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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Toxicity in forums. What is it and how we can prevent it?
ArchivedUser
Guest
Hey there Ashlings/Ashians/Embers/Ashes Community members,
I've been looking around the forums and really enjoying the way everything is moving along and how the community is growing. The help given to other players is really nice and reminds me of online communities of old.
However, a constant reminder/warning that I see often is also how forums that start out good usually end up being toxic. I've really only personally been in 1 forum that I consider toxic, and I was wondering what this Toxicity means to you and perhaps, as a community, work towards avoiding this.
I've been looking around the forums and really enjoying the way everything is moving along and how the community is growing. The help given to other players is really nice and reminds me of online communities of old.
However, a constant reminder/warning that I see often is also how forums that start out good usually end up being toxic. I've really only personally been in 1 forum that I consider toxic, and I was wondering what this Toxicity means to you and perhaps, as a community, work towards avoiding this.
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Comments
By negative criticism, I do not mean rude and vulgar criticisms that are hostile.
I mean criticism about a problem particular game mechanic pointing out only the flaws without being able to come up with a suitable good suggestion. Criticism lacking in pointing out "positive qualities".
So a community, that starts coming in and accusing you as being a "hater" and "naysayer" because you don't like something in a game, instead of addressing your concerns/opinions is considered quite toxic to me since they are unaccepting of different views.
I would probably avoid that by:
Other then that carry on.
but tbh, i think the Toxicity will be more prevalent when Players in-game begin PKing a lot
True, in-game toxicity can happen as well. I've personally never really played an online where I've been majorly affected by in game toxicity in a manner that I couldn't just mute/ignore the person or people though. (I must say I have a high threshold for toxicity though.).
There's a high probability of high level players making disposable alts (thereby somewhat circumventing the corruption system) to gank new players leading to a really uninviting and possibly toxic newbie zone.
Best thing we can do is remind each other that all opinions matter, especially at this stage of development. We need all the insight we can get from all types of players to create this world that we will be in. If you disagree with someone, try to point out your views and experience. No need for anyone to tell anyone else that they need to find a new game just because they don't like their idea. Nobody is necessarily wrong
Unless you don't want full stealth on Rogues. In that case, you are wrong
I do like the term "Embers" !
The rest were pretty normal forums to me. They might have strayed slightly towards the toxic/non-toxic ends of the spectrum but I considered them pretty normal.
The level of toxicity is pretty subjective so I was curious how the other community members felt about it.
But that'll might also have the problem of not allowing players who chose not to back during the crowdfunding portion to be part of the growing community. I've got friends who're fans of the game but not fans of crowdfunding (yes, they exist!
In 9th grade, my best friend and I entered a 3-legged race. I thought we were a shoe-in to win because we were both fast runners - award winning runners.
But, it was a disaster.
Afterwards, my friend explained that it was a disaster because he's a cross country runner and I'm a sprinter. We don't run the same way. And that the whole point of a 3-legged race is finding the balance between us.
It can be really tough to have cordial discussions when we assume that everyone plays MMORPGs the same. Or that everyone should be playing the way we do.
It's likely to be really contentious when we're all supposed to be playing together - especially on the same servers.
Hardcores think that casuals have made MMORPGs too easy. Casuals think hardcores are elitist.
On the EQNext forums, the quickest way to get people banned was to try to discuss how PvPers and PvErs could get along on the same server. Suggestions from either camp would cause the other to fly into a rage because the values of each playstyle were so different...especially regarding the concept of consent.
I am casual and non-competitive. If I join a group, it's really mostly because I like to socialize, not because I want to kill stuff or efficiently achieve stuff. In MMORPGs, I generally prefer to socialize outside of an adventuring group. But, people who form adventuring groups in order to kill uber mobs and overcome hardcore challenges tend to say that people who solo don't socialize at all.
It can be difficult to be understanding when it feels like an opposing view is threatening the way we like to play. If we accommodate that playstyle, we will be ruining the fun of playing an MMORPG. And sometimes it's just difficult to understand why people would even want to play differently than we do.
Why is everyone running off to go kill the next mob when we haven't finished exploring every nook and cranny of the dungeon?
Oh! Because they are hardcore Killer/Achievers while I'm a casual Explorer/Socializer.
It's easy to think, "MMORPGs were more fun when they catered to my playstyle. It's those other playstyles that have caused the horrible state that MMORPGs are in today. If people would just understand what I'm saying, I will be able to convince them why they should be open to adopting my playstyle - because my playstyle is really what MMORPGs are supposed to be about."
I think a lot of times the response to that is, "Why are you trying to convert me to your playstyle? That's not fun. I just want to be able to play the way I like to play!"
To me, we have a bunch of different playstyles -with different values- and we're all supposed to play on the same servers and try to form adventuring groups with each other. I think the best groups have like-minded members - similar playstyles.
Casuals are likely to get along in a group of casuals rather than mixed in with hardcores, so I like to examine the different playstyles.
But, there are people who scoff at labels.
At the end of the day, we're all just trying to have fun.
We all hope that everyone enjoys playing the game.
But, we won't all have the same values and perspectives of what enjoying the game should entail. Those differing views may feel threatening - especially when they are opposing views.
We might have difficult discussions, but I think the faith that we have to have is that most of us just want everyone here to have fun and enjoy life...even when we disagree about the specifics of game design and game mechanics.
I think aswell toxity comes from the frustration of answering new player questions - but their new and that's ok that they are excited too - so when it comes down the line and we have ton of repeats from new players just stick on your customer service smile and answer them politely and let them be hyped for the game
Haha, but yes. I'm in total agreement for understand that everyone plays differently and try our best not to feel threatened by opposing views.
The objective (in my opinion) isn't to convert others to a particular playstyle/opinion but to get people to acknowledge that the differences in opinion can co-exist.
These kind of disagreements are more apparent when a particular design decision by the devs is deemed as detrimental to one style of play.
I personally think that's the decision that the Devs will have to make and it would be more ideal to focus such discussion on the decision on the devs rather than trying to use those decision to mark down/invalidate other player's playstyles, or if unavoidable, just ignore those post.
For example, a game design decision was made to turn the game that negatively affects the player's ability to solo, and a solo player posts their unhappiness about the decision, you could:
- Acknowldge the points (if any) made by the OP, Provide the points made by the devs on why they had to make that decision that might explain the views more.
- Say that solo players shouldn't be surprised since this is an MMOrpg after all, learn to group.
- Ignore the post and move along and let the developers answer it if it's a problem.
#2 would the the one that usually causes the most anger in my opinion and hence, the least ideal response.Haha, yes. This... or ignore the post and post in other threads that'll make you happy. Or simply post where the topic has already been answered.
Not everyone will want to go all CSR and smile at every repeated topic, but we should at least strive not to go in to that and scold the poster for asking the question.
Great points. As you have both touched on, I believe some of the fundamentals are about the ability to empathize and keep an open mind. The old expression "walk a mile in another person's shoes" comes to mind.
It is indeed difficult for people to imagine that another gamer might have a completely different view on how a particular genre of game should be played. I certainly have strong views on certain aspects of games, especially MMORPGs, so I always have to keep myself in check.
I think you can extrapolate what you said to society at large. It is difficult to imagine the experiences, beliefs, cultures, idiosyncrasies, etc. of another person. It is so much easier to just assume anyone who thinks differently is an enemy; thus, the quick resorts to aggression and name calling. Ad hominem attacks on character are all too common in any debate or discussion, especially in political and religious debates. I feel it has become worse in recent times but maybe I have rose colored goggles for the past.
We'd be generating so much positivity!
Well, okay, maybe if every post was an essay it'd upset people but a few good ones here n' there are enjoyable for patient readers. Everyone else can just skip or read the TLDR.
Haha. Yeah, I failed the challenge - but I had tons more to say. lmao.
Hmmn. So, I agree 90%. But, I think it's commonly a challenge to work through our own biases. Even to recognize our own biases.
A few weeks ago, someone in these forums was saying that he should be able to solo any content - including raids. ???!!??
People on the EQ and WoW forums have argued that they should be able to solo dungeons and obtain raid gear - even though they have no intention of raiding!!
And I'm left bewildered, wondering how a person can solo a raid and why people think they should have raid gear if they aren't going to be in a raid.
Again, I often encounter people who feel that questing needs to be so challenging that we are forced to group..otherwise we will just solo all encounters. If we don't need to group, no one will group.
I typically respond that I don't want to feel I need to group to play the game, I group because I like to socialize, but there should be plenty of stuff for me to solo.
My analysis of that is that Killer/Achievers socialize as a by-product of being forced to group in order to kill uber mobs. If they can kill uber mobs solo, socializing isn't a high enough interest/value for them to interact with other players.
Whereas killing and achieving isn't a high enough value for me to group. I generally prefer to socialize outside of a group - though I like to group if I can find like-minded folk who are casual and more focused on hanging out together while we explore than we are on efficiently clearing out a bunch of uber mobs.
To prevent that #2 response, people would first have to recognize that soloing doesn't mean soloers rarely interact with other players. And I think it can be challenging for them to recognize that because they wouldn't socialize if they could solo everything.
On the EQNext forums a few years ago, someone suggested the game should support gender-fluidity. I was all, yes, the game should allow for trans-men and trans-women.
Male models should be able to choose female pronouns during char create and female models should be able to choose male pronouns during char create.
The response was that's insufficient. There needs to be non-binary options.
And I was all, "Why? That's just asking for too much work from the devs when it's already asking them to support trans-people. Having those [binary] options covers everything. Include xim and zher or they...but that's all we need! Whatever that doesn't cover is too small of a population to worry about. A transperson isn't going to be constantly switching genders back and forth."
It took several days for me to even grasp the concept of gender-fluidity because I'd never heard of it before.
But, once I understood the concept, I was championing having the game support gender-fluidity.
I think it's easy to fall into that kind of biased thinking - maybe just human nature:
Corruption seems perfectly sufficient to me, it should be sufficient for you, too.
The Fan Stories forum seems perfectly sufficient for me, it should be sufficient for you, too.
Really understanding what someone with a different playstyle/perspective is asking for and why can be challenging.
And then trying to offer solutions that fit their playstyle/perspective can be really challenging, too.
We don't have a lot of dev responses to what we post here.
But, yeah, I think these posts of yours are really helpful.
Chewy food for thought.