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My thoughts on Cleric in the livestream30/06/2017

Hi Community,

I am a support main and as happy as I am with the information we received, I am also disappointed in their design approach to the Cleric class.

Here's what I think.

Cleric dealing damage and healing is a great mechanic. It adds more value to their gameplay and a risk vs reward element.

However, making this sort of gameplay as the "base" gameplay of a cleric has now pigeonhole clerics to be a dps/healer class. I cannot imagine any augments that will take this sort of mechanic out of a dps/healer role and into a pure support role.

I would have much prefer that the base class of cleric be mainly support. And if you augment them with a fighter/rogue/summoner/archer/mage class, you will gain new mechanics to be a dps/healer.

But now that the cleric is a dps/healer from the start, it would not make sense for any new augment to change a healer to pure support. Going healer/healer should in theory only amplify the dps/healing mechanic. Going healer/bard, healer/tank might bring about a pure support role, but it just wouldn't make much sense since a bard and tanks aren't pure supports to begin with.

As someone who enjoys playing pure support roles, I feel left out. Will intrepid see this post and maybe re-vision their cleric gameplay?
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    I'm fine with it. I'm sure the dps portion of the class is primarily a means to allow for a faster PvE role when farming. Since you prefer full support, I am sure you know the pitfalls of leveling while playing a full support PC.
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    it's not the base idea of the class it's just what they are using to show off at PAX. in the future we will make a meta when we know the skills and subclass abilities, but I do understand what you are getting at.
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    I'm fine with it. I'm sure the dps portion of the class is primarily a means to allow for a faster PvE role when farming. Since you prefer full support, I am sure you know the pitfalls of leveling while playing a full support PC.
    Well... you're fine with it because you don't want to play a pure support role. But I was under the impression that we were going back to the classic "trinity" roles. Tank/healer/dps.

    You're absolutely right about old games making it difficult for healers to grind pve content solo. That's why we see alot of hybrid dps/healers in newer games. But why did they do that? Because they want people to solo content. Not play together. 

    But what I miss most about healer class is being a pure healer. The talk about bringing back the nostalgia of MMORPG, bringing back the trinity, bringing back community and group play, bringing back choice and variety, bringing back risk vs reward.

    I'm willing to take the risk and hardship that comes with being a pure support, because I find the role rewarding and fun to play.

    I'm not saying everyone has to play pure support. If they choose to augment their healer with fighter/rouge/archer/mage/summoner, then they can choose to do so. They can choose to solo if they want. But with the way it's set up right now, anyone that wants to play pure support is not allowed to exist within the game.

    That's why I'm disappointed. I was looking for a MMORPG that would fulfill my nostalgia of going pure support which is hard to find in new MMORPGs.


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    nagash said:
    it's not the base idea of the class it's just what they are using to show off at PAX. in the future we will make a meta when we know the skills and subclass abilities, but I do understand what you are getting at.
    Thanks. I thought I should get it out there before they finalize anything. It would be heartbreaking if the healer class was a dps/healer hybird.
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    nagash said:
    it's not the base idea of the class it's just what they are using to show off at PAX. in the future we will make a meta when we know the skills and subclass abilities, but I do understand what you are getting at.
    Thanks. I thought I should get it out there before they finalize anything. It would be heartbreaking if the healer class was a dps/healer hybird.
    I agree it would be a huge problem it's like having and tanky mage something just don't mix 
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    I think they should be able to do some damage in self-defense but not competitive damage. More focused around blinding opponents with light or smiting them with some divine attack.
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    nagash said:
    nagash said:
    it's not the base idea of the class it's just what they are using to show off at PAX. in the future we will make a meta when we know the skills and subclass abilities, but I do understand what you are getting at.
    Thanks. I thought I should get it out there before they finalize anything. It would be heartbreaking if the healer class was a dps/healer hybird.
    I agree it would be a huge problem it's like having and tanky mage something just don't mix 
    forgot to add "apart from undead" as that is their main enemy in D&D 
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    nagash said:
    nagash said:
    it's not the base idea of the class it's just what they are using to show off at PAX. in the future we will make a meta when we know the skills and subclass abilities, but I do understand what you are getting at.
    Thanks. I thought I should get it out there before they finalize anything. It would be heartbreaking if the healer class was a dps/healer hybird.
    I agree it would be a huge problem it's like having and tanky mage something just don't mix 
    I think they should be able to do some damage in self-defense but not competitive damage. More focused around blinding opponents with light or smiting them with some divine attack.
    @nagash Initially I felt this way, but I like their concept of ... equivalent exchange*?

    What I mean @Valentines is that (to me at any rate) the damage they do is what results in or powers the heals/healing that clerics do/will do to some extent.
    To me it is a welcome variation to healing coming directly or solely from a divine source. jmho

    *yes, this was a Full Metal Alchemist anime reference  :)
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    Keth said:
    nagash said:
    nagash said:
    it's not the base idea of the class it's just what they are using to show off at PAX. in the future we will make a meta when we know the skills and subclass abilities, but I do understand what you are getting at.
    Thanks. I thought I should get it out there before they finalize anything. It would be heartbreaking if the healer class was a dps/healer hybird.
    I agree it would be a huge problem it's like having and tanky mage something just don't mix 
    I think they should be able to do some damage in self-defense but not competitive damage. More focused around blinding opponents with light or smiting them with some divine attack.
    @nagash Initially I felt this way, but I like their concept of ... equivalent exchange*?

    What I mean @Valentines is that (to me at any rate) the damage they do is what results in or powers the heals/healing that clerics do/will do to some extent.
    To me it is a welcome variation to healing coming directly or solely from a divine source. jmho

    *yes, this was a Full Metal Alchemist anime reference  :)
    To me, it felt like it was trying to be too much at the same time. It had that vamp heal which I feel should be a mixed class ability. 
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    Keth said:
    @nagash Initially I felt this way, but I like their concept of ... equivalent exchange*?

    What I mean @Valentines is that (to me at any rate) the damage they do is what results in or powers the heals/healing that clerics do/will do to some extent.
    To me it is a welcome variation to healing coming directly or solely from a divine source. jmho

    *yes, this was a Full Metal Alchemist anime reference  :)

    I like the idea of equivalent exchange. I hope it's a variant with a secondary class rather than just the primary class. I'm not against the mechanic itself, it's a great mechanic and has depth to it. I just hope it's not the core mechanic of a primary healer. It's has the vibe of dps/healer hybrid written all over it, which I've grown to disdain in recent MMORPGs.
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    I think they should be able to do some damage in self-defense but not competitive damage. More focused around blinding opponents with light or smiting them with some divine attack.
    I'm not against this either. Most old school MMORPG had this, where healers can spec a few points into self defense if they choose to.

    I guess I might have jumped the gun alittle. We don't know if this is just one part of the healer skill tree(dps/healer skills), and there would be an avenue to select that pure healer role I crave. I'll wait patiently for more information release.
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    nagash said:
    To me, it felt like it was trying to be too much at the same time. It had that vamp heal which I feel should be a mixed class ability. 
    Me too. When they talked about tanks, mage and archers, those roles and skills were very classical/traditional of the arch type they represent.

    The spin on the healer role removed it from it's classical arch type into a more dps/healer hybrid which makes me worried. I mean... they could still innovate the "roles", like the tank, while keeping it true to it's core arch type.

    My other thoughts on the archer and mage is that they seem very lack luster compare to the tank. Though that is somewhat outside this topic.
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    We'll see when they come up with skill trees. The dps side might just be an option for the cleric. You might still be able to go full support.
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    The idea of aoe life leeching (balancing) as one of the first few basic Cleric ability sits oddly with me. But mainly just because my idea that Leeching itself feels like an evil kind of magic. 

    Hopefully they just wanna throw some of the more interactive spells into the mix early on so the public gets a general sense of their "not just sit back and heal" type idea. 

    Either that or get used to clerics of Ashes being the masters of life. And a sub-archetype of Cleric being the more peaceful/Healy one (Cleric bard maybe). Heh. 

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    The idea of aoe life leeching (balancing) as one of the first few basic Cleric ability sits oddly with me. But mainly just because my idea that Leeching itself feels like an evil kind of magic. 

    Hopefully they just wanna throw some of the more interactive spells into the mix early on so the public gets a general sense of their "not just sit back and heal" type idea. 

    Either that or get used to clerics of Ashes being the masters of life. And a sub-archetype of Cleric being the more peaceful/Healy one (Cleric bard maybe). Heh. 

    thats what I said it just feel like the opposite of a healer 
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    The idea of aoe life leeching (balancing) as one of the first few basic Cleric ability sits oddly with me. But mainly just because my idea that Leeching itself feels like an evil kind of magic. 

    Hopefully they just wanna throw some of the more interactive spells into the mix early on so the public gets a general sense of their "not just sit back and heal" type idea. 

    Either that or get used to clerics of Ashes being the masters of life. And a sub-archetype of Cleric being the more peaceful/Healy one (Cleric bard maybe). Heh. 

    I would definitely do that if healer/bard was the peaceful healer. haha. My dream of full support is still strong.
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    If I mix anything with Bard, it'll be mage. Nothing like a good old Arcane Trickster. Race would have to be the shortest thing possible.
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    Hi Community,

    I am a support main and as happy as I am with the information we received, I am also disappointed in their design approach to the Cleric class.

    Here's what I think.

    Cleric dealing damage and healing is a great mechanic. It adds more value to their gameplay and a risk vs reward element.

    However, making this sort of gameplay as the "base" gameplay of a cleric has now pigeonhole clerics to be a dps/healer class. I cannot imagine any augments that will take this sort of mechanic out of a dps/healer role and into a pure support role.

    I would have much prefer that the base class of cleric be mainly support. And if you augment them with a fighter/rogue/summoner/archer/mage class, you will gain new mechanics to be a dps/healer.

    But now that the cleric is a dps/healer from the start, it would not make sense for any new augment to change a healer to pure support. Going healer/healer should in theory only amplify the dps/healing mechanic. Going healer/bard, healer/tank might bring about a pure support role, but it just wouldn't make much sense since a bard and tanks aren't pure supports to begin with.

    As someone who enjoys playing pure support roles, I feel left out. Will intrepid see this post and maybe re-vision their cleric gameplay?
    Yea but you can still spec a some of your spells into your action bar, so maybe you choose to only use to support ones?
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    I'm fine with it. I'm sure the dps portion of the class is primarily a means to allow for a faster PvE role when farming. Since you prefer full support, I am sure you know the pitfalls of leveling while playing a full support PC.
    Well... you're fine with it because you don't want to play a pure support role. But I was under the impression that we were going back to the classic "trinity" roles. Tank/healer/dps.
    The devs are actually going more towards classic D&D visions of the classes.
    Definitely not classic MMORPG trinity.
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    Dygz said:
    I'm fine with it. I'm sure the dps portion of the class is primarily a means to allow for a faster PvE role when farming. Since you prefer full support, I am sure you know the pitfalls of leveling while playing a full support PC.
    Well... you're fine with it because you don't want to play a pure support role. But I was under the impression that we were going back to the classic "trinity" roles. Tank/healer/dps.
    The devs are actually going more towards classic D&D visions of the classes.
    Definitely not classic MMORPG trinity.
    I never played D&D before. Can you elaborate what we can expect from a D&D healer?
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    @Shirikuryu D&D healers have access to all sorts of magic. While inherently evil, necromatic spells and drain spells are on their casting list. They sound closer to the Pathfinder cleric than the D&D cleric in that they use a staff to channel their spells (essentially their holy symbol). I would have preferred they allowed us to choose our primary weapon because now to get the character I want, I'm going to have to mix with fighter or tank.
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    From d&d wiki

    Creating a Healer

    7fc0971e9910aca38a42ac8deeffc2edjpg
    A Healer stopping to save a fallen soldier

    The healer provides aid to members of their adventuring company, the soldiers of their religion, or to the alliance to which they are pledged. When a battlefield is strewn with wounded allies or an expedition team’s members are sorely hurt, a healer cures the injuries of the faithful and those who have allied themselves with the side of good. A healer might accept a commission to escort a company or war band on a dangerous mission, making themselves available to cast divine protection and offer divine healing. The healer is much revered for their services, and they may ask their companions for daily praise to their deity---or at least an equal share in any reward garnered after the successful conclusion of the adventure or military action.

    As a devoted user of healing and the divine, you have access to cleric spells. However, you cannot choose any spell that does damage or causes the target(s) to make a saving throw.

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    @Shirikuryu D&D healers have access to all sorts of magic. While inherently evil, necromatic spells and drain spells are on their casting list. They sound closer to the Pathfinder cleric than the D&D cleric in that they use a staff to channel their spells (essentially their holy symbol). I would have preferred they allowed us to choose our primary weapon because now to get the character I want, I'm going to have to mix with fighter or tank.
    I think the weapons in Pax is just to showcase. They mention flexibility in weapon choice so you can be a healer with a dagger for example.

    I also never played pathfinder. Ill look it up to see where they are drawing their inspiration from.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    @Shirikuryu Ok... now try looking up the effects of channel energy and your character alignments effect on it. Pathfinder alternative channeling also gives way to darker uses. You can channel negative energy as an evil character and harm good people.

    Also, in D&D 3.5, the cleric has Heavy Armor Proficiency. This can qualify them as a front line fighter too. Use of feats such as channel smite and guided hand also allow them to be front line fighters. While they do not put out the dps a fighter does, they are still given the option.

    You're debating my favorite class in TTRPGs. My main PC is a lvl17 Cleric (Steel Valkyrie archetype)

    EDIT: Oh yea. *drops the mic* Not trying to be an ass btw. I hope you're right about the weapon thing :open_mouth:
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    IThrowSexyParties said:
    @Shirikuryu Ok... now try looking up the effects of channel energy and your character alignments effect on it. Pathfinder alternative channeling also gives way to darker uses. You can channel negative energy as an evil character and harm good people.

    Also, in D&D 3.5, the cleric has Heavy Armor Proficiency. This can qualify them as a front line fighter too. Use of feats such as channel smite and guided hand also allow them to be front line fighters. While they do not put out the dps a fighter does, they are still given the option.

    You're debating my favorite class in TTRPGs. My main PC is a lvl17 Cleric (Steel Valkyrie archetype)

    EDIT: Oh yea. *drops the mic* Not trying to be an ass btw. I hope you're right about the weapon thing :open_mouth:
    Well... im not debating your class... your free to play your style of cleric. I personally would rather go the pure support role than a hybrid dps. Im just worried that i wont have that option to fullfill my roleplaying needs of a full support.

    A hybrid is more self sufficient and doesnt need to rely on others. Theres obvious benefits to that. I would even agree that your idea of cleric is more viable than my idea of a cleric. But im not looking for max/min viable build. Im looking for freedom to customize my character to my exact specifications, even if i might gimp my survivability and damage in the process.
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    Hopefully as more information becomes available, you'll be able to meet your RP dreams. I would think primary cleric, secondary mage might give you the extra buffs you need to magic to make your heals extra powerful. Either that or summoner. Cleric/Cleric might ever run well for you. I'm sure the game will have a lot of skill options.
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    I also looked up the pathfinder skill for cleric. I believe you when you say they are taking inspiration from pathfinder. I do rmb then mentioning that they play that board game.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    I hear you @Shirikuryu, and I sure there are others who feel the same way.  But, to be fair, in the early podcasts (and maybe on the KS page too?), the devs described the cleric as being a master over life, and death.  When I heard that, it brought up visions of something akin to WoW's Shadow Priest.  While it's not as dps oriented as a Shadow Priest, I envisioned that the base class would have some type of hybridized healing/dps mechanic.  

    I honestly have no problem with it, and I don't believe that you players will be pigeonholed to play as a a hybrid class, if they choose not to.  Granted, I have no hard information to go off of, but with weapons being agnostic and playing a huge role in how classes are played, as well as the choices we'll have within the horizontal progression, I'm sure you can fashion a cleric "close" to what you wish for.

    Does that mean that the dps component intrinsic in the clerics healing skills will be completely negated?  I can't honestly say.  But, it'll be interesting to see how things progress from here.  Remember, this game is still early in development, so everthing we've heard so far is subject to change.

    But, if you ask me, I'm totally fine with how they envision the cleric.  Even with the dps, it's still not a dps class.  It is a full support class...just with at little dps flavor, added to the heals, as opposed to seperating the two, as most other games do.  But, I understand that everyone has their preferences.  I hope that, however it turns out, you still give it a try.  You never know.  It might not be that bad.   :p
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    Hopefully as more information becomes available, you'll be able to meet your RP dreams. I would think primary cleric, secondary mage might give you the extra buffs you need to magic to make your heals extra powerful. Either that or summoner. Cleric/Cleric might ever run well for you. I'm sure the game will have a lot of skill options.
    This is true. I was so worried i forgot to consider that the cleric in pax is an incompete product.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    so, is the only healer in the game a portion (some abilities/skill tree/etc) of the cleric, and the only tank a portion of the tank class? I find it hard to beleive they want to acheive a holy trinity system with only 0.5 tank class and 0.5 healer class out of 8.

    For those who never played it, I think WS had the best take on dps/support role. Where every single class could either dps, or tank/heal. With multiple build you can switch on instantly in between fights, you could have healing or dps spec for the appropriate content.

    I guess here you could take a secondary class (augments?) to fill that second build you need, but still, having only 1 tank, 1 healer and 6 dps feels really wierd to me.

    But again, they said most encounter were open world, and we all know open world encounter does not require any class specialisation because it is just a mindless zerg of unlimited respawns. So no tank/healer would be necessary anyway.
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