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Race stats and racials creating illusion of choice

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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
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    Seems to me more likely your class build will matter more than your race. Your race will simply have light augments from what I'm gathering and it shouldn't be enough to make a different race nonviable for said class/role. I typically "break the meta" when I play games. I like to turn that wizard into a tank or that cleric into a psuedomage that does just as much damage.

    I personally prefer Paladin though so if the racial bonuses do end up being substantial, I'll be rather disappointed in the event I would be required to use a particular race for max stats.
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    It's not just light augments.
    It's racial augments used similarly to augments from secondary archetypes in addition to racial stat progression.
    Both of which help to make whatever class a race chooses viable.

    "Max stats" will really depend on what type of Paladin you wish to play. Will you prefer racial progression that helps you fight better or racial progression that helps you heal better or a racial progression that helps you bless/buff better. And that's just three types of Paladin.
    You'll also want to consider whether to be a citizen of a Military node or a citizen of Divine node.
    Etc.
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    I can only go off of what has been said by the Dev's so far which I admit is very limited and makes me question how I will play once the game is released.

    As far as the discussion here goes I can see we have 2 camps: People who have played MMO's and are carrying that stereotype over from past games into this one saying Orcs have to be this or that because of genetics and size even though this is a whole new game and we have no idea what shape or size any race will be.
    People who have played MMO's and dont want to follow the same path this time around preferring to build a character that they will have fun playing as but also has a impact in the game so they can play an Elf Bard/Tank with skills to out preform Orc Tank/Clerics.

    Personally I am looking forward to the second type just so I can build a character I look forward to playing as when my guild goes on a raid or siege.
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    What made the race choices interesting to me is that since there were two sub-choices for the races, one tended to lean towards might and order while the other tended to lean towards spirituality. More so with the orcs and elves than with the humans and dwarves. The races have a refreshing twist and don't follow the usual fantasy stereotypes so the augmentations for your main class's skills could be well enough to make you not feel at a disadvantage.
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    Well, blackmohammed, your description of the situation strangely places me in both camps.

    We can be certain that Ashes is not going to shake things up to the degree that Elves make the best Tank/Tank and Orcs make the best Mage/Mage. Racial stats are going to be somewhat standard but not completely standard.

    At the same time, in Ashes, an Elf Bard/Tank will be viable and an Orc Tank/Cleric will also be viable.
    As will an Elf Tank/Cleric and an Orc Bard/Tank.

    In terms of out performing, if that's what people want to try to do...
    In Ashes, we will be determining if - based on racial augments and racial stat progression- it's better to be a Ken'Rai Orc Tank/Cleric or a Vek Orc Tank/Cleric.
    I'm guessing from the racial descriptions that the Vek will probably make the better Tank/Cleric out of the two Orc races.

    Then we will have to determine -based on racial augments and racial stat progression- whether it's better to be an Empyrean Elf Bard/Tank or a Py'Rai Bard/Tank.
    I'm guessing from the racial descriptions that the Py'Rai will make the better Bard/Tank out of the two Elf races.

    And then we'd have to pit the Vek Tank/Cleric against the Py'Rai Bard/Tank.
    Who out performs whom?
    I'd still want to know what the Religion Progression is like and what their Social Progression is like.
    Is the Vek gaining Cleric perks from a Temple or no?
    Is the Py'Rai gaining Bard perks from a Scholars Academy or no?

    And on top of that...what is their gear like?
    And then how seasoned are each of those players?

    More importantly....
    Why do we care which one outperforms the other as long as both are decent at playing the roles they wish to play?
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    I want there to be racial differences. it good to have dwarf tank/tank and a elf mage/mage. But maybe I want to make a high dex elf tank/rouge and have movement as my defense and attack; or a orc that is a fighter/cleric so I could maybe solo better. the choice is yours but you have to have fun. like they said, they are making 64 classes but don't want just 4 to be used
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    @Dygz you see but we don't have the lore to go off of, in Tolkiens universe Elves could indeed be stronger than any orc ... Fingolfin fought Melkor who is the strongest of all of the Ainur on even grounds till he got too tired to keep up.

    http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Melkor

    http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Fingolfin

    So this thing about Elves being skinny and not strong enough to be stronger than a buff orc is a lie. Elves in that universe used the power of nature and the supernatural to fuel their power sort of.

    This was the stereotype of the first original elves, badass warriors. Idk who made elves a skinny mage scholar push-over from that(thought that's kinda extreme).

    So yes an elf with enough training can overcome anything as it should be lore permitting.
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    <em>Morgoth, though still said to be the "mightiest of all things in this world", was reluctant to face Fingolfin, because despite his might, he alone of the Valar knew fear. But Fingolfin's insults could not be ignored without Morgoth losing face before his captains. As such, he donned black armor, took up a great mace, and emerged from Angband. Fingolfin drew his sword, Ringil, and the duel began. Many times Morgoth attempted to smite Fingolfin, but the Elven King managed to dodge all of Morgoth's blows, and wounded the Dark Lord seven times.

    But after a time, Fingolfin grew weary, and Morgoth beat him to the ground three times. Fingolfin rose up and continued to fight each time, but as Mandos had foretold, no power of the Elves could defeat Morgoth, a Vala. Eventually, Fingolfin stumbled backwards into one of the many pits carved by Morgoth's failed strikes, and Morgoth stepped on the Elven King's neck and killed him. However, Fingolfin's last, desperate stroke managed to cut into Morgoth's heel.

    After defeating him, Morgoth took Fingolfin's body and broke it, intending to feed it to his wolves. But Thorondor, the King of Eagles, swooped down upon Morgoth and with his talons slashed at Morgoth's face. As Morgoth reeled from this new assault, Thorondor retrieved Fingolfin's body and brought it to a mountaintop overlooking Gondolin. Turgon built a cairn over the remains of his father, and Fingon, in sorrow, became High King of the Ñoldor. After Fingolfin's defeat, though he had been defeated by Morgoth, the Orcs never made any type of boastful song to celebrate, nor did the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow was far too great. Morgoth walked with a limp after the duel, and the wounds he received pained him forever.</em>
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    Trying to equalize all races in every avenue of the game makes for a very boring and bland game design. Choice should matter. There's nothing wrong with races having certain advantages, even in combat. The thing is we, as gamers, need to not be obsessed with losing 1% dps because you're not the statistically top race for a given class. I've never been a min/maxer. It doesn't make sense to me. I play to have fun, so if you make that your priority, that's up to you. So play what you want. Besides, if every race has certain advantages they will even themselves out. Maybe you'll have slightly less int as a Vek mage than one of the elves, but that slight disadvantage is made up for in another area. That kind of meaningful, impactful design makes playing a different race an actual different experience, which is far more interesting than just making everyone completely even across the board.
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    Some key points:

    1: I actually didn't say it was just a matter of Strength. We can expect the key attributes of an Orc to be Strength and Stamina. And we can expect the key attributes of an Elf to be Intelligence and Dexterity.

    2: Notice that at the eend of the first paragraph it states that Fingolfin managed to dodge all of Morgoth's blows. That is a show of Dexterity; not Strength. Fingolfin did not use Strength to Block. He used Dexterity to Dodge. This is precisely the way should expect an Elf Fighter to fight differently than an Orc Fighter.

    3: After a time, Fingolfin grew weary. He did not have enough Stamina to continue the fight with Morgoth. Which, again, is what we should expect given that Morgoth is the most uber Orc.

    Sooooo... thank you for providing text which supports my analysis of RPG race stat design.

    It's possible that the devs could make one of the Elf races rival the Orcs in strength, but unlikely. Highly unlikely that they will surpass the orcs in Strength - especially both Strength and Stamina. Even more unlikely that the either of the Pyrian sub-races will make the best Tank/Tank.

    We don't have to agree.
    I'm just guessing. But, it's an educated guess.
    We have plenty of time to see what the devs actually do.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
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    Thanks, Valenores!
    Your post supports what I've been saying.
    Fingolfin relied on Dexterity to Dodge - rather than on Strength to Block.
    And he did not have enough Stamina to defeat Morgoth.
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    This is also drifting off from the main topic "RACE STATS GIVING THE ILLUSION OF CHOICE" the 8 sub races giving stats the match to the 8 classes even if you are having fun puts you in a position were eventually you wont be able to do everything in the game because you chose the wrong race class combo. The race stats would be best if they didn't have to do with combat and instead was more of a charm/luck stat so you can still get benefits from picking a race but you build in the direction that best fits your class.
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    you will be able to do anything in the game without the best race/class build. it still comes down to player skill. you might stumble on to a build that no was using a create a great build. don't let the old rules of the game fool you. create a build that fits your play style. use the race that you want to play with and go for it. you might amaze yourself out what kind of build you could create
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    @blackmohammed
    You're just making unsubstantiated assertions as if having racial stat progression and racial augments that affect combat inherently leads to some race/class combos being unviable.

    In Ashes, there are many, many ways to build in the direction that best fits your class - besides just race.
    Including swapping in a secondary class which benefits from your racial augments and racial stat progression - whenever you decide that makes you character more viable.

    In Ashes, we won't be able to do everything in any case.
    All kinds of reasons we will miss out on content. Because Ashes is not a static game.
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    1. Enabling all races to be all classes
    2. Enabling you to distribute stats how you want (up to an extent)
    3. Making sure each subclass choice modifies your main skills by tangible extent (not only negligible differences)
    4. Making sure that selecting one race gives you different enough spells than selecting another race
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    I am just using what the Devs have already said to illustrate that giving the race a stat bonus that last the length of the game creates an illusion of choice. Sure you can pick a race and class just for fun and build for your self but your always going be be edged out by players that follow a build that boost said race stat.
    What I mean by that is you can play for your self but if you want to best gear or to be at high levels and fight with the best in the game your stat points will have to be applied efficiently allowing you and your team to get the most out of your skills. To avoid this illusion I would like to see the race stat be something outside of direct combat or more of a pro / con that you have better control over when you set your points.
    The illusion its self is in the Devs hands if they want players to be fighting over hunting grounds and leveling speed then the race stats will be a must, if they are looking for more good will between the players then I would look forward to seeing a race stat that will not directly effect the way players level or fight.
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    Haven't read all the posts, but at the beginning there was something like a dwarf mage mentioned.

    I would guess you can play around with racial augments to solve this problem.

    Maybe the dwarfs have augments that let them use strength instead of intelligent for casting. So they don't use arcane knowledge, they use the strength of the earth and fire.

    At the moment I just believe in Steve and the guys to solve this problem to our satisfaction. ;)
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    I am just using what the Devs have already said to illustrate that giving the race a stat bonus that last the length of the game creates an illusion of choice. Sure you can pick a race and class just for fun and build for your self but your always going be be edged out by players that follow a build that boost said race stat.
    What I mean by that is you can play for your self but if you want to best gear or to be at high levels and fight with the best in the game your stat points will have to be applied efficiently allowing you and your team to get the most out of your skills. To avoid this illusion I would like to see the race stat be something outside of direct combat or more of a pro / con that you have better control over when you set your points.
    The illusion its self is in the Devs hands if they want players to be fighting over hunting grounds and leveling speed then the race stats will be a must, if they are looking for more good will between the players then I would look forward to seeing a race stat that will not directly effect the way players level or fight.
    Um. No. What you said is: "even if you are having fun puts you in a position were eventually you wont be able to do everything in the game because you chose the wrong race class combo. The race stats would be best if they didn't have to do with combat and instead was more of a charm/luck stat so you can still get benefits from picking a race but you build in the direction that best fits your class."
    The devs didn't say that.

    You seem to think that Ashes gameplay is all about doing everything and being the best at everything, when actually the fundamental design of Ashes means that players can't do everything.
    Most importantly players can't do everything because the world isn't static - but also choices matter. Making one choice intrinsically cuts off other choices.

    Choosing a race/class combo that is not optimal is fine. What's important is that all the race/class combos are viable enough and flexible enough that players don't find that they have inextricably crippled themselves to the degree that they are forced to abandon that character.

    A player who chooses to be an Elf Tank is not trying to be the best Tank in the game.
    Most likely, they will not be dealing as much damage as an Orc Tank, but we can expect that their Taunts will be as strong as an Orc Tank and probably more powerful than the Taunts of an Orc Tank.
    We can also expect that an Elf Tank won't excel at soaking damage - rather they will excel at being an evasion Tank...using Dexterity to dodge attacks rather than Strength to block attacks.
    Much like Morgoth via Fingolfin...
    But, we have to hope that the Elf player is wise enough to not try to directly out Tank an Orc Tank.

    We should also expect that an Elf tank would choose a secondary archetype better suited to Elf stats, rather than trying to be a Tank/Tank. The player will have an opportunity to change secondary archetypes whenever they wish.

    So... this really is not an problem in Ashes of Creation gameplay.
    There is no illusion of choice. Rather, it is a legitimate choice.
    There is nothing to avoid, especially since racial stat progression trickles down to a variety of other skills and abilities besides combat abilities - like adventurer utility skills.
    The adventurer archetypes are not all about combat.
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    I am just using what the Devs have already said to illustrate that giving the race a stat bonus that last the length of the game creates an illusion of choice. Sure you can pick a race and class just for fun and build for your self but your always going be be edged out by players that follow a build that boost said race stat.
    What I mean by that is you can play for your self but if you want to best gear or to be at high levels and fight with the best in the game your stat points will have to be applied efficiently allowing you and your team to get the most out of your skills. To avoid this illusion I would like to see the race stat be something outside of direct combat or more of a pro / con that you have better control over when you set your points.
    The illusion its self is in the Devs hands if they want players to be fighting over hunting grounds and leveling speed then the race stats will be a must, if they are looking for more good will between the players then I would look forward to seeing a race stat that will not directly effect the way players level or fight.
    Um. No. What you said is: the 8 sub races giving stats the match to the 8 classes even if you are having fun puts you in a position were eventually you wont be able to do everything in the game because you chose the wrong race class combo. The race stats would be best if they didn't have to do with combat and instead was more of a charm/luck stat so you can still get benefits from picking a race but you build in the direction that best fits your class.

    You seem to think that Ashes of Creation is all about everyone being able to do everything or competing with other players to be the best.
    A fundamental aspect of Ashes gameplay is that individual players will not be able to do everything - because Ashes is not a static world. And Ashes is a world of consequence, such that making one choice cuts off other choices and other paths of progression.

    What's import is that all the race/class combos are viable enough that players who pick unusual combos don't feel crippled because it's too difficult to accomplish much of anything.
    But, the Ashes design is flexible enough that players are able to adjust their class choices via the secondary archetype. That secondary archetype can be swapped to one that is better augmented by the racial stat progression.
    So, an Elf Tank/Tank can switch to being an Elf Tank/Mage.

    Also, each archetype has a variety of roles.
    An Elf Tank may not excel at damage output like an Orc Tank, but will probably have stronger Taunts than an Orc Tank. Also, an Elf tank will probably be a better evasion Tank than an Orc Tank... relying on Dexterity to dodge rather than Strength to block.
    Similar to Filgolfin fighting against Morgoth.
    Only we should hope that a player Elf Tank is wise enough not to try to out melee a player OrcTank toe-to-toe.

    There is no illusion of choice. Players have a legitimate choice to play the way they like to play and still have a viable character - if not an optimal character.
    Players who build unusual race/class combos aren't playing to be optimal.
    That doesn't mean they should be crippled - and the Ashes design ensures that their characters won't be irrevocably crippled due to their race/class choice.

    Players who choose an unusual race/class combo won't be competing over leveling speed. And they won't necessarily need to compete over hunting grounds. Mostly they will be cooperating in hunting grounds - especially as they work with fellow citizens

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    That was just a example of how it would give the illusion of choice in the game if that were to happen or do you not understand the topic of this forum???

    The Devs have not said how they would avoid this illusion or even if its something they are worried about at all. We here on this topic are talking about ways to get around the race stats creating and illusion of choice.

    I think if there has to be a race stat then it should deal with none combat stats that way it will not directly affect the leveling of your character. Also having a race stat that is under your control within a limit would also help avoid the illusion giving you the ability to guid your own build without following a meta.
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    I understand the topic.
    I don't agree with the premise.

    The devs have said how it would be avoided... and I've laid that out here.

    I understand what you think. 
    I don't agree with you. And the devs don't agree with you.

    Racial augments and racial stat progression are intended to directly affect leveling - including combat. That, in addition to being able to swap our secondary archetype for one that better suits our racial stat progression and racial augments, means that we have legitimate choices, rather than the illusion of choice.

    The premise that the racial stats create an illusion of choice is patently false.


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    I wonder when they will be working on this specific discussion part, because during that month will be another stream going through that sort of content. At least we will have a lot of time to adapt to whatever decision the devs reach in terms of race stats. I do think (and hope) the differences will be minor as my main concern is one race/build becoming overpowered. But the devs have repeatedly said that they want to avoid that, which is promising.
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    How is that still not an illusion the explanations you gave just lead me to believe there is no way to contend against another player playing a meta build character without following a meta your self.
    The game is ongoing and I like how the Devs have already shown a willingness to edit their original thoughts on the game so as the game develops we might se metas tweaked and adjusted.
    As long as stats can be stacked in combination with race, class, augments from secondary class and so on then any adjustments outside of that will only make you easy to kill.
    The idea that race stats not giving an edge to players building to improve that stat area and level faster than others is just a cheap way of trying to trick others to follow the classic elf mage, orc tank, human cleric team combo.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    You are making a flawed argument that non-optimal equals non-viable.
    And that non-optimal must be inherently undesirable.

    People who want to max their stats to be as uber as possible will have that choice.
    People who want to make characters with unusual race/class combos will have that choice and still have viable characters, rather than crippled character that are easy to kill.

    Easier to kill is relative.
    Being killed 5% of the time is optimal. Difficult to be killed
    Being killed 12% of the time is viable. Easier to be killed.
    Being killed 55% of the time is non-viable/crippled. Easy to be killed.

    Choosing to be viable rather than non-optimal is a legit choice; not an illusion of choice.
    People who choose an non-optimal build are choosing a build that is easier to kill than an optimal build. And accepting that as a viable choice.

    The illusion of choice would be choosing a race/class combo that is later discovered to be so inherently crippled that the player feels compelled to abandon the character and start over from scratch.
    In Ashes, even if an Elf Tank/Tank decides that combo is too difficult to play because the damage they do is Str/Str and their racial stat progression is focused on Int, the player has the choice to swap the secondary class and become a Tank/Mage. Thereby changing the damage they do to Str/Int - which will significantly improve the abilities of their character.
    That is not the illusion of choice. That is legitimate choice.

    I need to be done discussing this with you.
    Have a great day!!
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