Any time you have to trust a random person hiding behind anonymity.. you are going to have a bad time. The only way to remove that is to remove rolling altogether. Then you are just running alongside people in dungeons. No real feeling of teamwork just a bunch of people out for themselves.
If the bid method is a dedicated loot rule system and not an optional selection in need/greed it would be a pretty awesome addition to make things less prone to corruption.
Less prone? What are you smoking? Other games have had bid systems and they are exploited to the hilt. Guilds sell loot runs. Gold sellers use the mechanic to transfer large amounts of gold as a way to launder. People grief other people by just running up bids on stuff they don't want, but know that other people need, so that they get a larger cut. Once you make it so other people in the group have a profit motive to making sure that loot goes for as much as possible you are guaranteeing all sorts of toxic, exploitive behavior. For a company dedicated to no pay to win mechanics, allowing geared players to run underlevel/undergear/low skill players through content for profit is going to bite them in the ass.
lol lay off the crack, man. I was merely saying that having a computer handle the items and money is safer than some random guy. I've seen guilds fall apart because the Lootmaster felt that legendary drop was more important than months of friendship with dozens of people.
I was kind of hoping for something different then the norm. Loot causes so many fights and issues to arise I was kind of hopeful for everyone getting their own loot individually so that no one is greedy or "ninja looting" but this is nothing that will change my mind on the game.
I've been screwed by Ninja looting before. I agree it should just be personal loot like in WoW Legion. You role the dice on your own loot if you get something that you don't need you link it in chat and say who wants it?!! Its easy, its fair, and its low drama.
Most easily abused: Loot Master Bid Need/Greed (Need/Need lol?) Round Robin
Most RNG dependent: Round Robin Need/Greed ---Not RNG after initial drop chance--- Loot Master and Bid
I hate RNG more than anything and thus I like Bid the most personally.
The worst form of Bid system is the blind system that was suggested earlier. A scammer only needs to over bid a couple times and then everyone must assume they will do it at any time (if not every time) and it pushes up the bids from other people because you can't see what other people really thought the item was worth. A scammer can spend an extra 200g on a few items worth 50g at the start of a run and increase the bids on all items by 25-50g. Even if you try to talk it out to get around the scammer the looting will turn into a game of MAFIA where everyone goes 'I bid 10g' in chat when they really bid 50g. It's even worse for someone who actually needs an item than Need/Greed.
Bidding is not flawless but it's better than playing the RNG game twice or relying on the honesty of other's.
first time poster i have to say i agree with most everyone's opinions on looting as there can be good and bad with each. i liked lexmax's proposal best. I also like the special deals option for loot in BDO (any loot above a certain grade automatically goes up on the market and the sales is split between party members- would be more for people NOT looking for upgrades). However, i feel the problem is and has been the gaming community.
My first MMO was FFXI when it released. Say what you will about mechanics and whatnot, but there was definitely a sense of community in that game. Most of it due to the forced grouping activities and such. It brought people together to accomplish common goals. People had better manners and were held more accountable for their actions because of it as well. I feel this game is trying to bring that back.
I think when games started auto forming groups to run content, and then moved to grouping people from different severs as well, the anonymity allowed others to grief and abuse mechanics to benefit themselves. Anymore, all anyone ever cares about in a game is themselves. I mean, why help some random person out with what they need when you will likely not see them again, let alone remember their name 5 minutes after the run? Why be fair to anyone when you can sever hop or change your name once your rep has been run into the dirt?
Regardless of what system is used in the end, only we as the community will either make it work or not. Everyone has their own goals in playing any MMO. Is yours money? Chances are, you are the one that would exploit a bidding system or Need everything. Maybe the smaller servers and having to actually make a group to do dungeons will allow that "random" to be much less so, and the chances of that drop that you let him have two weeks ago can actually benefit you during this run...
The need and greed system will only let you roll need roll on items you could use, maybe something similar could be done for ashes? So you can only roll need on items that are upgrades, otherwise greed.
The permutations of 64 builds for a need/greed system that determined who in an 8 man group qualified over others would be horrendous or useless. Since any class can use any weapon, how do you determine whether or not that Mage/Mage, or the Mage/Thief, or the Thief/Cleric has priority. My two cents is that they should go with individual loot. Since there is no boe/bop mechanic it would guarantee that there is no bias, you could always just sell or give to an alt stuff you don't need. No 100 percent drops, random on whether you get loot, not determined by some weird participation score based off of healing, dps, or mitigation stats. Would this drive completionists crazy trying to get a specific piece of loot? Probably, but they should shy away from the whole mechanic of Primal Fire Boss always drops the fire essence I need to craft those Shoulders of Flame, and instead mix it up, let em drop something totally unrelated.
"Probably, but they should shy away from the whole mechanic of Primal
Fire Boss always drops the fire essence I need to craft those Shoulders
of Flame, and instead mix it up, let em drop something totally
unrelated."
That is insane as Zhevras not dropping hooves every time, since each one naturally has four! Lame idea.
Firstly I'd like to say it was nice to see the thought behind many of the posts in this thread. I will add my 2 cents for posterity. The idea is simply to ensure that first refusal is given where it is most essential, for game and community progress. ie game progress driven rather than player desire driven.
Prioritised need refusal system: 1. Node upkeep usage - Some loot should be necessary for the node maintenance as we should be here at the node (community) behest firstly. Community loot for us (military/religious/economic/scientific) should be more important than personal loot for me. This is imperative to get away from the me me me mindset and return to a community mindset. 2. Direct skill usage - Build similarity get 1st refusal on all loot tagged as harmonic with their build tags. 3. Indirect skill usage - Any artisan skill progress that require specific harmonic loot 'components' get 2nd refusal. 4. Achievement usage - those people with specific loot requirements in their achievements completion get 3rd refusal. 5. Trophy usage - those people with a vacant slot for specific loot items in their home display get 4th refusal. 6. Other usage - Loot master, combat, divine intervention or gold bidding with opt out for those who aren't bothered (military/religious/economic/scientific solutions).
I liked ESO because there was ZERO loot drama, other than the broken drop rates. That was based on individual and personalised loot. Sharing is a good thing, but modern culture has nothing to do with sharing. It is an alien concept for far too many people. We are driven and taught be be selfish and put ourselves before everyone else in both school and work now. Modern culture is forced to compete rather than cooperate. Many will happily share spoils...as long as its something they dont want. Alas many people think they are just as entitled to everything as anyone else. Even without functional value, loot still has economic and cosmetic value. So a priority system has to be in place without personalised loot.
I understand where Steven is coming from with the need for cooperation and community spirit and even communication. I have no doubt the players will settle nodes and get to know each other. They will verbally reach agreements over time and establish the foundations of community. Treachery, mistrust and ambivalence with be replaced with trust and friendship. These communities will also establish truce with their neighbours and grow into village, town, cities. Through cooperation, civilisation will grow and advance, as it did in the very dawn of civilisation when humanity abandoned the law of the jungle for mutual prosperity. Highly unique jigsaw pieces will form adjacent to compatible communities they can knit with. But there will be no civilisation to begin with...it an organic thing that takes time. So I suggest this as a stop gap until its not needed.
'In situ' biome specific communities build cultural identities specific to their locality. No one understands the gifts and pitfalls of their home better than the locals. They are individuals, with unique requirement, in unique surroundings. They are the foundation stones and building blocks of civilisation. They are like a tree that plants roots and grows in a specific way, in a specific place at a specific time. They cannot be slapped together any more than a pile of cement, wood and brick can be called a building. They can not be imported and exported because doing so destroys the relationships and expectations that already exist and bonds that took an age to grow. Doing so destroys the personal identities and social agreement upon which cultural identity is made.
"Probably, but they should shy away from the whole mechanic of Primal
Fire Boss always drops the fire essence I need to craft those Shoulders
of Flame, and instead mix it up, let em drop something totally
unrelated."
That is insane as Zhevras not dropping hooves every time, since each one naturally has four! Lame idea.
"Probably, but they should shy away from the whole mechanic of Primal
Fire Boss always drops the fire essence I need to craft those Shoulders
of Flame, and instead mix it up, let em drop something totally
unrelated."
That is insane as Zhevras not dropping hooves every time, since each one naturally has four! Lame idea.
Or bears/wolves/etc that don't have a liver.
I always think it's dumb for animals to drop money or items. How did the wolf I just killed drop a sword?
I think the bidding system may be the best of the options, but I have two issues with it: 1. You have to pay for loot that you earned through participation. 2. People with large bankrolls will have an advantage, while having equal participation.
Instead of in game currency, a completely different item can be used to bid with (dkp). Everyone starts with the same amount at the beginning of the raid and uses it on items they wish to acquire, and when the group is dissolved everyone goes back to zero. Or... The dkp is earned as tokens by some means, (raiding, quests, daily logins, etc) and can be saved and used to bid on loot when the player chooses.
I always think it's dumb for animals to drop money or items. How did the wolf I just killed drop a sword?
Depends on the item and the monster. A large monster could have swallowed a sword or have one stuck in it's side. A wolf could have easily swallowed a ring or something. Also if you think about dungeons then the monster's loot table is really just the mechanic by which you are scouring the dungeon for the loot of less proficient adventurers.
I was just in a game that had the loot bidding in dungeons, and it leads to some truly anti-social behavior if you are grouped with random people. I had one guy repeatedly outbid me on a piece of gear he didn't need, but knew that I needed for my build. Would just snap rebid, when asked about it said "I just wanted to see how much I could make you pay." If we have the incentive of gaining the gold split at the end, I plan to make everyone in random groups that I may be part of pay through the nose. Edit: also just thought of a way that gold sellers would be able to transfer gold between accounts without raising flags. Go as a group of 2 into a dungeon you can faceroll. Have the gold seller bid 10000g on a worthless to them item, other person gets the gold.
See? This is why you're going to make a great alpha / beta tester. You breaking things now will save the rest of the community from itself after launch.
This is the only system I have not had experience with but have heard/read about.
Bidding, round robin, lootmaster, FFA........All can and have been exploited by less than altruistic players. I would like to think this wouldn't happen in AoC but you always ALWAYS have to factor to the lowest common denominator. A sad but real truth.
Honestly, the only loot system I have played that I have had zero problems with is ESOs system. Not saying they did everything right but looting is something they did "get". (basically everyone loots the bodies and gets their OWN chance at something with the ability to trade within group). This is pretty much what @lexmax has proposed.
"Probably, but they should shy away from the whole mechanic of Primal
Fire Boss always drops the fire essence I need to craft those Shoulders
of Flame, and instead mix it up, let em drop something totally
unrelated."
That is insane as Zhevras not dropping hooves every time, since each one naturally has four! Lame idea.
Or bears/wolves/etc that don't have a liver.
I always think it's dumb for animals to drop money or items. How did the wolf I just killed drop a sword?
Personally, I tend to enjoy the trend a lot of newer games have gone in where everyone gets personal loot. While I understand that in the game world you wouldn't wander across a monster who has several hidden compartments filled with single pieces of cool gear that you really only loot one of so everyone gets one... I think it rewards both group and anyone that helps in general for tackling the challenge.
With that said, in conjunction to a group loot type situation, it could be possible that tackling larger foes or lieutenants could also provide some sort of alternate loot for anyone involved (some form of currency perhaps) where if you have enough you can use that currency on maybe some alternate currency vendor. Though I imagine with the player-driven everything that would be part of this game such vendors may have no place.
Just a random theorycraft blurb from the solo tending person who still works well with groups.. but realizes nobody ever wants to actually start or run them anymore unless a guild is involved.
Gold for loot? Sounds like pay to win especially if we have gold sellers and most always do. I wold rather have personal loot and rool for items liek mounts and pets and toys and other non combat related items.
Gold for loot? Sounds like pay to win especially if we have gold sellers and most always do. I wold rather have personal loot and rool for items liek mounts and pets and toys and other non combat related items.
AuctionHouse? sounds like p2w with all these Goldsellers nowadays.
but joke aside i prefer personal loot too, because its less drama. (its kinda boring but the least abusivly thing)
this system isnt whaat i would prefer but im more than willing to give it a try. if it doesnt work then i have faith they will change it, im new to the forum but from what ive read the devs take their players seriously. isnt the point of testing a new and progressive game like this to try new things for the better or worse?
So what happens if the bid is lower than the vendor price or will that be the minimum? People could just use money to make money. *throws cash at all items and auctions them for 20% more than they bid*
You are free to throw "even more cash" to get the item (it's why it's called bidding), so I see no problem with this.
You are also free to go with the groups that don't use bidding system if you prefer not to use it.
You are also free to form your own groups and set the bidding system you want to use.
On another post Unkownsystemerror stated that Personal looted was rejected. Did not feel it was necessary to start another Loot discussion so I will just post it here.
Well the loot systems from your blogs need vs greed, loot master and round robin (also the bidding system but not mentioning it since I have no prior experience with that type of loot system) come with inherit problems. I am talking about the standard versions of them. I guess you could add smart game mechanics to those loot systems To solve some issues.
Without rehashing all the issues and the pros and the cons I would like to say that these systems can make for nightmare situations.
Ounce the game goes live and if you were to use the standard versions of these systems you will start to see feed back on these systems that is kind of negative. Think Personal Loot will be the best answer to those issues. But it is a virtual reality maybe these systems could be used with smart game mechanics or a totally different one.
I did not list any specific examples cause ounce the game goes live you will see what I am talking about but then again you might make this systems work.
For me as does everything in AOC , it lends itself towards really building real communities with communication at the heart. These traditional looting mechanics tend to lead in this direction. Having said that this is all Alpha and Im sure intrepid will be monitoring and if neccessary will tweak or even introduce a new mechanic if the conditions are right for it.
Let us be honest and admit that groups of people will complain about parts, if not all, of the mechanics used across the board. The whole "...you can't please everyone..." thing, right.
I would obviously prefer the most fair and balanced loot rules possible, but unless everyone gets 1 of everything that's not a reality. Primary Class focused drops would be nice; the fighter gets first go at the weapon, tank at armor and so forth, but there would be a ton of things to work out for the mechanic too.
Unfortunately no matter how loot is done some of the audience will think it sucks. I just want IS to stay true to their vision, I'll play with what they give me.
How will the xp work in a guilds will we all get the same xp after kill or will the players with the most hits get more ?
About looting I think it a good idea what they have with the items. But I do believe everyone should get little money at the end if it the monster who drop coin's
Comments
lol lay off the crack, man. I was merely saying that having a computer handle the items and money is safer than some random guy. I've seen guilds fall apart because the Lootmaster felt that legendary drop was more important than months of friendship with dozens of people.
Loot Master
Bid
Need/Greed (Need/Need lol?)
Round Robin
Most RNG dependent:
Round Robin
Need/Greed
---Not RNG after initial drop chance---
Loot Master and Bid
I hate RNG more than anything and thus I like Bid the most personally.
The worst form of Bid system is the blind system that was suggested earlier. A scammer only needs to over bid a couple times and then everyone must assume they will do it at any time (if not every time) and it pushes up the bids from other people because you can't see what other people really thought the item was worth. A scammer can spend an extra 200g on a few items worth 50g at the start of a run and increase the bids on all items by 25-50g. Even if you try to talk it out to get around the scammer the looting will turn into a game of MAFIA where everyone goes 'I bid 10g' in chat when they really bid 50g. It's even worse for someone who actually needs an item than Need/Greed.
Bidding is not flawless but it's better than playing the RNG game twice or relying on the honesty of other's.
My first MMO was FFXI when it released. Say what you will about mechanics and whatnot, but there was definitely a sense of community in that game. Most of it due to the forced grouping activities and such. It brought people together to accomplish common goals. People had better manners and were held more accountable for their actions because of it as well. I feel this game is trying to bring that back.
I think when games started auto forming groups to run content, and then moved to grouping people from different severs as well, the anonymity allowed others to grief and abuse mechanics to benefit themselves. Anymore, all anyone ever cares about in a game is themselves. I mean, why help some random person out with what they need when you will likely not see them again, let alone remember their name 5 minutes after the run? Why be fair to anyone when you can sever hop or change your name once your rep has been run into the dirt?
Regardless of what system is used in the end, only we as the community will either make it work or not. Everyone has their own goals in playing any MMO. Is yours money? Chances are, you are the one that would exploit a bidding system or Need everything. Maybe the smaller servers and having to actually make a group to do dungeons will allow that "random" to be much less so, and the chances of that drop that you let him have two weeks ago can actually benefit you during this run...
That is insane as Zhevras not dropping hooves every time, since each one naturally has four!
Lame idea.
I will add my 2 cents for posterity.
The idea is simply to ensure that first refusal is given where it is most essential, for game and community progress.
ie game progress driven rather than player desire driven.
Prioritised need refusal system:
1. Node upkeep usage - Some loot should be necessary for the node maintenance as we should be here at the node (community) behest firstly.
Community loot for us (military/religious/economic/scientific) should be more important than personal loot for me.
This is imperative to get away from the me me me mindset and return to a community mindset.
2. Direct skill usage - Build similarity get 1st refusal on all loot tagged as harmonic with their build tags.
3. Indirect skill usage - Any artisan skill progress that require specific harmonic loot 'components' get 2nd refusal.
4. Achievement usage - those people with specific loot requirements in their achievements completion get 3rd refusal.
5. Trophy usage - those people with a vacant slot for specific loot items in their home display get 4th refusal.
6. Other usage - Loot master, combat, divine intervention or gold bidding with opt out for those who aren't bothered (military/religious/economic/scientific solutions).
I liked ESO because there was ZERO loot drama, other than the broken drop rates.
That was based on individual and personalised loot.
Sharing is a good thing, but modern culture has nothing to do with sharing.
It is an alien concept for far too many people.
We are driven and taught be be selfish and put ourselves before everyone else in both school and work now.
Modern culture is forced to compete rather than cooperate.
Many will happily share spoils...as long as its something they dont want.
Alas many people think they are just as entitled to everything as anyone else.
Even without functional value, loot still has economic and cosmetic value.
So a priority system has to be in place without personalised loot.
I understand where Steven is coming from with the need for cooperation and community spirit and even communication.
I have no doubt the players will settle nodes and get to know each other.
They will verbally reach agreements over time and establish the foundations of community.
Treachery, mistrust and ambivalence with be replaced with trust and friendship.
These communities will also establish truce with their neighbours and grow into village, town, cities.
Through cooperation, civilisation will grow and advance, as it did in the very dawn of civilisation when humanity abandoned the law of the jungle for mutual prosperity.
Highly unique jigsaw pieces will form adjacent to compatible communities they can knit with.
But there will be no civilisation to begin with...it an organic thing that takes time.
So I suggest this as a stop gap until its not needed.
'In situ' biome specific communities build cultural identities specific to their locality.
No one understands the gifts and pitfalls of their home better than the locals.
They are individuals, with unique requirement, in unique surroundings.
They are the foundation stones and building blocks of civilisation.
They are like a tree that plants roots and grows in a specific way, in a specific place at a specific time.
They cannot be slapped together any more than a pile of cement, wood and brick can be called a building.
They can not be imported and exported because doing so destroys the relationships and expectations that already exist and bonds that took an age to grow.
Doing so destroys the personal identities and social agreement upon which cultural identity is made.
1. You have to pay for loot that you earned through participation.
2. People with large bankrolls will have an advantage, while having equal participation.
Instead of in game currency, a completely different item can be used to bid with (dkp). Everyone starts with the same amount at the beginning of the raid and uses it on items they wish to acquire, and when the group is dissolved everyone goes back to zero. Or... The dkp is earned as tokens by some means, (raiding, quests, daily logins, etc) and can be saved and used to bid on loot when the player chooses.
Bidding, round robin, lootmaster, FFA........All can and have been exploited by less than altruistic players. I would like to think this wouldn't happen in AoC but you always ALWAYS have to factor to the lowest common denominator. A sad but real truth.
Honestly, the only loot system I have played that I have had zero problems with is ESOs system. Not saying they did everything right but looting is something they did "get". (basically everyone loots the bodies and gets their OWN chance at something with the ability to trade within group). This is pretty much what @lexmax has proposed.
With that said, in conjunction to a group loot type situation, it could be possible that tackling larger foes or lieutenants could also provide some sort of alternate loot for anyone involved (some form of currency perhaps) where if you have enough you can use that currency on maybe some alternate currency vendor. Though I imagine with the player-driven everything that would be part of this game such vendors may have no place.
Just a random theorycraft blurb from the solo tending person who still works well with groups.. but realizes nobody ever wants to actually start or run them anymore unless a guild is involved.
All for a basic system and player interaction there after!
but joke aside i prefer personal loot too, because its less drama. (its kinda boring but the least abusivly thing)
You are also free to go with the groups that don't use bidding system if you prefer not to use it.
You are also free to form your own groups and set the bidding system you want to use.
Again, no problem with this whatsoever.
Well the loot systems from your blogs need vs greed, loot master and round robin (also the bidding system but not mentioning it since I have no prior experience with that type of loot system) come with inherit problems. I am talking about the standard versions of them. I guess you could add smart game mechanics to those loot systems To solve some issues.
Without rehashing all the issues and the pros and the cons I would like to say that these systems can make for nightmare situations.
Ounce the game goes live and if you were to use the standard versions of these systems you will start to see feed back on these systems that is kind of negative.
Think Personal Loot will be the best answer to those issues. But it is a virtual reality maybe these systems could be used with smart game mechanics or a totally different one.
I did not list any specific examples cause ounce the game goes live you will see what I am talking about but then again you might make this systems work.
also what do you mean by no 100 prcent drops?
I got completely lost on your post could you translate it to noob please?
For me as does everything in AOC , it lends itself towards really building real communities with communication at the heart. These traditional looting mechanics tend to lead in this direction. Having said that this is all Alpha and Im sure intrepid will be monitoring and if neccessary will tweak or even introduce a new mechanic if the conditions are right for it.
Cheers Lex
I would obviously prefer the most fair and balanced loot rules possible, but unless everyone gets 1 of everything that's not a reality. Primary Class focused drops would be nice; the fighter gets first go at the weapon, tank at armor and so forth, but there would be a ton of things to work out for the mechanic too.
Unfortunately no matter how loot is done some of the audience will think it sucks. I just want IS to stay true to their vision, I'll play with what they give me.
Having multiple versions of loot rules is great the group can decide what they want and it can't be changed once set without reforming the group.
The bidding could be good would be nice to have as one of the options of available loot rules.
The idea for blind loot sounds like it could be a good idea and limit miss use.
About looting I think it a good idea what they have with the items. But I do believe everyone should get little money at the end if it the monster who drop coin's