People seem to really be underestimating the shear number of jerks in MMO's. One player out ganking probably won't happen often, but you can bet you arse a group of 20 running around ganking all day and not having to worry about bounties because of their group size will be!
This whole discussion reminds me of twinks in WoW. For years they argued that if there were "twink only BG's" they would love that because no one enjoys being a twink and fighting non-twinks. So finally Blizz gave it to them, regular BG's became fun again, and Twinks completely died, because as we knew all along, people that twink are cowards...once the playing field was lvl, they left. You can 100% bet the same will happen in this game, but since it's open world, they will never have a reason to quit. Thousands of players will leave this game because of gankers making logging in not fun, and that is not an over estimate. It's happened before this game, it will happen to this game, and it will happen after this game. Players and game designers alike just never seem to fathom how far many players are willing to go to gank!
Regardless of penalties some people will still gank someone.Those people should be far and few between (hopefully because of the corruption system). My fear is it'll impact random owpvp, small transports (mules, small groups of people, etc), resource/hunting areas.
There are people like me who like the corruption system but are concerned for the state of open world pvp over resources or hunting grounds. We don't go hunting people 15 levels below us, of kill someone wandering down the road, we have found an area rich in resources and want to defend it for ourselves or our guild.
Ashes is stated to have a player driven economy and from dev interviews/streams we know resources are limited... We need the corruption system and death penalties to be balanced so the majority of conflict in these areas result in both parties being combatants.
If we have the majority of people staying green and looting without worrying about being killed the death penalty isn't steep enough (resources lost, exp loss, nearby spawn location) as the punishment for going corrupt because some stubborn person wont take a hint, or warning that you've wandered to far into an area I'm interested in (I'll bring you to half health and stop) is more severe. (random spawn, potential gear loss, exponential exp loss, lengthy process to remove corruption).
I'm not calling for anything to be changed or removed at this point because no one knows how well it's going to work. I just hope people can see and understand both sides to the argument.
Edit: One major concern I have and forgive me if this has been addressed recently. I remember seeing posts saying that if you are corrupt and a green player attacks you they remain green which leaves the corrupted player with no way to defend themselves while they try to remove what corruption they have.
People seem to really be underestimating the shear number of jerks in MMO's. One player out ganking probably won't happen often, but you can bet you arse a group of 20 running around ganking all day and not having to worry about bounties because of their group size will be!
This whole discussion reminds me of twinks in WoW. For years they argued that if there were "twink only BG's" they would love that because no one enjoys being a twink and fighting non-twinks. So finally Blizz gave it to them, regular BG's became fun again, and Twinks completely died, because as we knew all along, people that twink are cowards...once the playing field was lvl, they left. You can 100% bet the same will happen in this game, but since it's open world, they will never have a reason to quit. Thousands of players will leave this game because of gankers making logging in not fun, and that is not an over estimate. It's happened before this game, it will happen to this game, and it will happen after this game. Players and game designers alike just never seem to fathom how far many players are willing to go to gank!
I totally agree with this. Anyone who doesn't think these people are out there and planning their attack on this game is naive. They don't care what consequences or penalty mechanic is in place. As long as there is OWPVP they will come.
They will come and realize what a shit idea they had, the game will treat corrupted players as monsters with bounties on them, given that there are no factions like in wow you might even have groups of players that dedicate their time towards hunting bounties, sure people will still do it but if you dont like that then dont play the game, thats it.
Nobody intentionally designs short or long term failure mechanics into their games. That leads me to believe that IS will watch things pretty closely to achieve the balance of PVP shenanigans that they think is right to sustain income and growth.
If not they will simply fail, swiftly or slowly. They aren't idiots. We have to give them the chance to prove it.
Besides, what else with so many other cool features are you going to play while another game company learns the lesson or proves the exception?
They will come and realize what a shit idea they had, the game will treat corrupted players as monsters with bounties on them, given that there are no factions like in wow you might even have groups of players that dedicate their time towards hunting bounties, sure people will still do it but if you dont like that then dont play the game, thats it.
The thing is, if I didn't care about ruining other players' play sessions, I would totally have a bunch of zombie alts specifically created to be played as monsters who gain as much Corruption as possible - and part of the fun would be seeing how long each zombie alt lasts before being insta-killed by bounty hunter due to decay.
Of course, those of us who determine that Corruption is an insufficient deterrent won't play this game. And then we will see if the remaining population still hits the devs' minimal numbers. If so, I guess it's all good.
People seem to really be underestimating the shear number of jerks in MMO's. One player out ganking probably won't happen often, but you can bet you arse a group of 20 running around ganking all day and not having to worry about bounties because of their group size will be!
Gankers and griefers tend to be solitary creatures. If they were more social and open to cooperating for mutual gain, they would form a guild and work towards more productive goals.
Has anyone ever seen roaming bands of gankers? Perhaps this is a phenomenon I have managed to miss completely?
Has anyone ever seen roaming bands of gankers? Perhaps this is a phenomenon I have managed to miss completely?
A couple of the small server full loot/destruction games like Conan have them. But then again, ganking and destroying others peoples progress while they are offline is the point of those games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLyWjbOrIfA
People seem to really be underestimating the shear number of jerks in MMO's. One player out ganking probably won't happen often, but you can bet you arse a group of 20 running around ganking all day and not having to worry about bounties because of their group size will be!
Gankers and griefers tend to be solitary creatures. If they were more social and open to cooperating for mutual gain, they would form a guild and work towards more productive goals.
Has anyone ever seen roaming bands of gankers? Perhaps this is a phenomenon I have managed to miss completely?
Depends on the types of games you are talking about. I've seen zergs of gankers in WoW because it was allowed on some servers. I've seen MANY zergs in the old UO and later in DF:UW, so yes.
Incidentally, games allowing that, except maybe WoW aren't as popular (wide appeal) and IMO that is why newer versions of OWPVP without limits now manifest in small server sizes. There is a market for limitless OWPVP. It is just pretty small, relatively.
I don't believe that players are going to choose to pay 15$/month (or more) just to log in and kill players that don't fight back. I am sure some will though, as is people, but after being corrupted/hunted dealing with being treated as a monster (would like more clarification) and random spawn locations for death when corrupted, I see a lot of those players going back to a F2P dynamic.
Also, there is no P2W so players will have to earn what they get, having the chance to drop an item knowing you might not be able to get another one would also be a deterrent.
I know there will be those that PvP and PK for thrills and do nothing else, as likely there will be PvE players that gather/craft/farm/MOB-hunt and do no (if possible) PvP.
I highly suggest playing the game before jumping on the "PvE Servers" or "Remove Corruption" bandwagons.
People seem to really be underestimating the shear number of jerks in MMO's. One player out ganking probably won't happen often, but you can bet you arse a group of 20 running around ganking all day and not having to worry about bounties because of their group size will be!
Gankers and griefers tend to be solitary creatures. If they were more social and open to cooperating for mutual gain, they would form a guild and work towards more productive goals.
Has anyone ever seen roaming bands of gankers? Perhaps this is a phenomenon I have managed to miss completely?
As soon as Mordred opened in DAoC, there were guilds formed specifically to roam around a kill levelers. That server basically died within 3 months...
Every time a game allows players to be cowards, a crap ton of them do just that. And then when the game stops it, they leave...but sadly, not before they have already driven off normal players from the game.
I don't believe that players are going to choose to pay 15$/month (or more) just to log in and kill players that don't fight back. I am sure some will though, as is people, but after being corrupted/hunted dealing with being treated as a monster (would like more clarification) and random spawn locations for death when corrupted, I see a lot of those players going back to a F2P dynamic.
Also, there is no P2W so players will have to earn what they get, having the chance to drop an item knowing you might not be able to get another one would also be a deterrent.
I know there will be those that PvP and PK for thrills and do nothing else, as likely there will be PvE players that gather/craft/farm/MOB-hunt and do no (if possible) PvP.
I highly suggest playing the game before jumping on the "PvE Servers" or "Remove Corruption" bandwagons.
People seem to really be underestimating the shear number of jerks in MMO's. One player out ganking probably won't happen often, but you can bet you arse a group of 20 running around ganking all day and not having to worry about bounties because of their group size will be!
Gankers and griefers tend to be solitary creatures. If they were more social and open to cooperating for mutual gain, they would form a guild and work towards more productive goals.
Has anyone ever seen roaming bands of gankers? Perhaps this is a phenomenon I have managed to miss completely?
As soon as Mordred opened in DAoC, there were guilds formed specifically to roam around a kill levelers. That server basically died within 3 months...
Every time a game allows players to be cowards, a crap ton of them do just that. And then when the game stops it, they leave...but sadly, not before they have already driven off normal players from the game.
I'd enjoy it if there were an MMORPG on the market that didn't have high
levels one-shotting low levels, if that is what the issue is. PvP is
much more fun when the opponent has some teeth. Could be fun if a bunch
of lower levels could eventually gather up and dog pile an opponent. I
have yet to see this genre allow that to happen. Just about all games
I've played allow for players to get dunked on by a player's gear level alone.
pve servers = no reason to dont have teleports at all= no siege, no open pvp, no caravans... also why you dont just get all the equipement and gg? Cuz maybe there were vegans that wouldnt like to kill any animal or monster to get it.
i feel senseless to ban content of a game, pvp or pve. It would be stupid if i say the other way round: "hey, i dont want animals with aggro on my servers they disturb me while pvping" its the same issue. I have played a lot of MMOs including Tera, Archeage, BDO, B&S, MU, GW2... If I am killed, i respawn and continue with what I am doing. If they kill me once its their fault. Two is mine since I am not learning (even underleveled). I could for example try to gather on other zones, fight or even ask my guild for help (that makes you interact with other players, the essence of a Massive Multiplayer Online Game.
pve servers = no reason to dont have teleports at all= no siege, no open pvp, no caravans... also why you dont just get all the equipement and gg? Cuz maybe there were vegans that wouldnt like to kill any animal or monster to get it.
Why would PvE servers change teleports?? I think even PvE servers would have sieges and caravans - those activities could be PvE, rather than players killing each others' characters.
I don't play RPGs to PvP. I play RPGs to recreate the experiences we had playing table-top RPGs before online RPGs were a thing. That was co-op vs NPCs. Players didn't compete with each other. Players rarely if ever fought each other. I don't think I've ever played a table-top D&D game where players killed each other or even beat each other unconscious. So, that's what I also prefer when I play MMORPGs. PvP was added for MMORPGs to cater to competitve "gamers", but there are tons of people who prefer just to focus on cooperative PvE or RP or trade/economy or crafting or building.
because the rason for no tps was making caravans. You want to avoid pvp. Why would you do caravans if noone can attack you? why would you hire guards? You might like D&D but this is not D&D bro. PvP was added after pve just because before we had not the resources to implement it. Btw this is a 2020 multi massive online game.
I like PVP myself. Especially PVP that is for "reasons". Wars, feuds, protecting trade and stuff like that.
@olwhys You come across as angry at people that don't like PVP so much. Would you tell why, if that is true? I really am curious why some PVP fans seem angry at PVP haters.
I can not guess his motives, but he does sound intensely against peeps not wanting PvP. I don't think he is angry, I could be wrong, to me it sounds like he is happy with where the game is heading and does not want IS to change their ways to cater to the PvE only portion of the audience. On that point, I would agree.
...I also don't want Ashes to cater only to PvP, I want a true PvX imo.
I have been following the discussion about the PvP and PvE and all the complaining not having pure PvE servers. I have been mostly PvE player since I started playing MMO games. Of course I would love to see pure PvE servers where I don't have to worry about other players killing me BUT, I can also live with the fact that there aren't any and the game will be hybrid of both. In fact, pure PvE can get tedious after a while and getting PvP mixed in, actually gets me excited because I know that I can't just sit at my desk sipping coffee and button smashing to get mobs killed. Instead I have to be alert from possible corrupted or other hostile players heading my way.
So I say, bring up the PvX and let's see how it goes. If I get killed all the time, I know I am a shitty player and I have to improve my gaming.
because the rason for no tps was making caravans. You want to avoid pvp. Why would you do caravans if noone can attack you? why would you hire guards? You might like D&D but this is not D&D bro. PvP was added after pve just because before we had not the resources to implement it. Btw this is a 2020 multi massive online game.
I can avoid caravans and sieges if I want to and go do something else in the game, so I have no problem with those. Battlegrounds are fine because I choose to participate in those or not. Which is significantly different than another player forcing me into an activity I'm not in the mood for.
I would hire guards to protect against PvE hazards, like enemy NPCs and weather/nature catastrophes.
Ashes is not D&D. I don't know yet whether I will like Ashes. If Corruption is not a sufficient deterrent against ganking, I will stop playing the game. And then we will have to see how many other people stop playing and how the devs respond to that.
I'm not aware of an MMORPG that lacked the resources to implement PvP combat. PvP combat is typically an after-thought in MMORPGs because RPGs traditionally are mostly PvE. Which is why the servers with the lowest populations in games with MMORPGs with separate servers for PvP combat and PvE-only are the PvP servers.
Ashes is a 2020 MMORPG with both action combat and tab-target combat, in addition to a Node system which should provide more meaningful motivations for direct PvP combat than we've seen before. So, we have to see how all of the new mechanics and systems work together to create a more entertaining and engaging atmosphere for PvP combat than previous MMORPGs - from the PvEer perspective.
I can not guess his motives, but he does sound intensely against peeps not wanting PvP. I don't think he is angry, I could be wrong, to me it sounds like he is happy with where the game is heading and does not want IS to change their ways to cater to the PvE only portion of the audience. On that point, I would agree.
...I also don't want Ashes to cater only to PvP, I want a true PvX imo.
Cause and effect. If PvP players prey on PVE players, people end up leaving. I think every MMO needs to have both PVE and PVP in order to be successful.
The gaming industry has learned some hard lessons regarding nonconsensual combat. Most of them have incorporated an opt in and opt out function or server or location. There is a reason for that. In the end, Ashes is a business. It needs to keep the lights on and the dev team paid. Otherwise this is all for nothing.
Player retention defines success in this industry. There are ways to achieve that so everyone is happy. This genre is primed for a new "King" right now. The stars are aligned for Ashes to be successful. But they will not achieve that success if there's noone here to play the game. Three things could kill this game.
1. No reward versus effort. 2. Not enough PVE content. 3. PvP ruleset that negatively effects community cohesion.
It's a balancing act that requires constant attention. More importantly, social media can save Intrepid millions in advertisement dollars. How the game looks, its features and how it launches will organically advertise the game for them. With that said, by not appealing to PVE players they are only shooting themselves in the foot. We've been down this road before. Other games have promised and failed to deliver. So in a way, Ashes is already a victim of circumstance. If they don't promote a more PVE friendly atmosphere I suspect they will do a lot more harm than good to the future of this genre.
Comments
There are people like me who like the corruption system but are concerned for the state of open world pvp over resources or hunting grounds. We don't go hunting people 15 levels below us, of kill someone wandering down the road, we have found an area rich in resources and want to defend it for ourselves or our guild.
Ashes is stated to have a player driven economy and from dev interviews/streams we know resources are limited... We need the corruption system and death penalties to be balanced so the majority of conflict in these areas result in both parties being combatants.
If we have the majority of people staying green and looting without worrying about being killed the death penalty isn't steep enough (resources lost, exp loss, nearby spawn location) as the punishment for going corrupt because some stubborn person wont take a hint, or warning that you've wandered to far into an area I'm interested in (I'll bring you to half health and stop) is more severe. (random spawn, potential gear loss, exponential exp loss, lengthy process to remove corruption).
I'm not calling for anything to be changed or removed at this point because no one knows how well it's going to work. I just hope people can see and understand both sides to the argument.
Edit: One major concern I have and forgive me if this has been addressed recently. I remember seeing posts saying that if you are corrupt and a green player attacks you they remain green which leaves the corrupted player with no way to defend themselves while they try to remove what corruption they have.
Nobody intentionally designs short or long term failure mechanics into their games. That leads me to believe that IS will watch things pretty closely to achieve the balance of PVP shenanigans that they think is right to sustain income and growth.
If not they will simply fail, swiftly or slowly. They aren't idiots. We have to give them the chance to prove it.
Besides, what else with so many other cool features are you going to play while another game company learns the lesson or proves the exception?
To be frank we do not have sufficient data or proof to say "Ashes needs to be this way"
or "This is to much, I quit already"
We've discussed pretty much everyrhing we can. Chill.
Wait for A2 so we can actually see whats what. PvE players concerns are valued and we aren't ignoring it
Of course, those of us who determine that Corruption is an insufficient deterrent won't play this game.
And then we will see if the remaining population still hits the devs' minimal numbers. If so, I guess it's all good.
Depends on the types of games you are talking about. I've seen zergs of gankers in WoW because it was allowed on some servers. I've seen MANY zergs in the old UO and later in DF:UW, so yes.
Incidentally, games allowing that, except maybe WoW aren't as popular (wide appeal) and IMO that is why newer versions of OWPVP without limits now manifest in small server sizes. There is a market for limitless OWPVP. It is just pretty small, relatively.
As soon as Mordred opened in DAoC, there were guilds formed specifically to roam around a kill levelers. That server basically died within 3 months...
Every time a game allows players to be cowards, a crap ton of them do just that. And then when the game stops it, they leave...but sadly, not before they have already driven off normal players from the game.
Forum newbies necro. As do OGs checking to see if anything has changed.
I think even PvE servers would have sieges and caravans - those activities could be PvE, rather than players killing each others' characters.
I don't play RPGs to PvP.
I play RPGs to recreate the experiences we had playing table-top RPGs before online RPGs were a thing. That was co-op vs NPCs. Players didn't compete with each other.
Players rarely if ever fought each other. I don't think I've ever played a table-top D&D game where players killed each other or even beat each other unconscious.
So, that's what I also prefer when I play MMORPGs.
PvP was added for MMORPGs to cater to competitve "gamers", but there are tons of people who prefer just to focus on cooperative PvE or RP or trade/economy or crafting or building.
I like PVP myself. Especially PVP that is for "reasons". Wars, feuds, protecting trade and stuff like that.
@olwhys You come across as angry at people that don't like PVP so much. Would you tell why, if that is true? I really am curious why some PVP fans seem angry at PVP haters.
...I also don't want Ashes to cater only to PvP, I want a true PvX imo.
So I say, bring up the PvX and let's see how it goes. If I get killed all the time, I know I am a shitty player and I have to improve my gaming.
I would hire guards to protect against PvE hazards, like enemy NPCs and weather/nature catastrophes.
Ashes is not D&D. I don't know yet whether I will like Ashes. If Corruption is not a sufficient deterrent against ganking, I will stop playing the game.
And then we will have to see how many other people stop playing and how the devs respond to that.
I'm not aware of an MMORPG that lacked the resources to implement PvP combat.
PvP combat is typically an after-thought in MMORPGs because RPGs traditionally are mostly PvE. Which is why the servers with the lowest populations in games with MMORPGs with separate servers for PvP combat and PvE-only are the PvP servers.
Ashes is a 2020 MMORPG with both action combat and tab-target combat, in addition to a Node system which should provide more meaningful motivations for direct PvP combat than we've seen before.
So, we have to see how all of the new mechanics and systems work together to create a more entertaining and engaging atmosphere for PvP combat than previous MMORPGs - from the PvEer perspective.
The gaming industry has learned some hard lessons regarding nonconsensual combat. Most of them have incorporated an opt in and opt out function or server or location. There is a reason for that. In the end, Ashes is a business. It needs to keep the lights on and the dev team paid. Otherwise this is all for nothing.
Player retention defines success in this industry. There are ways to achieve that so everyone is happy. This genre is primed for a new "King" right now. The stars are aligned for Ashes to be successful. But they will not achieve that success if there's noone here to play the game. Three things could kill this game.
1. No reward versus effort.
2. Not enough PVE content.
3. PvP ruleset that negatively effects community cohesion.
It's a balancing act that requires constant attention. More importantly, social media can save Intrepid millions in advertisement dollars. How the game looks, its features and how it launches will organically advertise the game for them. With that said, by not appealing to PVE players they are only shooting themselves in the foot. We've been down this road before. Other games have promised and failed to deliver. So in a way, Ashes is already a victim of circumstance. If they don't promote a more PVE friendly atmosphere I suspect they will do a lot more harm than good to the future of this genre.