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Race stats and racials creating illusion of choice

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    I think it's perfectly acceptable for different races to have different starting stats. Because different does not mean unbalanced. Other MMOs have had this before and it's perfectly fine. This is a high Fantasy game and a dwarf should not be inherently as intelligent as an elf, and a scaly-skinned under realm beast race should be stronger than a human. In the end game those minor stat differences will be equalized by gear.  Look, for the purposes of gameplay the difference isn't going to be drastic and it the gives the races so more flavor and makes your choice of race feel impactful. Anyone who feels like they have to pick a certain race because of a 1% stat difference isn't playing for fun anyway.
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    I'll happily accept the need to choose sensibly between a Nikua or Dunir in order to be an effective bard, but I sincerely hope that it won't come to a bard = Elf or gtfo, as even right up to ESO the top guilds only accepted certain race/class combos for progression. I hope AoC allows the player a greater freedom of choice.
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    Well, sounds like those top guilds are elitist. That's the guilds not allowing freedom of choice; not the devs.

    I'm going to have a Vek Rogue/Ranger.
    Because I like the idea of a sneaky Orc.
    I'm not expecting the build to be optimal.
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    I mean the whole point of RPG is to be something you are not, so whatever you pick is because of you like that race/class. I mean people have lost track of why we started to play these games in the first place. It's not to min-max our characters or to only think end game but to have fun with a bunch of people and do something you could never do in real life, to me that the heart of any MMO and why I have so much faith in this game. If you don't see that then maybe you should think why you played MMORPGs.
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    First we have to wait and see how much the racial boni are before we can say anything meaningful. After that we have to see how significant the racial augmentations are to determine if going off-meta is a terrible idea or perfectly viable.

    Personally I'm a fan of min-maxing so I will pick my race mainly based on the stats that supports my class/build. 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    https://youtu.be/hIVnt8SDdrY?t=27m45s mark: 27:45 
    We want players to be able to experience the game as the type of class you want to play with the type of race you want to as well. And races are also going to offer certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. 
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    when racial choice results in benefits and drawbacks, instead of just drawbacks, that is when it all works.  a mage from the big burly race may not have a large a reserve of mana.  But he may be able to take more hits and have more survivability.

    the mage from the mage race might be a glass cannon on the other hand, knocked out with the first flick of a fighter's finger. 
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    I'd say the racial bonuses will be next to non-existent, and will probably only make a difference in neck-to-neck competitions. I'm not going that high, so why bother? I'm just picking what I find the coolest.
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    I hope you're right @Irobot because I've heard before in other MMOs and then it does turn out to be a deal breaker for Progression/high end groups because racials end up being significant especially with DPS. It's all well and good thinking "I'll play whatever I want" but what if one wants to be a part of those groups? I personally would make racials tiered and selectable at creation.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    All the min maxers will pick the race that is the best race for a class, every 1 else just picks the race they want.

    But we dont know how it will be now that underrealm is unlocked and we get a race with beast like attributes. just have to wait and see.
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    I would do the simple thing.

    Does this race give me bonuses to what I want to do?
    Yes? Play it.

    Does this other race look cooler though?
    Yes? Play it.

    It all just depends on what you want.

    You wanna play a Dwarf Rouge? Do it. (On that note I played a Rouge Hill Dwarf in 5e and it was pretty effective actually)

    You want to play a Orc Bard named Jangles the Magnificent? Do it.

    No. Seriously. Someone please do this.
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    Valkeries said:
    All the min maxers will pick the race that is the best race for a class, every 1 else just picks the race they want.

    But we dont know how it will be now that underrealm is unlocked and we get a race with beast like attributes. just have to wait and see.
    That's the way it should be, I mean all races have bones so im happy no matter what I pick ^^
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     to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that Meta.
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     to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that Meta.
    You seem to be awfully worried about levels. But rest easy there is a level cap and people do have work/sleep too so you won't always be behind even if you don't pick the race that adds that .5% dps increase. and Sure some people will no life the game until they max but we'll all hit max level sooner or later. 

    As for race stats I don't think the stats will offer too much of an advantage. 2% at most but probably not even that much. This will also be harder to distinguish as if I remember correctly they don't plan on allowing addons like dmg meters. I say play what you want unless you plan on joining the top tier guilds.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Yeah, I play 8 hours per day, so I'm going to level at a rate that players who only play 2 hours per day or 8 hours per week can't match.

    Race to max level really shouldn't be a thing. If people want to do that they can.
    That still won't help them max their node faster than a couple months.

    For those of us working together to build the city, it really won't matter much who hits max Adventurer level first (unless its a Military Node).
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    It really comes down to this:
    Devs have stated that certain races will have certain bonuses that truly make them more effective at certain classes, but all classes are open to all races.  What we don't have any idea about is which bonuses apply to which class and race combinations.  So we're all purely speculating here.  But...running with it anyway:

    Everyone will need to decide if they'd rather RP a certain race/class combo because they like a certain story, or if they want to go with the absolute best min/max build available.  It's a better option to please more people than simply locking classes to specific races.  It's not an illusion of choice, it's an actual choice with definitive impact on your play style.  

    If you always want to min/max, then your choice is simple.  If really truly want to be that race/class and experience the story the way you want to experience it, then your choice is simple.  If you are hung up between them...you have a meaningful choice to make, and it will stick with you.  Which is more important?  You can't have both benefits in a game that is focusing on meaningful choices and lasting impacts.


    Which brings me to what I hope they'll actually be doing.  The bonuses for the perfect race/class combos would ideally be maybe 5-10% difference in effectiveness from the least-compatible combos.  Anything of middling compatibility could be, say...3-6% less effective than the most compatible.  Enough of a difference to be noticeable, but not enough to be game-breaking for those that chose a more enjoyable character backstory and connection to their character over higher effectiveness in battle.  If they want to be competitive in combat, they'll just have to work harder at perfecting their battle techniques.  You know...like the race/class combo they chose would have to do.  It would work more towards truly experiencing that character's trials in pursuing a path that their family told them would be difficult, right?  If you're going to RP as something that would be more difficult to that character, it should be more difficult for you as well.
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    Right. And, again, they can also swap their secondary archetype to one that takes best advantage of their racial augments and racial stat progression.
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    Maerik85 said:
    I think it's perfectly acceptable for different races to have different starting stats. Because different does not mean unbalanced. Other MMOs have had this before and it's perfectly fine. This is a high Fantasy game and a dwarf should not be inherently as intelligent as an elf, and a scaly-skinned under realm beast race should be stronger than a human. In the end game those minor stat differences will be equalized by gear.  Look, for the purposes of gameplay the difference isn't going to be drastic and it the gives the races so more flavor and makes your choice of race feel impactful. Anyone who feels like they have to pick a certain race because of a 1% stat difference isn't playing for fun anyway.
    Yeah, I agree. As long as the end game difference isn't too imbalanced it shouldn't be an issue. I played ratonga everything in everquest 2. 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    https://youtu.be/hIVnt8SDdrY?t=27m45s   mark: 27:45 
    We want players to be able to experience the game as the type of class you want to play with the type of race you want to as well. And races are also going to offer certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. 
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that Meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that Meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that Meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
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