (FF14 sorta, most failed, or even not-entirely-failed short lived UE4 era MMOs)
c) Want or need to keep stratification of players based on investment level and time, and/or strongly believe that Artisanship needs to be a long and arduous path of dedication (FF11 result, intended or not, for the crafts where this approach was less common)
d) Higher focus on instanced content and wanting to make sure to homogenize rewards as much as possible to avoid friction or complaints (various 'groupfinder' MMOs, certain times in WoW)

I'm super biased to think that 'suits' are the main reason this happens, I figure they devalue the the dev time involved because 'they can still get most of the money without doing this'.

4. Why avoid or limit robust economy options/opportunities for players to find niches where they excel and feel comfortable?
a) Fear of bots, abundance of caution regarding bots, alts, and other abuses (Throne and Liberty - this is moreso me desperately hoping that's their real reason)
b) Low or minimal incentive to offer players too much of this due to it being an easier way to get them to spend real money in the game Cash shop directly (BDO sorta, many other Korean MMOs)
c) Opposition to RMT or P2W elements to the point where the economy itself must be clamped/treated as a threat model instead of an important game aspect (nothing comes to mind directly but I'm sure most people know of a game like this)
d) Unwillingness to use arbitrary econ limiter clamps such as Labor, Energy, Contract Limits, etc to solve the soft versions of the 3 things above (Ashes of Creation)

I always worry/fear that games flinch at the idea of committing to a good deep economy because they often either rely on consumables (FF11), almost entirely fail to feel engaging because of design or ecology issues (BDO), or end up too exploitable (FF11 again, various bot-ridden MMOs).

I know that the above doesn't really 'answer your questions', that's because I really believe that Developers have to think about what their game can afford to do, sometimes those 'unpleasant options' above really are so important that they are valid answers.

So even if I really really want to see a game where low level gear 'has augments that can substitute for leveling up a skill, or offer a function that is seldom needed at higher levels... where when bandits drop Sheepskin Gloves with Accuracy +5 you can combine them into your own Reinforced Sheepskin Gloves and get that +5 Accuracy in a slot/trait like TL, where drops from older content are applied as materials to uncommon-but-still-useful higher level items, and where there are strong ecology niches and a carefully considered system for limiting the direct benefits of spending 9h a day grinding currency.

Oh wait I already almost have that game...

But that game is not Ashes of Creation, so for Ashes all I want is for them to have answers to those questions that most people accept. Because to me, in all arrogance, many of those answers are terrible, and 95% of 'answers I didn't write down' are also terrible.

I believe good devs can find ways to navigate most other problems, within their intended sub-genre, without constantly shrugging off requests for things to be better.

I want to believe that Intrepid has many good Devs. But as of now, the questions mostly still stand, and aside from the answer to question #4 being known to be 'D', I feel like we haven't received answers yet, so I'm just waiting and continuing to ask them.

@Ludullu
Are you talking about time investment into node buildup or smth? I'm not sure what time sinks you're talking about here.
Yes the time investment to build a node up in general vs the time it takes to destroy one. Same with the guild exp ect. Really anything, your castle or freehold too. Overall this game is a massive time sync, which is GREAT, but also so much can be taken away and the player can be powerless to stop it or avoid it. It'll be punch in the gut. People will only take so many until they aren't having fun anymore.

The people who care enough about destroying someone else's gameplay to this degree will simply buy another account.
Nothing is stopping them from buying two accounts now and doing whatever with them regardless if there's a surname/tracking system or not. Paying for multiple accounts isn't really p2w in my opinion. Those who will do that will do it, many families play together and will use their family members account to gain an advantage in so way, even if it's just sitting around waiting for a lotus to spawn. Multiboxing is p2w though. I don't think this could qualify at least on my scale.

they would've left the game sooner rather than later either way.
People do often leave if their guild falls apart. In Ashes what I see happening is guilds falling apart because Nodes fall apart to overwhelming odds. Not just from spies but from many design pillars Ashes is currently looking at implementing. The question is why let the spies hide behind anonymity so freely? Yes Steven likes this game play, but this isn't AA or L2. The impact will be bigger.

You simply cannot stop this,
It's not an all or nothing concept, there are exceptions to every rule, and you can't stop all bad from happening, but that doesn't mean you do nothing.

The game won't live long without causals. I tend to be more on the sweaty side when free time permits. But if this game is just full of sweatys it's going to stink. Pun intended. So lets not design system to chase away causals...