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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Race stats and racials creating illusion of choice
I had brought this up in the discord and got some feed back that kind of eased my mind a bit, but I would love to ask a broader audience as well.
How do you think intrepid will manage to avoid illusion of choice when it comes to race and class choices?
A pretty big theme I've found in most rpg games that don't have race locked classes is that certain race/class combinations are inferior, some times to very obvious levels.
For example you want to play an intellect based class that doesn't benefit from strength in anyway, say a mage. You also really want to play a dwarf, but the race stats give minus intellect, and plus strength.
This suddenly doesn't become a hardcore min/max situation, this becomes a very obvious disadvantage at its core, even from a casual perspective.
One idea I have to somewhat counteract this is to use the "dial" concept Steven has brought up when taking about crafting, and when selecting your class and race you are able to adjust your stats slightly, within the races range. Maybe you won't be able to make you dwarfs intellect as high as it would be if you had chosen an elf, but make it so you can move the useless strength to another area still fitting the race such as health.
What are some thoughts you may have to avoid illusion of choice when picking your race?
How do you think intrepid will manage to avoid illusion of choice when it comes to race and class choices?
A pretty big theme I've found in most rpg games that don't have race locked classes is that certain race/class combinations are inferior, some times to very obvious levels.
For example you want to play an intellect based class that doesn't benefit from strength in anyway, say a mage. You also really want to play a dwarf, but the race stats give minus intellect, and plus strength.
This suddenly doesn't become a hardcore min/max situation, this becomes a very obvious disadvantage at its core, even from a casual perspective.
One idea I have to somewhat counteract this is to use the "dial" concept Steven has brought up when taking about crafting, and when selecting your class and race you are able to adjust your stats slightly, within the races range. Maybe you won't be able to make you dwarfs intellect as high as it would be if you had chosen an elf, but make it so you can move the useless strength to another area still fitting the race such as health.
What are some thoughts you may have to avoid illusion of choice when picking your race?
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Tbh Racials just should include stuff that doesnt benefit stats instead should be for like for example
Humans - Better at Crafting fine cloths with enhanced stats per say at least everyone can benefit from it.
This is something that I know will personally effect me since I very much so do not enjoy the races they are including, and am banking on the KS race to be more appealing. If that particular race ends up not being a good pair to my preferred class due to stat weights, I am now in a predicament where I must choose a race I hate looking at to satisfy my inner min/maxer.
So obviously I have selfish reasons to bring this up, but this also looks at people who don't spend their time reading up on the game they are about to play, see you can play any class/race combo, and only find out later in their leveling process they are inefficient, when someone says "why would you ever choose X when you're an X".
This is why I'm curious if there were other ways people could come up with that intrepid could use to minimize this kind of situation from arising.
I'm tired of seeing the same combinations over and over again and also lack of balance between races!
I wanna see dwarf who is an archer, elf who is a tank and orc who is a mage and other cmbinations :P
I don't like giving one race better passives for 2-3 classes and suckingfor others.
I'd rather see no racials at all or racial utilities.
Like I also said somewhere on the forums, racials are so often heavily unbalanced. In one game sometimes it's like:
Race A: +x % dmg buff
Race B: +x% swimming speed
I hope AoC will do it better and give us races equality.
In the end, though, I gotta say I'm all for the direction they're taking which is that your choices have consequences. Lore-wise throughout most that's been written about dwarves/etc it's become a "norm" that dwarves ain't got that kinda magic; more an inherent earth-sense which allows them to shape rock and minerals as they desire. I think of the dwarf in Dragon Age; Dagna. She went into the Circle in order to learn what she could, despite her "disability" in being unable to practice magic. I think it would actually be kinda cool, especially if you're any kind of RPer, to roll this type of character.
But that's just me :-)
That is kind of the core of roleplaying - having a character like Raistlin in Dragonlance, with flaws as well as perks.
Min/Max is really an attempt to max/max.
I typically give my characters flaws. I also typically solo, but when my 40th level character is wearing only starting rags but killing mobs in a Level 40 zone - other players are motivated to initiate a conversation. And my character gets to share some of her backstory.
If you're focused on the game aspects of an MMORPG, you will try to make your characters as uber and efficient as possible.
But, those of us who focus on the roleplaying aspects will also be striving to make our characters have unique roles: A giant rogue, a halfling death knight... etc.
I would not expect a halfling paladin to be as strong as an orc paladin. I would not expect an orc mage to be as intelligent as an elf mage.
In D&D, I would expect an orc mage to play like what in Ashes would be a tank/mage while an elf would play like a mage/mage.
The orc mage would likely be in melee proximity - bashing and soaking physical damage while also using magic. The elf would be a glass cannon, fighting at a distance to keep from being hit by physical damage.
In Ashes, an elf will also be able to be a tank/mage, but the best tank/mage will probably be an orc, while the best mage/mage will probably be an elf. if we have the typical racial bonuses to strength, stamina and intelligence.
Really all depends on what the racial bonuses actually are.
Using magic augmented with taunts??!!?
FOR EXAMPLE:
Orc Mage starts with high attack that is useless to a mage but as you gain gear and lvl's you can build your intelligence to rival a elf mage who started with high intelligence. You would maintain that small race boost of attack boost but that would only be useful if you find gear that needs attack to be used like a staff that has huge magic boost but needs attack at x lvl to equip.
This can also be effected if they simply add more stats that you can alter strength, attack, health, defense, and vitality cam all be interconnected and independent depending on how they are designed.
With 64 archetype combos, plus gear - I don't think we're going to get enough of orc mage/mage v elf mage/mage to really care which is the most powerful.
Both will be viable characters if the players build them well.
Actually, the coolest difference to test will be between a Ren'kai mage and a Vek mage.
Our game is stat oriented, which means that your stats relate to your abilities... your damage, your chance to land something. It's a stat oriented game. The races have different values for stats so some races are going to be probably the meta race when it comes to a certain class. That doesn't mean that classes are restricted to race - you can be any class in any race. So there is no race locking for the classes. We want players to be able to experience the game as the type of class you want to play with the type of race you want to as well. And races are also going to offer certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. Let's say for instance you want to be a Tank. There are different types of Tanks: There are Tanks who are really good against magic or good against physical damage. There are Tanks who are evasion Tanks. There are tanks who are straight damage mitigation Tanks. There are reflect damage Tanks. There are aggro-oriented PvE Tanks. There's a lot of different types of a class. Classes can play specific roles out in the game. So, there may be a meta for what race combination with that class is good for which role you're wanting to go, but at least it leaves a diversity among that specific class with all the different races.
For example:
Orc +3% heath, Ren'Kai +3% melee class, Fighter +3% Damage Applied every LVL.
OR
Orc +3% health, Vek +3% mage class, Mage +3% mana regen apply's only at LVL 1.
But, orcs are the largest race, so will likely make the best tanks.
Elfs may have the intelligence to make the best mages and summoners.
So does that mean dwarves are the best clerics and fighters?
And humans must be the best rogues and rangers?
Bard goes with orc, then?
The Underrealm race makes the best...what?
But, with 64 archetype combos - best doesn't necessarily matter.
Races have augments that can be applied to primary skills - in similar fashion to the secondary archetype augments.
It's not that Orcs will get a damage bonus for every Fighter level.
Rather, if Orcs get a racial physical damage bonus, that's probably going to be more effective as an augment for Shield Bash than as an augment for Stealth or Track or Summon.
Just hoping that secondary skills, armor etc more than make up for any racial 'deficiencies'
It would be sad to see the game fall in the trap of if you want to be a mage other players will play with you have to start with a elf race. From what I read about all races being able to play any class made me think that your race just opens a path for you to build your character in.
Example
Elf Tank is an evasion tank that dodges incoming attacks rather than block as it controls agro.
Dwarf Tank is classic stone wall that takes all damage until enemy is killed or they die.
Orc Tank is more light damage mitigation while disrupting large damage with shield bash.
Human Tank is a deflection tank using skills to block what they can but deflect what they cant take head on.
This idea is what makes me really excited cause the classes can all be played by any race but depending on your play style you would pick the race that fits your class style the best.
@Vachery Draenei, yeah. They got a healing ability as their racial. It's only useful as a self-heal for combat classes because it's instant cast, it doesn't heal enough and has too long of a cooldown to be of any benefit to a healer in a group. If one is relying on that he shouldn't be healing in the first place because he isn't doing his job right. It sucks but you're always gonna find morons like that in every MMO.
Race should not matter how effective you swing your weapon or cast your spells, only the how its done should change. Race should not matter when it comes to PVP. The only combat perks a person should get is one they trained for.
If people PvE mostly then it's mostly a non-issue for them but when PvE crowd want to add combat perks to a race due to RP reasons and wonder why no one wants an elf tank in their group, well it's kinda like. . . I told you to so. . . to leave combat alone PvE'ers.
Crafting perk, node perks, PvE related perks. I really do not want to see every mage be an elf . . . Every orc be a tank. . . etc.
It really hurts variety and limits it, hinders and finally crushes it.
tl;dr: race should not have combat perks, only combat perks you have are the ones you trained for. If your argument for a combat perk is "because orc is bigust" then by that logic the same could be said about having NO "invisible" walls and having NO "safe zones" anywhere.
That is also part of my question are Orcs the biggest and therefore best to Tank? Dwarfs should be comparable strength wise and might tank better. There is also the lore to consider the Orc sub-race Vek are supposed to see the future and more magically inclined would that make them separate stats wise from the other Orc or just a couple extra Int. points above them? The Lore dose not say the Elf race sub-races are magic, that’s just what we feel they should be, so does that mean they can play all classes and the race bonus can me ignored or is the lore unimportant?
It would be sad to see the game fall in the trap of if you want to be a mage other players will play with you have to start with a elf race. From what I read about all races being able to play any class made me think that your race just opens a path for you to build your character in.</blockquote>
We don't have enough details to determine what the race/class metas will be.
A Tank has great strength and soaks damage. An Orc should be the biggest Tank by virtue of it's size. Theoretically, an Orc sould have at least as much strength as a Dwarf... if not more so. And should have more hp and Stamina than a Dwarf due to the arge size of an Orc.
Might be something like Orcs are the best Tanks while Dwarves are the best Fighters.
Or Ren'Kai are the best Tanks and Vek are the best Bards.
While Dünir are the best Fighters and Niküa are the best Clerics.
But, it's not just going to be based on the base stats of the race.
Each race also has a unique racial progression for stats.
So it may be that Ren'Kai have racial stat progression focused on Strength and Stamina.
While Dünir have racial stat progression focused on Strength and Wisdom.
While Vek have racial stat progression focused on Strength and Charisma.
While Py'Rai have racial stat progression focused on Intelligence and Stamina.
Such that Ren'Kai Tanks are best at soaking physical damage, but Dünir Tanks are the best at soaking magical damage and Vek Tanks are best at taunt an Py'Rai Tanks are the best at damage reflection.
It's not really going to be that the devs are designing a fixed meta of, "We have to make sure that Orcs are the best Tanks and Elves are the best mages."
But, each race will have stats and stat progression which conforms with physical/genetic traits as well as cultural philosophies.
And then some players will maximize those attributes to the extremes. That's really where the meta comes in.
But, it won't be as simple as Orcs make the best Tanks. It's probably going to depend on the specific Tank role.
Ren'Kai are the best Tank/Tanks
Dünir are the best Tank/Clerics
Vek are the best Tank/Bards
Py'Rai are the best Tank/Mages
First of all I dont really like if every Race can play every class just so you have "total freedom of choise" some things just dont match. If you ar 3m tall, you dont fit als a rouge. And if you are slim, elegent and swift, you dont realy fit as a Tank. I dont like if every combination is equaly valid just so everyone can play the rediculous combo he/she thinks looks the most stupid.
But much more important: Total freedom of choise negates the meaning of choosing at all! The only thing that gives the Class-choise any meaning, are the benefits and RESTRICIONS that go with it. If your Race influences what class you are able to play players have to carfully decide what Race they want to play.
If all Races have the same Class-choise, and the same (or nearly the same) Stats, the Race is efectivly just a Skin!
All races will be viable with all classes. The only "meta" will be how you tailor that specific class, and sub class, with a particular race.
Race should not matter how effective you swing your weapon or cast your spells, only the how its done should change. Race should not matter when it comes to PVP. The only combat perks a person should get is one they trained for.
If people PvE mostly then it’s mostly a non-issue for them but when PvE crowd want to add combat perks to a race due to RP reasons and wonder why no one wants an elf tank in their group, well it’s kinda like. . . I told you to so. . . to leave combat alone PvE’ers.
Crafting perk, node perks, PvE related perks. I really do not want to see every mage be an elf . . . Every orc be a tank. . . etc.
It really hurts variety and limits it, hinders and finally crushes it.
tl;dr: race should not have combat perks, only combat perks you have are the ones you trained for. If your argument for a combat perk is “because orc is bigust” then by that logic the same could be said about having NO “invisible” walls and having NO “safe zones” anywhere.
</blockquote>
Your point would have more merit, if the races had all the same stats, abilities, etc etc. But, that's not the case.
As @Dygz pointed out, each race will gave varying starting stats, varying stat progression, as well as specific racial abilities. Add to that the skills players will get from joining social and religious organizations, and the possibilities really open up for unique builds. And, that's just of what we know, so far.
Limiting choice, and claiming that it's not really "freedom" because it makes those choices "less impactful" is a false equivalence, imho. The "impact" you speak of doesn't come from what you have. It comes from what you <strong><em>do</em></strong>, with what you have.
Slim, elegant and swift is fine for a Tank if your role is taunting/holding aggro, and you excel at taunting, evading damage and reflecting damage.
"Equally valid" is great for avoiding cookie cutter builds and strategies.
I'd actually prefer to see a team using eccentric tactics. Instead of having a Ren'Kai Tank/Tank taunt the guards and soak the damage, have the Py'Rai Mage/Tank hit the guards with a Fireball augmented by Taunt and then kite the guards while the Cleric/Cleric heals the Mage/Tank. Everyone else rushes past to steal the artifact.
Especially important when we're going to be fighting mobs inhabited by players, rather than just fighting scripted AI.
With the variety of combos the devs are giving us, the player who loves playing Spider Demons won't be able to simply rely on the most efficient method of dealing with a Tank/Tank. She's going to have to come up with something new to deal with the Mage/Tank who is damaging them at range while also locking the SD's target on the Mage/Tank as the Cleric/Cleric heals.
And will have to have a different strategy against the Tank/Summoner, where more minions appear every time the Tank/Summoner gets bashed.
The major difference we have to consider is how people will group in Ashes.
In Ashes, instead of players fanning out to go wherever they wish once they out level a town/zone. Players will continue to stay fairly close to their home city as they work together to level and maintain their node.
Instead of needing cookie cutter builds so that strangers can easily fight well together against scripted mobs, we will find ourselves commonly grouping with the people who frequently work to sustain our node during our daily/weekly play sessions. And we will learn how to synergize off of their builds.
This helps support diverse playstyles.
The orderbound, hardcore elite fighters who wish to be as efficient as possible can still focus their groups around the cookie cutter builds.
The chaotic, casual role players who want to focus on the unique flare of their eccentric builds will also be able to excel at combat.
I'm chaotic, so I would have way more fun hanging out with a Mage/Tank who uses Fireballs to initiate Taunt than a Tank/Tank who uses Shield Bash to initiate Taunt or a Mage/Mage who just uses generic Fireballs with augmented fire damage.
And I'd also have a lot of fun hanging out with a Tank/Summoner who auto-summons more minions whenever she's hit with a crit.
That's my playstyle.
People who love order and conformity and strict rules are going to prefer restrictions over freedom. Which is OK. Since they will still be able to play with people who also enjoy that way of playing. We don't all have to have those restrictions for people to play as if the those restrictions exist.
If you only want to group with Orc Tank/Tanks and Elf Mage/Mages, you can probably do that quite easily.
And than again, i have the opinion, that all games (especially MMOs) live more by their RESTRICIONS than by there endless possibilitys. Its as simple as that: when ever the game says "You need to choose between the one thing or the other" (like favorit race and class) you have to decide what you value more and from that point on take the consequences your choice results in. If there is a thing that goes along with every other thing, there is no consequence in choosing that thing. And by that, the choise was meaningless
It is important to understand that Ashes is revolutionarily different from previous MMORPGs.
"Class" mechanics are very, very, very different from what's been available in previous MMORPGs - especially with the addition of utility abilitiesin addition to combat abilities. Each archetype will have a variety of roles within combat encounters and outside of combat encounters.
Also race mechanics are very, very different.
It's not just "Orc"...
Even a Lev 20 Ren'Kai Fighter will have different stats than a Lev 20 Vek Fighter. And a Lev 20 Kaelar Fighter will have very different stats than a Lev 20 Vaelune Fighter.
They will all have different stats because they will all have different stat progressions. But they can all be viable Tank/Tanks.
Even so, they wil probably play their Tank/Tanks differently - with some being better at Taunts and some doing more damage with Shield Bash. Due to their racial stat progressions.
Previous MMORPGs only have racial starting stats and one or two racial abilities.
Ashes has that plus ongoing racial stat progression. In addition to dual-classing. And Religion progression. And Social progression.
Right. I would say that is a philosophy/playstyle.
Ashes is all about choosing one thing or the other, but how that plays out is significantly different than in previous MMORPGs.
We still have to decide what we value more - but without race/class restrictions, we have more options to consider.
Not simply choosing to be a Tank, but choosing what type of Tank we want to be. Do we want to be a Tank who focuses on soaking damage or do we want to be a Tank who focuses on damage reflection or do we want to be a Tank who focuses on Taunts.
If we want to focus on Taunts, do we want to initiate the Taunt via Shield Bash or do we want to initiate the Taunt via Fireball.
Do I want to maximize the damage of Shield Bash by augmenting it with Shield Bash (Tank/Tank) or do I want to maxiize the damage of my Shield Bash by augmenting it with Summon Minion (Tank/Mage)?
Where Ren’Kai are the best Tank/Tanks and Py’Rai are the best Tank/Mages We will still be choosing favorite race and class combos, but that chose will be based more on how we like to play rather than how we are forced to play due to racist restrictions. And we will have way more options to choose from. We don't have to be stuck with cookie cutter builds.
Again, I get it.
Lawful/Order folk are going to like rules and restrictions.
Chaotic folk are going to like freedom of choice.
I'm Chaotic, so I love having no restrictions on race/class combos.
But, we should expect different playstyles to have different philosphies.
That's OK.
You can still build your characters as if the restrictions are there. And you can choose to only group with like-minded players.
And those of us who don't want the restrictions can build our characters the way we like and also group with like-minded players.