Some people say that action combat is not that popular like how people make it ought to be but it's just coming out. People are so worried to try something new like it could blow up on them anytime. They prefer to use the one they're used to because it works. Eventually, all of those tab targetting or click hack and slash type of gameplay will become outdated.
Thats actually a good point by aeunexcore. Developers wont invest a whole lot of money into something that isnt already proven to work to some extent. So they will probably just go with whatever combat system seems the most popular right now. You can easily tell by number of players in each game and what combat system it actually uses.
I would love for the combat to be focused on two aspects. It would help out for players who hate tab and vice versa but seeing a combat style like shadows of morodor would be absolutely amazing! Just the playstyle of it is amazing and so fluid. It would also let players maybe try different combat styles that they haven't tried before.
Lol to everyone thinking BDO combat takes skill. BDO is the literally definition of item grind and Luck. RNG is not combat skill.
% chance for debuff to land, rinse and repeat until CC lands, dps down to death
Rinse, repeat. That is all action combat devolves into. You can pretty it up all you want but that is the generic action to all of BDO combat. even GW2. ... don't kid yourself into thinking that because you can move more freely it requires skill. It just places more importance on IFrame movement skills then the same combos begin.
A dodge mechanic similar to GW2 is fine. But dont take too many ideas from BDO. It simply isnt a good MMO
The combat in Bless Online is also well made. I played that a little while. But there only a few spells and always hitting brainles the same key`s is soooo, so sooo boring with time! :/ There I lost fast my interest. Only a good graphic makes not a good game.
I like a more a complicate and clever system.
I hope the combat system of AoC will make much "sense" - the class / class mix,.. every should be very important ... and have then huge influence and there place... it must be real to feel --> the difference, if any class or buff is missing.
--->> Not such a stiupid game, where 12 tanks are even able to make a 12 man raid or such things... pls pls nooo! -.-???? At best 12 dwarf`s. No way. :P
And hope you look a little bit to EQ2 and Vanguard too, while you create for us the next tripple a mmorpg. :) But I know you do.^^
I really hope that AoC will have a fast paced combat system. BDO and Blade and Soul comes to mind. Looking at the mage game play trailer I felt like the combat system will be a bit slow or heavy compared to the games mentioned above. Of course, this game is still in pre-alpha so we can still hope for more. Really excited!
I think the simple and best way to do combat is to have a decent "auto aim" feature for ranged skills somewhere between what it's like in ESO and BDO and then have a simple lock on system like ESO has. Apart from that we should make the combat action based like Black desert where the majority of skils are combo based but you also have a skill bar with 10 skill slots for certain skills. (and maybe have separate hotkey settings available for potions, pets and mounts etc. so they don't clutter up your skill bar)
This way you have mechanics in game to effectively accomplish the same tasks you would with tab targeting but also have a fast, responsive and skill curve based combat system.
Yeah it looked similar to ESO's combat system... Some actions were more fast paced like they were in BDO but there was a "blockiness" or chunky feel to the combat at times.... like the shoulders were always too square to the camera.
What I really LOVE about BDO's combat is how fluid and graceful all of the combat and movement is. You feel more like a real character or person in the world... you bump into people when you walk etc. Your body twists and turns all around when you're fighting or casting spells... it just looks really damn good.
Like BDO's combat is so good it makes me overlook all of its other flaws, Server DeSync, Limited openworld PvP, no true raid roles in PvP (DPS, Tank Healer etc. like it's pseudo roles some can heal but everyone can DPS and there aren't any real tank classes) and Janky naval physics and of course The LONG LONG LONG Grind... but the combat is soo good and the graphics are so good that you don't mind the grind and you truly become invested in your characters. You can spend hours on the character creation screen making a new toon and I find myself constantly going back and tweaking my characters looks/costumes etc quite often. Most of my guildies are the same way.
I feel like the bar for fluid satisfying combat has been truly raised with Black Desert and having satisfying realistic characters and character animations are also very important now.
[quote quote=10786]Lol to everyone thinking BDO combat takes skill. BDO is the literally definition of item grind and Luck. RNG is not combat skill.
% chance for debuff to land, rinse and repeat until CC lands, dps down to death
Rinse, repeat. That is all action combat devolves into. You can pretty it up all you want but that is the generic action to all of BDO combat. even GW2. … don’t kid yourself into thinking that because you can move more freely it requires skill. It just places more importance on IFrame movement skills then the same combos begin.
A dodge mechanic similar to GW2 is fine. But dont take too many ideas from BDO. It simply isnt a good MMO
[/quote]
You are incredibly wrong about Black Desert. It's clear you never made it to end game and/or never truly learned how to play your class. I've seen people with crazy high gearscore get rolled by someone who knows how to play their class. I've also experienced it many times myself where I had gear that far surpassed my opponents but they were just so damn good that they repeatedly beat me. This caused me to actually delve deeper in my class and learn all of its animation cancels and the best combos for PvP and how to move and track targets better then wouldn't you know! all of a sudden I did MUCH better! Soon I was the one killing people with higher gear score and levels than me.
You clearly just did not "Get" BDO's combat and didn't take the time to learn or master your class. The ONLY real legitimate complaint you could have is server De-Sync which IS a problem but not one so great as to counter a player's skill. You just have to accept that it can occur and adjust on the fly. In a way it's another variable within the combat that keeps you on your toes.
Sure you might De-Sync into a Berzerker's grab chain but you also just as often de-sync out of it or avoid it entirely.
Black Desert's combat rewarded dedication and skill. Dedication to grind your character and gear to end game specs and the skill to master your class enough to use it well.
Your comments clearly reflect your lack of determination to do either.
[quote quote=12473]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-terabdo-or-more-like-gw2/page/5/#post-10786" rel="nofollow">Dissodant wrote:</a></div> Lol to everyone thinking BDO combat takes skill. BDO is the literally definition of item grind and Luck. RNG is not combat skill.
% chance for debuff to land, rinse and repeat until CC lands, dps down to death
Rinse, repeat. That is all action combat devolves into. You can pretty it up all you want but that is the generic action to all of BDO combat. even GW2. … don’t kid yourself into thinking that because you can move more freely it requires skill. It just places more importance on IFrame movement skills then the same combos begin.
A dodge mechanic similar to GW2 is fine. But dont take too many ideas from BDO. It simply isnt a good MMO
</blockquote> You are incredibly wrong about Black Desert. It’s clear you never made it to end game and/or never truly learned how to play your class. I’ve seen people with crazy high gearscore get rolled by someone who knows how to play their class. I’ve also experienced it many times myself where I had gear that far surpassed my opponents but they were just so damn good that they repeatedly beat me. This caused me to actually delve deeper in my class and learn all of its animation cancels and the best combos for PvP and how to move and track targets better then wouldn’t you know! all of a sudden I did MUCH better! Soon I was the one killing people with higher gear score and levels than me.
You clearly just did not “Get” BDO’s combat and didn’t take the time to learn or master your class. The ONLY real legitimate complaint you could have is server De-Sync which IS a problem but not one so great as to counter a player’s skill. You just have to accept that it can occur and adjust on the fly. In a way it’s another variable within the combat that keeps you on your toes.
Sure you might De-Sync into a Berzerker’s grab chain but you also just as often de-sync out of it or avoid it entirely.
Black Desert’s combat rewarded dedication and skill. Dedication to grind your character and gear to end game specs and the skill to master your class enough to use it well.
Your comments clearly reflect your lack of determination to do either.
[/quote]
You seem to insinuate that Dissodant hasn't reached end game nor played his class to the fullest, but he does have a point about the cc part. All you are waiting for in BDO combat is to chain a CC, once you do, it's rip in pepperoni for the poor soul that got CC'd. AP in the game is insane, if you have good rng and get that tri+ plus dande weapon and you're going against someone with 15 gear, you will destroy them, like you, I have seen it and experienced it.
I do agree with you that it takes skill, but the skill, animation cancel, is to chain a cc with combos, that's all; iframe dodge until you do though. I also agree with the dedication that game takes. You need time, and a lot of it for the "endgame" content BDO offers.
At this point, a lot of mmo's are just not doing it well, they can't seem to find a balance between pve, pvp, combat, etc. I'm not picky about combat as long as it's fun, doesn't matter it be tab target or action, and the animations are nice and fluid.
I block with the mouse button, swing sword with the other mouse button, dodging in a direction... if your sword lands a hit you hit... if you happen to dodge or block it well you done just that. <strong>Main point=No RNG please.</strong>
so then ...
light attack = click1 (No auto attack please....) combo = only 2 guaranteed hits after that opponent may dodge or counter.
strong attack = click1 + button or hold down click.
Block = click2 (please please please no RNG)
Dodge = moving out of the way.
<strong>How-to-Counter?</strong>
light attack spam = dodge/block/perhaps even something like a shield specific skill that lets you ward off (a weapon or attack), especially with a countermove but must be timed right as the attack would have landed.
strong attack = dodge/block
Perma-blocker = Shield kick/strong attack ...with maybe an item slot that forces players to take extra stamina damage pvp wise...Also the ability to back-stab people :)
Here I satisfy these things ...nothing over the top, nothing flashy, everything can be countered.... Most importantly No RNG. Also please limit AOE's .... I really do not want to see a group of people creating a black hole all huddled up in a tiny space spamming one attack.
I believe this is the key to actual skill based combat that satisfies tab "lock on" and nothing really over the top either. This way it's all about timing the right move and positioning correctly. If you get too greedy about spamming one move well the opposing player shall have the tools to punish through blocking/dodging in the right direction/countering. Take out the RNG and you can have a low-level player beat anything.
<strong> If you think this is too bland please let me know and I'll reference you with some fine examples :) </strong>
Tab targeting all the way! I hate games like BDO, ESO, Wildstar, and not super fond of GW2. All of those games combat systems got boring and bland quickly. I want to think so at minimum it can not be a button masher. I want benefits and consequences to making wrong choices with abilities.
I actually prefer the standard tab targeting system over the locked mouse first person shooter action controlls. The action type feels like a niché to me and gets boring after awhile, even tried a koreanMMO where you had a mix of both and that was super annoying, so i quit that game fast.
My wish for as long as I have been gaming has been to get a combat system like the old text based game Gemstone IV had in a graphics based game. In that game you could call your shots and target parts of the body and actually remove an arm, hand, leg, foot, neck, an eye etc. The same injuries could happen to you. Every mob and player also had blood volume (hit points) and you could cause bleeding and potentially bleed to death. Most all mobs and players had nervous systems and organs that were all attackable. Graphical games have never taken such steps toward realism. Conan was on the right track with decapitations and chopping off arms and legs, but those were typically finishing moves.
Healers were called Empaths and they could take those injuries onto themselves and cure them; which was their primary way to level. Clerics were what they should be; spiritual warriors who's job was to bless things, fight undead and such and bring people back to life. Although, both classes could also hunt mobs and do whatever.
Personally, I prefer a reticle with an optional target lock. It gives a more fluid play style and can be implemented so high ping players are unaffected (the client reads who is where the reticle is pointing at and sends that to the server). Ranged AOE skills are quicker to fire off once you get use to 'point reticle first then press the button'. A key can then 'lock the current target'. In fact this and tab targeting can co-exist allowing the player to choose the right method for the task at hand.
I hope they move to reticle style targeting over tab target, having the ability to attack what you are looking at, seems to bring a more interactive style combat. You can be fighting one target, spin interrupt another target, spin and CC another, then back to your primary target, without having to click a button to lock on to each target individually. It makes for smooth, more interactive combat, and brings reward for skill and situational awareness.
I apologize if this has already been postwd. Check out this video. It will explain what the current plan for combat is: https://youtu.be/hIVnt8SDdrY Starting at 4:14
[quote quote=23079]It will explain what the current plan for combat is[/quote] Not really. "Hybrid action/tab targetting", "best of both systems", more meaningless phrases without additional context that they intentionally avoid providing (what are the advantages of both that you're keeping? Just telling us there are some is pointless). It's fine (not really, but that is a different topic) if they don't want to go in depth until the design is fully implemented, but at least throw us a bone and compare/contrast the design to any of the hybrid combat systems already out there.
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_S-VXF3UkD6QKf3FiA2U8_AmBi2miPWPtXqDcairep8/edit#heading=h.eiemq3y98zyn">Transcript of the video</a> for those interested.
Id like to see a combat system thats like the one used in tera, it has nice dodging/block mechanics and awesome feedback. That the character actualy moves some steps while performing the skill just feels right and is also way more realistic than just standing in place or walking in x/y direction regardles the attack. Havnt played a Tab/-action hybrid yet, but if various skills use diffrent systems i imagine it can be a little distracting and also makes the most positive aspect of action combat, not to need to click/tab a target, comletly useless. Also i like to train my attack chains and combos even when theres no enemy around - thats another thing only possible with pure action combat. Another flaw with tab targeting occurs when damaging objectives like parts of the castels/buildings/doors in the praised siege fights.. Noone wants ugly health bars, big enough to easily click on, attached to all the objects hiding the beautiful graphics. :s
I played gemstones sister game DR and there are alot of features i would love to see made into a graphics game. loved the fact that you could target a spell on a specific body part and your skill determined if you hit and how hard. Lots of good ideas in those two games, IS should check them out there is a free trial for them to get some ideas.
I'd like to see them cut the combat control to 4 movement keys + 3 mouse buttons. With skill keys for switching modes more than anything. Who knows, my fingers might actually work for the remainder of my life then. :D
@crymthann I dont think bodyparts with individual health would make a good gameplay even if it may sound nice at the beginning. Lets say u have 20 diffrent skills and 10 of them are combat skills like horizontal strike and vertical strike. The vertical strike will basicaly always hit the enemys head/shoulders while the horizontal strike will always hit the arms/body... in non casual gameplay this will result in only using 1-3 skills that do the most dmg to a particular body part and just remove all other skills from action bar. Because why bother wasting time to get shoulder health to 50% if u get the body to 0% earlier anyway. This will result in using like 2 attacks and run away for 5-20 or so seconds until those particular attacks are off cd again. Thats based on the assumption only having to get 1 body part to 0% as i cant imagine fighting without head/leg/whatever. However if u need to get all or multiple body parts to 0% or another low percentage, why even bother with individual health anyway.
@Rune_Relic Thats probably the worst idea ive ever seen :') Just think about all the times u need to push the switch mode button just to enable another skill, depending on mode rotation u will need to click 2-11 times to use a certain skill instead of 1. This is no console game. Oh by the way, if u get a programm like AutoHotkey and learn some programming u could make your 3 button idea work with any pc game.. it just wont be fun xd
The big thing I'd be worried about regarding bringing other game's combat designs into this one is the unexpected bugs/exploits (or whatever name you want to dub them with). Here's a few things that cross my mind regarding PvP in up and coming MMOs:
1. Consider both ESO (which was a semi-tab targeting action game) and Blade and Soul: both of these games had such a terrible animation cancelling system which was discovered by players after release and so ingrained into the coding that it was impossible to get rid of down the road. Fights like these tended to look like the players were having spasm attacks rather than fighting and what was worse was that the PvE dungeon difficulty cap and design for future content was then written to incorporate that into the game officially (example: you had to be able to animation cancel properly to achieve the required DPS in some sections or you wouldn't reach the damage required to pass the mechanics).
2. BDO's idea of fighting mechanics as far as using different key combinations to achieve the desired skill was fun, but the lack of cool downs on CC skills made the fights very much about getting the first CC and perma-locking your opponent. Before so many people figured this out the PvP was fun, but afterwards... my least favourite PvP experience. Let's not even touch on the desynching issues that the game has.
3. I'd like to see defined roles for classes (from one of their interviews I believe they already are doing this, but it's such a big issue in today's MMOs that it has to be mentioned). Homogenised classes are extremely boring because every fight turns out the same. ESO has gone through some various stages of this, at one point you'd see everyone running magic builds, then in a further patch you'd see stamina everywhere, then tanks on every class etc. BDO is one example of that now, everyone stacks AP or evasion builds and it works for pretty much every class. You don't end up needing to consider tactics at all because the meta for everything in terms of gear and builds is the same. I do understand that they've already talked about this regarding classes and sub classes and I think the idea is pretty cool, they just want to be very careful about allowing everyone to do everything on every class as well as everyone else.
4. Last, I decided to touch on it after all... ping/desynch. Proper skill cool downs, CC immunities/diminishing returns etc need to be in place or it's too hard for everyone higher than 100 ping to get involved. Sometimes people with higher ping will get hit with attacks they can't see coming, due to the nature of this fights need to have a window for recovery or it cuts out a massive chunk of the player base from PvP.
(Possible duplicate reply, think my last post bugged out and didn't go through. Cut and paste it here, sorry if there's 2 of them).
The big thing I'd be worried about regarding bringing other game's combat designs into this one is the unexpected bugs/exploits (or whatever name you want to dub them with). Here's a few things that cross my mind regarding PvP in up and coming MMOs:
1. Consider both ESO (which was a semi-tab targeting action game) and Blade and Soul: both of these games had such a terrible animation cancelling system which was discovered by players after release and so ingrained into the coding that it was impossible to get rid of down the road. Fights like these tended to look like the players were having spasm attacks rather than fighting and what was worse was that the PvE dungeon difficulty cap and design for future content was then written to incorporate that into the game officially (example: you had to be able to animation cancel properly to achieve the required DPS in some sections or you wouldn't reach the damage required to pass the mechanics).
2. BDO's idea of fighting mechanics as far as using different key combinations to achieve the desired skill was fun, but the lack of cool downs on CC skills made the fights very much about getting the first CC and perma-locking your opponent. Before so many people figured this out the PvP was fun, but afterwards... my least favourite PvP experience. Let's not even touch on the desynching issues that the game has.
3. I'd like to see defined roles for classes (from one of their interviews I believe they already are doing this, but it's such a big issue in today's MMOs that it has to be mentioned). Homogenised classes are extremely boring because every fight turns out the same. ESO has gone through some various stages of this, at one point you'd see everyone running magic builds, then in a further patch you'd see stamina everywhere, then tanks on every class etc. BDO is one example of that now, everyone stacks AP or evasion builds and it works for pretty much every class. You don't end up needing to consider tactics at all because the meta for everything in terms of gear and builds is the same. I do understand that they've already talked about this regarding classes and sub classes and I think the idea is pretty cool, they just want to be very careful about allowing everyone to do everything on every class as well as everyone else.
4. Last, I decided to touch on it after all... ping/desynch. Proper skill cool downs, CC immunities/diminishing returns etc need to be in place or it's too hard for everyone higher than 100 ping to get involved. Sometimes people with higher ping will get hit with attacks they can't see coming, due to the nature of this fights need to have a window for recovery or it cuts out a massive chunk of the player base from PvP.
The big thing I'd be worried about regarding bringing other game's combat designs into this one is the unexpected bugs/exploits (or whatever name you want to dub them with). Here's a few things that cross my mind regarding PvP in up and coming MMOs:
1. Consider both ESO (which was a semi-tab targeting action game) and Blade and Soul: both of these games had such a terrible animation cancelling system which was discovered by players after release and so ingrained into the coding that it was impossible to get rid of down the road. Fights like these tended to look like the players were having spasm attacks rather than fighting and what was worse was that the PvE dungeon difficulty cap and design for future content was then written to incorporate that into the game officially (example: you had to be able to animation cancel properly to achieve the required DPS in some sections or you wouldn't reach the damage required to pass the mechanics).
2. BDO's idea of fighting mechanics as far as using different key combinations to achieve the desired skill was fun, but the lack of cool downs on CC skills made the fights very much about getting the first CC and perma-locking your opponent. Before so many people figured this out the PvP was fun, but afterwards... my least favourite PvP experience. Let's not even touch on the desynching issues that the game has.
3. I'd like to see defined roles for classes (from one of their interviews I believe they already are doing this, but it's such a big issue in today's MMOs that it has to be mentioned). Homogenised classes are extremely boring because every fight turns out the same. ESO has gone through some various stages of this, at one point you'd see everyone running magic builds, then in a further patch you'd see stamina everywhere, then tanks on every class etc. BDO is one example of that now, everyone stacks AP or evasion builds and it works for pretty much every class. You don't end up needing to consider tactics at all because the meta for everything in terms of gear and builds is the same. I do understand that they've already talked about this regarding classes and sub classes and I think the idea is pretty cool, they just want to be very careful about allowing everyone to do everything on every class as well as everyone else.
Comments
% chance for debuff to land, rinse and repeat until CC lands, dps down to death
Rinse, repeat. That is all action combat devolves into. You can pretty it up all you want but that is the generic action to all of BDO combat. even GW2. ... don't kid yourself into thinking that because you can move more freely it requires skill. It just places more importance on IFrame movement skills then the same combos begin.
A dodge mechanic similar to GW2 is fine. But dont take too many ideas from BDO. It simply isnt a good MMO
But there only a few spells and always hitting brainles the same key`s is soooo, so sooo boring with time! :/
There I lost fast my interest. Only a good graphic makes not a good game.
I like a more a complicate and clever system.
I hope the combat system of AoC will make much "sense" - the class / class mix,.. every should be very important ...
and have then huge influence and there place... it must be real to feel --> the difference, if any class or buff is missing.
--->> Not such a stiupid game, where 12 tanks are even able to make a 12 man raid or such things... pls pls nooo! -.-????
At best 12 dwarf`s. No way. :P
And hope you look a little bit to EQ2 and Vanguard too, while you create for us the next tripple a mmorpg. :)
But I know you do.^^
Hopefully regards
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This way you have mechanics in game to effectively accomplish the same tasks you would with tab targeting but also have a fast, responsive and skill curve based combat system.
What I really LOVE about BDO's combat is how fluid and graceful all of the combat and movement is. You feel more like a real character or person in the world... you bump into people when you walk etc. Your body twists and turns all around when you're fighting or casting spells... it just looks really damn good.
Like BDO's combat is so good it makes me overlook all of its other flaws, Server DeSync, Limited openworld PvP, no true raid roles in PvP (DPS, Tank Healer etc. like it's pseudo roles some can heal but everyone can DPS and there aren't any real tank classes) and Janky naval physics and of course The LONG LONG LONG Grind... but the combat is soo good and the graphics are so good that you don't mind the grind and you truly become invested in your characters. You can spend hours on the character creation screen making a new toon and I find myself constantly going back and tweaking my characters looks/costumes etc quite often. Most of my guildies are the same way.
I feel like the bar for fluid satisfying combat has been truly raised with Black Desert and having satisfying realistic characters and character animations are also very important now.
% chance for debuff to land, rinse and repeat until CC lands, dps down to death
Rinse, repeat. That is all action combat devolves into. You can pretty it up all you want but that is the generic action to all of BDO combat. even GW2. … don’t kid yourself into thinking that because you can move more freely it requires skill. It just places more importance on IFrame movement skills then the same combos begin.
A dodge mechanic similar to GW2 is fine. But dont take too many ideas from BDO. It simply isnt a good MMO
[/quote]
You are incredibly wrong about Black Desert. It's clear you never made it to end game and/or never truly learned how to play your class. I've seen people with crazy high gearscore get rolled by someone who knows how to play their class. I've also experienced it many times myself where I had gear that far surpassed my opponents but they were just so damn good that they repeatedly beat me. This caused me to actually delve deeper in my class and learn all of its animation cancels and the best combos for PvP and how to move and track targets better then wouldn't you know! all of a sudden I did MUCH better! Soon I was the one killing people with higher gear score and levels than me.
You clearly just did not "Get" BDO's combat and didn't take the time to learn or master your class. The ONLY real legitimate complaint you could have is server De-Sync which IS a problem but not one so great as to counter a player's skill. You just have to accept that it can occur and adjust on the fly. In a way it's another variable within the combat that keeps you on your toes.
Sure you might De-Sync into a Berzerker's grab chain but you also just as often de-sync out of it or avoid it entirely.
Black Desert's combat rewarded dedication and skill. Dedication to grind your character and gear to end game specs and the skill to master your class enough to use it well.
Your comments clearly reflect your lack of determination to do either.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/combat-terabdo-or-more-like-gw2/page/5/#post-10786" rel="nofollow">Dissodant wrote:</a></div>
Lol to everyone thinking BDO combat takes skill. BDO is the literally definition of item grind and Luck. RNG is not combat skill.
% chance for debuff to land, rinse and repeat until CC lands, dps down to death
Rinse, repeat. That is all action combat devolves into. You can pretty it up all you want but that is the generic action to all of BDO combat. even GW2. … don’t kid yourself into thinking that because you can move more freely it requires skill. It just places more importance on IFrame movement skills then the same combos begin.
A dodge mechanic similar to GW2 is fine. But dont take too many ideas from BDO. It simply isnt a good MMO
</blockquote>
You are incredibly wrong about Black Desert. It’s clear you never made it to end game and/or never truly learned how to play your class. I’ve seen people with crazy high gearscore get rolled by someone who knows how to play their class. I’ve also experienced it many times myself where I had gear that far surpassed my opponents but they were just so damn good that they repeatedly beat me. This caused me to actually delve deeper in my class and learn all of its animation cancels and the best combos for PvP and how to move and track targets better then wouldn’t you know! all of a sudden I did MUCH better! Soon I was the one killing people with higher gear score and levels than me.
You clearly just did not “Get” BDO’s combat and didn’t take the time to learn or master your class. The ONLY real legitimate complaint you could have is server De-Sync which IS a problem but not one so great as to counter a player’s skill. You just have to accept that it can occur and adjust on the fly. In a way it’s another variable within the combat that keeps you on your toes.
Sure you might De-Sync into a Berzerker’s grab chain but you also just as often de-sync out of it or avoid it entirely.
Black Desert’s combat rewarded dedication and skill. Dedication to grind your character and gear to end game specs and the skill to master your class enough to use it well.
Your comments clearly reflect your lack of determination to do either.
[/quote]
You seem to insinuate that Dissodant hasn't reached end game nor played his class to the fullest, but he does have a point about the cc part. All you are waiting for in BDO combat is to chain a CC, once you do, it's rip in pepperoni for the poor soul that got CC'd. AP in the game is insane, if you have good rng and get that tri+ plus dande weapon and you're going against someone with 15 gear, you will destroy them, like you, I have seen it and experienced it.
I do agree with you that it takes skill, but the skill, animation cancel, is to chain a cc with combos, that's all; iframe dodge until you do though. I also agree with the dedication that game takes. You need time, and a lot of it for the "endgame" content BDO offers.
At this point, a lot of mmo's are just not doing it well, they can't seem to find a balance between pve, pvp, combat, etc. I'm not picky about combat as long as it's fun, doesn't matter it be tab target or action, and the animations are nice and fluid.
I block with the mouse button, swing sword with the other mouse button, dodging in a direction... if your sword lands a hit you hit... if you happen to dodge or block it well you done just that. <strong>Main point=No RNG please.</strong>
so then ...
light attack = click1 (No auto attack please....) combo = only 2 guaranteed hits after that opponent may dodge or counter.
strong attack = click1 + button or hold down click.
Block = click2 (please please please no RNG)
Dodge = moving out of the way.
<strong>How-to-Counter?</strong>
light attack spam = dodge/block/perhaps even something like a shield specific skill that lets you ward off (a weapon or attack), especially with a countermove but must be timed right as the attack would have landed.
strong attack = dodge/block
Perma-blocker = Shield kick/strong attack ...with maybe an item slot that forces players to take extra stamina damage pvp wise...Also the ability to back-stab people :)
Here I satisfy these things ...nothing over the top, nothing flashy, everything can be countered.... Most importantly No RNG. Also please limit AOE's .... I really do not want to see a group of people creating a black hole all huddled up in a tiny space spamming one attack.
I believe this is the key to actual skill based combat that satisfies tab "lock on" and nothing really over the top either. This way it's all about timing the right move and positioning correctly. If you get too greedy about spamming one move well the opposing player shall have the tools to punish through blocking/dodging in the right direction/countering. Take out the RNG and you can have a low-level player beat anything.
<strong> If you think this is too bland please let me know and I'll reference you with some fine examples :) </strong>
My wish for as long as I have been gaming has been to get a combat system like the old text based game Gemstone IV had in a graphics based game. In that game you could call your shots and target parts of the body and actually remove an arm, hand, leg, foot, neck, an eye etc. The same injuries could happen to you. Every mob and player also had blood volume (hit points) and you could cause bleeding and potentially bleed to death. Most all mobs and players had nervous systems and organs that were all attackable. Graphical games have never taken such steps toward realism. Conan was on the right track with decapitations and chopping off arms and legs, but those were typically finishing moves.
Healers were called Empaths and they could take those injuries onto themselves and cure them; which was their primary way to level. Clerics were what they should be; spiritual warriors who's job was to bless things, fight undead and such and bring people back to life. Although, both classes could also hunt mobs and do whatever.
https://youtu.be/hIVnt8SDdrY
Starting at 4:14
Not really. "Hybrid action/tab targetting", "best of both systems", more meaningless phrases without additional context that they intentionally avoid providing (what are the advantages of both that you're keeping? Just telling us there are some is pointless). It's fine (not really, but that is a different topic) if they don't want to go in depth until the design is fully implemented, but at least throw us a bone and compare/contrast the design to any of the hybrid combat systems already out there.
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_S-VXF3UkD6QKf3FiA2U8_AmBi2miPWPtXqDcairep8/edit#heading=h.eiemq3y98zyn">Transcript of the video</a> for those interested.
Havnt played a Tab/-action hybrid yet, but if various skills use diffrent systems i imagine it can be a little distracting and also makes the most positive aspect of action combat, not to need to click/tab a target, comletly useless.
Also i like to train my attack chains and combos even when theres no enemy around - thats another thing only possible with pure action combat.
Another flaw with tab targeting occurs when damaging objectives like parts of the castels/buildings/doors in the praised siege fights.. Noone wants ugly health bars, big enough to easily click on, attached to all the objects hiding the beautiful graphics. :s
With skill keys for switching modes more than anything.
Who knows, my fingers might actually work for the remainder of my life then.
:D
I dont think bodyparts with individual health would make a good gameplay even if it may sound nice at the beginning.
Lets say u have 20 diffrent skills and 10 of them are combat skills like horizontal strike and vertical strike.
The vertical strike will basicaly always hit the enemys head/shoulders while the horizontal strike will always hit the arms/body... in non casual gameplay this will result in only using 1-3 skills that do the most dmg to a particular body part and just remove all other skills from action bar. Because why bother wasting time to get shoulder health to 50% if u get the body to 0% earlier anyway.
This will result in using like 2 attacks and run away for 5-20 or so seconds until those particular attacks are off cd again.
Thats based on the assumption only having to get 1 body part to 0% as i cant imagine fighting without head/leg/whatever.
However if u need to get all or multiple body parts to 0% or another low percentage, why even bother with individual health anyway.
@Rune_Relic
Thats probably the worst idea ive ever seen :')
Just think about all the times u need to push the switch mode button just to enable another skill, depending on mode rotation u will need to click 2-11 times to use a certain skill instead of 1.
This is no console game.
Oh by the way, if u get a programm like AutoHotkey and learn some programming u could make your 3 button idea work with any pc game.. it just wont be fun xd
1. Consider both ESO (which was a semi-tab targeting action game) and Blade and Soul: both of these games had such a terrible animation cancelling system which was discovered by players after release and so ingrained into the coding that it was impossible to get rid of down the road. Fights like these tended to look like the players were having spasm attacks rather than fighting and what was worse was that the PvE dungeon difficulty cap and design for future content was then written to incorporate that into the game officially (example: you had to be able to animation cancel properly to achieve the required DPS in some sections or you wouldn't reach the damage required to pass the mechanics).
2. BDO's idea of fighting mechanics as far as using different key combinations to achieve the desired skill was fun, but the lack of cool downs on CC skills made the fights very much about getting the first CC and perma-locking your opponent. Before so many people figured this out the PvP was fun, but afterwards... my least favourite PvP experience. Let's not even touch on the desynching issues that the game has.
3. I'd like to see defined roles for classes (from one of their interviews I believe they already are doing this, but it's such a big issue in today's MMOs that it has to be mentioned). Homogenised classes are extremely boring because every fight turns out the same. ESO has gone through some various stages of this, at one point you'd see everyone running magic builds, then in a further patch you'd see stamina everywhere, then tanks on every class etc. BDO is one example of that now, everyone stacks AP or evasion builds and it works for pretty much every class. You don't end up needing to consider tactics at all because the meta for everything in terms of gear and builds is the same. I do understand that they've already talked about this regarding classes and sub classes and I think the idea is pretty cool, they just want to be very careful about allowing everyone to do everything on every class as well as everyone else.
4. Last, I decided to touch on it after all... ping/desynch. Proper skill cool downs, CC immunities/diminishing returns etc need to be in place or it's too hard for everyone higher than 100 ping to get involved. Sometimes people with higher ping will get hit with attacks they can't see coming, due to the nature of this fights need to have a window for recovery or it cuts out a massive chunk of the player base from PvP.
The big thing I'd be worried about regarding bringing other game's combat designs into this one is the unexpected bugs/exploits (or whatever name you want to dub them with). Here's a few things that cross my mind regarding PvP in up and coming MMOs:
1. Consider both ESO (which was a semi-tab targeting action game) and Blade and Soul: both of these games had such a terrible animation cancelling system which was discovered by players after release and so ingrained into the coding that it was impossible to get rid of down the road. Fights like these tended to look like the players were having spasm attacks rather than fighting and what was worse was that the PvE dungeon difficulty cap and design for future content was then written to incorporate that into the game officially (example: you had to be able to animation cancel properly to achieve the required DPS in some sections or you wouldn't reach the damage required to pass the mechanics).
2. BDO's idea of fighting mechanics as far as using different key combinations to achieve the desired skill was fun, but the lack of cool downs on CC skills made the fights very much about getting the first CC and perma-locking your opponent. Before so many people figured this out the PvP was fun, but afterwards... my least favourite PvP experience. Let's not even touch on the desynching issues that the game has.
3. I'd like to see defined roles for classes (from one of their interviews I believe they already are doing this, but it's such a big issue in today's MMOs that it has to be mentioned). Homogenised classes are extremely boring because every fight turns out the same. ESO has gone through some various stages of this, at one point you'd see everyone running magic builds, then in a further patch you'd see stamina everywhere, then tanks on every class etc. BDO is one example of that now, everyone stacks AP or evasion builds and it works for pretty much every class. You don't end up needing to consider tactics at all because the meta for everything in terms of gear and builds is the same. I do understand that they've already talked about this regarding classes and sub classes and I think the idea is pretty cool, they just want to be very careful about allowing everyone to do everything on every class as well as everyone else.
4. Last, I decided to touch on it after all... ping/desynch. Proper skill cool downs, CC immunities/diminishing returns etc need to be in place or it's too hard for everyone higher than 100 ping to get involved. Sometimes people with higher ping will get hit with attacks they can't see coming, due to the nature of this fights need to have a window for recovery or it cuts out a massive chunk of the player base from PvP.
1. Consider both ESO (which was a semi-tab targeting action game) and Blade and Soul: both of these games had such a terrible animation cancelling system which was discovered by players after release and so ingrained into the coding that it was impossible to get rid of down the road. Fights like these tended to look like the players were having spasm attacks rather than fighting and what was worse was that the PvE dungeon difficulty cap and design for future content was then written to incorporate that into the game officially (example: you had to be able to animation cancel properly to achieve the required DPS in some sections or you wouldn't reach the damage required to pass the mechanics).
3. I'd like to see defined roles for classes (from one of their interviews I believe they already are doing this, but it's such a big issue in today's MMOs that it has to be mentioned). Homogenised classes are extremely boring because every fight turns out the same. ESO has gone through some various stages of this, at one point you'd see everyone running magic builds, then in a further patch you'd see stamina everywhere, then tanks on every class etc. BDO is one example of that now, everyone stacks AP or evasion builds and it works for pretty much every class. You don't end up needing to consider tactics at all because the meta for everything in terms of gear and builds is the same. I do understand that they've already talked about this regarding classes and sub classes and I think the idea is pretty cool, they just want to be very careful about allowing everyone to do everything on every class as well as everyone else.