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Race stats and racials creating illusion of choice

I had brought this up in the discord and got some feed back that kind of eased my mind a bit, but I would love to ask a broader audience as well.

How do you think intrepid will manage to avoid illusion of choice when it comes to race and class choices?

A pretty big theme I've found in most rpg games that don't have race locked classes is that certain race/class combinations are inferior, some times to very obvious levels.

For example you want to play an intellect based class that doesn't benefit from strength in anyway, say a mage. You also really want to play a dwarf, but the race stats give minus intellect, and plus strength.

This suddenly doesn't become a hardcore min/max situation, this becomes a very obvious disadvantage at its core, even from a casual perspective.

One idea I have to somewhat counteract this is to use the "dial" concept Steven has brought up when taking about crafting, and when selecting your class and race you are able to adjust your stats slightly, within the races range. Maybe you won't be able to make you dwarfs intellect as high as it would be if you had chosen an elf, but make it so you can move the useless strength to another area still fitting the race such as health.

What are some thoughts you may have to avoid illusion of choice when picking your race?
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    I think not to be rude or nothing but you either choose min/max or cosmetic in mmorpgs would be nice to have both but there will just be a bunch of aurins cruising around if you know what i mean. Racials should only give a slight enhance not enough to give it a noticeable difference in terms of pvp or pve content.

    Tbh Racials just should include stuff that doesnt benefit stats instead should be for like for example

    Humans - Better at Crafting fine cloths with enhanced stats per say at least everyone can benefit from it.
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    I like the way AO did their races. You could be any class in any race but there were definate benefits to choosing one race over the other. so if you wanted to be an Atrox MetaPhysicist you would have a harder time but you could do it. Just give the bonuses to stats weight but not that much weight. Also allow us to work our stats up to a point were we can mitigate some of the downsides the more we advance.
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    @Pumba2988 I don't find it rude at all, that is exactly my concern tho, "you can be any class and any race, but you activated my noobtrap card". Personally I agree and would like to see racials be limited to pure utility, but until they say otherwise it looks like it will carry stat weight as well.

    This is something that I know will personally effect me since I very much so do not enjoy the races they are including, and am banking on the KS race to be more appealing. If that particular race ends up not being a good pair to my preferred class due to stat weights, I am now in a predicament where I must choose a race I hate looking at to satisfy my inner min/maxer.

    So obviously I have selfish reasons to bring this up, but this also looks at people who don't spend their time reading up on the game they are about to play, see you can play any class/race combo, and only find out later in their leveling process they are inefficient, when someone says "why would you ever choose X when you're an X".

    This is why I'm curious if there were other ways people could come up with that intrepid could use to minimize this kind of situation from arising.
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    That's exactly something I wrote in some other topic!
    I'm tired of seeing the same combinations over and over again and also lack of balance between races!
    I wanna see dwarf who is an archer, elf who is a tank and orc who is a mage and other cmbinations :P
    I don't like giving one race better passives for 2-3 classes and suckingfor others.
    I'd rather see no racials at all or racial utilities.
    Like I also said somewhere on the forums, racials are so often heavily unbalanced. In one game sometimes it's like:
    Race A: +x % dmg buff
    Race B: +x% swimming speed
    I hope AoC will do it better and give us races equality.
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    I'm not sure, but I believe in last night's stream they somewhat covered the secondary stats that come from your second class selection as being dial-bound. Not sure how that translates into anything else, but let's say you wanted to play a dwarven mage/mage ... those dials on the secondary mage might just tip you from noobcard to viable.

    In the end, though, I gotta say I'm all for the direction they're taking which is that your choices have consequences. Lore-wise throughout most that's been written about dwarves/etc it's become a "norm" that dwarves ain't got that kinda magic; more an inherent earth-sense which allows them to shape rock and minerals as they desire. I think of the dwarf in Dragon Age; Dagna. She went into the Circle in order to learn what she could, despite her "disability" in being unable to practice magic. I think it would actually be kinda cool, especially if you're any kind of RPer, to roll this type of character.

    But that's just me :-)
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    Um. So....
    That is kind of the core of roleplaying - having a character like Raistlin in Dragonlance, with flaws as well as perks.
    Min/Max is really an attempt to max/max.

    I typically give my characters flaws. I also typically solo, but when my 40th level character is wearing only starting rags but killing mobs in a Level 40 zone - other players are motivated to initiate a conversation. And my character gets to share some of her backstory.

    If you're focused on the game aspects of an MMORPG, you will try to make your characters as uber and efficient as possible.
    But, those of us who focus on the roleplaying aspects will also be striving to make our characters have unique roles: A giant rogue, a halfling death knight... etc.
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    Different races should probably play the roles of the various classes quite differently.
    I would not expect a halfling paladin to be as strong as an orc paladin. I would not expect an orc mage to be as intelligent as an elf mage.

    In D&D, I would expect an orc mage to play like what in Ashes would be a tank/mage while an elf would play like a mage/mage.
    The orc mage would likely be in melee proximity - bashing and soaking physical damage while also using magic. The elf would be a glass cannon, fighting at a distance to keep from being hit by physical damage.

    In Ashes, an elf will also be able to be a tank/mage, but the best tank/mage will probably be an orc, while the best mage/mage will probably be an elf. if we have the typical racial bonuses to strength, stamina and intelligence.
    Really all depends on what the racial bonuses actually are.
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    It's similar to Everquest character selection- you had 15-20 pets to distribute or take away to modify your character to the roll it was going to be- might not be as much as the next race but stleast it let's you get closer to your goal.
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    Huhn!! I might have to make an alt for a Vek Mage/Tank martyr.
    Using magic augmented with taunts??!!?
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    I'm hoping with the dial system that you can make any racial/combo viable. The unknown element is how effective traditional support classes will be solo. Here's hoping there will be a way to do that.
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    I have heard that all the races and classes can be played with each, the only difference being that a dwarf mage would feel different from a elf mage. I took this to mean that at the start of the game race will have a clear effect but as you play you can change key factors to improve in the direction you choose instead of leaning on race to perk your class.

    FOR EXAMPLE:

    Orc Mage starts with high attack that is useless to a mage but as you gain gear and lvl's you can build your intelligence to rival a elf mage who started with high intelligence. You would maintain that small race boost of attack boost but that would only be useful if you find gear that needs attack to be used like a staff that has huge magic boost but needs attack at x lvl to equip.

    This can also be effected if they simply add more stats that you can alter strength, attack, health, defense, and vitality cam all be interconnected and independent depending on how they are designed.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    An orc mage is more likely to be built like a "tank", while an elf mage is more likely to be built like a "glass cannon".
    With 64 archetype combos, plus gear - I don't think we're going to get enough of orc mage/mage v elf mage/mage to really care which is the most powerful.
    Both will be viable characters if the players build them well.
    Actually, the coolest difference to test will be between a Ren'kai mage and a Vek mage.

    https://youtu.be/hIVnt8SDdrY?t=26m mark: 26:00
    Our game is stat oriented, which means that your stats relate to your abilities... your damage, your chance to land something. It's a stat oriented game. The races have different values for stats so some races are going to be probably the meta race when it comes to a certain class. That doesn't mean that classes are restricted to race - you can be any class in any race. So there is no race locking for the classes. We want players to be able to experience the game as the type of class you want to play with the type of race you want to as well. And races are also going to offer certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. Let's say for instance you want to be a Tank. There are different types of Tanks: There are Tanks who are really good against magic or good against physical damage. There are Tanks who are evasion Tanks. There are tanks who are straight damage mitigation Tanks. There are reflect damage Tanks. There are aggro-oriented PvE Tanks. There's a lot of different types of a class. Classes can play specific roles out in the game. So, there may be a meta for what race combination with that class is good for which role you're wanting to go, but at least it leaves a diversity among that specific class with all the different races.
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    This leads me to think that the classes mach up to every races sub-race, all orcs my be the meta for fighter class but the Ren’kai lean more to DPS Fighter/ mage and a Vek leans more to a mage/fighter. From the description of the 4 race 2 sub-race system Meta are set but only as far as helping you get started. I really want to know if Race/ class choose will have a multi stack stat effect on your character as you progress threw the game or is it just a small alteration to a much larger stat build?

    For example:

    Orc +3% heath, Ren'Kai +3% melee class, Fighter +3% Damage Applied every LVL.
    OR
    Orc +3% health, Vek +3% mage class, Mage +3% mana regen apply's only at LVL 1.
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    I don't think the meta are "set".
    But, orcs are the largest race, so will likely make the best tanks.
    Elfs may have the intelligence to make the best mages and summoners.
    So does that mean dwarves are the best clerics and fighters?
    And humans must be the best rogues and rangers?
    Bard goes with orc, then?

    The Underrealm race makes the best...what?

    But, with 64 archetype combos - best doesn't necessarily matter.
    Races have augments that can be applied to primary skills - in similar fashion to the secondary archetype augments.
    It's not that Orcs will get a damage bonus for every Fighter level.

    Rather, if Orcs get a racial physical damage bonus, that's probably going to be more effective as an augment for Shield Bash than as an augment for Stealth or Track or Summon.
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    I share your concerns @HumblePuffin , I never really got into WoW, but the little I did play I found I got judged and booted from a group before I'd been given a chance to actually run in their group, by an idiot because I was attempting to be a healer when I wasn't a draenor(?) well a horned big blue thing, whatever it was.

    Just hoping that secondary skills, armor etc more than make up for any racial 'deficiencies'
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    That is also part of my question are Orcs the biggest and therefore best to Tank? Dwarfs should be comparable strength wise and might tank better. There is also the lore to consider the Orc sub-race Vek are supposed to see the future and more magically inclined would that make them separate stats wise from the other Orc or just a couple extra Int. points above them? The Lore dose not say the Elf race sub-races are magic, that's just what we feel they should be, so does that mean they can play all classes and the race bonus can me ignored or is the lore unimportant?

    It would be sad to see the game fall in the trap of if you want to be a mage other players will play with you have to start with a elf race. From what I read about all races being able to play any class made me think that your race just opens a path for you to build your character in.

    Example

    Elf Tank is an evasion tank that dodges incoming attacks rather than block as it controls agro.

    Dwarf Tank is classic stone wall that takes all damage until enemy is killed or they die.

    Orc Tank is more light damage mitigation while disrupting large damage with shield bash.

    Human Tank is a deflection tank using skills to block what they can but deflect what they cant take head on.

    This idea is what makes me really excited cause the classes can all be played by any race but depending on your play style you would pick the race that fits your class style the best.
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    It's only a problem if the unideal combinations are so bad as to be unplayable. I'm being a Human Fighter / Summoner. It doesn't matter that (I assume) an Orc would make a better fighter or that an Elf would make a better summoner, what matters is whether or not I can still fulfill the role as a Human. At that point, a good way to think about it is like you were putting together a group for a raid: one DPS class might be statistically better than another but the difference is negligible, what counts is personal skill. If the guy playing the meta class doesn't know what he's doing or has an awful rotation then no amount of a stat bonus is gonna carry him.

    @Vachery Draenei, yeah. They got a healing ability as their racial. It's only useful as a self-heal for combat classes because it's instant cast, it doesn't heal enough and has too long of a cooldown to be of any benefit to a healer in a group. If one is relying on that he shouldn't be healing in the first place because he isn't doing his job right. It sucks but you're always gonna find morons like that in every MMO.
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    I would rather race not have combat perks, but perhaps progress/node perks anything else so as long as they leave the combat alone.

    Race should not matter how effective you swing your weapon or cast your spells, only the how its done should change. Race should not matter when it comes to PVP. The only combat perks a person should get is one they trained for.

    If people PvE mostly then it's mostly a non-issue for them but when PvE crowd want to add combat perks to a race due to RP reasons and wonder why no one wants an elf tank in their group, well it's kinda like. . . I told you to so. . . to leave combat alone PvE'ers.

    Crafting perk, node perks, PvE related perks. I really do not want to see every mage be an elf . . . Every orc be a tank. . . etc.

    It really hurts variety and limits it, hinders and finally crushes it.

    tl;dr: race should not have combat perks, only combat perks you have are the ones you trained for. If your argument for a combat perk is "because orc is bigust" then by that logic the same could be said about having NO "invisible" walls and having NO "safe zones" anywhere.
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    <blockquote>blackmohammed wrote:
    That is also part of my question are Orcs the biggest and therefore best to Tank? Dwarfs should be comparable strength wise and might tank better. There is also the lore to consider the Orc sub-race Vek are supposed to see the future and more magically inclined would that make them separate stats wise from the other Orc or just a couple extra Int. points above them? The Lore dose not say the Elf race sub-races are magic, that’s just what we feel they should be, so does that mean they can play all classes and the race bonus can me ignored or is the lore unimportant?

    It would be sad to see the game fall in the trap of if you want to be a mage other players will play with you have to start with a elf race. From what I read about all races being able to play any class made me think that your race just opens a path for you to build your character in.</blockquote>
    We don't have enough details to determine what the race/class metas will be.
    A Tank has great strength and soaks damage. An Orc should be the biggest Tank by virtue of it's size. Theoretically, an Orc sould have at least as much strength as a Dwarf... if not more so. And should have more hp and Stamina than a Dwarf due to the arge size of an Orc.

    Might be something like Orcs are the best Tanks while Dwarves are the best Fighters.
    Or Ren'Kai are the best Tanks and Vek are the best Bards.
    While Dünir are the best Fighters and Niküa are the best Clerics.

    But, it's not just going to be based on the base stats of the race.
    Each race also has a unique racial progression for stats.
    So it may be that Ren'Kai have racial stat progression focused on Strength and Stamina.
    While Dünir have racial stat progression focused on Strength and Wisdom.
    While Vek have racial stat progression focused on Strength and Charisma.
    While Py'Rai have racial stat progression focused on Intelligence and Stamina.

    Such that Ren'Kai Tanks are best at soaking physical damage, but Dünir Tanks are the best at soaking magical damage and Vek Tanks are best at taunt an Py'Rai Tanks are the best at damage reflection.

    It's not really going to be that the devs are designing a fixed meta of, "We have to make sure that Orcs are the best Tanks and Elves are the best mages."
    But, each race will have stats and stat progression which conforms with physical/genetic traits as well as cultural philosophies.
    And then some players will maximize those attributes to the extremes. That's really where the meta comes in.
    But, it won't be as simple as Orcs make the best Tanks. It's probably going to depend on the specific Tank role.
    Ren'Kai are the best Tank/Tanks
    Dünir are the best Tank/Clerics
    Vek are the best Tank/Bards
    Py'Rai are the best Tank/Mages
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    I would actualle Preffere al Class-Lock for races.
    First of all I dont really like if every Race can play every class just so you have "total freedom of choise" some things just dont match. If you ar 3m tall, you dont fit als a rouge. And if you are slim, elegent and swift, you dont realy fit as a Tank. I dont like if every combination is equaly valid just so everyone can play the rediculous combo he/she thinks looks the most stupid.

    But much more important: Total freedom of choise negates the meaning of choosing at all! The only thing that gives the Class-choise any meaning, are the benefits and RESTRICIONS that go with it. If your Race influences what class you are able to play players have to carfully decide what Race they want to play.

    If all Races have the same Class-choise, and the same (or nearly the same) Stats, the Race is efectivly just a Skin!
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    I concur with the ideas that @blackmohammed and @Dygz, put forth.

    All races will be viable with all classes. The only "meta" will be how you tailor that specific class, and sub class, with a particular race.
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    <blockquote><div class="d4p-bbp-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/race-stats-and-racials-creating-illusion-of-choice/page/2/#post-30727">Valenores wrote:</a></div>I would rather race not have combat perks, but perhaps progress/node perks anything else so as long as they leave the combat alone.

    Race should not matter how effective you swing your weapon or cast your spells, only the how its done should change. Race should not matter when it comes to PVP. The only combat perks a person should get is one they trained for.

    If people PvE mostly then it’s mostly a non-issue for them but when PvE crowd want to add combat perks to a race due to RP reasons and wonder why no one wants an elf tank in their group, well it’s kinda like. . . I told you to so. . . to leave combat alone PvE’ers.

    Crafting perk, node perks, PvE related perks. I really do not want to see every mage be an elf . . . Every orc be a tank. . . etc.

    It really hurts variety and limits it, hinders and finally crushes it.

    tl;dr: race should not have combat perks, only combat perks you have are the ones you trained for. If your argument for a combat perk is “because orc is bigust” then by that logic the same could be said about having NO “invisible” walls and having NO “safe zones” anywhere.

    </blockquote>
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    @Archimedis
    Your point would have more merit, if the races had all the same stats, abilities, etc etc. But, that's not the case.

    As @Dygz pointed out, each race will gave varying starting stats, varying stat progression, as well as specific racial abilities. Add to that the skills players will get from joining social and religious organizations, and the possibilities really open up for unique builds. And, that's just of what we know, so far.

    Limiting choice, and claiming that it's not really "freedom" because it makes those choices "less impactful" is a false equivalence, imho. The "impact" you speak of doesn't come from what you have. It comes from what you <strong><em>do</em></strong>, with what you have.
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    3m tall is fine for a Rogue, if you're using magic to dampen the sounds you make and Invis for Stealth. Or using charm/Charisma to mesmerize people into not detecting you.
    Slim, elegant and swift is fine for a Tank if your role is taunting/holding aggro, and you excel at taunting, evading damage and reflecting damage.

    "Equally valid" is great for avoiding cookie cutter builds and strategies.
    I'd actually prefer to see a team using eccentric tactics. Instead of having a Ren'Kai Tank/Tank taunt the guards and soak the damage, have the Py'Rai Mage/Tank hit the guards with a Fireball augmented by Taunt and then kite the guards while the Cleric/Cleric heals the Mage/Tank. Everyone else rushes past to steal the artifact.

    Especially important when we're going to be fighting mobs inhabited by players, rather than just fighting scripted AI.
    With the variety of combos the devs are giving us, the player who loves playing Spider Demons won't be able to simply rely on the most efficient method of dealing with a Tank/Tank. She's going to have to come up with something new to deal with the Mage/Tank who is damaging them at range while also locking the SD's target on the Mage/Tank as the Cleric/Cleric heals.
    And will have to have a different strategy against the Tank/Summoner, where more minions appear every time the Tank/Summoner gets bashed.

    The major difference we have to consider is how people will group in Ashes.
    In Ashes, instead of players fanning out to go wherever they wish once they out level a town/zone. Players will continue to stay fairly close to their home city as they work together to level and maintain their node.

    Instead of needing cookie cutter builds so that strangers can easily fight well together against scripted mobs, we will find ourselves commonly grouping with the people who frequently work to sustain our node during our daily/weekly play sessions. And we will learn how to synergize off of their builds.

    This helps support diverse playstyles.
    The orderbound, hardcore elite fighters who wish to be as efficient as possible can still focus their groups around the cookie cutter builds.
    The chaotic, casual role players who want to focus on the unique flare of their eccentric builds will also be able to excel at combat.

    I'm chaotic, so I would have way more fun hanging out with a Mage/Tank who uses Fireballs to initiate Taunt than a Tank/Tank who uses Shield Bash to initiate Taunt or a Mage/Mage who just uses generic Fireballs with augmented fire damage.
    And I'd also have a lot of fun hanging out with a Tank/Summoner who auto-summons more minions whenever she's hit with a crit.
    That's my playstyle.

    People who love order and conformity and strict rules are going to prefer restrictions over freedom. Which is OK. Since they will still be able to play with people who also enjoy that way of playing. We don't all have to have those restrictions for people to play as if the those restrictions exist.
    If you only want to group with Orc Tank/Tanks and Elf Mage/Mages, you can probably do that quite easily.
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    Starting stats and racial abillitys are a triky point. In all MMOs i played so far they had minor impact on your charakter. At some point they just steped back behind your class skills ans the stats you get from your equipmet. If AoC implements racial Abilitys that are impectfull no matter what state of the game you are in, then i agree. Then your Race whould have an Impact. But in a System where ah lvl 20 Ork-Warrior has (nearly) the same stats and Abilitys as a Human-Warrior of the same lvl, Races are meaningless.

    And than again, i have the opinion, that all games (especially MMOs) live more by their RESTRICIONS than by there endless possibilitys. Its as simple as that: when ever the game says "You need to choose between the one thing or the other" (like favorit race and class) you have to decide what you value more and from that point on take the consequences your choice results in. If there is a thing that goes along with every other thing, there is no consequence in choosing that thing. And by that, the choise was meaningless
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Wottingmadging wrote: It’s only a problem if the unideal combinations are so bad as to be unplayable. I’m being a Human Fighter / Summoner. It doesn’t matter that (I assume) an Orc would make a better fighter or that an Elf would make a better summoner, what matters is whether or not I can still fulfill the role as a Human. At that point, a good way to think about it is like you were putting together a group for a raid: one DPS class might be statistically better than another but the difference is negligible, what counts is personal skill. If the guy playing the meta class doesn’t know what he’s doing or has an awful rotation then no amount of a stat bonus is gonna carry him.
    Non-ideal is an elitist concept - as in elitists may still reject a viable build simply because it's not the most uber and efficient. I think it will be difficult to come across non-viable builds - unless the player is specifically trying to make a non-viable build. We will have many modes of progression. You won't just be a Human Fighter/Summoner. Rather you will either be a Kaelar Fighter/Summoner or a Vaelune Fighter/Summoner. If you want a viable build, you will choose the Aelar race who has the stats and stat progression path most suited to the Fighter archetype. If you want to optimize your Fighter skills, you can go to a Military node. And we can expect that in addition to the city, itself, having quests which will help support your Fighter progression, there will likely also be a military version of a Scholars Academy. which will have military ranks for you to progress through. Or you may decide Vaelune Fighter provides you with all the fighter progression you want, so you seek out a city with a Scholars Academy so that you can better prgress your Summoning abilities. In addition to all of the above, you can also choose the religion that provides the best Fighter or Summoner buffs/blessings. There are too many features to help characters play the role they wish to play to have a non-viable build - if you care about having a viable build.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Archimedis wrote:
    Starting stats and racial abillitys are a triky point. In all MMOs i played so far they had minor impact on your charakter. At some point they just steped back behind your class skills ans the stats you get from your equipmet. If AoC implements racial Abilitys that are impectfull no matter what state of the game you are in, then i agree. Then your Race whould have an Impact. But in a System where ah lvl 20 Ork-Warrior has (nearly) the same stats and Abilitys as a Human-Warrior of the same lvl, Races are meaningless.

    It is important to understand that Ashes is revolutionarily different from previous MMORPGs.
    "Class" mechanics are very, very, very different from what's been available in previous MMORPGs - especially with the addition of utility abilitiesin addition to combat abilities. Each archetype will have a variety of roles within combat encounters and outside of combat encounters.
    Also race mechanics are very, very different.
    It's not just "Orc"...
    Even a Lev 20 Ren'Kai Fighter will have different stats than a Lev 20 Vek Fighter. And a Lev 20 Kaelar Fighter will have very different stats than a Lev 20 Vaelune Fighter.
    They will all have different stats because they will all have different stat progressions. But they can all be viable Tank/Tanks.
    Even so, they wil probably play their Tank/Tanks differently - with some being better at Taunts and some doing more damage with Shield Bash. Due to their racial stat progressions.

    Previous MMORPGs only have racial starting stats and one or two racial abilities.
    Ashes has that plus ongoing racial stat progression. In addition to dual-classing. And Religion progression. And Social progression.

    And than again, i have the opinion, that all games (especially MMOs) live more by their RESTRICIONS than by there endless possibilitys. Its as simple as that: when ever the game says “You need to choose between the one thing or the other” (like favorit race and class) you have to decide what you value more and from that point on take the consequences your choice results in. If there is a thing that goes along with every other thing, there is no consequence in choosing that thing. And by that, the choise was meaningless.

    Right. I would say that is a philosophy/playstyle.
    Ashes is all about choosing one thing or the other, but how that plays out is significantly different than in previous MMORPGs.
    We still have to decide what we value more - but without race/class restrictions, we have more options to consider.
    Not simply choosing to be a Tank, but choosing what type of Tank we want to be. Do we want to be a Tank who focuses on soaking damage or do we want to be a Tank who focuses on damage reflection or do we want to be a Tank who focuses on Taunts.

    If we want to focus on Taunts, do we want to initiate the Taunt via Shield Bash or do we want to initiate the Taunt via Fireball.
    Do I want to maximize the damage of Shield Bash by augmenting it with Shield Bash (Tank/Tank) or do I want to maxiize the damage of my Shield Bash by augmenting it with Summon Minion (Tank/Mage)?
    Where Ren’Kai are the best Tank/Tanks and Py’Rai are the best Tank/Mages We will still be choosing favorite race and class combos, but that chose will be based more on how we like to play rather than how we are forced to play due to racist restrictions. And we will have way more options to choose from. We don't have to be stuck with cookie cutter builds.

    Again, I get it.
    Lawful/Order folk are going to like rules and restrictions.
    Chaotic folk are going to like freedom of choice.

    I'm Chaotic, so I love having no restrictions on race/class combos.
    But, we should expect different playstyles to have different philosphies.
    That's OK.
    You can still build your characters as if the restrictions are there. And you can choose to only group with like-minded players.
    And those of us who don't want the restrictions can build our characters the way we like and also group with like-minded players.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Valenores wrote: I would rather race not have combat perks, but perhaps progress/node perks anything else so as long as they leave the combat alone. Race should not matter how effective you swing your weapon or cast your spells, only the how its done should change. Race should not matter when it comes to PVP. The only combat perks a person should get is one they trained for. If people PvE mostly then it’s mostly a non-issue for them but when PvE crowd want to add combat perks to a race due to RP reasons and wonder why no one wants an elf tank in their group, well it’s kinda like. . . I told you to so. . . to leave combat alone PvE’ers.
    I guess the Ashes term for "combat perks" is racial augments. Racial augments can be applied to primary skills similar to secondary archetype augments. They are really cultural augments, though. Similar to how Japanes martial arts are different from Chinese martial arts, which are different than African martial arts and different from Western martial arts. Stat progression will affect combat as well as non-combat behavior. Race is going to be affected by stats (or is it vice versa?) A Py'Rai is not going to have max strength that matches the max strength of a Ken'Rai. Regardless of training. A Py'Rai likely will be more dexterous at swinging a sword than a Ken'Rai. A Ken'rai likely will be able to land a more crushing blow than a Py'Rai. We should expect a Py'Rai to be a better Swashbuckler than a Ken'Rai and a Ken'Rai to be a better Barbarian than a Py'Rai. Both can be excellent Fighters. And even a Ken'Rai should be a viable Swashbuckler and Py'Rai should be a viable Barbarian. Elitist, hardcore PvPers might not want to group with a Py'Rai Fighter/Rogue. I don't hate grouping with elitist hardcore PvPers. I'm a casual PvPer. I don't care about being uber. I'm primarily an Explorer/Socializer. I group/socialize with people because I like to hang out casually with other players; not because I want to be the most efficient at killing. I hate grouping with elitist, hardcore challenge players. I enjoy grouping with casual PvE adventurers and casual PvPers. One of the great things about the Ashes design is that we will be able to find like-minded people because we will be sticking close to home for the most part, as we work together to level the node. And we will know, among the people who play the same times we do, the avatars we like to group with and the avatars we don't like to group with. A Py'Rai Fighter/Rogue sounds like the quirky kind of race/class combo I would love to group with. As does a Ken'Rai Rogue/Fighter. We aren't all trying to be uber.
    Crafting perk, node perks, PvE related perks. I really do not want to see every mage be an elf . . . Every orc be a tank. . . etc. It really hurts variety and limits it, hinders and finally crushes it. tl;dr: race should not have combat perks, only combat perks you have are the ones you trained for. If your argument for a combat perk is “because orc is bigust” then by that logic the same could be said about having NO “invisible” walls and having NO “safe zones” anywhere.
    I don't know that the racial augments will be associated with Orcs being biggest. Ken'Rai Orcs will have different racial augments than Vek Orcs. We will have to see some examples of racial augments in Ashes. But, racial augments are part of the Ashes design. Stat progression is likely to be determined by physical/mental/cultural/genetic traits for the races -like Strength and Dexterity and Stamina- due to size. Stat progression for Intelligence and Wisdom may be based on culture, rather than genetics, I don't know the specific lore. Stat progression will affect gathering, crafting, and combat abilities...and social and religion progression as well. I have no clue how stat progression being associated with size is supposed to be analogous to zone barriers and PvP combat zones.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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