I've been reading and absorbing some of the information from both sides for awhile
I've already given my opinion and stance on this subject a few times. I think the Open world pvp is to crucial to how the game works to forgo it in any shape or fashion. Meaningful pvp is one of the foundations and "3" pillars of AoC
So turning off pvp is not an option simply because of the Node system and how it factors into PvP.
However I feel the PvErs/crafter/explorers have a really fair point in this. Losing materials as a non combatant when someone is killing you. This needs to go. ONLY corrupted players/flagged pvpers should lose materials as that is the whole point of consequences of killing players and meaningful pvp.
If you want to Player Kill all day the ONLY reward for killing NON COMBATANT'S should be nothing but the fact you killed them. Now flagged pvpers (who Opt into pvp in their settings) is a fair pvp perspective of dropping resources. You are conciously asking and agreeing to pvp.
Corrupted players killing non combatants should not be rewarded for slaying people who are exploring the world. They should only be rewarded with engaging players who have flagged themselves with pvp.
This would reinforce the concepts that Intrepid has already put in place for dealing with griefing but still having that open world crucial aspect of pvp. If the player who kills other players who are just minding their business doesn't get ANY positive from it other than satisfaction, and gets the proper corruption, bounty applied. Then the risk is there. The reward is you have killed the other player and your ego is intact.
I hate name dropping but this may be something to look into coming up into Alpha 2. Or earlier
tldr; Non-combatants shouldnt be punished by losing materials. To many incentives and opprotunities to grief players exploring or gathering. Flagged pvpers should drop materials to reinforce the meaningful combat and incentivize pvpers between mutual pvpers to minimize griefing in conjuction with Corruption and bounty system (if it is implemented)
The idea that you shouldn't lose anything if you don't want to flag for PvP simply because you don't like it is absurd, if you die there are penalties no matter what, whether through PvE or PvP. All this would create is risk free resource gathering, if you're going to venture out in the world, you accept the risks that come with. You don't get to CHOOSE whether or not you lose stuff, the players that decide whether or not they want to attack you do.
ALL combatants should risk losing resources/materials etc. corrupted players should lose more since they would have a negative karma so to say.
If people can choose when they want to opt in or out of pvp all it does is create a system where people specifically choose when they want to opt out so they can gather resources and when to opt in to kill people for their resources. It would be a flawed system that would allow players to abuse it for easy gains.
There needs be a mechanism by which "Node A" characters can chase away "Node B" characters from "Node A's" resource points. The game is partly a territorial game. Seems like random PVP to some players, I imagine, but it isn't really random PVP in that case.
Edit: I imagine that such "invader" gatherers or PVE grinders could lose mats when killed but NOT have them go to the killers. That would keep such activity with a sense of danger and risk while not rewarding open PVP beyond legit defense ideals.
PvP-ers won't lose anything, griefer can lose stuff. But who cares, a griefer as fun by making other people not have it.
Like I've mentioned before, between Caravans, node raids and the other legit means to PvP that are seamlessly integrated in the game. Only griefer will want to kill random people.
All of the proposed comments above lead to a PvP system that PvPers will hate. So both PvE and PvP players will hate this game. The best way to avoid this is to just launch with PvE and PvP servers. The PvP "leg" can be substituted with monsters or a million other creative additions. Intrepid is backing themselves into a corner. It will garner a lot of negative feedback in social media if it launches with its current PvP ruleset. All they have to do is pivot their decision and this would be one of the most successful games in history.
Edit: The video the other day mentions no AFK mechanics. This is the only reason BDO has survived this long. Their AFK system is genius on so many levels. It populates their world and eliminates the desire to seek out third party cheating software (for the most part). The devs get to control the built-in "cheats" so that they don't negatively effect the game. And having the players logged in and collecting their daily rewards gives a new found desire to continue playing. I can go on and on about how genius this system is but I feel it will fall on deaf ears. I'm very saddened to hear they are not implementing something like that into Ashes of Creation. With exception of some new node development I have yet to hear anything about player retention. I see a million reasons why players would leave this game and few reasons why they would stay. Everything about this game screams successful launch and then ghost town a few months later.
I think the only PvP/PvE players that will hate this game are the ones that don't actually give it a go. I don't see this game turning into a gank box where every time I go out to gather I get randomly killed by a PvP player. If I am wrong and Ashes does turn into a PvP experience every time I try to do anything I will be shocked first and then disappointed.
In the end separating the servers is not desirable for this game. Everyone knows now, and should know by launch, that this is a PvX game. This is a game for players that like to do both even if they favor PvE over PvP or vice-versa. I don't understand the assumption that players are not developed or mature enough to handle dealing with both.
...to be honest, if the players that are not mature enough to deal with this environment decide they don't want to play the game I am okay with that. If that somehow forces Ashes to go P2W the game would, imo, already be failing for other reasons as well.
Doesn't have to be a gankbox to drive PvEers away from the playing.
Just has to be too PvP-centric. Lack of maturity is with the PvPers who refuse to leave other players alone when they ask to be left alone. And it's those immature players who typically drive players, like myself, who like both to play on PvE-only servers. Mature players should have the agency to choose when they participate in PvP combat and when they don't. As is the case with every other activity in the game.
Doesn't have to be a gankbox to drive PvEers away from the playing.
Just has to be too PvP-centric. Lack of maturity is with the PvPers who refuse to leave other players alone when they ask to be left alone. And it's those immature players who typically drive players, like myself, who like both to play on PvE-only servers. Mature players should have the agency to choose when they participate in PvP combat and when they don't. As is the case with every other activity in the game.
That arguement is only valid if the same is done on both sides. If I ask/warn you to leave an area and you refuse that's on you for hanging around... I'm going to attack/defend what I found/gathered.
Depends on what the area is. Typically, the area I'm in is somewhere in my team's area, away from current attacks on a village/city. Obviously, if I'm trespassing I should leave if I'm not interested in combat.
If you're interested in combat and you're trespassing in my team's territory, go to where the combat is and leave me be if I'm minding my own business.
MMO worlds tend to be large enough to negotiate gathering territory. Easy enough to move to a new location if someone else comes along who wants to farm where I've been farming. That's not the issue. The issue is dealing with those who want to force combat on other players who are not in the mood for PvP combat.
A PvPer attacks someone unprovoked out
picking mushrooms... If the artisan manages to kill the attacker.. said
attacker can drop a random equiped item; randomly, so that they can't
just swap to a rusty sword.. ect..
Now even if the
artisan can't use the item, they can break it down to make a blueprint,
sell it on the market, destroy it, or just sell it back to the PvPer..
haha..
Local Chat: <Shoklen has destroyed Ganker32's Dragon Slayer +12 Sword>
I think that every little thing that helps PVE oriented players to "get something positive" from an unwanted PVP encounter would help to a degree. I an not only talking about material things here. Hopefully an essay isn't required to catch onto my meaning there...
Having watched this thread for a long time, I have come to a conclusion that it is great for discussion. It simply isn't going to go anywhere past discussion though.
In a MMORPG that is PVX, no one can reasonably expect the impossibility that another player is going to interrupt your goals or schedule at some point. It really just all comes down to that fact.
It's a matter of how frequently it occurs... And, again, how quickly we can get back to what we were doing before being interrupted. So, we just have to wait to see how that actually works in Ashes.
It is not really forced PvP at this point. I mean, Steven and the team have already stated this this is a PvX game and there will be no PvE servers. Players can attack you when you are out gathering as long as they are not camping your body or purposely going after you over and over and over again ( which is still up in the air how this will all be handled. ) If you choose to play Ashes you are choosing to participate in PvP because you know it is a possibility.
No one is going to negotiate areas of use unless the guilds/groups are already friends but that is not going to stop another group/guild to jump in.
It's a matter of how frequently it occurs... And, again, how quickly we can get back to what we were doing before being interrupted. So, we just have to wait to see how that actually works in Ashes.
To be fair, it's not solely a matter of how often it occurs. It's also a matter of in what manner it occurs. What privacy features a game has in play. Whether it's just a kill and out of there or not.
As a PvX player myself, I have no objection to PvP oriented gameplay. However, unfortunately, PvP environments come with some of the most obnoxious personalities imaginable. In for example WoW my experiences playing on a PvP enabled server in the past were no more than getting ganked whilst gathering, to subsequently having my corpse be tea-bagged, the ganker to keep on repeatedly tracking me down on the map and killing me again, and again, and again. And if I would log off, at occasions even finding a warming welcome back in-game mail telling me I am an 'n00b', 'rage-quitter', whatever more along those lines.
And things like that are not a one-time occurrence, no. They're also not exclusive to World of Warcraft alone. Having encountered it at numerous occasion in numerous MMO's I have found myself, repeatedly, in favor of PvE-only servers with optional PvP in e.g. battlegrounds.
MMO's which did not offer that? Often I would just quit, and with me, many others. Not because the game is bad. Not because the mechanics in the game is bad. But because of the high level of toxicity in the community.
And that's also one of those things that makes me weary for Ashes of Creation's success. As all of this sounds good... in theory. In practice, however, I foresee the legendary stories to be created as little more than tales on as to how one was killed by 'Y0 Mamma' and to have your corpse desecrated. Or on as to how your caravan was raided by the likes of 'cANALLOVER' and 'Testy Coals', to be called out for being total n00bs for having lost the caravan and to if possible have the gloating continue over some form of private messaging.
No, my experience with the solitary PvP crowd is far from positive. And I have seen it gradually become worse and worse over the past 2 decades of MMO gaming. And I have yet to encounter an MMO that A] remained doing well in general and B] did not have such toxicity being part of their PvP gameplay.
Comments
ALL combatants should risk losing resources/materials etc. corrupted players should lose more since they would have a negative karma so to say.
If people can choose when they want to opt in or out of pvp all it does is create a system where people specifically choose when they want to opt out so they can gather resources and when to opt in to kill people for their resources. It would be a flawed system that would allow players to abuse it for easy gains.
There needs be a mechanism by which "Node A" characters can chase away "Node B" characters from "Node A's" resource points. The game is partly a territorial game. Seems like random PVP to some players, I imagine, but it isn't really random PVP in that case.
Edit: I imagine that such "invader" gatherers or PVE grinders could lose mats when killed but NOT have them go to the killers. That would keep such activity with a sense of danger and risk while not rewarding open PVP beyond legit defense ideals.
PvP-ers have it tougher doing what we want to do. As it stands, PvP-ers can lose GEAR. A few raw mats is NOTHING compared to losing gear.
Like I've mentioned before, between Caravans, node raids and the other legit means to PvP that are seamlessly integrated in the game. Only griefer will want to kill random people.
Edit: The video the other day mentions no AFK mechanics. This is the only reason BDO has survived this long. Their AFK system is genius on so many levels. It populates their world and eliminates the desire to seek out third party cheating software (for the most part). The devs get to control the built-in "cheats" so that they don't negatively effect the game. And having the players logged in and collecting their daily rewards gives a new found desire to continue playing.
I can go on and on about how genius this system is but I feel it will fall on deaf ears. I'm very saddened to hear they are not implementing something like that into Ashes of Creation. With exception of some new node development I have yet to hear anything about player retention. I see a million reasons why players would leave this game and few reasons why they would stay. Everything about this game screams successful launch and then ghost town a few months later.
There's only so many ways we can say that the game is the game.
Let the carebears, actually scartch that I liked the carebears as a kid. Let the Donkeys bray, I won't have any more of it.
In the end separating the servers is not desirable for this game.
Everyone knows now, and should know by launch, that this is a PvX game. This is a game for players that like to do both even if they favor PvE over PvP or vice-versa. I don't understand the assumption that players are not developed or mature enough to handle dealing with both.
...to be honest, if the players that are not mature enough to deal with this environment decide they don't want to play the game I am okay with that. If that somehow forces Ashes to go P2W the game would, imo, already be failing for other reasons as well.
Just has to be too PvP-centric.
Lack of maturity is with the PvPers who refuse to leave other players alone when they ask to be left alone.
And it's those immature players who typically drive players, like myself, who like both to play on PvE-only servers.
Mature players should have the agency to choose when they participate in PvP combat and when they don't. As is the case with every other activity in the game.
Typically, the area I'm in is somewhere in my team's area, away from current attacks on a village/city.
Obviously, if I'm trespassing I should leave if I'm not interested in combat.
If you're interested in combat and you're trespassing in my team's territory, go to where the combat is and leave me be if I'm minding my own business.
MMO worlds tend to be large enough to negotiate gathering territory.
Easy enough to move to a new location if someone else comes along who wants to farm where I've been farming.
That's not the issue.
The issue is dealing with those who want to force combat on other players who are not in the mood for PvP combat.
So, no, it is not the same on both sides.
I think that every little thing that helps PVE oriented players to "get something positive" from an unwanted PVP encounter would help to a degree. I an not only talking about material things here. Hopefully an essay isn't required to catch onto my meaning there...
Having watched this thread for a long time, I have come to a conclusion that it is great for discussion. It simply isn't going to go anywhere past discussion though.
In a MMORPG that is PVX, no one can reasonably expect the impossibility that another player is going to interrupt your goals or schedule at some point. It really just all comes down to that fact.
And, again, how quickly we can get back to what we were doing before being interrupted.
So, we just have to wait to see how that actually works in Ashes.
It is not really forced PvP at this point. I mean, Steven and the team have already stated this this is a PvX game and there will be no PvE servers. Players can attack you when you are out gathering as long as they are not camping your body or purposely going after you over and over and over again ( which is still up in the air how this will all be handled. ) If you choose to play Ashes you are choosing to participate in PvP because you know it is a possibility.
No one is going to negotiate areas of use unless the guilds/groups are already friends but that is not going to stop another group/guild to jump in.
Both PvP and PvE are essential to Ashes.
As a PvX player myself, I have no objection to PvP oriented gameplay. However, unfortunately, PvP environments come with some of the most obnoxious personalities imaginable. In for example WoW my experiences playing on a PvP enabled server in the past were no more than getting ganked whilst gathering, to subsequently having my corpse be tea-bagged, the ganker to keep on repeatedly tracking me down on the map and killing me again, and again, and again. And if I would log off, at occasions even finding a warming welcome back in-game mail telling me I am an 'n00b', 'rage-quitter', whatever more along those lines.
And things like that are not a one-time occurrence, no. They're also not exclusive to World of Warcraft alone. Having encountered it at numerous occasion in numerous MMO's I have found myself, repeatedly, in favor of PvE-only servers with optional PvP in e.g. battlegrounds.
MMO's which did not offer that? Often I would just quit, and with me, many others. Not because the game is bad. Not because the mechanics in the game is bad. But because of the high level of toxicity in the community.
And that's also one of those things that makes me weary for Ashes of Creation's success. As all of this sounds good... in theory. In practice, however, I foresee the legendary stories to be created as little more than tales on as to how one was killed by 'Y0 Mamma' and to have your corpse desecrated. Or on as to how your caravan was raided by the likes of 'cANALLOVER' and 'Testy Coals', to be called out for being total n00bs for having lost the caravan and to if possible have the gloating continue over some form of private messaging.
No, my experience with the solitary PvP crowd is far from positive. And I have seen it gradually become worse and worse over the past 2 decades of MMO gaming. And I have yet to encounter an MMO that A] remained doing well in general and B] did not have such toxicity being part of their PvP gameplay.