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Changing your primary class

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    only if you can change it with your secondary class but you flip-flop (like a sandle ;))  it. meaning if your a rouge/fighter; you can only become a fighter/rouge. it hurts me to say this but i dont think it okay changing your class completely. yes i know you can just create a new toon. it hurts me because im a little older and with a wife/kids time becomes an issue and thats were i can see changing your class and not having to start all over again would be very nice
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    No, not really a good idea for this type of build to be honest. All classes seem like they'll have varying degrees of uniqueness and utility. It defeats the purpose of your efforts to simply be able to switch back and forth even at a cost. I don't mind the idea of "leveling after leveling" like learning a new classes kit after reaching max level in your own.

    Obviously this shouldn't be something you can just stack but something that once you start learning it you can commit it as your "new" class primary or secondary. Ideally it's like being a highly skilled adventurer, you eventually become a jack of all trades so to speak. Just not all at once, more like you can commit to 1 combo at a time.

    That however, opens an entirely new can of worms.
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    I get bored of the same class always, and couldn't be asked to level up a new character. 

    Change class as you please, with limitations such as cant change in dungeons, combat etc 
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    @Mistro  
    Is re-rolling a healthy thing for an MMO though?
    Upon reflection and reading everyone's responses, I can understand some of the other perspectives.

    I'd be okay with primary swapping if a strict system was in place. There should be a long cooldown and/or a limit to the number of primary swaps.

    The character should retain certain in-world progress such as land and Freehold templates, reputation, and so forth. However, you should lose your class-based progress and level. 

    The exception here would be if the devs make it so your secondary class augments also need to be leveled up through exp or point allocation, in which case it'd be okay if you could demote your primary to a secondary with some debuffs in place until your new primary catches up to your secondary in level. 
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    ugh...I just went to edit a spelling mistake in my first post and it poofed....
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    Brumby66 said:
    FFXIV actually did this quite well. You had character level and a level for each class. This allows you to progress every class on one character. In life, you dont just become a new person. You hone your skills. If you had enough time, you could master many different skills. FFXIV did not have a problem with flavor of the month switches. If you have 64 options of class, there will be multiple viable and strong choices. Also, if they did it FFXIV style, you would have had to level all the classes to cover all possible flavors of the month. I'm not opposed to primary class switches as long as you can't go from max level in one to max level in another. 
    I've never played FFXIV, so I can't judge how well it works within that game. I do have reservations with bringing such a system to Ashes though. I can see what you mean in terms of a character existing long enough to have trained in everything and studied everything. And, even though a meta in unavoidable, if they have enough powerful builds competing with each other, maybe it would reduce the problem of 1000s of players playing FOTM builds once everyone has all classes at max Lvl in such a system.

    My initial response is to be against such a system, but I'll have to think about this option some more before judging it fairly. If they went with something like this, I'd want them to implement the same penalty system another poster recommended in my secondary class thread: slow level decay for the class that you don't have currently selected. Not all skills in life are like riding a bicycle - you have to use it or you lose it.
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    Nomack said:
    only if you can change it with your secondary class but you flip-flop (like a sandle ;))  it. meaning if your a rouge/fighter; you can only become a fighter/rouge. it hurts me to say this but i dont think it okay changing your class completely. yes i know you can just create a new toon. it hurts me because im a little older and with a wife/kids time becomes an issue and thats were i can see changing your class and not having to start all over again would be very nice
    That's an interesting idea, but for such a system to work they'd have to make it so you cannot change your secondary class to anything other than your primary. Based on the Q&As, it sounds like we'll be able to change our secondary class to whatever other class we want.
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    @Virtek
    I still see your original post if you're talking about the Ultima Online one. I've had posts completely disappear too after editing them though. It looks like the post eating monster is still alive, but he now has to act more stealthily  :p
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    Solarion said:
    @Virtek
    I still see your original post if you're talking about the Ultima Online one. I've had posts completely disappear too after editing them though. It looks like the post eating monster is still alive, but he now has to act more stealthily  :p
    No, I'm talking about the longer one I posted, with bullets for the different things in the world attached to a specific character that might be lost if someone has to completely reroll for a new primary class: freeholds, in-town non-instanced housing, social progression, etc.  If it wasn't so long, I'd post it again right now, hehe.   Maybe another day.  

    Then again, maybe I don't need to post all that again.  Others have said similar info, so anyone reading will get the idea that more is attached to a single character in Ashes versus other games.  Either way, I'm usually against changing primary class in a game, but Ashes seems like it will have a lot of investment in a character and i'd hate to see someone have to choose between that and playing a class they don't enjoy any longer.
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    @Virtek
    Yeah, initially I was adamantly against primary class swapping, but after considering the other viewpoints presented here, I don't mind a partial re-roll system to avoid players having to completely re-roll. I do think the consequences should be severe though (as I mention in one of my posts above).


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    Let people build their reputation and identity as a primary class. I think it fosters community as well. We have multiple character slots anyway, if we want to play a different class just roll a new alt?
    Agreed.  For emmersion and reputation reasons.  Known for being a great ranger? Then be a great ranger dont just switch to FOTM class.  Also Meaningful PVP is more meaningful if getting to know your enemy is actually of value.  Get beaten by a well known ranger a couple times. spar with a freindly ranger get to know their stregnths and weaknesses. Meet said well known ranger and win a famous victory.  Alternativly in a free respec world.  Meet said well known ranger after all that training get hit in the face by a fireball. WT? Oh well I guess the well known ranger was only any good because of that buff they got last month.  Mage must have got a buff this month......... ho hum.
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    Solarion said:
    @Virtek
    Yeah, initially I was adamantly against primary class swapping, but after considering the other viewpoints presented here, I don't mind a partial re-roll system to avoid players having to completely re-roll. I do think the consequences should be severe though (as I mention in one of my posts above).

    Exactly!  It shouldn't be an easy (or fast) thing to do, by any means.  I've always been against that type of thing in every other game.  The depth of options, multiple progression paths, and everything else attached to a single character that a player must commit to...it almost makes playing an alt seem counter-productive if you're only doing it because you've grown to dislike your current primary class. 
    Yet alts can still be highly enjoyable if you are creating a totally new personality and life path with a new primary class (or the same, for that matter) as a clean slate.



    Let people build their reputation and identity as a primary class. I think it fosters community as well. We have multiple character slots anyway, if we want to play a different class just roll a new alt?
    Agreed.  ...
    ...
    WT? Oh well I guess the well known ranger was only any good because of that buff they got last month.  Mage must have got a buff this month......... ho hum.
    I totally see your view point on this and I agree, to a degree.  It's partially a view of mine as well.  It's why I'm kinda conflicted on liking or disliking the option.  

    I keep thinking back to my days in Ultima Online though...  
    It was great to be able to learn and unlearn/relearn different skills and change your stats to fine tune yourself to perfection.  It took a LOT of effort, time, and money to do so, but it felt more immersive, rather than less.  It felt like I was continually training myself to be better, as I learned more about the world, how it works, and what I wanted to achieve out there.  I never thought of class changing as beneficial in any other game since, but I have a feeling that type of system would be right at home in such an evolving world as Ashes.  Not the *exact* same system, but at least one you can mold to your liking over time and after learning more about the world.

    Think of your combat primary class like your crafting class.  You don't get locked into being a blacksmith forever in any game I've ever played, yet that takes just as long to properly master as it does to level your combat class and you may have grown to be known as THE blacksmith to visit.  
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    @Virtek I took played uo and enjoyed the skill system. Heh, if there was the ability to change your secondary skill that should provide some flexibility in builds without too much identity swapping. 

    What I was curious about though, is if we will have multiple characters slots... Why not just roll another class on an alt. That way you don't lose whatever effort you had in your main character. 

    It'll allow you explore different religions, social progression, or even a different guild/node. 
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    @Virtek ... 

    What I was curious about though, is if we will have multiple characters slots... Why not just roll another class on an alt. That way you don't lose whatever effort you had in your main character. 

    It'll allow you explore different religions, social progression, or even a different guild/node. 
    Personally, I will be doing just that.  I'll be fine with it, either way.  I'll def enjoy toying with all the varieties of secondary classes though!!  I might, however, have more random times in the day where I can play than many others.

    I'm more concerned for the people that play more casually.  If they get to max level and dislike how the final product turns out in combat situations, even after they try all the secondary combinations, it could be a massive disappointment.  

    If it does indeed take months to max in Ashes, players could already have a freehold established exactly where they want it, a non-instanced home in town, some social progression paths boosted a bit, some crafting boosted a bit, and they would literally be throwing that all away by jumping ship to an alt.  If they can change their primary class, they wouldn't have to worry about losing those prime housing and freehold spots nor the social or crafting progression.  The character with the class they don't like would become their market and storage mule that never leaves town except to travel to their freehold.  A "daily" machine...
    It would be a whole different matter if Intrepid said "Leveling?  Oh yeah, like...3 weeks and you're done, man."  Then easy peasy, make a new toon and be done with it.

    This is all, of course, assuming that you don't fully unlock every combat ability for your class/subclass setup until you get to max level or near it.  It would not be quite so bad in other games, where it would take you a handful of weeks with limited quality content outside of the quests to level up.  Ashes looks like it will be abundant in quality content and you might not fully unlock your character's abilities for quite a while.  

    So difficult to really gauge something like this with so little info, but the discussion is fun!
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    Make an alt.
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    I do not have a super strong stance on that one, but I think it's preferable to not allow the change of main class, as it remove the interest of alting.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Jesteric said:
    Make an alt.
    I dont want to come across as a FFXIV fanboy, but they did the job/class system quite well. In many MMO's you have tons of alts, but based on what we've heard, this game should be different. Look at all of the aspects of the game that need advancement. You have class, society, religion, house, freehold, etc. Do you really want to have to advance all those on an alt? In FFXIV you advance everything on one character giving you a stronger connection to that character. You can have an alt, but it's unnecessary. Through a lot of time and work you can truly develop your character. I'm against having 63 alts and a main to play any class combination I want. I have played a loooot of MMO's but havent really seen the primary/secondary class system aside from FFXI/FFXIV. 
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    vote is all that needs to be said by me.. good discussion though
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    I would never change my class even if you killed me ^^
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    Brumby66 said:
    Jesteric said:
    Make an alt.
    You have class, society, religion, house, freehold, etc. Do you really want to have to advance all those on an alt?
    Perhaps that's why I feel the way I do because I never make an alt. The character I'll be in the game, will be me as it were. Also, welcome @Elloa, I really enjoyed your vids on ESO back in the day.
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    Rerolling main class, possibly if you reset your lvl. But keep your achievements, name, etc.
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    Kratz said:
    Brumby66 said:
    Jesteric said:
    Make an alt.
    You have class, society, religion, house, freehold, etc. Do you really want to have to advance all those on an alt?
    Perhaps that's why I feel the way I do because I never make an alt. The character I'll be in the game, will be me as it were. Also, welcome @Elloa, I really enjoyed your vids on ESO back in the day.
    Right, you have stronger incentive to master everything when that one avatar in the game is "you." Majority of MMO's I played required me to have several alts. Now instead of one avatar I am 6 or 7 in game. It builds a stronger sense of person and community imo when people are known and recognized by one name. Just my opinion. I'll be happy with whatever they choose. i highly tecommend people look up the FFXI/FFXIV job system. Every game has its strong and weak points. I have never played games with a better class system. 
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    @Brumby66 I am familiar with ffxiv job system. I do enjoy games with flexible skill systems,  Games like ffxiv, Ultima online, swg even secret world. And others with fixed classes like eq and eq2. 

    I think by forcing a main to stick to a primary class it could really make players rely on one another more.

    I.e. A black smith main will probably be able to create better weapons than an Alt blacksmith due to all the class/society/progression gates. 

    Or looking for that awesome bard *ahem* you teamed with yesterday to party up again instead of just thinking you could just bring an alt get the same quality play. 

    Putting the massive back in mmos would also mean having things like Player dependencies be a thing again. If a player could master everything on one character, that takes away from the experience of an mmo in my opinion. 
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    To me, it all depends on how the crafting and transferring items to other characters is handled.

     

    If I focus everything in to a craft, but I find out later I need to change roles for whatever reason to craft a super special recipe – I’d rather take the new class than give the recipe to an alt.

     

    If you think about the levelling process in terms of time – whether leveling the character, the profession, side-jobs, religion, etc – everything will take lots of time (in theory).  As much as I like the idea of never-ever changing primary classes, I like the idea of swapping classes with a huge cost, as to not lose all the time you put in to everything else.

     

    If you think in terms of roleplaying or whatnot, you will essentially have to “start over” at another class, so I don’t mind if you essentially de-level yourself in many ways to start a new class.  So a huge quest would seem like the right way to go so you don’t lose everything in the process.

     

    Then again, it would be pretty funny to see a master enchanter of cloth as a heavy-armor Tank… though I would prefer that wasn’t the case.  I also generally believe that many crafting roles should be class-specific as well.  Like, if “enchanting” is a profession, it should be restricted to only magic-based classes.  Possibly even mage-only or bard-only.

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    @Brumby66 I am familiar with ffxiv job system. I do enjoy games with flexible skill systems,  Games like ffxiv, Ultima online, swg even secret world. And others with fixed classes like eq and eq2. 

    I think by forcing a main to stick to a primary class it could really make players rely on one another more.

    I.e. A black smith main will probably be able to create better weapons than an Alt blacksmith due to all the class/society/progression gates. 

    Or looking for that awesome bard *ahem* you teamed with yesterday to party up again instead of just thinking you could just bring an alt get the same quality play. 

    Putting the massive back in mmos would also mean having things like Player dependencies be a thing again. If a player could master everything on one character, that takes away from the experience of an mmo in my opinion. 
    I definitely know what you're saying. I'm at both extremes myself. I personally want full flexibility as in the FF games or no flexibility at all. I just appreciated being able to have one character be "me". I'm fine with whichever way it goes. 
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    Solarion said:
    @Virtek
    Yeah, initially I was adamantly against primary class swapping, but after considering the other viewpoints presented here, I don't mind a partial re-roll system to avoid players having to completely re-roll. I do think the consequences should be severe though (as I mention in one of my posts above).

    Exactly!  It shouldn't be an easy (or fast) thing to do, by any means.  I've always been against that type of thing in every other game.  The depth of options, multiple progression paths, and everything else attached to a single character that a player must commit to...it almost makes playing an alt seem counter-productive if you're only doing it because you've grown to dislike your current primary class. 
    Yet alts can still be highly enjoyable if you are creating a totally new personality and life path with a new primary class (or the same, for that matter) as a clean slate.



    Let people build their reputation and identity as a primary class. I think it fosters community as well. We have multiple character slots anyway, if we want to play a different class just roll a new alt?
    Agreed.  ...
    ...
    WT? Oh well I guess the well known ranger was only any good because of that buff they got last month.  Mage must have got a buff this month......... ho hum.
    I totally see your view point on this and I agree, to a degree.  It's partially a view of mine as well.  It's why I'm kinda conflicted on liking or disliking the option.  

    I keep thinking back to my days in Ultima Online though...  
    It was great to be able to learn and unlearn/relearn different skills and change your stats to fine tune yourself to perfection.  It took a LOT of effort, time, and money to do so, but it felt more immersive, rather than less.  It felt like I was continually training myself to be better, as I learned more about the world, how it works, and what I wanted to achieve out there.  I never thought of class changing as beneficial in any other game since, but I have a feeling that type of system would be right at home in such an evolving world as Ashes.  Not the *exact* same system, but at least one you can mold to your liking over time and after learning more about the world.

    Think of your combat primary class like your crafting class.  You don't get locked into being a blacksmith forever in any game I've ever played, yet that takes just as long to properly master as it does to level your combat class and you may have grown to be known as THE blacksmith to visit.  
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    Solarion said:
    @Virtek
    Yeah, initially I was adamantly against primary class swapping, but after considering the other viewpoints presented here, I don't mind a partial re-roll system to avoid players having to completely re-roll. I do think the consequences should be severe though (as I mention in one of my posts above).

    Exactly!  It shouldn't be an easy (or fast) thing to do, by any means.  I've always been against that type of thing in every other game.  The depth of options, multiple progression paths, and everything else attached to a single character that a player must commit to...it almost makes playing an alt seem counter-productive if you're only doing it because you've grown to dislike your current primary class. 
    Yet alts can still be highly enjoyable if you are creating a totally new personality and life path with a new primary class (or the same, for that matter) as a clean slate.



    Let people build their reputation and identity as a primary class. I think it fosters community as well. We have multiple character slots anyway, if we want to play a different class just roll a new alt?
    Agreed.  ...
    ...
    WT? Oh well I guess the well known ranger was only any good because of that buff they got last month.  Mage must have got a buff this month......... ho hum.
    I totally see your view point on this and I agree, to a degree.  It's partially a view of mine as well.  It's why I'm kinda conflicted on liking or disliking the option.  

    I keep thinking back to my days in Ultima Online though...  
    It was great to be able to learn and unlearn/relearn different skills and change your stats to fine tune yourself to perfection.  It took a LOT of effort, time, and money to do so, but it felt more immersive, rather than less.  It felt like I was continually training myself to be better, as I learned more about the world, how it works, and what I wanted to achieve out there.  I never thought of class changing as beneficial in any other game since, but I have a feeling that type of system would be right at home in such an evolving world as Ashes.  Not the *exact* same system, but at least one you can mold to your liking over time and after learning more about the world.

    Think of your combat primary class like your crafting class.  You don't get locked into being a blacksmith forever in any game I've ever played, yet that takes just as long to properly master as it does to level your combat class and you may have grown to be known as THE blacksmith to visit.  
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    nagash said:
    I would never change my class even if you killed me ^^
    Killed?  or unkilled?
     >:) 


    Also...it seems the forums decided to post for me while I was away, repeating a post from way early in the AM.  I would blank them out, but not sure if it would impact the original...
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    Virtek said:
     
    Also...it seems the forums decided to post for me while I was away, repeating a post from way early in the AM.  I would blank them out, but not sure if it would impact the original...
    I think the forum had a bit of a blip about an hour ago.
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    Kratz said:
    Virtek said:
     
    Also...it seems the forums decided to post for me while I was away, repeating a post from way early in the AM.  I would blank them out, but not sure if it would impact the original...
    I think the forum had a bit of a blip about an hour ago.
    I'll just imagine it means that the forum itself likes me and wanted to wave hello in its own special way
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