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Race stats and racials creating illusion of choice

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    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
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    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
  • Options
    This is focusing to much on the stats by the numbers and not taking in the whole picture.At the same level a few points here and there really is not that much of a difference but that's only for the later end of the game when everyone has a steady foundation and know how to best use the character they built, but in early game when people are not able to fight and its just a struggle to survive your quest if you max your numbers you can level at a more efficient speed. This puts you at an advantage threw out the game as you will always be at a level that others can't match and you can keep this advantage as from the race stat threw the game as long as you are efficient in you leveling.
    "Certain flavors to all the classes - certain racial augments that are available for your primary skills associated with an archetype. "
    This can be interpreted in different ways to some its very simple and just means an Orc is just a different style then a Elf not so far as they cant build in the same way but each unique to them self.  Others see it more complicated that "Flavor" and "Racial Augment" can be the difference between a mage that can take damage cast skills and be built well all around or a glass cannon that is easy to kill but you can never get to them before you die. 
    The flawed argument is thinking that both mage builds are at the same level, the well built all around mage might survive normally but they can never match the leveling speed of a glass cannon that no one can reach without being killed. As that level gap grows the glass cannon will become the meta and other players will start to build that way or help their friends to become that meta.
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    @blackmohammed
    I am happy to see that I was not the only victim of that spam bug.

    The thing you keep missing is that people who want to be the most efficient at combat will choose to maximize the benefits of their stats.

    People who care more about exploring unusual race/class combos will choose to forego maximizing the benefits of their stats. They won't be interested in being the most efficient or leveling faster than other players.

    Everyone as an equal opportunity to max stats.
    Moreover, people like myself who play 8 hours a day also have an advantage to reach max level more quickly than others.

    People will choose to min/max or not - regardless of race augments or race stat progression.
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    Dygz said:
    @blackmohammed

    ...

    People who care more about exploring unusual race/class combos will choose to forego maximizing the benefits of their stats. They won't be interested in being the most efficient or leveling faster than other players.

    ...
    Exactly.  And don't be mistaken...the Intrepid dev team are no dummies.  They're not going to imbalance it to the point of being broken.  They're going to balance it enough to be impactful and meaningful, so that it's a real choice, but they're not going to severely gimp those that want to focus a touch more on the RP in an RPG
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    I mean they've said a bunch of times that it wont really have that much affect. I think the main thing I am most excited for is that the fighting styles will be totally different.
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    You have a dev quote for them saying it won't have that much effect?
    Instead I've heard them say that they want want all of the archetype combos to be viable and fun.

    Racial stat progression will have significantly more effect than just racial starting stats.
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    From my guess races will work similarly to how they do in D&D. Mostly because the team (Steven at least) seem to be fans of it and it would be a easy way to make it so some things are obviously better for some things but things that you might not necessarily think are good can be depending on how you play it.

    For example if you take a Hill Dwarf in 5e and play them as a Rouge you suddenly have a Rouge that could be much harder to kill due to them having more health than what you'd expect.

    So I've seen the term Racial Augment thrown around. And if those would be used the same way that the Augments you get from your secondary class and religion I think that would make a lot of sense from a game design standpoint as well as helping all the races be able to play anything while still being distinctly that race.

    Also I personally think that the races will/should have some passive attributes that will either be constant or activate upon a certain trigger being hit. Such as having Mana being below X grants you bonus mana regen; being below X health grants increased attack speed and/or damage; or you craft X faster than normal; etc.
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    I feel like there are two difference perspectives here. 

    Freedom of Choice 1: You can choose to be any race/class combination. Due to the intricate balancing system, this will not affect your competitive edge over the other races within the same class. 

    So I can be anyone I want without repercussions? In the end, I would be just like everyone else in terms of stats. 

    Freedom of Choice 2: You can choose to be any race/class combination. Races have bonuses that give an edge in certain class. If you play an odd combination, you might be disadvantaged against your peers of another race. 

    So I can be anyone I want, but there will be repercussions. I could try to make up the difference with hard work, but it would be an uphill journey. I could go with what the fates have decided and play to my strengths, or I can be unique in this cruel world. 

    I'm inclined to go with FoC2, but with a certain amount of balancing to ensure that the difference isn't that great. It should be noticeable but insignificant. Best of all, even the worse combination would find themselves benefiting from an odd scenario in the world.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I don't really share either of those perspectives.

    I don't think it will take hard work to have fun playing unusual race/class combos. It may not be as easy to do somethings as it is when min/maxed, but "not as easy" doesn't mean difficult. I'm not competing against other players to be the most uber.

    But, also, I'm expecting the unusual race/class combos to play differently; not necessarily worse.
    I expect that an Orc might go for Tank/Tank and rely on Strength and Stamina to plant themselves solidly and fight similarly to the Incredible Hulk.
    I expect an Elf might go for Tank/Rogue and rely on Taunts and Dexterity, using the terrain to evade damage and fight like the Amazing Spider-Man.
    Sure, if that Elf tried to go for Tank/Tank and fight like the Hulk, they would probably have a difficult time.
    We do have that choice, but the concept is really more about about allowing for different racial flavors of each archetype rather than every race that chooses Tank has to be a Tank/Tank and finding out that Elves suck at being Tank/Tanks, but now the only option is to roll a new character.

    If the Elf was stuck being a Tank/Tank with no option to switch to Tank/Rogue... That would be the illusion of choice because an Elf Tank/Tank is likely to be the least viable of the Tank hybrids and will probably be the closest to crippled.
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    ya sorry for the spam.

    I am not missing the fact combat specialist will play different than explorers, that's actually the illusion i am talking about.How are you supposed to enjoy you time in the game if you can't level at the same speed as others? The combat specialist will explore everything before you can get there.

    I am not saying the Dev's are dumb im just saying that over time if there is not a way to balance the leveling speed the gap will just keep growing and the combat specialist can reach places others can't,

    I don't think being stuck as a efl tank/tank without a option to switch to tank/ rogue is illusion, that's just a denial of choice. The illusion is that on the face you can choice any class you want but only if you follow the Meta of your race can you really get the most out of your experience.

    Also I am not a full time gamer I only play 8+ hours a day when I have time, most of the time I only play 1 or 2 hours and that's not even regular so don't make me seem like some one who only wants to beat other players in the game I really want to enjoy my self when I play. 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Why would I care about leveling at the same speed as others?

    What I care about is playing the roles I like to play the way I want to play them.
    And I like to play my characters differently than the norm.

    I don't know why I'd care who explores what first, but there is no away a combat specialist will explore everything before I do because I'll be exploring while they are fighting.

    Also, why are you thinking that combat will be the quickest way to level a character?
    Non-combat utilities also level characters in the Adventurer progression path, but Adventurer is not the only path of character progression.

    Most out of your experience depends on what your objectives are.
    For me, there is more value in being recognized as quirky and unique than there is in being uber or server first. That is a legitimate choice I get to make - as long as I'm not stuck with a character build that is so broken that I end up dying in combat 50% of the time or more- not an illusion of choice.

    If my viable but non-optimal character build is playing 8 hours a day and the meta build is only playing 2 hours a day, which one do you really think is more likely to level faster??

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    You should care how fast you and others level even if you don't want to keep up with them leveling is a part of the game and opens up more of it.

    Being the first to explore often comes with benefits that other players might not get loot, monsters, and events can change from when the first explorers get there. Saying "there is no away a combat specialist will explore everything before I do because I'll be exploring while they are fighting." is also warped as fighting will allow them to explore even better than most as it will point them in the direction they should go,

    I say combat will be the fasts way to level as far as race stats and class stats leading your combat leveling progression. Non-combat utility leveling is not really a part of the race stats crating an illusion of choice, 

    You personally are allowed your choice in character as I am not playing for you, however again that's not the illusion of choice we are talking about. If you play 8 hours with a non-meta build you will not level as fast as a Meta player playing 2 hours. More time dose not mean faster progress, non- meta will waste stat points and not be able to kill higher level mobs and bosses at the same speed as Meta players. At the higher levels this becomes more and more obvious. Do you think playing with your stats spread how you feel will let you play at the same level as the same class with stats optimized for that class???
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    First and foremost, I explore as much of the world as possible. Leveling is often just a means to allow me to survive longer while I'm exploring high level zones.

    I don't feel a need to discover places first. I'm not competing against anybody else.
    I don't care about "playing at the same level" as anybody else. I care about being able to play my role the way I want to play it.
    If people are only traveling where they are directed to fight, they can't keep up with my exploration. First thing I do when I level is explore as far as possible until I'm in an area with mobs that con as skulls. Then I do enough quests to take me to the next level.

    The fastest way to level is not through combat, rather it's through completing quests.
    Non-meta race-class builds will not be so broken that the meta builds are more than 4x more efficient. 

    But, I don't see a reason to try to play at the same level as other people in my class. I care about being able to play my role well. And my role is never focused on combat.



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    There are other things to take in consideration as well. In most MMORPG's smaller characters are harder to click on in pvp because of their smaller hitboxes and thus super small glass-cannon mages have an advantage over larger glass-cannon mages... I would like to see a lot of different classes having a lot of different appearances and not only little elves as mages or huge orcs as tanks. Ofcourse we don't know how the combat mechanics will be yet but I think it is something to keep in mind as this is not easy to fix. 
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    GaFl4Ever said:
    There are other things to take in consideration as well. In most MMORPG's smaller characters are harder to click on in pvp because of their smaller hitboxes and thus super small glass-cannon mages have an advantage over larger glass-cannon mages... I would like to see a lot of different classes having a lot of different appearances and not only little elves as mages or huge orcs as tanks. Ofcourse we don't know how the combat mechanics will be yet but I think it is something to keep in mind as this is not easy to fix. 

    Hmmm, this has me thinking. What's to stop certain guilds from utilizing human shields? Non combatant players surrounding the combatants? 

    I'll guessing tab targeting should be able to fix that, but it'll definitely screw up click targeting. 

    Back to the OP. 

    Players will end up playing the game they wanna play. Optimizers will choose the most optimal races even if the advantage is minimal. Role players will play their character regardless of the penalty or the inappropriateness of the class/race combo. They might derive joy from playing out their own drizzt do'urden fantasy. A dark elf ranger,  An orge mage, a Halfling tank. 

    So... I'm not sure how much of a problem the illusion of choice will be as long as the advantage/disadvantage is not one that's too great. 
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    If you just play the game the way you feel like and dont care about stats and progresion of quest then there is no choice for you as you were going to pick what you wanted even before learning about the game.
     For those that want to play the game based on what the Devs are creating classes, stats, and race become very important and are looked into with more depth.
    The facts still remain that there is an illusion of choice if they apply a race stat threw out the game, if there is no race stat then the race is not going to matter as much and the choice becomes more open for people to build classes however they feel.
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    Uh, nope.
    We would need to know what races and classes are available.
    We would need to know what race/class combos are possible.

    Ashes, specifically has races no other game has had, so it's not even possible to pick anything off kilter before learning what the game has to offer.

    It's possible to look at the options in depth and still not choose the uber meta options.

    Continuing to assert an erroneous claim doesn't make the claim true.
    The current race/class design does not offer an illusion of choice - rather it offers true choices that are all viable - even those that are not optimal.

    Ashes has racial stat progression.
    Players have the legitimate choice to choose a class that doesn't take optimal advantage of the race/combos.
    Not maximizing stats is a legitimate choice - not the illusion of choice.

    In Ashes, what matters is that different races will play the same archetype differently. They will rely on different stats and different augments to play the roles that are subsets of each archetype.
    Instead of soaking damage with Stamina like Renkai Tanks, we can expect Pyrian Tanks to evade damage using Dexterity.
    We can expect Renkai Tanks to be better at Shield Bash, while Pyrian Tanks are better at Taunt.
    And we can expect that Renkai go for Tank/Tank, while Pyrian go for Tank/Ranger.
    We can expect Renkai to Taunt and remain in melee range while Pyrian Taunt and kite.
    Each will be maximizing their racial stat progression to support their styles of Tanking.
    And both can be highly effective.

    But, no, the Rankai probably won't excel at evading damage and the Pyrian probably won't excel at soaking damage. It's unlikely that they would try to do that.
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    How would you need to know what race or race/class combos are available if you are not going to play the game threw the progression of quest and instead explore and travel however you feel like? If you just play however you feel then the race and class are only for your convince but don't effect how you play or why you play.

    The choice you talk about is only superficial and continuing to suggest playing how ever you feel gives you choice is selfish. Not everyone plays like you or wants to play like you, we all have our own way of doing things and progressing threw the game.

    As one of the players that want to progress threw the game along the lines of quest progression and story there is only an illusion of choice when it comes to race stats having an effect on the strength of my character. All of the choice is taken away when everything is laid out for you and does not allow you to alter to far out side the meta.

    Your continual suggestion that free choice is a ligament choice is also very conceited when you don't consider the different ways others play and only obsess about your Orc race class combo.

    The illusion of choice that I am arguing against is a possibility and not a reference to how I play as a broad view there are several ways that Ashes can avaoid the illusion of choice but will they is the real question.
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    The answer is simple...just don't make the stat difference go much past the 5% in base difference. So that Elf mage at it's base will be no more that 5% better as a mage than a Dwarf. The one balancer though would be what the race itself brings to the class combo and might make up for a small base deficit.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    It won't be just stats, there'll be racial augments as well. So while a dwarf might have more stamina/constitution an elf might have augments that has more avoidance or magical resists (the effects used in my example are pure speculation). 

    In my opinion, choice must have consequences. Expecting a burly ferocious orc to sneak as well as a little Halfling feels out of sorts. The orc (while not impossible) is going to have to overcome some racial limitations to hone his sneaky skills. But those racial limitations (Being larger than normal) are still going to be there. 

    I personally like it if some races are going to be better suited to certain classes. By choosing a non conventional race, you might have to build your tank slightly differently to best suit your race. E.g a two handed wielding orc mage, or a nimble avoidance elven tank, or 2 dwarves stacked on top of one another pretending to be a full sized tank. 

    So @blackmohammad, While I understand that there is an aspect of "illusion of choice" and concerns about being pigeonholed into certain races. I'm more concerned about the "illusion of choice" because there aren't any consequence to the choice (which having all races more or less the same with minor stat differences for the sake of "balance" might possibly bring about). 
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    Well, there is magic involved, so...
    If the Vek Rogue is relying on Dexterity, she should not be able to Sneak as well as an Empyrean Rogue - maybe not as well as a Niküa Rogue.

    If the Vek is relying on Invisibility to Sneak and Vek have Int that matches Empyrean and Niküa, she should be able to Sneak equally well.
    She might also need to be using magic that grants Move Silently.

    A Vek Rogue might be more likely to bash apart traps and soak the damage -or bash open a lock- using Strength rather than Dexterity.
    That's the kind of stuff that I'm hoping to see.
    It shouldn't be that a race sucks at an archetype - rather that they perform the role differently - relying on different stats to overcome the challenge/obstacle.
    There's more than one way to skin a cat.

    The consequence will likely be that the Ren'Kai racial stat progression will be such that they are the meta best for Tank/Tank... maximizing Strength and Stamina.
    A Py'Rai is not going to want to try to out Tank/Tank a Ren'Kai toe-to-toe.

    We should expect to see a Py'Rai go for Tank/Ranger or Tank/Mage - their racial stat progression helping to crank up Taunts past what the Ren'Kai can achieve, relying on Dex and Int to hit foes from range while avoiding melee damage rather than using Shield Bash in melee and relying on Stamina to soak melee damage.

    Both a Py'Rai and a Ren'Kai should be able to make great Tanks... but the way each plays the Tank role should be spectacularly different.

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    Dygz said:
    Well, there is magic involved, so...
    If the Vek Rogue is relying on Dexterity, she should not be able to Sneak as well as an Empyrean Rogue - maybe not as well as a Niküa Rogue.

    If the Vek is relying on Invisibility to Sneak and Vek have Int that matches Empyrean and Niküa, she should be able to Sneak equally well.
    She might also need to be using magic that grants Move Silently.

    A Vek Rogue might be more likely to bash apart traps and soak the damage -or bash open a lock- using Strength rather than Dexterity.
    That's the kind of stuff that I'm hoping to see.
    It shouldn't be that a race sucks at an archetype - rather that they perform the role differently - relying on different stats to overcome the challenge/obstacle.
    There's more than one way to skin a cat.

    The consequence will likely be that the Ren'Kai racial stat progression will be such that they are the meta best for Tank/Tank... maximizing Strength and Stamina.
    A Py'Rai is not going to want to try to out Tank/Tank a Ren'Kai toe-to-toe.

    We should expect to see a Py'Rai go for Tank/Ranger or Tank/Mage - their racial stat progression helping to crank up Taunts past what the Ren'Kai can achieve, relying on Dex and Int to hit foes from range while avoiding melee damage rather than using Shield Bash in melee and relying on Stamina to soak melee damage.

    Both a Py'Rai and a Ren'Kai should be able to make great Tanks... but the way each plays the Tank role should be spectacularly different.


    Exactly the type of choices I would like to see in the game. Yep. 
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    I prefer to have real choices for creation like what @AutumnWillow and @Dygz said. Choosing the best style of play to suit the class.

    It seems to make the most sense. 
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    I also agree that a choice with consequence would be the best way to apply the race stat so the choice to build a race that does not suit the class can still recover or even improve depending on their choice later on
    I just don't think a "stat" that boost a race in a direction threw out the game is the same thing because it can't be changed and will always have an effect on your character.
    The race augment might not actually be a just a stat boost, from what I heard the augment might be more cultural.

    Example : Orc mage will use magic based on spirits and elements.
    Elf mage will use magic more nature based 

    If this Racial augment is true it would make the choice of class not as restricted and insteas give a unique flavor to each class and race combo. 
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