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Raid Parsers

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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    please noe.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    mycroft said " You want to cripple this game for anyone that cares about maximizing their performance, just so that your feelings aren't hurt when you group with the wrong people.  Stop being so selfish."

    "I want a parser because its 2017 and modern conveniences like it (and a proper costume system, but thats another topic) should be standard for MMORPGs.  I don't want to have to record and compare mob kill times to judge the difference in builds, nor do I want to install a tool that reads network packets because some forum warriors didn't want their feelings hurt when they joined the wrong group."
    ---

    By wanting this, and then claiming that people who don't want this are absurd, do you feel you are being selfish?
    So, you want a parser because it is 2017 and you don't want to spend the time to determine the best in class abilities/rotations/gear by trial and error?

    If there are ways of doing it in game without parsers or mods or addons how is this crippling? Is it because of the time investment?

    mycroft also said "Even if they have to resort to third party tools and risk a ban, just to more easily compare damage numbers."
    ---

    So, we should accommodate anyone who will eventually risk a ban to do something to make the game easier/more convenient for themselves?

    To me this logic makes no sense.
    If this was 100% going to be implemented, and people were on here wishing it wasn't, what would your advice to them be?

    @XombieCrisis, I am usually against the flood of memes you so recklessly partake in. But by all means, do what xombies do best here. :smile:

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    Azathoth said:
    @XombieCrisis, I am usually against the flood of memes you so recklessly partake in. But by all means, do what xombies do best here. :smile:
    My memes and gifs are always on topic, I don't understand the salt..

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    SageVonAwesome said:
    MMOs somehow managed to do just fine before parsers
    Human race somehow managed to do just fine before modern medicine...

    This doesn't mean that modern medicine didn't improve life significantly for most people. And whoever doesn't want modern medicine can chose to opt out.

    Same goes for raid parsers.
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    Azathoth said:
    mycroft said "You people are absurd.  You want to cripple this game for anyone that cares about maximizing their performance, just so that your feelings aren't hurt when you group with the wrong people.  Stop being so selfish."

    "I want a parser because its 2017 and modern conveniences like it (and a proper costume system, but thats another topic) should be standard for MMORPGs.  I don't want to have to record and compare mob kill times to judge the difference in builds, nor do I want to install a tool that reads network packets because some forum warriors didn't want their feelings hurt when they joined the wrong group."
    ---

    Do you feel as though you are being absurd or your feelings are hurt?
    By wanting this, and then claiming that people who don't want this are absurd, do you feel you are being selfish?
    So, you want a parser because it is 2017 and you don't want to spend the time to determine the best in class abilities/rotations/gear by trial and error?

    If there are ways of doing it in game without parsers or mods or addons how is this crippling? Is it because of the time investment?

    mycroft also said "Even if they have to resort to third party tools and risk a ban, just to more easily compare damage numbers."
    ---

    So, we should accommodate anyone who will eventually risk a ban to do something to make the game easier/more convenient for themselves?

    To me this logic makes no sense.
    If this was 100% going to be implemented, and people were on here wishing it wasn't, what would your advice to them be?

    @XombieCrisis, I am usually against the flood of memes you so recklessly partake in. But by all means, do what xombies do best here. :smile:

    Oh good, someone with some common sense posted what I was going to post. Thank you.!

    Next will be those who complain about no waypoints/fast travel, or some quick route to max level so the "real game" can begin, or other shortcuts, etc.

    Some of you need to realize this is not a FPS and it's not all about maximizing that last 5% of your performance having the best gear and crushing all in your wake. Sure some might feel that need but this isn't a HC competitive directed game. You want to foster that type of gameplay then I would point you at something like Call of Duty, Half-Life or Counterstrike where I agree those type of mods are necessary. This is suppose to be a long term game so sit back and enjoy the ride, stop to enjoy the scenery (because you will be seeing a LOT of it riding to those dungeons :) ), maybe even *gasp* roleplay a bit instead of sweating these details.

    People got along fine without them, went on raids and even BEAT them in earlier MMOs long before there were things like parsers. Just requires using something other than a program to figure things out ;)
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    mycroft said:

    I'm curious, which MMOs are you referring to? 

    And just because people were doing something doesn't mean they weren't handicapped in the process.  Even without a meter you can judge dps, just find a beefy enough mob somewhere and time how long it takes to kill it.  Its what people did in SWTOR before the devs finally got a clue and gave us damage logs.  But thats a ridiculous work around for something that should be a standard feature in a modern MMORPG.
    Literally hundreds of MMOs, I'm not about to name them all but I don't recall any besides WoW having them before this decade.

    Don't think I don't see you trying to change the language of your post after the fact. Maybe English isn't your first language so I'll explain something; in this context crippled and handicapped have different meanings relating to their severity. If we're playing golf and I let you tee-off the closer tees then I am handicapped, if we're playing golf and I have no clubs then I am crippled.

    We weren't talking about whether not having a parser is a handicap compared to having one; we were talking about your claim that without parsers players would be crippled and unable to play without 3rd party programs.
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    Azathoth said:
    If there are ways of doing it in game without parsers or mods or addons how is this crippling? Is it because of the time investment?
    If its possible to use crutches and wheelchairs to move around, is missing a leg actually crippling?

    My point is that you make it significantly more difficult for everyone that cares about maximizing their performance, either by significantly increasing the effort they need expend or by making them risk a ban, just so that you don't get insulted when you join the wrong group.

    Azathoth said:
    If this was 100% going to be implemented, and people were on here wishing it wasn't, what would your advice to them be?
    I would tell them to not join groups that care about parser numbers.

    Some of you need to realize this is not a FPS and it's not all about maximizing that last 5% of your performance having the best gear and crushing all in your wake. Sure some might feel that need but this isn't a HC competitive directed game.
    What do you mean it isn't a competitive game, there are literally going to be raid leaderboards.  Just because it isn't a way that you like to play, doesn't mean that they aren't trying to bring in these kind of players.

    Literally hundreds of MMOs, I'm not about to name them all but I don't recall any besides WoW having them before this decade.
    As far as I can tell, parsers have been a thing since at least Everquest.  So what MMORPGs from before Everquest were people doing just fine in?

    And while we're importing features from almost 20 years ago, what other modern conveniences should we drop because the first MMORPGs didn't have them?

    We weren't talking about whether not having a parser is a handicap compared to having one; we were talking about your claim that without parsers players would be crippled and unable to play without 3rd party programs.
    Crippled vs handicapped is often a matter of degree, and I maintain my right to use hyperbole to stress my points.  And I don't know what this 3rd party programs straw man is about, I've only been talking parsers.


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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    mycroft said:

    Some of you need to realize this is not a FPS and it's not all about maximizing that last 5% of your performance having the best gear and crushing all in your wake. Sure some might feel that need but this isn't a HC competitive directed game.
    What do you mean it isn't a competitive game, there are literally going to be raid leaderboards.  Just because it isn't a way that you like to play, doesn't mean that they aren't trying to bring in these kind of players.

    I didn't just say "competitive" did I? I further qualified it which was kind of important. Please don't pull one word out of context and try to build an argument around it.

    First I said "some" so I did take people like you into account :)

    I then said it was not going to be a HC (that means hardcore) competitive directed game, ala FPS games that pretty much live for leaderboards, and maximizing your performance down the the micron. (pretty much the games I listed in the next sentence, hoping you would make the connection)

    AoC will NOT be a FPS game and will NOT revolve around leaderboards. They will have them sure, but they are not going to be a major focus (or probably even a focus at all).  There will literally be thousands of things you can do in AoC besides seeing if you are top ranked in a particular dungeon raid. They are there however for people like you who feel the need to be number 1 on a list.

    Let me ask you this question.......Do you feel you are not capable of defeating a raid dungeon w/o your 3rd party mods and parsers? If the answer is no then are you saying you are not capable of stepping up to the challenge of completing a raid dungeon w/o said crutches...err I mean tools? Because that is what it will be, a challenge. Think of how much more of an accomplishment it will be if you can do it sans those tools. I would recommend instead of b*tching about something they have already said no to, you instead embrace the challenge. It's not as if others will have something you don't so that makes it a pretty level playing field o:)
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    Lazerou said:

    I played DAoC and then WoW - in the very early days before everything had a mod raids were actually fun, so was pvp, so was exploration. Warhammer was at least refreshing in the lack of mods, but I only played that turkey for three months so I don't know what happened in later years.

    Now you have people running 30 mods in WoW that govern half of what they do. The raid mods tell you where to stand, when to move, where to move to, etc. I find that whole approach to be entirely disheartening and will very much hope it does not creep into AoC.
    The nature of scripted dungeons is they are predictable.
    Remove the predictability and that scenario simply cant happen.
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    @mycroft, are you suggesting that not having a parser in a video game is equivalent to not having a leg IRL? Hyperbole sure, but that would mean you are not expecting the claim to be taken seriously literally. So why make it?

    Now, it seems, the only purpose is to be able to show others how awesome someone is or help them reach that level of awesome. Sometimes it takes time before you can be awesome at stuff, sometimes it takes trial and error, and sometimes you can just ask how someone else became awesome (because in the end it sounds like you want to be the same level of awesome as everyone else that is awesome).

    As far as what other modern conveniences we should lose because of no parsers... 20 years ago was 1997. I don't know/care how old you are, but I did quite fine in 1997 and besides smart-phones and faster internet (better VG graphics) I am not seeing much difference now compared to then (on a day to day personal level much like video games). I would then claim that smart phones and faster internet added to the instant gratification without effort that now plagues society. But this isn't a political or social commentary thread so I will stop there.

    @XombieCrisis, the "Salt" is for things like "who f*ing cares" when it is obvious others care.
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    Everyone has different idea's on what make's their "perfect" mmo and what systems they would like to see, there's no need for people to repeatedly post meme's that have no constructive purpose to the thread at hand keep that in mind. 
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    "I was thinking bout her, thinkin' bout me
    Thinkin' bout us, what we gon' be
    Open my eyes yeah, it was only Just A Meme
    So I traveled back, down that road
    Will she come back, no one knows
    I realize yeah, it was only Just A Meme"

    But in all seriousness guys - Please do not “necro” a thread, cross-post, or post miscellaneous messages to “bump” threads. Keep topics clean, organized, and on the topic they were created for. However, feel free to create new threads if you’d like to talk about something slightly different that doesn’t quite fit with the original thread. If you have questions, always feel free to ask.

    Thanks <3

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    AoC will NOT be a FPS game and will NOT revolve around leaderboards. They will have them sure, but they are not going to be a major focus (or probably even a focus at all)
    Just because they won't be a focus for you doesn't mean they won't be a focus for others.  You keep imposing your playstyle on the whole player base, while all I am doing is asking for the tools to enable different playstyles.

    Let me ask you this question.......Do you feel you are not capable of defeating a raid dungeon w/o your 3rd party mods and parsers?
    To start off with, I'm not asking for third party addons.  I am only here talking about parsers, so stop putting those words in my mouth.

    Second, of course raids and dungeons can be done without a parser.  That's a stupid and insulting question to ask.  A parser is a tool to improve your own performance and diagnose problems in a group.  These things can be done without a parser, but would require significant more effort, to the point that it would drive some people away.  On the other hand, the only cost of including a parser is that players with different playstyles and goals won't group together.

    Azathoth said:
    @mycroft, are you suggesting that not having a parser in a video game is equivalent to not having a leg IRL? Hyperbole sure, but that would mean you are not expecting the claim to be taken seriously literally. So why make it?
    Its an analogy.  You seem to be suffering under the misconception that a work around removes the impairment, so I compared it to another situation to make it clear that your premises are incorrect.
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    Keep seeing all these posts about parsers being bad.. once again I'm all for them. They in no way change game mechanics or impact gameplay in anyway other than telling you how you and your group perform.

    I don't want to be pushing high end content with a player who can't maintain entry level dungeon damage or healing. As someone who consistently forms PVE group's I can tell you parsers or not I will most certainly not hold back in kicking someone who underperforms or dies to basic mechanics. 

    Will it be difficult without a parser? Yes. But each class will perform differently allowing the underperformer to slightly stand out. Hell without parsers I may end up kicking the wrong person who is actually maintaining up time on an enemy and now I'm the jerk instead of Timmy two fingers over here maintaining 30% combat uptime
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    Just want to point out that Raid Parsers switched around is "Radar Pisser". 

    This is on topic. I'm adding to the thread. Not a bump. Any assertion otherwise will violate my human rights of free speech.
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    Private companies don't have to give two shits about your free speech rights. Just ask misogyny Google boy. This is also on topic and I reserve the right not to bake a cake.
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    Private companies don't have to give two shits about your free speech rights. Just ask misogyny Google boy. This is also on topic and I reserve the right not to bake a cake.
    Maybe it's time to take a break from the forum. You're starting to take it too seriously.
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    Image result for youre not the boss of me meme
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    No, I am not seeing an impairment. That seems to be the biggest difference between your arguments and those arguments made counter to yours. We (and I assume those that do not understand the need for the parsers feel the same way) do not see a game without a parser as a game with a handicap/impairment, or a game that results in some players being crippled.
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    Apparently @Azathoth needs his hand held in games in order to achieve any level of efficiency. I feel for you bub, but I most definitely don't want the game to cater to the likes of you. <3 
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    I was under the impression a large number of skills would offer more utility over raw damage so DPS meters probably wouldn't show much besides differences in classes/equipment.

    Personally I think everyone is assuming what combat gameplay will be like. I think discussing meters should wait until combat is finalized. The game's barely in alpha and the combat system could vastly change in the next 2 years.

    At the moment, I don't see having dps meters being a great benefit. Guildwars 2 managed to not have a dps meter until the release of it's first expansion - 3 years later.
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    People got along fine without them, went on raids and even BEAT them in earlier MMOs long before there were things like parsers. Just requires using something other than a program to figure things out ;)
    The first guild I raided with in WoW did things pretty old school. We did not look up strategies on how to complete bosses, or accept any outside input other than what the players brought and didn't use any raid mods (though somewhere along the line later a lot of people used an aggro meter).

    It was easier to avoid back then without the internet flooded with "how to" videos but it was so much fun to finally push past a boss and move through progression - we never made it past the first boss of Naxx but we had an absolute blast in MC and AQ40. 

    We were slower but we weren't trying to be number 1, we just wanted to have fun. We also often had people in greens in there to give them a chance to experience some content, and the excitement of them getting a bit of gear or seeing something they thought they wouldn't was amazing. That's just the kind of guild we were, more interested in community than epeen.

    I am definitely looking forward to repeating the experience in Ashes. It isn't just nostalgia. I truly think the genre has degraded over time and it's nice to see so many other people feel the same way, developers included.

    If information can be provided with in-game tools then those that want it can use it, for whatever purpose, no matter how mean-spirited, and I will gladly avoid the people who would kick someone from a group for underperforming instead of trying to help or seeing it as a challenge to still succeed and have fun doing so.

    If the game provides the community structure then it will organically find a way for likeminded individuals to come together to enjoy a similar playstyle.
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    @XombieCrisis, I'm sorry, are you suggesting that not having parsers = needing hand held? I am under the impression that parsers are what tells a player they need to be better, more efficient and build/utilize differently. I have, contrary to what some of the arguments made in favor of parsers would claim, no intentions of asking a super efficient group to "carry" me.

    I think most on this thread, and the other, would agree that I am not for parsers. To be honest I am mostly against an inspection option that I can't turn off. I voted to have dps meters that would allow me to review my own, but not others, in yet a different thread. I just don't understand the need for parsers, or otherwise allowing others to rate my efficiency/gear.

    As for the personal attacks that these threads lead to due to lack of intelligent and logical input, try harder. Or keep flaming/trolling, you be you!
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    Azathoth said:
    We (and I assume those that do not understand the need for the parsers feel the same way) do not see a game without a parser as a game with a handicap/impairment, or a game that results in some players being crippled.
    You don't see an impairment because of how you intend to play.  For anyone who's playstyle would be aided by a parser, not having one would be, by definition, an impairment.  They'll probably be able to get by, but any workaround for not having a parser is going to take an order of magnitude more effort.

    Not having a parser would make my preferred playstyle significantly more difficult.  What would having a parser cost you?  A few group invites, maybe an insulting comment or two?

    Fanzhon said:
    At the moment, I don't see having dps meters being a great benefit. Guildwars 2 managed to not have a dps meter until the release of it's first expansion - 3 years later.
    And what else came with that expansion, that got the community to create dps meters?  Since Ashes is releasing with raids instead of adding them three years later, it should also release with tools to facilitate groups trying to compete on those raid leaderboards.  Like a parser.


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    Azathoth said:
    @XombieCrisis, I'm sorry, are you suggesting that not having parsers = needing hand held? I am under the impression that parsers are what tells a player they need to be better, more efficient and build/utilize differently. I have, contrary to what some of the arguments made in favor of parsers would claim, no intentions of asking a super efficient group to "carry" me.

    I think most on this thread, and the other, would agree that I am not for parsers. To be honest I am mostly against an inspection option that I can't turn off. I voted to have dps meters that would allow me to review my own, but not others, in yet a different thread. I just don't understand the need for parsers, or otherwise allowing others to rate my efficiency/gear.

    As for the personal attacks that these threads lead to due to lack of intelligent and logical input, try harder. Or keep flaming/trolling, you be you!

    Walls of text don't prove intelligence or that you have insightful input @Azathoth, this isn't Reddit baby girl. Settle down, I didn't intend to have you get all worked up or defensive. <3

    #NoParsers 
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    mycroft said:

    Fanzhon said:
    At the moment, I don't see having dps meters being a great benefit. Guildwars 2 managed to not have a dps meter until the release of it's first expansion - 3 years later.
    And what else came with that expansion, that got the community to create dps meters?  Since Ashes is releasing with raids instead of adding them three years later, it should also release with tools to facilitate groups trying to compete on those raid leaderboards.  Like a parser.



    maybe a failure in design that created a an emphasis on dps over skill usage in situations?

    mycroft said:
    Azathoth said:
    We (and I assume those that do not understand the need for the parsers feel the same way) do not see a game without a parser as a game with a handicap/impairment, or a game that results in some players being crippled.
    You don't see an impairment because of how you intend to play.  For anyone who's playstyle would be aided by a parser, not having one would be, by definition, an impairment.  They'll probably be able to get by, but any workaround for not having a parser is going to take an order of magnitude more effort.

    Not having a parser would make my preferred playstyle significantly more difficult.  What would having a parser cost you?  A few group invites, maybe an insulting comment or two?.


    I intend to develop my character(s) into top notch builds, with an emphasis not only on raids and pve but pvp as well and I do not see the lack of parsers as an impairment. More often I find that they get in the way more then are helpful.

    I am also trying to see what kind of playstyle is so reliant on parsers. please enlighten me so I can look at it from a different perspective. I always love getting new angles on things it opens up what all creative ways I can think of to do things

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    Xephita said:
    I'll add my comment here instead. 90% of the time it's just used by elitists to be elitists. Lets hope the game isn't only about raiding anyway. Also it gets ridiculous having to download 15 addons to play a game because that's what 'everyone else does'
    In the end do these people pay for your subs, No, do these people tell me how I should play the game, No. As long as we dont follow these fools they will go away and stop bothering players to conform to the way they want you to play.
     
    I like the way you think :-)

    Parsers schmarcers, really. I don't believe raids are even going to be as much a part of the game as they are in the more usual MMORPGs; let's get our heads outta this style of thinking and into a more community-focused style of thinking. Like, "Hey, man, how can I help my node/guild/etc?" 

    Do appreciate how you threw in "help other players perform better [paraphrase]" -- it almost makes it sound selfless. But it ain't, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

    If you would like more factual information about ISs stance on meters/parsers, please refer to the following thread, it's been discussed quite a bit already:
    https://tinyurl.com/meters-and-such

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    More often I find that they get in the way more then are helpful.
    Would you mind elaborating on this point?  How does a parser make it more difficult to compare the damage of different builds?

    Isende said:
    Parsers schmarcers, really. I don't believe raids are even going to be as much a part of the game as they are in the more usual MMORPGs; let's get our heads outta this style of thinking and into a more community-focused style of thinking. Like, "Hey, man, how can I help my node/guild/etc?"
    How about we get our heads outta this style of thinking that everyone will play this game the same way.  The existence of raid leaderboards means that there will be people that are playing to maximize their performance and top those leaderboards, and a parser would be a massive boon to that playstyle.
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    mycroft said:
    You people are absurd.  You want to cripple this game for anyone that cares about maximizing their performance, just so that your feelings aren't hurt when you group with the wrong people.  Stop being so selfish.
    Are you serious? You consider a game crippled because it won't allow you to stroke your nerd ego where you brag about how much damage you've done? And you are calling people selfish because you want to impliment something for your own bragging rights?  Are you even listening to what youre saying? Typical WoW player... Just stop, before you infect us all with stupidity. 

    Please, do us all a favour and don't even sign up to Ashes of Creation. Just keep playing your precious parser hero, WoW. Your kind really isn't needed in this game.
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    Image result for raid memes
This discussion has been closed.