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Changing your primary class

Steven mentioned they’re toying with the idea of allowing players to change their primary class (I’ll make a separate poll for secondary classes, which can be changed regardless).

Should you be allowed to change your primary class?

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    Not too sure if I've answered correctly tbh. Tough one, but my main concern would be swathes of people going all fotm, every month. Diversity is good. Pick your primary class and stick with it imo as all will have ups and downs during the development and life of Ashes.  
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    I don't really care just yet.  I need to see the larger system of classes/skills etc. and what it actually means to change ones class.  Without it, I think it's kind of pre-mature to get fully into it.
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    just re roll
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    No it takes away from the games replay ability as well as makes it very easy to finish raids and dungeons
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    Kratz said:
    Not too sure if I've answered correctly tbh. Tough one, but my main concern would be swathes of people going all fotm, every month. Diversity is good. Pick your primary class and stick with it imo as all will have ups and downs during the development and life of Ashes.  
    There's no right or wrong answer. This is just for discussion and to help spread ideas around. I personally am against being able to swap your primary class, but I am in favor of swapping your secondary class (which will be possible). 

    The reasoning I've heard from other players with regards to choices 1 and 2 from the list are:

    1) The choice of your primary should be permanent due to consequence and to encourage people to make alts.

    2) A quest would allow players who don’t have the time to level an Alt to lvl 50 (if it takes months of continuous playtime) to try a different role while still encouraging players to make alts if they want to be able to quickly swap roles for a raid or siege (e.g. you’d still need a cleric alt if your group needs a healer immediately).

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    Solarion said:
    Kratz said:
    Not too sure if I've answered correctly tbh. Tough one, but my main concern would be swathes of people going all fotm, every month. Diversity is good. Pick your primary class and stick with it imo as all will have ups and downs during the development and life of Ashes.  
    There's no right or wrong answer.
    Sure, what I meant was, I'm not too sure myself as I could imagine valid arguments for both sides of the coin. However, I stand by what I said until I learn more from Intrepid which may(I doubt) make me change my mind.
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    dracdoc said:
    I don't really care just yet.  I need to see the larger system of classes/skills etc. and what it actually means to change ones class.  Without it, I think it's kind of pre-mature to get fully into it.
    Kratz said:
    Sure, what I meant was, I'm not too sure myself as I could imagine valid arguments for both sides of the coin. However, I stand by what I said until I learn more from Intrepid which may(I doubt) make me change my mind.
    Yeah, for sure. Of course, we need more information and people's minds will change as the game develops. These polls will serve as a point of reference to gauge where everyone stands coming from conceptions built up from previous MMOs.

    This is less about Ashes and the devs because they'll do their own thing (maybe responding to the community where they're really uncertain on a given mechanism).

    This is more about us to gauge how past games have shaped our views. For all we know, Ashes might have a mind blowing system that'll make this poll moot. Most of the threads are speculation and liable to change anyway, with the exception of topics on the core pillars.
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    I am really not in favor of being able to change primary class willy nilly.  That ends in servers full of evryone playing the flavour of the month class.  If people are desperate to change class and keep the same toon as they are just not enjoying the playstyle for example maybe there could be the facility to have their mind cleared of all you have learned to allow room to learn a new class.  A system simillar to Archeage where you dont loose your level but do need to gain the experience again to progress through the new tree and gain the new skills. however the old skills would be lost forever well unless you want to have your mind wiped again and start from scratch again.  As always just my opinion.
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    I am really not in favor of being able to change primary class willy nilly.  That ends in servers full of evryone playing the flavour of the month class.  If people are desperate to change class and keep the same toon as they are just not enjoying the playstyle for example maybe there could be the facility to have their mind cleared of all you have learned to allow room to learn a new class.  A system simillar to Archeage where you dont loose your level but do need to gain the experience again to progress through the new tree and gain the new skills. however the old skills would be lost forever well unless you want to have your mind wiped again and start from scratch again.  As always just my opinion.
    In theory, I like your idea, though to make this viable, Intrepid would have to character lvl, and class lvl, two separate from each other.

    I would also like to add to that, the need to perform a quest to change to another primary class.  The quest differing, depending on the class you desire to change to.  The fee would be the completion of the quest, and the "essence" of your previous primary class completely driven from your soul (PJ_Rydecker's "mind wipe").  The higher your characer/class level, the more difficult the quest.

    Also, a player can only perform these arduous feats, but so often.  "Cleansing" taxes the soul, considerably.  After the first primary class switch, another switch can only be performed after a 6 month wait period (real life time). 
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    It really depends. As a Final Fantasy 14 player I love the idea of being able to be self sufficient and being more attached to my character, without have to make multiple toons.  But for realism I am fine with a lockout with some kind of currency payment as well
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    How about a super rare item that allows the ability to change primary class? I'm not sure how it would work level-wise. I would rather have it so that a character changing their class would have to start from scratch, even after acquiring such a rare item that I mentioned. I can see this game working in such a way where it would be really easy for a rumor to be spread that such an item exists and thinking about the scramble it would incite in some players is exciting.
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    The ability to change primary class would lower any sort of character identity. In the past i have found it's really easy to lose interest once that character changes radically. When all the stories of the past don't line up with current abilities and play-style. There needs to be an anchor.
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    Preferably not
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    I think it should be doable, but with restrictions. One of my biggest problems with MMOs is class balance and skill changes. It attracts me to other classes sometimes, but it also drives me away from a class or the game outright. Class balance will never be perfect, no matter the game, otherwise classes would be gray and boring, but the way a lot of people circumvent the problem is by having many alts and "re-rolling". Leveling an alt doesn't really stop people and I feel it is a dead mechanic to not class change. You are just jarring a player away from their hard work such as reputations or bound items.

    Is re-rolling a healthy thing for an MMO though? What are good reasons to disallow class changing? A lot of people seem to dislike the idea, but I don't understand why.
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    WolfwingX said:
    No it takes away from the games replay ability as well as makes it very easy to finish raids and dungeons
    Can anyone here give one good example of a game that gives on the fly ability to do this that has had a lasting player base for an online game?
    To me it seems to be a option better suited for single player console games or a game that is on its way out the door because the player base isn't there, or the classes were poorly designed so they all couldn't be self sufficient in most aspects in their own way.
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    I love the job change system in both final fantasy MMOs, each class will always retain its level and cant be changed in an instanced area (in 11 you did it in your moghome which is like your personal little base) I really hate making alts, I love having only 1 name to go by. with something like how this game is made there should definitely be a guild hall in all towns that allow you to change your class
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    Wow, this is kinda ... odd. Interesting. Ummmm ... well. I suppose they can do whatever they choose to, but I personally would find it a bit immersion-breaking to think that someone who's shown a sharp predilection for magic would suddenly become, rather, a sword & board gal. 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    The ability to change primary class would lower any sort of character identity. In the past i have found it's really easy to lose interest once that character changes radically. When all the stories of the past don't line up with current abilities and play-style. There needs to be an anchor.
    You raise a good point for players who care about RP and immersion. While it is true that the world is constantly changing, your character developed into his or her self through those difficult changes and it should reflect in their powers and style to a degree.

    That said, I suppose a person can change. What if a fighter decides to walk away from the life of a sword and decides to spend his days poring over arcane books? The only thing that would make this immersion-breaking is if in the Ashes lore, magic wielding classes have to be born with some inherent magic in their blood.

    But, seeing as how there can be fighter-mage combinations, I assume all characters in this high fantasy setting will have the inherent ability to wield magic. I guess the only way to retain the sense of traveling down a character path would be to make sure you have to re-earn your greatness. You might have been a legendary warrior on the battlefield, but you'd have to go back to square one as a mage.
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    @PJ_Rydecker
    @freespiryt

    Interesting ideas. I'm also against being able to change willy-nilly to the flavor of the month (aka current meta). The notion of a challenging quest and a cooldown penalty would make players think about it carefully, and it would still encourage people to make alts if they want to swap to a different role immediately (e.g. your current party is lacking a tank or healer).

    Also, the "mind wipe" would help you recapture the sense of journey that your character had to take with his or her other primary class, so it could benefit those who want to be immersed in their characters without re-rolling entirely.

    That said, I would prefer not to be allowed to swap primary classes in the first place, unless the game system turns out to be radically different from what we're expecting.
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    lol I see a lot of "Absolutely not's", on this thread, regarding this subject.  And, I can honestly relate, being an immersion type RP're, myself.  I, too, like to commit to a character, and not engage in "fly by night" class changing.  It does, indeed, kill immersion.

    But, on the flip side, I don't see the benefit from totally excluding the idea of giving players a limited opportunity to have a "re-do" if they find the class they thought they would like, not fun.

    I've been there.  Rolled a class, played to lvl 10...didn't like it.  Reroll.  Play the next class to lvl 10...didn't like it either.  Reroll.  Continuing until I found what I liked.  Now, this may be less of an impediment for experienced gamers, because we already have a good idea, from playing past mmo's, of the kind of gameplay we like, and make our choices after careful consideration.  More novice player don't have such wealth of knowledge to rely on.  

    Even if a proposed class change was only allowed once, maybe twice, a lifetime, I think that would be ok.  And, to make things simple, the character would start over from scratch at level 1, losing all previous experience in primary/secondary adventure classes, artisan classes, and whatever social organizations they joined.


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    Since some of the team were from Star Wars Galaxies, it'll be great if we could keep leveling up different classes till we unlocked a secret class.  >:)

    (no please don't.)

    Let people build their reputation and identity as a primary class. I think it fosters community as well. We have multiple character slots anyway, if we want to play a different class just roll a new alt?
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    Since some of the team were from Star Wars Galaxies, it'll be great if we could keep leveling up different classes till we unlocked a secret class.  >:)

    (no please don't.)

    Let people build their reputation and identity as a primary class. I think it fosters community as well. We have multiple character slots anyway, if we want to play a different class just roll a new alt?
    Lol secret classes would be a cool idea doe or maybe hidden skills.
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    FFXIV actually did this quite well. You had character level and a level for each class. This allows you to progress every class on one character. In life, you dont just become a new person. You hone your skills. If you had enough time, you could master many different skills. FFXIV did not have a problem with flavor of the month switches. If you have 64 options of class, there will be multiple viable and strong choices. Also, if they did it FFXIV style, you would have had to level all the classes to cover all possible flavors of the month. I'm not opposed to primary class switches as long as you can't go from max level in one to max level in another. 
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    I am split between not at all and making it a cashshop feature, the main theme of the game is consequences and picking your class should be a thing that is locked, after all you can make alts, but at the same time I can understand rerolling if you come back after a long break, however that could be seen as a paid advantage which is why in sceptical, I def dont think it should be possible to change using ingame methods.
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    I'm fine with people changing their class however what should happen when this happens is your character is effectively wiped. This is pretty much a reroll however you'd be able to keep your name and if desired, your appearance, friends list, guild affiliation, etc.

    The problem with allowing people to change their class without any drawback (no loss in level or similar) is they will pick whatever is flavor of the month, or if more available, whenever it would be beneficial to them. I don't want it to be real money based because then it opens a whole can of worms nobody is going to want to deal with ever.

    Changing your class should be no different than deleting your character and remaking from square one. This is to prevent the system from being abused.
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    I really hope they make class choice permanent.. otherwise we are going to have a bunch of kids playing whatever class is the strongest at that current moment. Flavor of the month. #FOTM  #NOFOTM   
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    So...Normally I would say "ABSOLUTELY NOT!!  That's lame..."  because people will just roll to whatever primary is the best at the moment (as many before me have said).

    BUT!!!  This is Ashes of Creation...there are so many other things tied to a single character.  Let's say that someone spent a few months really giving it the "old college try."  If they really don't like the primary class they chose in the end (class identity itself might be great, but the mechanics are terrible to them), they may or may not have the RL time to level a new character AND:
    • Religious standing
    • Position in the local politics (trying to work up to being mayor, right?)
    • Crafting class/gathering class
    • Sailing class
    • Fishing class (can't remember if separate from crafting/gathering)
    • Social path (thieves guild, etc)
    • Find a new freehold location
    • Hope to get back into the nifty non-instanced house in town
    • Whatever other secret niftiness Intrepid hasn't shared with us (reputation?)
    • Possibly other stuff I forgot
    Other games don't have quite that much that someone could have invested time into, let alone that many things tied to individual characters that you might not be able to get again (lookin at you freehold location and in-town non-instanced housing).  It's a lot of stuff to throw away just to *try* a different primary class, which they may still end up disliking.

    I would be OK if each character (or maybe account?) were given a finite number of times they can change their primary class.  No cash shop option and no quest lines that would allow you to start as a new primary class at max level, though!  Many people would just buy a respec or do a quest every time their primary class is nerfed.  There needs to be some actual blood, sweat, and tears put into the change.

    I *DO* kinda like the idea @PJ_Rydecker suggested though.  Starting your primary class over from lvl 1 would be a nice middle-ground, even if your character level remains where it was before.  It could work somewhat similar to the experience deficit Intrepid is already programming for deaths.  You could keep all of your social progression stuff, your freehoold, your in-town non-instanced housing, and start training at lvl 1 for your new life as whatever else you wanted to be.  

    And, as @Solarion stated: Maybe you just want to give up the sword to pursue a life as a mage, after witnessing something amazing while running with one.  As long as you need to actually put in some serious work to do it
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Diamond said:
    WolfwingX said:
    No it takes away from the games replay ability as well as makes it very easy to finish raids and dungeons
    Can anyone here give one good example of a game that gives on the fly ability to do this that has had a lasting player base for an online game?
    To me it seems to be a option better suited for single player console games or a game that is on its way out the door because the player base isn't there, or the classes were poorly designed so they all couldn't be self sufficient in most aspects in their own way.
    Ultima Online.  It's turning 20 years old here soon and people still play it.  Monthly subscription and all.  You can choose to unlearn any skill *or stat* and start training another one.  It was like that from day 1.

    EDIT:  Unless you meant literally change in an instant to run through a raid with 3 or 4 different classes used by a single person....  Then...no.  I can't think of one, lol.
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    If it is a core feature, such as in Final Fantasy, I would be ok with it. Anything besides that and I'm absolutely against it.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Mistro said:
    I think it should be doable, but with restrictions. One of my biggest problems with MMOs is class balance and skill changes. It attracts me to other classes sometimes, but it also drives me away from a class or the game outright. Class balance will never be perfect, no matter the game, otherwise classes would be gray and boring, but the way a lot of people circumvent the problem is by having many alts and "re-rolling". Leveling an alt doesn't really stop people and I feel it is a dead mechanic to not class change. You are just jarring a player away from their hard work such as reputations or bound items.

    Is re-rolling a healthy thing for an MMO though? What are good reasons to disallow class changing? A lot of people seem to dislike the idea, but I don't understand why.
    People could abuse the ability to primary swap and there could be too many of the same class (or class combinations).  If it turns out Fighter-Mage is the current meta, then you'd have thousands of players swapping out both their primary and secondary class for that specific combination in PVP sieges etc. It'd make world PVP boring because you'd be less likely to encounter a diversity of build combinations. Eventually, the devs would release a patch, and it now turns out Ranger-Bard is the new meta. Everyone switches over. Rinse and repeat.  

    To be sure, every online game ever has had a meta, and the meta changes over time with balancing patches, experimentation, and so forth.

    But, let's say it takes 2 months to hit Lvl 50 for a hard core no-lifer, and more like 4-6 months for someone who can only play a few hours a day. You could level up an Alt to the current meta, but by the time you hit max level, maybe the meta would change with a patch update. Therefore, the meta won't have such a tyrannic hold over the player base. Friends might recommend a particular build to newcomer friends based on the meta, but that is to be expect.

    Another factor to consider is the rewarding feeling players experience when it's finally their build's time to shine in the meta rotation, especially if your build becomes the first meta at launch before any balancing patches (you'd realize your hunch for an awesome combination was correct).
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