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My thoughts on Cleric in the livestream30/06/2017

124

Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    lol Don't get me wrong, @Shirikuryu.  I don't mean to say that I think @Dygz is being willfully untruthful, or deceptive.  I think he believes in what he posts.  

    Having said that,  I also believe he sometimes communicates in a way that "he" understands the context of what he saying, while presuming that others understand EXACTLY where he's coming from.  Which, in turn, results in a lot of "back and forth".  Just a theory, on my part, though.  Dygz can most assuredly speak for himself, in that regards, and may disagree with my sentiments.

    That's an interesting observation, freespiryt.
    I like to play with words in a way that people may not always catch my full meaning.
    And it may not always be clear to me what threw others off - depending on the response.
  • freespiryt 

    Yeah, I could not think of many examples as this was the one & only time I really debated with dygz personally (I tend to not try to debate him no more, doesn't mean i hate him). But I do read many of his post and as you say, they do have the feel of someone wanting to debate for the sake of debating in it.

    Why? He gives no real concessions or compromise with the person he's debating with lol. Which is a great asset to have if you're negotiating with a terrorist. :)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Though dygz also is helpful as he defended my position in this post. Though I wonder if he only defended me to debate the other person, or did he genuinely cared about me? XD

    I genuinely care about everyone in the forums.
    But, I care about accuracy most.
    Which is why I love sharing dev quotes, where possible.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Dygz said:
    @freespiryt
    I did spell out exactly what I meant:
    A Tank/Mage should be able to "throw" a fireball or lightning bolt by using them as augments for Taunt. Tank/Mage should be able to augment Lasso with Ice Prison.
    lol I read what you posted, trust me.  Which is why I was surprised that you seemed to disagree with my post, which I made in response to yours, solely because I disagreed with your phrasing, when describing ability usage.

    The reason being, because I could see that it could lead to confusion...as it did with @Shirikuryu.  People reading that post would either miss seeing your "air quotes", or just miss the intentions behind those air quotes, all together. 

    Granted, perhaps I too, fell prey to assuming that you would pick up on the nuance of my post.  That would be my fault, and I can readily admit that.  That was one of the meanings behind my post, referencing my "analogous" theory.

    But, I believe we're on the same page now....I think, lol.  
  • freespiryt 

    Yeah, I could not think of many examples as this was the one & only time I really debated with dygz personally (I tend to not try to debate him no more, doesn't mean i hate him). But I do read many of his post and as you say, they do have the feel of someone wanting to debate for the sake of debating in it.

    Why? He gives no real concessions or compromise with the person he's debating with lol. Which is a great asset to have if you're negotiating with a terrorist. :)
    LOL LOL LOL

    That's why I'm cool with @Dygz, and have no problem conversing with him.  I have a family member who is just like the way you described.  He's a salesman/businessman, to a tee.  When debating, even if his position is fundamentally flawed, he won't budge an inch, and when presented with evidence to the contrary, he'll give some ambiguous turn of phraseology to sidestep, without acquiescing.  Not that every debate has to to have a "right" or "wrong", but even compromise seems to be out of the question, most times, lol.  May be engaging in a bit of hyperbole, here...but, not much.

    Not sure if Dygz is that bad, but having a family member like that, inures you, to some degree.


  • Ya know, before you start complaining about a class or getting disappointed in it, you should wait till it comes out and actually try playing it.  Only then can you fairly judge it.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    @freespiryt
    Whether a "Tank/Mage" should be able to "throw" a fireball or lightning bolt, or will be able to, are two completely different things.
    Your opening sentence threw me on my first read through, yeah.
    Seemed like a negation.
    But, then noticed on my 2nd read through that it didn't.

    I try to concede if you can convince me, but that might take a while. And is rare.  :p
    I am the epitome of a skeptic.
    But, again, that's why I love dev quotes, where possible.
  • Dygz said:
    I genuinely care about everyone in the forums.
    I don't believe this.

    On topic, I understand your initial impression of the cleric as i felt the same when i first listened to it. After listening to it again i have grown to like there plan. After listening to it again i did notice that all your abilities are support abilities even though they have a damage components. As other have said, i don't think the damage component sounds more like a nice to have and not something the party will rely on. The damage components give the support a little more they can think about as they cast there spells.

    Once again, as others have said, i'm sure you can kit yourself towards pure healing with ability, augment, and weapon choice. It does sound like they might be moving away from the fire hose burst healing though which i like but sure other do not. 

    After hearing about the cleric's abilities and the ranger's minimum range i'm really interested in how things will play out.
  • Dygz said:
    @freespiryt
    I try to concede if you can convince me, but that might take a while. And is rare.  :p
    Image result for aint nobody got time for that
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Ya know, before you start complaining about a class or getting disappointed in it, you should wait till it comes out and actually try playing it.  Only then can you fairly judge it.
    That could be said pretty much 99% of the post here. Everything is limited in information. Should we hold back our applause and boos until we get to play alpha end of 2018?

    Would you say the same thing to me if I said "Cleric class sounds amazing, I'm so hype."

    "Ya know, before you start cheering about a class or getting hype in it, you should wait till it comes out and actually try playing it.  Only then can you fairly judge it."

    I don't think you would frankly. If you're against negative attitudes towards development, how will the devs ever know how the community feels towards their approach? What's the point in having a forum if we shouldn't discuss anything that is still in speculation?

    I agree with you as I did with many others that, yes, this is still pre-alpha, pax-showcase and I should not expect this to be the final result. But to tell me not to bring up the complaint, period, does not address the concern and does not serve any purpose.
  • @freespiryt Ain't got nothin' better to do. :p
  • Dygz said:
    @freespiryt Ain't got nothin' better to do. :p
    lol Says you.   :p
  • Hi Community,

    I am a support main and as happy as I am with the information we received, I am also disappointed in their design approach to the Cleric class.

    Here's what I think.

    Cleric dealing damage and healing is a great mechanic. It adds more value to their gameplay and a risk vs reward element.

    However, making this sort of gameplay as the "base" gameplay of a cleric has now pigeonhole clerics to be a dps/healer class. I cannot imagine any augments that will take this sort of mechanic out of a dps/healer role and into a pure support role.

    I would have much prefer that the base class of cleric be mainly support. And if you augment them with a fighter/rogue/summoner/archer/mage class, you will gain new mechanics to be a dps/healer.

    But now that the cleric is a dps/healer from the start, it would not make sense for any new augment to change a healer to pure support. Going healer/healer should in theory only amplify the dps/healing mechanic. Going healer/bard, healer/tank might bring about a pure support role, but it just wouldn't make much sense since a bard and tanks aren't pure supports to begin with.

    As someone who enjoys playing pure support roles, I feel left out. Will intrepid see this post and maybe re-vision their cleric gameplay?
    Bard is more of a support class in D&D and Pathfinder class think
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Dygz said:
    You can CC or heal yourself all day solo, but you will not be able to solo that way because the mobs will still be alive when you run out of spell points.

    Whether or not you chose to put those skills on your bar is up to you, but don't complain when you can't do anything without someone holding your hand.
    Who says that all adventuring will be about killing stuff?
    Clerics should be able to solo and gain xp by Purging and healing and exploring rather than by killing stuff - if that's what they want to do.
    Just by seeing some of the questing you know they are putting in primarily pve kill quests typical of themepark mmos. There hasn't been anything that has shown that questing will be more open ended as you speak.

    Nothing. While I'm sure utility abilities will have their place. I'm not expecting them to steal the show and overshadow kill questing either in the open world.


    And mind you, I agree with you but so far Ashes aside from the nodes, has proven to still rely on common themepark quest designs.

    Aside from nodes folks don't expect them to reinvent the wheel on pve questing like Everquest Next. It's not happening.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    @Maquiame
    You are the only one thinking about stealing the show and overshadowing.
    Don't project your own zaniness on others. :p
  • Maquiame said:
    Dygz said:
    You can CC or heal yourself all day solo, but you will not be able to solo that way because the mobs will still be alive when you run out of spell points.

    Whether or not you chose to put those skills on your bar is up to you, but don't complain when you can't do anything without someone holding your hand.
    Who says that all adventuring will be about killing stuff?
    Clerics should be able to solo and gain xp by Purging and healing and exploring rather than by killing stuff - if that's what they want to do.
    Just by seeing some of the questing you know they are putting in primarily pve kill quests typical of themepark mmos. There hasn't been anything that has shown that questing will be more open ended as you speak.

    Nothing. While I'm sure utility abilities will have their place. I'm not expecting them to steal the show and overshadow kill questing either in the open world.


    And mind you, I agree with you but so far Ashes aside from the nodes, has proven to still rely on common themepark quest designs.

    Aside from nodes folks don't expect them to reinvent the wheel on pve questing like Everquest Next. It's not happening.
    In a separate debate, I believe @Dygz corrected me, in stating that Steven was wont to categorize Ashes as a..."Themebox"...was it?

    As to the rest of the post, I'd prefer to keep my opinions to myself, and let Dygz debate the matter, as it seems to be directed his way.
  • Themebox. Yep.
  • Great that the argument has finally resolved and everyone agrees that Mages are the best.
  • Dygz said:
    @Maquiame
    You are the only one thinking about stealing the show and overshadowing.
    Don't project your own zaniness on others. :p
    Shush, you know what I was talking about lol
  • Maquiame said:
    Dygz said:
    You can CC or heal yourself all day solo, but you will not be able to solo that way because the mobs will still be alive when you run out of spell points.

    Whether or not you chose to put those skills on your bar is up to you, but don't complain when you can't do anything without someone holding your hand.
    Who says that all adventuring will be about killing stuff?
    Clerics should be able to solo and gain xp by Purging and healing and exploring rather than by killing stuff - if that's what they want to do.
    Just by seeing some of the questing you know they are putting in primarily pve kill quests typical of themepark mmos. There hasn't been anything that has shown that questing will be more open ended as you speak.

    Nothing. While I'm sure utility abilities will have their place. I'm not expecting them to steal the show and overshadow kill questing either in the open world.


    And mind you, I agree with you but so far Ashes aside from the nodes, has proven to still rely on common themepark quest designs.

    Aside from nodes folks don't expect them to reinvent the wheel on pve questing like Everquest Next. It's not happening.
    In a separate debate, I believe @Dygz corrected me, in stating that Steven was wont to categorize Ashes as a..."Themebox"...was it?

    As to the rest of the post, I'd prefer to keep my opinions to myself, and let Dygz debate the matter, as it seems to be directed his way.
    Having themepark quest designs has nothing to do with having sandbox aspects. It can be both at the same time.
  • Maquiame said:
    Dygz said:
    @Maquiame
    You are the only one thinking about stealing the show and overshadowing.
    Don't project your own zaniness on others. :p
    Shush, you know what I was talking about lol
    OK, Mr. Pot.
  • Maquiame said:
    Having themepark quest designs has nothing to do with having sandbox aspects. It can be both at the same time.
    lol  Kinda confused, seeing as how I don't see where I opined a statement, relating to quest designs, one way, or the other.  I just gave the category name, I was given, in turn.  But...ok?   :p
  • Maquiame said:
    Having themepark quest designs has nothing to do with having sandbox aspects. It can be both at the same time.
    lol  Kinda confused, seeing as how I don't see where I opined a statement, relating to quest designs, one way, or the other.  I just gave the category name, I was given, in turn.  But...ok?   :p
    I was confused from your post, forgive me then. I wasn't sure why you replied to me.
  • Maquiame said:
    Maquiame said:
    Having themepark quest designs has nothing to do with having sandbox aspects. It can be both at the same time.
    lol  Kinda confused, seeing as how I don't see where I opined a statement, relating to quest designs, one way, or the other.  I just gave the category name, I was given, in turn.  But...ok?   :p
    I was confused from your post, forgive me then. I wasn't sure why you replied to me.
    lol  All good.  No harm, no foul.
  • nagash said:
    it's not the base idea of the class it's just what they are using to show off at PAX. in the future we will make a meta when we know the skills and subclass abilities, but I do understand what you are getting at.
    I think he's saying that if you're playing Cleric/ you should be base support, then Cleric/cleric full support class, both with very minimal dps..
    and if you wanted to add dps into the picture you'd have to go;
    Cleric/mage
    Cleric/fighter
    Cleric/rogue
    Cleric/summoner
    Cleric/archer
    etc.. to have the dps side of things.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Iam still keeping my fingers crossed for my Hydromancer Cleric>mage, that uses water magic to damage and heal.
    The Chloromancer (Mage) was my favourite healing soul in RIFT although what you're describing sounds more like the Warden (Cleric) in that game..
  • Support isnt just buffs, debuffs and heals, damage also helps the group because it means the exposed duration to incoming damage is shorter.

    Especially the leech ground heal if interesting, when DPS guys get low on health they can pop their strongest (AoE) dmg skill or ultimate and instantly be healed by a percentage of the inflicted dmg. This means good DPS guys heal themselves more which allows the healer to focus more on the tank, keeping the buffs/debuffs up and dealing dmg.

    Sounds nothing like the boring back-line healer but more like a blood mage. Could be interesting to build a Cleric dmg dealer now I think about it.
  • Neviathan said:
    Support isnt just buffs, debuffs and heals, damage also helps the group because it means the exposed duration to incoming damage is shorter.

    Especially the leech ground heal if interesting, when DPS guys get low on health they can pop their strongest (AoE) dmg skill or ultimate and instantly be healed by a percentage of the inflicted dmg. This means good DPS guys heal themselves more which allows the healer to focus more on the tank, keeping the buffs/debuffs up and dealing dmg.

    Sounds nothing like the boring back-line healer but more like a blood mage. Could be interesting to build a Cleric dmg dealer now I think about it.
    Yeah, I'm not used to the idea of that skill falling under cleric. It sounds like a blood mage to me too. That was getting my nickers in a knot.

    I did interpreted the skill differently. I was thinking it was an active AoE field that would leech life from enemies and restore hp to ally based on the life leeched.

    Vs.

    A field that will give allies life leech depending on the damage they did within the field.

    If it was the later, i would consider it a zone buff instead of dps skill.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Damage also helps the group, but I would argue that damage itself does not fall under the support category. Everyone has damage. If damage = support. Then every single class is a support class. Yes, I can get the idea>kill mob faster = less damage received. But the idea of support is in the name, to aid someone else. The goal of any combat is to kill the enemy. Support goal is to aid the attacker in killing the enemy. Damage itself is the first goal and does not fall under aiding. 

    Like any sport game, the person making the goal would be the attacker. The person who assist the goal is the support. That's how I would classify support skills.
  • I understand your viewpoint. I will simply point out that they're making a game where the classes do have specific roles, rather than several classes being able to do a broad set of roles. As I understand it, I believe the Bard is the more support-focused class you're looking for, while the Cleric is (so far) the only real "Healer" class they have. As such, it will likely be, and remain, more healing focused than broadly supportive.

    I will throw in here that I really love what Rift began, and then developed, with their classes. Each class, now, can do all roles that are called for in a game, and all the roles are cogent within that class's archetype. So a Rogue tank tanks primarily with high levels of evasion, while a Mage tank tanks with lots of magic/shields/etc. It's a great concept that allows players to make "their" perfect class build; in short, it would allow you to make your Cleric support, rather than Heals/DPS or whatever. I don't see IS doing this, but I did want to point out a brilliant idea.
  • Isende said:

    So a Rogue tank tanks primarily with high levels of evasion, while a Mage tank tanks with lots of magic/shields/etc. It's a great concept that allows players to make "their" perfect class build; in short, it would allow you to make your Cleric support, rather than Heals/DPS or whatever. I don't see IS doing this, but I did want to point out a brilliant idea.
    This is how I envision the system to work too. If they have the option to go full support, I don't mind what path that took, I would walk that path with full confidence. 

    If bard is the "support" class. Then I am now a bard main! I just hope they at least leave 1 path out of the 64 paths to be a full support.
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