Looting rules just announced

ArchivedUser

And also to add to it. Nothing is stopping them from having individual, need or greed, master looting and bidding. The party/raid leader could choose the loot system and he/she could only change it out of combat. A loot system change could also trigger a ui warning to party members.

ArchivedUser

Lethality said:

As an aside, I'm not sure where you guys are getting "all groups MUST have one of each archetype!" I read it as they want the option for that to be possible (by not limiting the group size to say, 5.)  But of course you're not going to need every class, and there will be utility crossover between them, especially with secondary classing the way it's shaping up.

"If people just want to play with four others, they can always play their favorite MOBA. The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party."

ArchivedUser

Gothix said:

Just saw the info on loot rules. I must admit I quite like that bidding system.

It's great as an option, and in a group of friends It will function amazingly.
I guess random groups can go with default need / greed if they don't like other options.

I share with friends. I don't bid with friends.
I bid against strangers I don't trust and care nothing about.

ArchivedUser

I really really like the idea of the bidding system.

ArchivedUser

In-game p2w.

ArchivedUser

I am really loving what @lexmax has suggested for a loot system. The scaled individual loot system sounds like music to my ears. The toxicity in game communities that comes from fighting over who gets what loot is just exhausting, and the fact that the gear that is looted won't be BOP also means that the people's ability to trade with each other if they don't like what they got won't be taken away. 

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

What do you think of the looting rules?

LOOTING RULES
This one is cut and dry, but also important. We’re going traditional in our loot rules. The party leader sets the rules and can choose who will be the Lootmaster, let things play out Round-Robin, or go Need/Greed with dice rolls.

We’re also looking at a potential bidding system, which allows a player who wants an item to bid against another player who wants the item. Instead of rolling, the person willing to pay the most gold gets the item. That gold then goes into a pool which is split among the rest of the party members. A win, win situation for the entire group!

We realize most people just default to a Need/Greed system, but we’re all about player agency and choice in Ashes of Creation, and we want to make sure there are plenty of options for parties, friends, and guilds to choose from.

This is literally the first negative I have come across for not playing AoC. I absolutely hate these type of loot systems where it's either RNG (where I inevitably get screwed) or someone collected the gear and distributes it. The only thing I have not seen is on the spot bidding which I can see degenerating into bad feelings (I read @Dygz story about a bad experience). IMHO I shouldn't have to pay for something that was found, especially if others got their loot for free. It's complete BS.

As I mentioned, I have played enough RNG looting to know the RNG god personally hates me (probably because I have pledged my allegiance elsewhere) but I usually get the crap item when its my turn or nothing at all. Really REALLY frustrating to go into a dungeon multiple times looking for a particular item only to come out with nothing.

Need before Greed system I've actually been ripped OFF before. A prime example...I was playing vanilla WoW and an awesome Paladin hammer dropped. I was the only Palafin in the group so it rightfully should have gone to me but the leader said, "Our GuildMaster has been looking for this item for a long time, I'm going to give it to him". (this was an all guild party). I was like WTF?! I didn't know this was a NBG or Leader discretion system?! But the GM had already been messaged and before I could even voice my protest the GM shows up, item handed over and equipped. They later agreed what both the party leader and the GM did was wrong and tried to bribe me but it was too late. I didn't want to associate with those who would do that to a fellow guildmate so I prompty left the party and the guild giving them a big FU on departure.

And lootmaster......I have had the lootmaster unparty and log out with all of the phat loot, leaving a 40 man raid high and dry. So yeah I am not a fan of any of those systems.

I would implore IS to reconsider and do what ESO does. Everyone gets to pick the bodies so everyone has a chance at something and then you can trade between yourselves in the party. Fair and equitable for all.

ArchivedUser

I like the traditional looting system. The bidding system sounds great too. I hope it won't be abused though. But overall I really like it.

ArchivedUser

Raid and looting rules are important no doubt but I trust I'm not alone in hoping that raiding isn't the only / isn't absolutely necessary content for those who have reached advanced stages of the game to still be able to enjoy/impact it 

ArchivedUser

I'm on the fence on this. I played Blade and Soul where the looting was similar to this and pretty much if you had tons of gold you'd just win every roll in random parties, sure you'd get some gold out of it but if you don't have a guild to roll with all the time this looting system will be abused. 

ArchivedUser

Well, in Ashes, a standard group is what we would call a raid in any other MMORPG.

ArchivedUser

I've just posted my proposal here.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/34643/proposal-scaled-individual-loot-system/p1
I look forward to hearing your feedback, positive or negative

ArchivedUser

Fanzhon said:

To be honest, I think market saturation is an eventual problem that Ashes will have since there doesn't seem to be any plan in making sinks for old equipment to be thrown away.

I believe the devs stated that gear could be deconstructed, into base components, if wearing or selling it isn't a favorable option.  That should help with the sink issue.

ArchivedUser

Dragonpriest said:

One other issue I just realized with the need/greed system, unless the loot is flagged specifically for certain classes (ie plate only flagged for plate wearers, leather only for leather wearers) there will be nothing stopping clothies from needing gear that they can't use, just to sell.

Gear (weapons and armor) is agnostic in Ashes.  Any class can use any gear.  People will look for gear that suits their aesthetics, and playstyle, as opposed to being class restricted.  Unless the devs change their minds.

ArchivedUser

freespiryt said:

Dragonpriest said:

One other issue I just realized with the need/greed system, unless the loot is flagged specifically for certain classes (ie plate only flagged for plate wearers, leather only for leather wearers) there will be nothing stopping clothies from needing gear that they can't use, just to sell.

Gear (weapons and armor) is agnostic in Ashes.  Any class can use any gear.  People will look for gear that suits their aesthetics, and playstyle, as opposed to being class restricted.  Unless the devs change their minds.

This will just make the NBG system all the worse because anyone could put forth a case they "need" every item drop, thus rendering that system worthless.

ArchivedUser

As has been mentioned by others, the proposed loot systems are the first definitively negative opinions I have had with Ashes.  A base requirement for grouping would need to be that the loot system is chosen as soon as the group forms and is prominently displayed somewhere, preferably with sirens and flashing lights.  The loot system may not be changed after the first additional person is added to the group.

The loot master option is arbitrary and will cause so much drama in a guild.  As a former guild leader, I would have banned its use in my guild because, well, everybody has to duck when the fit hits the shan.  And the fit always hits when I would be offline and unable to try to accommodate any of the members concerns.  And by ban, I mean saying goodbye to all the members of the group for creating the guild drama by choosing the option in the first place.  This method actually offends me.  If a guild truly has the right people in it then getting the right loot to the right people should not need this option. And this option should obviously be a no go for open groups.

Need or Greed equals everyone needs (enough said).

Round Robin does not offend but a better replacement would be a personalized loot drop.

The bidding system has too much room for abuse built into it.  There have been some clever tweaks suggested but it does not solve the base flaw that the work put into earning the drop is independent of all other efforts in game.  Therefore the ability to earn the drop should not be dependant on efforts outside the dungeon/raid/world boss to earn gold.

TLDR: These loot options are all flawed and have the possibility of making this a short term game no matter how good the mechanics are.

ArchivedUser

LOOTING RULES

We’re also looking at a potential bidding system, which allows a player who wants an item to bid against another player who wants the item. Instead of rolling, the person willing to pay the most gold gets the item. That gold then goes into a pool which is split among the rest of the party members. A win, win situation for the entire group!

 

Love this idea! 

ArchivedUser

So what happens if the bid is lower than the vendor price or will that be the minimum? People could just use money to make money. *throws cash at all items and auctions them for 20% more than they bid*

ArchivedUser

If the bid method is a dedicated loot rule system and not an optional selection in need/greed it would be a pretty awesome addition to make things less prone to corruption.

ArchivedUser

Loyheta said:

If the bid method is a dedicated loot rule system and not an optional selection in need/greed it would be a pretty awesome addition to make things less prone to corruption.

Less prone? What are you smoking? Other games have had bid systems and they are exploited to the hilt. Guilds sell loot runs. Gold sellers use the mechanic to transfer large amounts of gold as a way to launder. People grief other people by just running up bids on stuff they don't want, but know that other people need, so that they get a larger cut. Once you make it so other people in the group have a profit motive to making sure that loot goes for as much as possible you are guaranteeing all sorts of toxic, exploitive behavior. For a company dedicated to no pay to win mechanics, allowing geared players to run underlevel/undergear/low skill players through content for profit is going to bite them in the ass.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

Loyheta said:

If the bid method is a dedicated loot rule system and not an optional selection in need/greed it would be a pretty awesome addition to make things less prone to corruption.

Less prone? What are you smoking? Other games have had bid systems and they are exploited to the hilt. Guilds sell loot runs. Gold sellers use the mechanic to transfer large amounts of gold as a way to launder. People grief other people by just running up bids on stuff they don't want, but know that other people need, so that they get a larger cut. Once you make it so other people in the group have a profit motive to making sure that loot goes for as much as possible you are guaranteeing all sorts of toxic, exploitive behavior. For a company dedicated to no pay to win mechanics, allowing geared players to run underlevel/undergear/low skill players through content for profit is going to bite them in the ass.

Which game(s) are you referring to?

ArchivedUser

Blade and Soul has this mechanic for one off the top of my head.
https://siliconangle.com/blog/2016/01/28/blade-souls-loot-auction-system-is-the-best-and-worst-idea-in-the-game/

ArchivedUser

And other games like wow have addons to run that system. There's tons of gold runs in wow.

ArchivedUser

AkaBear said:

UnknownSystemError said:

Loyheta said:

If the bid method is a dedicated loot rule system and not an optional selection in need/greed it would be a pretty awesome addition to make things less prone to corruption.

Less prone? What are you smoking? Other games have had bid systems and they are exploited to the hilt. Guilds sell loot runs. Gold sellers use the mechanic to transfer large amounts of gold as a way to launder. People grief other people by just running up bids on stuff they don't want, but know that other people need, so that they get a larger cut. Once you make it so other people in the group have a profit motive to making sure that loot goes for as much as possible you are guaranteeing all sorts of toxic, exploitive behavior. For a company dedicated to no pay to win mechanics, allowing geared players to run underlevel/undergear/low skill players through content for profit is going to bite them in the ass.

Which game(s) are you referring to?

It was awful in Blade and Soul. 

ArchivedUser

Please take a look at the loot system that Guild Wars 2 uses.  They give each member of the party tokens that can be used to purchase gear after enough tokens have been accumulated. 

There are many problems with the standard loot model and I think the GW2 system overcomes all of them.  I am sure most of you have seen these problems. 

The loot Ninja
The Need miss click.  (Sorry about that buddy)
Bad luck (ran the dungeon 50 times and never got the right loot)
Priority Loot member leaves for another guild or quits game after getting geared out.
Loot Beggar (whispers "man I really need that gear please let me have it")

ArchivedUser

No problems with old lootmodels here except for the bidding. Have had massive anti-social encounters with that in other games. Doesnt happen always but enough to annoy

ArchivedUser

Tokens is only really useful if when you exchange them for items, they are bound on obtain or limit the number of token you can have per week. Unless you want to see everyone just farming the same dungeon 24/7.

ArchivedUser

Warkov said:

Ninja Shadow said:

What is meant by round robin?

Round robin in some games means it just picks a party member at random.  In other games it means that it just picks the next player in group to give the loot to.  Kind of like going down the list.

Round robin gives loot in order, one after the other.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

I was just in a game that had the loot bidding in dungeons, and it leads to some truly anti-social behavior if you are grouped with random people. I had one guy repeatedly outbid me on a piece of gear he didn't need, but knew that I needed for my build. Would just snap rebid, when asked about it said "I just wanted to see how much I could make you pay." If we have the incentive of gaining the gold split at the end, I plan to make everyone in random groups that I may be part of pay through the nose.
Edit: also just thought of a way that gold sellers would be able to transfer gold between accounts without raising flags. Go as a group of 2 into a dungeon you can faceroll. Have the gold seller bid 10000g on a worthless to them item, other person gets the gold.

See?  This is why you're going to make a great alpha / beta tester.  You breaking things now will save the rest of the community from itself after launch.

ArchivedUser

I actually don't mind these looting rules, given we can also freely trade items as well. It means if someone does need something by accident, they can just trade to the person who really wanted it.

It also allows for guild mates to run a lower level individual with them and they can just let the new guy get all the stuff with no fuss or mess.