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Toxicity in forums. What is it and how we can prevent it?

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    lexmax said:
    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    What will help is if they change the forums to only those with active game accounts are able to post. We are months and months away from that, so it will be a wild West atmosphere till then. 
    I'm guessing they will change the forum permissions when they link with kickstarter.
    I don't think so.  At this point they probably don't want to limit the ability of potential players to become part of the community.
    I'm not meaning forum permissions to stop public posting. I'm thinking along the lines of enabling features such as upvotes and downvotes in the way of Reddit and the like.
    I know it was a long time ago, but in the old days of the forum we had something similar called "Agree/Disagree."  

    Ah, but it was a golden age back then....
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    lexmax said:
    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    What will help is if they change the forums to only those with active game accounts are able to post. We are months and months away from that, so it will be a wild West atmosphere till then. 
    I'm guessing they will change the forum permissions when they link with kickstarter.
    I don't think so.  At this point they probably don't want to limit the ability of potential players to become part of the community.
    I'm not meaning forum permissions to stop public posting. I'm thinking along the lines of enabling features such as upvotes and downvotes in the way of Reddit and the like.
    That would be a nice feature.  Are you suggesting that by multiple downvotes the trolls would be suppressed?  The only downside I can see is that someone could easily abuse the up/down vote function.  It would be another toy for the trolls.
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    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    What will help is if they change the forums to only those with active game accounts are able to post. We are months and months away from that, so it will be a wild West atmosphere till then. 
    I'm guessing they will change the forum permissions when they link with kickstarter.
    I don't think so.  At this point they probably don't want to limit the ability of potential players to become part of the community.
    I'm not meaning forum permissions to stop public posting. I'm thinking along the lines of enabling features such as upvotes and downvotes in the way of Reddit and the like.
    That would be a nice feature.  Are you suggesting that by multiple downvotes the trolls would be suppressed?  The only downside I can see is that someone could easily abuse the up/down vote function.  It would be another toy for the trolls.
    My thought would be to algorithmically limit the number of daily up/down votes each member gets to spend. You may remember how toxic Youtube and Reddit were a few years back before these kinds of self-governance algorithms were introduced?
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    lexmax said:
    My thought would be to algorithmically limit the number of daily up/down votes each member gets to spend. You may remember how toxic Youtube and Reddit were a few years back before these kinds of self-governance algorithms were introduced?
    How'd you get to be so wise for an elf? 
    ;)
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    lexmax said:
    My thought would be to algorithmically limit the number of daily up/down votes each member gets to spend. You may remember how toxic Youtube and Reddit were a few years back before these kinds of self-governance algorithms were introduced?
    How'd you get to be so wise for an elf? 
    ;)
    Observing Dwarves?  :)
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    lexmax said:
    My thought would be to algorithmically limit the number of daily up/down votes each member gets to spend. You may remember how toxic Youtube and Reddit were a few years back before these kinds of self-governance algorithms were introduced?
    How'd you get to be so wise for an elf? 
    ;)
    You only think I'm wise @Rumbleforge, cause you're as pissed as I am :wink:
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    lexmax said:
    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    What will help is if they change the forums to only those with active game accounts are able to post. We are months and months away from that, so it will be a wild West atmosphere till then. 
    I'm guessing they will change the forum permissions when they link with kickstarter.
    I don't think so.  At this point they probably don't want to limit the ability of potential players to become part of the community.
    I'm not meaning forum permissions to stop public posting. I'm thinking along the lines of enabling features such as upvotes and downvotes in the way of Reddit and the like.
    That would be a nice feature.  Are you suggesting that by multiple downvotes the trolls would be suppressed?  The only downside I can see is that someone could easily abuse the up/down vote function.  It would be another toy for the trolls.
    My thought would be to algorithmically limit the number of daily up/down votes each member gets to spend. You may remember how toxic Youtube and Reddit were a few years back before these kinds of self-governance algorithms were introduced?

    Not that I would but I can already see how people could circumvent around the limitation, I think the best way is to have enough active moderators and good use of the flagging mechanics of the forum
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    @AutumnWillow
    @Dygz

    I applaud you for mentioning "toxicity" in forums, as well as games in general!
    It can be a huge problem, as I'm sure you're aware.  And the main question(s) proposed were: What is it, and how can we prevent it?

    I've thought about this long and hard as we see it constantly pop up in the media, college campuses, and politics (not just the United States of America).  Basically, toxicity has to do with one main topic: Offense.

    On one side, people promote offense (considered as "trolling" and the like) with or without knowing it, and on the other side people get "triggered" or offended.

    There's two ways to handle it:
    First, and foremost:  Being offended is a choice.  Whether or not you agree with it because of how strongly you feel, it 'is' a choice, and it matters how we (collective 'we') respond to it.
    Secondly: Remember that this is all about a game!  Especially one centered around one of the four "Pillars", as Steven said, to this game: Meaningful Conflict.
    I might be the nicest guy in the world in real life, but if I'm portraying a fictional character in the game (can be extended to a role-played character on the forums, too) who is a racist, sexist, biggoted, homophobe, villain, terrorist, etc., who wants to promote the genocide of all Dwarven and Orc females and do my best to promote their genocide in game... (*cough* That death guy in the forum promoting death, undeath, etc. in all cases) ...well, guess we're going to have to deal with it! And probably with simulated violence and murder.
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    Caelron said:

    First, and foremost:  Being offended is a choice.  Whether or not you agree with it because of how strongly you feel, it 'is' a choice, and it matters how we (collective 'we') respond to it.


    I agree with everything you said, except for this particular part I have a slight issue of distinction. 

    I dont think being offended is a choice, I think it is a reaction which is largely involuntary and happens before most rational thought can take place. 

    However, I do think we can choose how to handle this reaction given time to process it.  

    But sadly, a great deal of "toxicity" can happen when we respond to that reaction before we take the time to mentally process it. 
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    what this Toxicity means to you and perhaps, as a community, work towards avoiding this
    bla bla bla bla
    no one cares
    get a life

     :p 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Not that I would but I can already see how people could circumvent around the limitation, I think the best way is to have enough active moderators and good use of the flagging mechanics of the forum
    Unless you have enough mods on around the clock, these are going to mount up and backlog. The trolls will use the flagging system to not only flood the moderation queue, but to attack legitimate posters. Algorithmic systems are by no means perfect, but they don't suffer the same limitations and complement the work of the mods and admins.
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    I have so much to say about this I don't know where to begin.  I feel like many others here have covered most of the individual topics that I would also include, so I won't repeat them (you have all received :+1: - thank you for being a "buncha good'uns", as my momma might say).  The only thing I would like to add to the discussion of reporting/ignoring trolls is the idea of de-escalation.

    Like toddlers, who don't yet know how to express the complex emotions they're feeling with their limited vocabulary - some trolls can actually be made to realize that they are perceiving a situation incorrectly.  I have had interactions on gaming forums where reasoned, well explained debates have turned once-trolls into productive community/guild members.

    This kind of transformation takes a great amount of patience from the rest of the community, obviously; but more importantly, it requires that community to have a discerning eye with regards to the identification of trolls.  Is this troll really an Internet Troll™®, or are they a player who's having a really bad day/week IRL, perceives that their favorite activity/class/ability has just been yanked out from under them, and just stomped into the forums to have a tantrum?

    Report/ignore is, as has been mentioned, the best tactic for the true troll; but using this tactic on the not-really-a-troll player could make them feel ostracized, maybe even turning them toxic - a true troll in the making.

    In essence, remember that the these trolls are humans, and some might not beyond redemption.   ;):+1:
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    In essence, remember that the these trolls are humans, and some might not beyond redemption.   ;):+1:
    Firstly [Insightful]
    Secondly, [                 ]
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    lexmax said:
    Not that I would but I can already see how people could circumvent around the limitation, I think the best way is to have enough active moderators and good use of the flagging mechanics of the forum
    Unless you have enough mods on around the clock, these are going to mount up and backlog. The trolls will use the flagging system to not only flood the moderation queue, but to attack legitimate posters. Algorithmic systems are by no means perfect, but they don't suffer the same limitations and complement the work of the mods and admins.
    Just make it to where the ability to flag can get taken away and abuse of it by international spamming flags can get you banned, but you can also put in automatic spam checks that stop people from being able to spam out flags, by temporarily making it to where they can't.

    Use mods to take care of trolls and use software to keep trolls from making the mods job harder

    Still tough don't get me wrong it does take more then just mods but there is no better way to get rid of a troll then simply there being someone that can remove them from the forum,

    If a troll gets no reaction from the community of the then being flagged and kicked out by a mod then troll get no "kicks " from trolling here and goes away.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017

    I share the view that this community has begun in a most positive way and that is something to behold, be proud of and maintained. People have been made to feel welcome, shown generosity with simple things like Sigs and metaphorically high fived when they've earned forum badges.

    If I repeated the above 4 lines to my friends in sport or work, they'd laugh their faces off because they wouldn't understand. We've created this community because we do understand what it is to be in a toxic community. I've also been fortunate enough to be a member of a great online community and that was due to the server community rather than the wider game community.

    As the game's popularity grows, more and more will flood here and with some good eggs there'll come bad, especially if those who aren't game owners are allowed to continue to post here, ie, forum access isn't linked to a sub.

    If the server communities work as hard at establishing themselves as we in the wider community have then there's every chance that the community will be successful at not being toxic. There'll always be those who troll or are outspoken but they'll be easily dealt with in a smaller community(like a server).

    I believe it's healthy to have this discussion early on, but let's not worry about ghosts that don't exist. Lets enjoy what we have and deal with problematic "forumers" a post at a time. :)    

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    Just avoid it or ignore it? Quite simple if you ask me. Get some tough skin.
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    Looks like it's already time to get our game on :)
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    lexmax said:
    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    What will help is if they change the forums to only those with active game accounts are able to post. We are months and months away from that, so it will be a wild West atmosphere till then. 
    I'm guessing they will change the forum permissions when they link with kickstarter.
    I don't think so.  At this point they probably don't want to limit the ability of potential players to become part of the community.
    I'm not meaning forum permissions to stop public posting. I'm thinking along the lines of enabling features such as upvotes and downvotes in the way of Reddit and the like.
    I think the Reddit system is inherently flawed because you cant see how many of the votes are up vs down votes.

    A post comment could have 500pnts but have 1000 people vote on it, half up-vote, half down-vote. But to the community it just looks like it's a popular post.

    I could get behind this model if both agree and disagree votes are tallied and shown.
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    lexmax said:
    Looks like it's already time to get our game on :)
    Heh heh, in general there are some raised emotions here and there. Some participants are getting a little too into the emotional aspect of things but the majority of people have stated their agreements/disagreements relatively fine.  :D
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    They need to get a mute,

    1hour, 1 day then a week. After that if they get reported agian they should get a ban.

    But it should be really toxic and commenly used by the toxic player.

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    lexmax said:
    Looks like it's already time to get our game on :)
    Heh heh, in general there are some raised emotions here and there. Some participants are getting a little too into the emotional aspect of things but the majority of people have stated their agreements/disagreements relatively fine.  :D
    Oh a little different perspective never hurt anyone right?
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    Karthos said:
    lexmax said:
    Looks like it's already time to get our game on :)
    Heh heh, in general there are some raised emotions here and there. Some participants are getting a little too into the emotional aspect of things but the majority of people have stated their agreements/disagreements relatively fine.  :D
    Oh a little different perspective never hurt anyone right?

    That is my belief yes. 
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    I'll openly say, I've not noticed the toxicity anywhere... with one exception, where a forceful campaign was being held to stereotype and pigeon-hole certain types of players.

    I attempted to raise it to the posters attention and was cut down and received back handed insults and personal attacks rather than an attempt to address the point I was raising. 

    So now I just choose to not have them in my life. :)

    Simple.

    However learning how to get to that stage is a long life process.

    When to just put a foot down and just say, 'I'm done with you' when you're filled with frustration at someone's lack of ability to grasp what you're saying is just annoying at best. 

    *Le sigh* 

    I ought to say I'm only able to be at this stage because of high levels of drugs I have to take to stabilize my brain chemistry, without them i'd be a raging monster...

    Maybe we ought to insist that all new members take drugs?
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    Self-reflection is also key.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    How can we prevent toxicity? 
    Self reflection works, but sadly even though it's a skill that I personally have honed over the years to a point where I am my biggest critic, it's not a skill most other strangers have or would be expecting to use in a public forum.

    *le sigh*
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I beg to differ.
    Projection is not self-reflection.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Dear Dygz, you can disagree with my self analysis all you want, that's fine by me....
    I would ask though, how is :
    I beg to differ.
    Projection is not self-reflection.
    Constructive and relevant to this thread? 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I'll let you figure that out for yourself.
    I remember what happened the last time I answered one of your questions... I'm not falling for that again.
    <3<3
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    It simple all you need to do is have one leader and anyone who disagrees is met with a hammer to the face ^^
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    Exactly!
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