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Please don't force us to be victims of PvPers!

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Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    @CylverRayne
    > ~ <. Its not my fought. The most of these debates are just "What-ifs"
    The PvP Engagement  is the "Foundation" of all of these scenarios

    ... But yeah, I don't even read it thoroughly anymore - just a glance tbh. Just feels redundant  
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Yep. Just 3 options instead of 2. I didn't say the 3rd option was much better.
    It's not much better from my perspective.

    In Ashes, the distinction between the PKer and the PvPer will be that thePKer is only killing you because they want to loot you and killing other players is fun.
    The PvPers will be killing you because your PvE actions are having a negative effect on their node.

    The results will be the same. Only difference will be the motivations.
  • Neiloch said:
    Dygz said:
    A player is flagged with corruption as soon as they kill a non-combatant.
    Is there a video or article where a dev is quoted saying this? I've heard/read conflicting reports.
    dunbarth said:
    Regarding how accurate the location of the corrupted players is, the devs mentioned that the more a player successfully hunts down these offenders, the more precise their locations will become.  Could make bounty hunting a pretty interesting aspect of gameplay.

    And as far as how fast corruption grows, I believe it will start with the first kill.  How punishing that first kill will be?  tbd
    If players were marked for bounty on the first kill this could be quite entertaining, even for a PvE purest.
    That would make my dream as an full time bounty hunter to make my money come true ????
    Regarding the first question: i think it was in one of the live streams that the devs stated that you will get a purple(?) flag and gain corruption when you attack a non-combatant. But on which level of this you gain a bounty is not stated yet; at least its not in my memory at the moment ^^
  • Neiloch said:
    Dygz said:
    A player is flagged with corruption as soon as they kill a non-combatant.
    Is there a video or article where a dev is quoted saying this? I've heard/read conflicting reports.
    dunbarth said:
    Regarding how accurate the location of the corrupted players is, the devs mentioned that the more a player successfully hunts down these offenders, the more precise their locations will become.  Could make bounty hunting a pretty interesting aspect of gameplay.

    And as far as how fast corruption grows, I believe it will start with the first kill.  How punishing that first kill will be?  tbd
    If players were marked for bounty on the first kill this could be quite entertaining, even for a PvE purest.
    That would make my dream as an full time bounty hunter to make my money come true ????
    Regarding the first question: i think it was in one of the live streams that the devs stated that you will get a purple(?) flag and gain corruption when you attack a non-combatant. But on which level of this you gain a bounty is not stated yet; at least its not in my memory at the moment ^^
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Kasuto said:
    Regarding the first question: i think it was in one of the live streams that the devs stated that you will get a purple(?) flag and gain corruption when you attack a non-combatant. But on which level of this you gain a bounty is not stated yet; at least its not in my memory at the moment^^
    If you are a non-combatant and attack a non-combatant, you will auto-flag purple.
    If the victim remains a non-combatant and you kill them, you will gain corruption and auto-flag red.
    Bounty hunters can detect people flagged red.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • <soapbox>
    The real challenge in a game supporting PvP, and one that no game has met to date, is to make PvP have a real "cost".  It needs to be the last result, for *individuals*, not the first choice.  

    Cities/states can apply economic or physical force to achieve their goals and I have little to no problem with state-sanctioned zone-on-zone conflict for the greater good of larger zones.  I *do* have issues with games where "I want to grind mobs in this spot, so I'll kill whomever is already here to keep it for myself/my party".  

    In a real-world equivalent, you become an outlaw and the state hunts you down/puts a bounty on you and you're F---ED.  You get killed or imprisoned and there is real incentive to not partake in violently anti-social behavior.

    In games, it's usually just too easy for griefing to occur.  You're "flagged" for an hour or something that is a short duration inconvenience, not something you go out of your way to avoid.

    I desperately look forward to the first game that gets it right.  Hoping AoC can be it.
    </soapbox>
  • <soapbox>
    The real challenge in a game supporting PvP, and one that no game has met to date, is to make PvP have a real "cost".  It needs to be the last result, for *individuals*, not the first choice.  

    Cities/states can apply economic or physical force to achieve their goals and I have little to no problem with state-sanctioned zone-on-zone conflict for the greater good of larger zones.  I *do* have issues with games where "I want to grind mobs in this spot, so I'll kill whomever is already here to keep it for myself/my party".  

    In a real-world equivalent, you become an outlaw and the state hunts you down/puts a bounty on you and you're F---ED.  You get killed or imprisoned and there is real incentive to not partake in violently anti-social behavior.

    In games, it's usually just too easy for griefing to occur.  You're "flagged" for an hour or something that is a short duration inconvenience, not something you go out of your way to avoid.

    I desperately look forward to the first game that gets it right.  Hoping AoC can be it.
    </soapbox>
    I'm right there with you.  I get that this game has some PvP built into its very nature.  Node vs node, sieges, caravans, all that stuff.  PvP is expected there, and I'd probably join in myself.  I don't mind that stuff.  It would be my choice to participate or not.

    What I do mind, is wanting to have a quiet evening of knocking out a few quests, picking some flowers/mining ore/what have you, and then someone comes along and gives me some free swords.  In my spleen.  That I do mind.  Not only because I value my spleen and other various organs, but because someone took the choice of a quiet evening away from me and replaced it with running and screaming.
  • Look People, I am pretty sure that almost no one likes to be bothered by random PVP encounters when they are trying to peacefully farm resources or grind mobs. In some games that I play that is the time that I use to relax, play some favorite music or a movie and happily pick flowers or dig that rare earth.

    But what about the risk vs reward factor? Intrepid Studios wants that factor in every part of the game that includes the chances of reward. Gathering together materials that have value is Reward. It lessens the actual value of the things that you get easily if the Risk is absent.

    Not everyone looks at gathering or grinding mobs and thinks "I am getting materially and personally more RICH every time I put materials into my bank" but you actually are. I don't care if you are just doing it to craft your own gear, a friend's gear or to sell the stuff for coin. You are adding to the game's player held wealth. Because there is risk of being PKed these materials take on even more value. If anyone can just go get them any time they like, without any Risk, then the materials have less value to everyone.

    So the best way to go about this type of game and that type of Risky activity is to mitigate the Risk for yourself as much as possible.

    1. Realize that you are not playing a no Risk-->low Reward game. Do not play as though you are in a risk free environment.
    2. DECIDE BEFORE HAND if you are in the mood to flee from attack, passively "Corruption Bomb" any attackers or fight back. Very important!
    3. NEVER OVER ENCUMBER YOURSELF OR IMPAIR YOUR OWN MOVEMENT SPEED. If there are practical mules remember they will slow your speed. Use mules in groups to be the most safe.
    4. If there are consumable "speed buff" items in game, always save a hot bar slot while alone and keep some ready to go.
    5. Try and establish a safe place to deposit your earnings near wherever you are working. Especially if you are operating alone, bank your inventory often. The more important to you, the more often you should bank your stuff.
    6. Practice "Stranger=Danger!"Keep one eye always on the area around you. Do not trust strangers. Do not be distracted to "Have a friendly Chat" You might be attacked as you are replying to them. Do not be fooled so easily.
    7. Because gather/craft skills are sidelines to basic combat classes, do not neglect your fighting skills. Especially anything that can root, slow, freeze or stun Bad Guys. These might give you and edge and the ability to put distance between you and an attacker. The same goes with recovery from such attacks.
    8. Find a Node and a place that has a strong anti PK theme to it's inhabitants. These Nodes and their zones will be great places for gatherers. You want an area that really discourages RPK players through prevalent Bounty Hunters and strong but friendly organization.
    So, Td;LR: Get your mind set right that there is RISK and prepare yourself for success and bringing home things that are more valuable BECAUSE there is risk involved in getting them.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    You don't consider mobs and NPCs to be risks, so there's not much point in having that discussion with you.

    But, yeah, I pretty much do everything in your list and still get pushed to PvE-only servers.
    Because they don't really work sufficiently against human players.
  • Over 800 posts and people are still complaining about something that we have no idea how it even was going to work. All you have to do is watch the videos and wait till the give us some more hard facts  you can complain to your heart's content 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I think we're mostly just having a discussion and sharing our experiences and points of view.
    The videos aren't going to tell us anything about how well we'lle able to get along on the same servers despite clashing playstyle perspectives.
  • I'm just hoping there will be something to help deter senseless violence.

    By that I mean those situations where you just kill people for the sake of killing people (especially those of low level) for no gain.

    Basically so long as you have a reason for it; whether it's money, loot, war, power, or sweet sweet vengeance. Make sure it's worth whatever penalty you get for killing people and vice versa. Same as real life really.
  • I'm hoping that there is something to encourage senseless violence.

    There is ALWAYS a reason to kill someone in this type of setting. Money, Loot, War, Power, AND sweet sweet Vengeance. 

    I also hope that there IS a penalty. I also hope that there IS incentive to hunt people who kill people. I also hope that there IS incentive to hunt people who hunt people who kill people.

    If you haven't caught the drift yet, I want there to be a real feeling of "life" in the world, so that as I'm wondering around, I can encounter people and decide if killing them or helping them is the best course of action. Without people in the world to do so, the world feels like a solo RPG. 

    Being the victim of a PVPer? No, being the victim of a vast, boring world is worse.
  • Krojak said:
    I'm hoping that there is something to encourage senseless violence.

    There is ALWAYS a reason to kill someone in this type of setting. Money, Loot, War, Power, AND sweet sweet Vengeance. 

    I also hope that there IS a penalty. I also hope that there IS incentive to hunt people who kill people. I also hope that there IS incentive to hunt people who hunt people who kill people.

    If you haven't caught the drift yet, I want there to be a real feeling of "life" in the world, so that as I'm wondering around, I can encounter people and decide if killing them or helping them is the best course of action. Without people in the world to do so, the world feels like a solo RPG. 

    Being the victim of a PVPer? No, being the victim of a vast, boring world is worse.
    I mean my reason is that it fun 
  • Stabby said:

    Please don't force us to be victims of PvPers!

    I get tired of seeing this in every promising MMO. These mmos were likely created because people got bored with PVE games. They WANT them to be PVP because they enjoy that style. And if you dont you should play something else. There are hundreds of solo games you can play where you never have to compete with another player. And very few PVP games for the rest of us to enjoy. We dont have to coexist.

    If you want to enjoy OUR world then you should have to play by our rules.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Krojak said:
    I'm hoping that there is something to encourage senseless violence.

    There is ALWAYS a reason to kill someone in this type of setting. Money, Loot, War, Power, AND sweet sweet Vengeance. 

    I also hope that there IS a penalty. I also hope that there IS incentive to hunt people who kill people. I also hope that there IS incentive to hunt people who hunt people who kill people.

    If you haven't caught the drift yet, I want there to be a real feeling of "life" in the world, so that as I'm wondering around, I can encounter people and decide if killing them or helping them is the best course of action. Without people in the world to do so, the world feels like a solo RPG. 

    Being the victim of a PVPer? No, being the victim of a vast, boring world is worse.
    After years worth of pve safety I feel like trying this out.  Odds are clerics are going to have at least something to defend themselves with, and there's always making it as troublesome as possible.

    PVP has ever been a hot button issue and we'll likely be arguing it right up to release and beyond, but Ita inclusion right off the bat makes me feel like the devs will take care to prevent some of the nastier welcomes in gaming.
  • Dygz said:
    You don't consider mobs and NPCs to be risks, so there's not much point in having that discussion with you.

    But, yeah, I pretty much do everything in your list and still get pushed to PvE-only servers.
    Because they don't really work sufficiently against human players.
    They do work. They just do not work 100% of the time. Only more often than not. As negative as you are, Dygz, I didn't expect any other type of comment from you. The great thing is I didn't write it for you, so it all works out fine. ;)
  • Dygz said:
    You don't consider mobs and NPCs to be risks, so there's not much point in having that discussion with you.

    But, yeah, I pretty much do everything in your list and still get pushed to PvE-only servers.
    Because they don't really work sufficiently against human players.


    On the PVE and mobs thing. Yes they are also risks. This thread isn't really centered on problems with NPCs. It's about PVP.

    Mobs can be quite dangerous until you get their number. They are not always around every single source of materials, though they are ALWAYS around when you farm them.

    If I had my way, attacking players that are engaged in combat while farming mobs would be a double whatever corruption penalty you should get. It is about as cowardly as attacking low level players when you are high level.

  • Dygz said:
    You don't consider mobs and NPCs to be risks, so there's not much point in having that discussion with you.

    But, yeah, I pretty much do everything in your list and still get pushed to PvE-only servers.
    Because they don't really work sufficiently against human players.

    If I had my way, attacking players that are engaged in combat while farming mobs would be a double whatever corruption penalty you should get. It is about as cowardly as attacking low level players when you are high level.

    Some may argue that this is why instanced dungeons are required but I'm not a big fan of instanced worlds. I think you've got a good idea there in  that the corruption could scale due to the activity of the attack. How would that be measured though, I do not know as I'd never have played a game with that kind of penalty before but isn't that what we're striving for with Ashes?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Dygz said:
    You don't consider mobs and NPCs to be risks, so there's not much point in having that discussion with you.

    But, yeah, I pretty much do everything in your list and still get pushed to PvE-only servers.
    Because they don't really work sufficiently against human players.


    On the PVE and mobs thing. Yes they are also risks. This thread isn't really centered on problems with NPCs. It's about PVP.

    Mobs can be quite dangerous until you get their number. They are not always around every single source of materials, though they are ALWAYS around when you farm them.

    If I had my way, attacking players that are engaged in combat while farming mobs would be a double whatever corruption penalty you should get. It is about as cowardly as attacking low level players when you are high level.


    This thread is not centered on problems with NPCs. True. 

    This thread is about not wanting to be unwillingly forced to engage in PvP combat. Inherent in not wanting to be forced to be victims of PvPers is that the desired risk factor tops out below the challenge level of PvP combat with ruthless players. Whether those players are hardcore PvPers or RPKers.

    Risk is not absent - as you admit above.
    Rather, the risk is from NPCs and mobs rather than from direct PvP combat with other players.

  • Dygz said:
     


    This thread is not centered on problems with NPCs. True. 

    This thread is about not wanting to be unwillingly forced to engage in PvP combat. Inherent in not wanting to be forced to be victims of PvPers is that the desired risk factor tops out below the challenge level of PvP combat with ruthless players. Whether those players are hardcore PvPers or RPKers.

    Risk is not absent - as you admit above.
    Rather, the risk is from NPCs and mobs rather than from direct PvP combat with other players.

    The thread is about that. You are right. However since there is no way to avoid the topic of this thread, a little advice is often welcomed by any that want to try a game with OWPVP.

    Some will absolutely not play no matter what if there is OWPVP. Some will not be willing to observe ANY cautions and will try and play like they are in the no PVP zones of a Themepark game. They will be unhappy. Some will play and observe some or all of the advice from myself and others They will both lose less inventory and be ganked less often than otherwise they would be. <--BTW, levels of PK and RPK are not determined yet, nor are mitigating mechanics finished OR tested. That is probably why LOTS of players that dislike PVP are still around and willing to see what really happens without pre judging.

    Players that want to PVP in non random events and walk away at their leisure with a guarantee that enemies from that organized event will let them go, are expecting a bit much in all reality, IMO. I do think that if you leave the sanctioned PVP area your flag should auto assume it's previous settings, showing your previous flag to all not part of the battle. I do hope that they institute that.

    Don't grasp that last part. You are at risk constantly to random PVP players anywhere, at all times, as far as I understand things.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017

    The issue is that hardcore PvPers think that OWPvP means that its OK to kill people as long as it's possible to kill people.


    While PvE adventurers and casual PvPers want conventions -player to player- that more closely reflect the real world in the US: common courtesy to not be attacked while minding one's own business rather than like we're living in a state run by ISIS.

    Each camp is going to try to convince the other that theirs is the way the game should be played.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Dygz said:
    Dygz said:
    You don't consider mobs and NPCs to be risks, so there's not much point in having that discussion with you.

    But, yeah, I pretty much do everything in your list and still get pushed to PvE-only servers.
    Because they don't really work sufficiently against human players.


    On the PVE and mobs thing. Yes they are also risks. This thread isn't really centered on problems with NPCs. It's about PVP.

    Mobs can be quite dangerous until you get their number. They are not always around every single source of materials, though they are ALWAYS around when you farm them.

    If I had my way, attacking players that are engaged in combat while farming mobs would be a double whatever corruption penalty you should get. It is about as cowardly as attacking low level players when you are high level.


    This thread is not centered on problems with NPCs. True. 

    This thread is about not wanting to be unwillingly forced to engage in PvP combat. Inherent in not wanting to be forced to be victims of PvPers is that the desired risk factor tops out below the challenge level of PvP combat with ruthless players. Whether those players are hardcore PvPers or RPKers.

    Risk is not absent - as you admit above.
    Rather, the risk is from NPCs and mobs rather than from direct PvP combat with other players.

    PvP(at least this is the intention) is what keeps the world a malleable state.  That you can be killed is the trade off you take, the tradeof the killers take is that killing non combatants repeatedly eventually makes them a target and will eventually suffer in performance as long as their toon is corrupt.  Even if the player vastly outstrips you in ability or level, Eventually the cost of killing you repeatedly will outweigh the benefits.
  • Dygz said:

    The issue is that hardcore PvPers think that OWPvP means that its OK to kill people as long as it's possible to kill people.


    While PvE adventurers and casual PvPers want conventions -player to player- that more closely reflect the real world in the US: common courtesy to not be attacked while minding one's own business rather than like we're living in a state run by ISIS.

    Each camp is going to try to convince the other that theirs is the way the game should be played.

    What? You're comparing a virtual world with the US? I hope this is a joke or something. This is a virtual world, a video game, You get killed, you come back to life and continue to play. Get over the PvP because it is going to happen. 
  • Dygz said:

    The issue is that hardcore PvPers think that OWPvP means that its OK to kill people as long as it's possible to kill people.


    While PvE adventurers and casual PvPers want conventions -player to player- that more closely reflect the real world in the US: common courtesy to not be attacked while minding one's own business rather than like we're living in a state run by ISIS.

    Each camp is going to try to convince the other that theirs is the way the game should be played.

    What? You're comparing a virtual world with the US? I hope this is a joke or something. This is a virtual world, a video game, You get killed, you come back to life and continue to play. Get over the PvP because it is going to happen. 
    Ever heard the word "analogy"?
  • PvP(at least this is the intention) is what keeps the world a malleable state. That you can be killed is the trade off you take, the tradeof the killers take is that killing non combatants repeatedly eventually makes them a target and will eventually suffer in performance as long as their toon is corrupt.
    Again, PvP conflict is what keeps the world in a malleable state; not player characters killing player characters specifically.
    What causes change is not the number of player characters that have been killed by other player characters.

    Corruption is insignificant and easily avoided.

    Plus, again, PKers aren't going to be the issue. The issue will be hardcore PvPers - even though they consider themselves to be morally superior to PKers. Along the lines of telling vegetarians, "Well, we don't kill animals... we just eat them."
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    This is a virtual world, a video game, You get killed, you come back to life and continue to play. Get over the PvP because it is going to happen. 
    I'm a casual PvPer, so I don't mind a bit of PvP combat - I just want to be in control of when I participate instead of some other player being in control of when I participate.

    Especially when the result can be adding hours of extra time to my play session. It should be up to me to determine the amount of time I play; not other players.
    Other players should not be able to add extra hours to my play session simply because they want 5 minutes of fun.
  • @Dygz

    Again, your definition of meaningful PVP conflict isn't what Intrepid's definition of meaningful PVP conflict is. They include all forms of PVP combat between players.

    Pkers do seem to be the issue for almost everyone except you that I have seen here. Looks like most people that are concerned, are concerned about random players attacking them outside of caravan, siege and guild war combat.

    Now are you going to say that both of those statements are not true and that everyone is wrong except you, again?

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Dygz said:
    This is a virtual world, a video game, You get killed, you come back to life and continue to play. Get over the PvP because it is going to happen. 
    I'm a casual PvPer, so I don't mind a bit of PvP combat - I just want to be in control of when I participate instead of some other player being in control of when I participate.

    Especially when the result can be adding hours of extra time to my play session. It should be up to me to determine the amount of time I play; not other players.
    Other players should not be able to add extra hours to my play session simply because they want 5 minutes of fun.


    Alright. So lets be realistically constructive here. Do this by offering realistic solutions. That means excepting that OWPVP will be a THING. That means that if you willingly participate in caravan, guild war or Node siege PVP you might have a flag with a timer for a period of minutes. It means use your head and figure out what can be done that keeps risk in activities and that allows reward for success.

    First thing that I would do is ask Intrepid if they can have the auto combatant flag not be visible to players(not involved in that PVP scenario) outside of the PVP scenario area.

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