Looting rules just announced

ArchivedUser

What do you think of the looting rules?

LOOTING RULES
This one is cut and dry, but also important. We’re going traditional in our loot rules. The party leader sets the rules and can choose who will be the Lootmaster, let things play out Round-Robin, or go Need/Greed with dice rolls.

We’re also looking at a potential bidding system, which allows a player who wants an item to bid against another player who wants the item. Instead of rolling, the person willing to pay the most gold gets the item. That gold then goes into a pool which is split among the rest of the party members. A win, win situation for the entire group!

We realize most people just default to a Need/Greed system, but we’re all about player agency and choice in Ashes of Creation, and we want to make sure there are plenty of options for parties, friends, and guilds to choose from.

ArchivedUser

It seems nice gives players a choice what more games should strive for

ArchivedUser

This is why I like AoC's concept is becaus it's your own story. It's going to be very different for everyone 

ArchivedUser

What is meant by round robin?

ArchivedUser

Horrible looting rules.
I probably won't be grouping much if that's how loot's going to be handled.

ArchivedUser

I was kind of hoping for something different then the norm. Loot causes so many fights and issues to arise I was kind of hopeful for everyone getting their own loot individually so that no one is greedy or "ninja looting" but this is nothing that will change my mind on the game. 

ArchivedUser

Ninja Shadow said:

What is meant by round robin?

Round robin in some games means it just picks a party member at random.  In other games it means that it just picks the next player in group to give the loot to.  Kind of like going down the list.

ArchivedUser

@Sintu, @Dygz, @Ninja Shadow You guys have put my thoughts into words! It's a bit vague right now but it seems far too traditional. I'm hoping part II is where they talk about the fun stuff.

ArchivedUser

I was just in a game that had the loot bidding in dungeons, and it leads to some truly anti-social behavior if you are grouped with random people. I had one guy repeatedly outbid me on a piece of gear he didn't need, but knew that I needed for my build. Would just snap rebid, when asked about it said "I just wanted to see how much I could make you pay." If we have the incentive of gaining the gold split at the end, I plan to make everyone in random groups that I may be part of pay through the nose.
Edit: also just thought of a way that gold sellers would be able to transfer gold between accounts without raising flags. Go as a group of 2 into a dungeon you can faceroll. Have the gold seller bid 10000g on a worthless to them item, other person gets the gold.

ArchivedUser

I think needing one of each archetype for a party will inexorably lead to the elitist toxicity of demanding cookie cutter builds.

It's one thing for 8 to be the max in a party - and something completely other to suggest what is typically a small raid is so required that we should shouldbe looking for a moba if want to adventure in a party of 4.

ArchivedUser

Bidding system = GDKP, and I'm okay with that. Sometimes player's just don't have time to farm gold but want to run dungeons or raid. This system allows them to make some money doing the thing they love most. I fully support your bidding idea IS.

*Edit*
Though if bidding is inplace then you should be unable to bid on items that are not an upgrade to you, at least a drastic one. This would prevent some people from trolling others.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

I think needing one of each archetype for a party will inexorably lead to the elitist toxicity of demanding cookie cutter builds.

It's one thing for 8 to be the max in a party - and something completely other to suggest what is typically a small raid is so required that we should shouldbe looking for a moba if want to adventure in a party of 4.

And the inevitable "Does no one have a frickin bard available? We have to have a bard to open the 3rd door due to the song mechanics! I wanted to run 2 tanks and all mage party, but we can't do this content because we don't have (insert class ability here.)"

ArchivedUser

Love the idea. 

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

I was just in a game that had the loot bidding in dungeons, and it leads to some truly anti-social behavior if you are grouped with random people. I had one guy repeatedly outbid me on a piece of gear he didn't need, but knew that I needed for my build. Would just snap rebid, when asked about it said "I just wanted to see how much I could make you pay." If we have the incentive of gaining the gold split at the end, I plan to make everyone in random groups that I may be part of pay through the nose.
Edit: also just thought of a way that gold sellers would be able to transfer gold between accounts without raising flags. Go as a group of 2 into a dungeon you can faceroll. Have the gold seller bid 10000g on a worthless to them item, other person gets the gold.

That would definitely make for a great grief mechanic, but wouldn't the leader have to set that as a loot setting?  I know it would also be easy to drive up the price in a bidding war, and then drop out leaving the other party holding the bag, especially if they didn't intend to buy it.

ArchivedUser

Warkov said:

That would definitely make for a great grief mechanic, but wouldn't the leader have to set that as a loot setting?  I know it would also be easy to drive up the price in a bidding war, and then drop out leaving the other party holding the bag, especially if they didn't intend to buy it.

Well, since they have stated that their plan is to have loot be sellable and shy away from BOP/BOE mechanics, they could always just recoup their losses by selling it to someone else when done and back out in open world. I just see more problems than advantages to it.

ArchivedUser

Warkov said:

Ninja Shadow said:

What is meant by round robin?

Round robin in some games means it just picks a party member at random.  In other games it means that it just picks the next player in group to give the loot to.  Kind of like going down the list.

Well if that's the case it comes closest of the said options to what I was hoping for... which is what  @Sintu said

ArchivedUser

It all sounds good but not a huge fan of the bidding mechanic. Would hate to have to buy the loot I want that I just earned. I would rather have a very well balanced need and greed system that is better implemented vs what is out there now. I will no doubt be in a guild but no matter what there will be days you will end up in a pickup group. I can absolutely see the bidding mechanic as a exploit. It will definitely attract the wrong people. 

ArchivedUser

Mazikar said:

It all sounds good but not a huge fan of the bidding mechanic. Would hate to have to buy the loot I want that I just earned. I would rather have a very well balanced need and greed system that is better implemented vs what is out there now. I will no doubt be in a guild but no matter what there will be days you will end up in a pickup group. I can absolutely see the bidding mechanic as a exploit. It will definitely attract the wrong people. 

Indeed.  Say you join a "pug", but they all know each other, and already have a plan to drive up bidding on you, so are in essence funding the group for gear they don't want.

ArchivedUser

It is actually used as a tactic in some games as a carry mechanic to raise gold. Those being carried through the content are required to make certain minimum bids to fund the people who are carrying them.

ArchivedUser

@Warkov exactly, even worse they could take you down into a dungeon on need & greed while they farm what they need and then since they have the majority change it to the bid system when they get to the area where your loot will drop. It just sounds like too much trouble to police, better to just leave it out.

ArchivedUser

This is the kind of toxic behavior I'm concerned about. There have been significant advancements in looting systems since need/greed and these other traditional systems. I really hope Part II of this series will reveal systems that do not lead to ninja looting and other forms of toxic behavior. 

ArchivedUser

Yeah, I have always run screaming from any guild or group that has a system like DKP or similar in place. Other games have it that once the loot style for that dungeon has been set it can't be changed, shouldn't be a huge programming stretch to institute. While I have seen no indication of group/raid finder mechanic being proposed so far, one of the things I always do when joining such groups is check loot settings. There is always that one guy who thinks he is going to get over on everyone else by setting it to master loot, then running away at the end. And yes, I realize that is not usually the case when you have to form with people you know, just when randoms are recruiting in general and you say, what the hell, lets give it a go.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

Yeah, I have always run screaming from any guild or group that has a system like DKP or similar in place. Other games have it that once the loot style for that dungeon has been set it can't be changed, shouldn't be a huge programming stretch to institute. While I have seen no indication of group/raid finder mechanic being proposed so far, one of the things I always do when joining such groups is check loot settings. There is always that one guy who thinks he is going to get over on everyone else by setting it to master loot, then running away at the end. And yes, I realize that is not usually the case when you have to form with people you know, just when randoms are recruiting in general and you say, what the hell, lets give it a go.

One the things that worries me is if the group leader can change the loot rules without the party members noticing or accepting.  A lot of nefarious group leads will change the loot rules in the midst of a big fight when people aren't as likely to notice, and then abscond with the loot.

ArchivedUser

All things have a loophole. If its group locked they will just reform the group and its either leave or start paying. The thing of it is, no matter how well you plan it in just days the rotten eggs will find a way around it. Its not a game breaker by any means and it will make people make friends with the good people. It will just make pugs more dangerous and even less appealing to seasoned players. There is good in the mechanic but it just has more of an ability to be abused than most. 

ArchivedUser

Glad to see another blog post. I don't think they need to refine the wheel on looting aspects. Lootmaster, Need before Greed, etc is perfectly fine. There are many other out of game ways to handle loot by using lootmaster should a group wish, Loot Council, DKP etc.

ArchivedUser

I personally like the idea of the bidding system only if it is a "Blind Bid" system if not I would be forced to use another option (which I most definitely would).

By "Blind Bid" system I mean a few things.

#1: There is no way to rebid after you have submitted a bid so bid as high as your willing right off the bat.

#2: No one can see anyone else's bid amount except the winner's.

#3: If 2 or more people bid the same amount a "bidding war starts" but only for the top bids everyone else is locked out of the bid for that item because they were not the tied for the highest.

(E.G.)
here is the party makeup
Tom(Cleric), Ryan(Ranger), Sue(Bard), Jeff(Summoner), Lily(Mage), Rocky(Fighter), Brock(Tank), Han(Rogue). 

The Group fights a big boss and wins a really good leather chest piece drops, Ryan and Han really want it. Rocky being an agile fighter could benefit from it but doesn't want it that bad. Everyone figures they could sell it if they wanted to for about 25 gold, Ryan, Han and Rocky all bid 20 gold, everyone else bids 5-15 gold. No one can see what anyone bid until its all done.

Now everyone in the group sees a message in loot chat, "A bidding war has started between Ryan, Han and Rocky starting at 20 gold" at this point only those 3 players can bid now. The minimum bid is now 20 or more, Rocky decides he doesn't want to spend more then 20 so he either enters 20 again or withdraws from the bid. Han really wants it and puts in 30 Gold, Ryan wants to ensure he gets it and puts in 50 gold. The bidding is over everyone gets a message like "Ryan has won the bidding for the Leather chest for 50 gold" at which point Ryan loses 50 gold gets the chest and the remaining 7 split the 50 gold.

Everyone in the party only saw the prices at the end for the winning and when the bidding war started. No chance to rebid or see others bids mean you bid what you can afford and if you try to go too high your gonna end up buying the item yourself.

Hope I made that clear sorry if its really long just a lot of thought going through my head.

ArchivedUser

I'm fine with the group looting system. Maybe I missed it, but there was no mention of what happens if players hit the same enemy outside of a group. Who gets the loot? The one who did the most dmg, the one who got the first or the last hit?

ArchivedUser

I really really love that bidding system, its just perfect and everyone gets a cut from it then as wel.

ArchivedUser

Hmm I'd rather see a loot system similar to wow. They have an individual loot system that works pretty well (everyone has their own drops, but you can set a quality treshold for when need and greed should kick in).

The need and greed system will only let you roll need roll on items you could use, maybe something similar could be done for ashes? So you can only roll need on items that are upgrades, otherwise greed.

A master loot system is needed for guilds and raids, so that should also be included. Then you as a party/raid pick what loot system to use.

ArchivedUser

TheCouchNerd said:

The need and greed system will only let you roll need roll on items you could use, maybe something similar could be done for ashes? So you can only roll need on items that are upgrades, otherwise greed.

The permutations of 64 builds for a need/greed system that determined who in an 8 man group qualified over others would be horrendous or useless. Since any class can use any weapon, how do you determine whether or not that Mage/Mage, or the Mage/Thief, or the Thief/Cleric has priority. My two cents is that they should go with individual loot. Since there is no boe/bop mechanic it would guarantee that there is no bias, you could always just sell or give to an alt stuff you don't need. No 100 percent drops, random on whether you get loot, not determined by some weird participation score based off of healing, dps, or mitigation stats. Would this drive completionists crazy trying to get a specific piece of loot? Probably, but they should shy away from the whole mechanic of Primal Fire Boss always drops the fire essence I need to craft those Shoulders of Flame, and instead mix it up, let em drop something totally unrelated.

ArchivedUser

@UnknownSystemError yeah true and that every class can use any type of item. Now if they do like tier based or add some hidden ilvl. That could work? At least that system won't let you roll on low tier stuff. And I think we wont see an abundance of gear dropping anyway, it'll mostly be crafting materials.

Edit: Also I bet different classes will want different stats, so it should be doable to lock some classes out from rolling on gear. Like mages can't roll on agi/str stuff for their alt.