****Be very open-minded about this Post - its practically Brainstorming**** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More Action-Combat abilities , Abilities with long distances, utilization of the Air/ Atmosphere/ parameter(s) , Abilities that'll temporarily affect in-game physics, idling abilities, Abilities activating simultaneously with other abilities.
In order to start creating new abilities, you got start from the Beginning - because this " same " Beginning " is the Foundation that'll be Expanded upon. The U.I. is like a Palette, it dictates the " Foundation " ( via Optimization & Appearance ) - and it's " Colors " affect what can be convey & expressed ( referring to the Abilities of each Archetype and how they define each Archetype )
having abilties that can be used while not in combat , Adaptive Abilities that correlates to the environment , ... Abilities that does not require an Enemy Target nor requiring you to be in combat nor a distance limit, Abilities being triggered at ... " Certain Elevation Levels " ( not in terms of " Character Placement " , but rather, ... the HitBox-Placement )
EDIT: Establishing these ... then more Abilities " similar-in-nature " can be created for Combat ( if not already )
Level of Elevation (EDIT: trying to emphasis how abilities can be initiated - broader-aspects )
Underground, Ground-Level, Grass Level, Tall Grass-Level, Bush-level, Small Tree, Medium-sized Tree, Big Tree, Treetops, Sky, etc ... ( but to an extent )
Almost like AoE, but not necessarily
Abilities behaving differently depending on the Environment around you . For example ... If my Ranger does the " Disengage " Ability and Leaps into a Tree ... He will bounce off of that Object ( the Tree ) and travel the Remaining Distance that was intended of Abiilty
( i.e. If Nearing the End of the " Disengage " Ability, the Bounce-Effect won't be far, but if Close-enough ... it will be noticeably/ Fairly far )
EDIT: The above idea ... almost like a " Ricochet "
I'd prefer if the Long-Range Classes actually had to aim ... similar to a 3rd-Person Shooter, but optimized for the Long-Weapon ... As opposed to Every Attack following the target like its a " Heat-Seeking-Missile " >.<
The Weapon Skill ability is set to an ... " RNG Quick-Time Event ( similar to Games like " Heavy Rain " )
Surprised its even a discussion - it was good for PAX, but it needs to be either heavily re-worked or scrapped.
Rather than being concerned with the Bar - that only pertains
to one ability ... why not suggest on what could be added to help Combat Look & Feel Good ?
In every MMO, In PvP, I always see close-range melee players " running-around in a Circle " and it made sense why - it's a " Spacing-Tactic " & Predicting your opponents Moves. .
But i don't understand why not incorporate abilities that'll act as a Substitute for the same Purpose - so melee-players won't have to move around stupidly in a circle ; revealing the Awkward Character Animation whilist Attacking at the same time ... its an Eyesore seeing it from afar
How does that benefit the Long-Range ? Simple, They'll get the same benefit.
More Hybrid-Style Abilities - Intrepid confidently claims that this MMO will be Both Action-Combat & Tab-targeting. We only seen a few Action-Combat abilities in PAX Pre-Alpha but i'm sure we can expect more
Some of the ... " Hitboxes " were kinda off in some Attacks
8:02 - 8:07 ( the " Flytext " is the indicator that the Ranger's Power Shot landed, despite visually missing )
Worth watching the other 3 Videos on YouTube for Mage, Tank and Cleric. Then imagine that Class to be more effective
From the Videos ( Just click on initial Link Provided and the others should appear in Suggestions Area )
Tank needs to be able to block with Both Sword & Shield - giving the Player the option to block with Sword and/or Shield. In addition, would like to Melee-Characters to have some Sword-Collision during Combat. Also maybe 1 or 2 Movement Abilities-Increases to avoid constant Kiting
Ranger ... imo, needs to be more agile - the " Leap-Back w/ Feint Shot " Ability feels right for its Archetype. In addition some Abilities with longer range. And a few abilities entirely based on Aim + an unlimited Ranged Abilties ( about 3 - 6 ) ( its an MMO ... can't be too broken xD )
Cleric seems kinda okay. Except for how the Cleric holds that Staff xD. Don't like it. The way how i see it ... The Mage seems to be the Caster of Elements where as ... the Cleric specializes being the Caster of Light & Darkness with the addition of " Twilight " ( maybe " Chaos " ? ) and other Variations ( ... yes that includes Necromancy >~> )
Mage needs more variety in Spells tbh - without a Mana Cost . Due to the Classes only having 8 abilities ... i feel Neutral about the Mage. The Mage can Fly & Teleport, not entirely sure what else to say.
( EDIT: **Maybe Mage can cast some Light & Dark Abilities ? Just not as Prominent as the Cleric ? and not Necromancy** )
@Intrepid , The Pre-Alpha footage that was shown in LiveStreams - The Character Models, (some) Character Animations, U.I. ( including the HP/Mana Bar-Layout ) felt right .. can we get those back ?
" Usually your initial Thoughts/ Guesses is more than likely Correct when choosing multiple Choice "
... thats how i (relatively) felt when seeing PAX Pre-Alpha compared to what was seen in Pre-Alpha LiveStream(s) Footages - it feels good to see the Progression ... yet it feels like its Progressing in " a " wrong direction.
( i say ... " a " ... because its still experimenting from what i can tell )
( still don't like the term " Ultimate Abilities ". Please replace with an ability that deals high-damage ? Please Scrap the terms " Ultimate Abilities " & " Focus " . )
The " focus " term is a nice concept, but i think something better can be done with that ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There's a lot i could say, but I can't go based on an Assumption. I'm kinda just hoping Intrepid has a Broad-Mindset & goes in the " right " direction
( hard to define " right " , because that's different compared to others )
Worse, because its mostly an assumption i think its best i wait until further information is released - even though ... it might be too late if waiting is too long ...
Even while just watching all the videos from PAX I always found myself just watching the action. I only ever noticed the bar when the voice-over was mentioning it. I fear that I would just completely ignore the QTE bar while playing and wear the consequences.
This would mean I would not be as effective as other players of my class, but this mechanic completely pulls me out of the game and, if implemented, to keep myself in the game, I would just ignore it.
I fully understand the response that statement will engender from some, but I am really just looking for a fun experience. If something isn't fun and engaging, I just won't do it.
I think it is fine for something static, like crafting and gathering (I think it perfect for fishing) but for something as dynamic as combat, especially PvP, I really dislike it and do hope that it is changed - just lending my voice to the many.
I live on a mountain, so our internet is not the greatest and I feel that it would just be another reason why I would just find myself ignoring this entire mechanic if implemented.
If I heard the stream earlier correctly, more than just the ultimate will be needing the focus generated by combos. So much for the QTE's not being foundational or fundamental or whatever other synonym people were objecting to.
I'm fine with the combo system. I'm even pretty much fine with the bar. I just want the sweet spot to be a fixed point, so that its something that can be learned and practiced, and a player's experience with a weapon would matter more than their ping or framerate. Instead, we have the lowest form of hand-eye coordination being trumped up as a skillful auto attack replacement.
Just something to think about, this company's stance on pay to win has been made clear from day one. Yet they are basing their combat on a system that directly rewards people who pay more for their computers and pay for better connections. Obviously this isn't the pay to win they are referring to, but it is still using money to get an advantage, even if that money isn't going to Intrepid.
Any ability that requires Focus is not foundational. The foundation of combat does not require Focus. Building Focus is advanced combat. So, the QTE is not foundational.
The sweet spot is not going to be fixed. Having a fixed sweet spot would allow spamming the ability - which is what the QTE is designed to prevent. The QTE can still be learned and practiced - people will improve with repetition.
Assertions about better connections will have to proven. That's what testing is for.
Even while just watching all the videos from PAX I always found myself just watching the action. I only ever noticed the bar when the voice-over was mentioning it. I fear that I would just completely ignore the QTE bar while playing and wear the consequences.
This would mean I would not be as effective as other players of my class, but this mechanic completely pulls me out of the game and, if implemented, to keep myself in the game, I would just ignore it.
I fully understand the response that statement will engender from some, but I am really just looking for a fun experience. If something isn't fun and engaging, I just won't do it.
I think it is fine for something static, like crafting and gathering (I think it perfect for fishing) but for something as dynamic as combat, especially PvP, I really dislike it and do hope that it is changed - just lending my voice to the many.
I live on a mountain, so our internet is not the greatest and I feel that it would just be another reason why I would just find myself ignoring this entire mechanic if implemented.
The QTE is tied to your weapon, so it's really not about how effective you would be compared to others in your class. You would have to decide what your role is and how to be as effective at your role as you can be. If you don't rely on your weapon to optimize your role, you may instead rely on augments and potions. Or you may choose a weapon that has the easiest QTE. And choose the enchantments/abilities on the weapon to best suit how often you trigger weapon combos.
Any ability that requires Focus is not foundational. The foundation of combat does not require Focus. Building Focus is advanced combat. So, the QTE is not foundational.
Again with the semantics. Your weapon skill will be the one you use most often. Multiple skills on your bar could potentially require focus, meaning that you'll need to hit the QTE to be able to use them. If skill usage is a fundamental part of combat, then the QTE that enables skill usage must also be fundamental. And if conceding that word is to much, then it is at least extremely important to hit the QTE.
The sweet spot is not going to be fixed. Having a fixed sweet spot would allow spamming the ability
How do you figure? Spamming or not is based on the cooldown, and the weapon skill is meant to be the most spammable of the skills. Which is reflected in the lack of visible cooldown.
The QTE can still be learned and practiced - people will improve with repetition.
How? How do you learn a random point? How do you practice a random event? At best, you can learn to minimize the attention you give it, but that's learning to multitask, not learning to QTE.
If you don't rely on your weapon to optimize your role, you may instead rely on augments and potions.
I think I see our disagreement, we are talking about completely different things. I'm referring to the game I've seen in streams, you seem to be talking about the game you hope is coming. Even if you could overcome a lack of QTE success with augments and potions, which isn't something I've heard Intrepid even hint at, someone who can hit the combo that also took those augments and combos would still be significantly more effective at the role.
Your weapon skill may be the one you use most often. Spamming is not simply the skill/key you use most often. The dev quote is " Some skills that you can choose to spec into as you're progressing in the skill tree can have a Focus generation requirement." Players can choose to spec into Focus skills if they're good at building Focus or instead choose to spec into non-Focus skills if they're bad at building Focus. Same is true for tab-target skills and action skills. Accrue the skills that work best for you and ignore the ones that don't. Also the QTE is easier depending on the weapon you use, so choose weapons accordingly.
"You generate Focus through the use of your #1 skill, which is your weapon ability, in place of what would normally be found in a lot of MMORPGs which would be an auto-attack feature or a button-mashing feature." Again, the whole point of the QTE is to prevent button-mashing/spamming from being effective in Ashes combat.
Skill usage is a fundamental aspect of combat. Combo usage is not a fundamental aspect of combat. You can engage in combat without using combos. You can ignore the QTE and still be effective at combat.
Spamming or not is not based only on the cooldowns. With the weapon ability, there is a small delay between activation of the #1 key. It's a noticeable delay - 1-3 seconds. You can mash the 1 button as many times as you wish during that delay and you will not trigger your weapon ability again - unless you successfully hit the sweet spot on the QTE. If you do successfully hit the sweet spot, you will be rewarded with an extra attack - in the live game, that will most likely be the next ability in the combo chain. Trying to spam the #1 button would be like wildly waving your bat at base and hoping it connects meaningfully with the ball. Doing so will be ineffective the vast majority of the time - and you would be stuck just doing your basic attack at the fixed interval of the delay...and you would not build Focus.
At PAX, the weapon skill would be the most frequently used skill - but that does not equate with spamming. Spamming the weapon skill will muck up your timing for the QTE. The limit for how quickly you can trigger your weapon skill is not cooldowns. That limit is determined by a fixed delay of 1-3 seconds - which can be "decreased" by successfully hitting the sweet spot on the QTE and gaining an extra attack.
If the sweet spot for the QTE were fixed rather than random, players could spam the #1 key by memorizing the rhythm - players wouldn't have to pay attention to bar at all, they would just tap out the rhythm of the QTE. Because the sweet spot is random, they have to visually focus on the bar rather than ignoring the bar and relying upon a fixed rhythm/timing. But, like any hand-eye coordination task, success improves with practice.
I'm talking about the game that I played at PAX and the game design Jeffrey Bard described to me at PAX. How effective someone will be with the QTE will largely depend on the weapon chosen. How effective someone will be at overall combat will also largely depend on the specific set of abilities and augments the individual chooses to place on the hot-bar. If you aren't going to focus on using weapon combos during combat, the wise choice will be to choose non-weapon abilities and augments and potions, etc, which will compensate.
Which, again, is why the hot-bar is limited to 10 slots rather than allowing for 40+ abilities.
Our disagreement comes from the fact that you are making assumptions based on what you've seen rather than based on playing the actual combat and asking the devs about the design of Ashes combat.
RPGs. At the moment, I'm burnt out on the EQ/WoW style MMORPGs and won't play unless the game is similar to EQN. I'm currently playing NMS, Fortnite and Absolver.
If the sweet spot for the QTE were fixed rather than random, players could spam the #1 key by memorizing the rhythm - players wouldn't have to pay attention to bar at all, they would just tap out the rhythm of the QTE.
Being able to memorize the rhythm is a good thing. That lets player show skill and experience with a weapon. Hitting the key in the appropriate rhythm would be the opposite of spamming or button mashing. In fact, someone mashing buttons will never be able to hit a fixed point in the middle of the animation, but they very well might accidentally hit a QTE if it happens to be near the beginning. So I don't see how your spamming/button mashing complaint is a point against fixed positions.
which can be "decreased" by successfully hitting the sweet spot on the
QTE and gaining an extra attack.
So not hitting the QTE means you won't be able to use your ultimate, you'll be locked out of potentially better augments, and you will have multiple periods where you aren't able to do anything. Systems are built around it, and you'll never be as effective as someone that does try for the QTE. But because you have the choice to not do it, it isn't fundamental or important. Right.
I could go on about how silly that position is, but I don't see the point you are trying to get after with this whole line of argument.
Good is subjective. What matters is what the devs want. The devs don't want people memorizing the rhythm because that leads to spamming - and the devs want to avoid that. Fixed sweet spot means that it's easier to succssfuly hit the spot and more importantly, easier to do so without thinking about it. Hence the whole reason for making it random. You don't have to accept that, but the devs are better game designers than you are.
Cool-downs last significantly longer than 1-3 seconds.
Not building Focus means you won't be able to use the Ultimate. Doesn't necessarily mean that Ultimate will be your most powerful attack or that your most powerful attack will need Focus. That all depends on how you spec your build. Not building Focus doesn't lock you out of augments. During combat there will be moments when you can't use your abilities, regardless. If that were not the case, people would be spamming and button-mashing and face-rolling...which is what the devs don't want. A person who doesn't rely on the QTE can be as effective as those who try for the QTE, if they choose their weapons and abilities accordingly. All depends on how they spec their character and craft their weapons.
The QTE combos are not fundamental to combat because people can choose to engage in combat without triggering the QTEs. The QTE is advanced combat. That is trivial, but true. Silly is subjective.
If Devs don't want this Game changing into a F2P in less than a 3 -4 Months, then it's Community is (always) 1st priority. However, it will not contest to the " Original Plans " that Mr. Sharif has set-out for this MMO .But rather, Mr. Sharif (hopefully) allowing his Community Fan-base to add input and/or emphasis to his Plans.
Additionally, nothing is considered " (near) fundamental " until we see the Alpha/ Beta and - mostly importantly, The Finished-Product. I'm certain that Devs will constantly Discuss & Deliberate all of that with the help of the Community's POVs ( i.e. ... you can't please everyone, but they'll try their best to do so )
( If it can't be P2P ... at least B2P ... and if that means longer Production in order to Produce a B2P Game then please do so. No one wants another F2P / P2W Cash Grab ~.~ )
Good is subjective. What matters is what the devs want. The devs don't want people memorizing the rhythm because that leads to spamming - and the devs want to avoid that. Fixed sweet spot means that it's easier to succssfuly hit the spot and more importantly, easier to do so without thinking about it. Hence the whole reason for making it random. You don't have to accept that, but the devs are better game designers than you are.
Cool-downs last significantly longer than 1-3 seconds.
Not building Focus means you won't be able to use the Ultimate. Doesn't necessarily mean that Ultimate will be your most powerful attack or that your most powerful attack will need Focus. That all depends on how you spec your build. Not building Focus doesn't lock you out of augments. During combat there will be moments when you can't use your abilities, regardless. If that were not the case, people would be spamming and button-mashing and face-rolling...which is what the devs don't want. A person who doesn't rely on the QTE can be as effective as those who try for the QTE, if they choose their weapons and abilities accordingly. All depends on how they spec their character and craft their weapons.
The QTE combos are not fundamental to combat because people can choose to engage in combat without triggering the QTEs. The QTE is advanced combat. That is trivial, but true. Silly is subjective.
Unfortunately there is a lot wrong with this post.
Memorising a rhythm does not lead to spamming. It does lead to very set rotations, which really is as boring as spamming from a gameplay perspective.
The fact that the devs are game designers and we aren't, by the very definition makes them better game designers than those of us that are not. That doesn't mean that they are always right - they even acknowledged this in the PAX panel. The gaming landscape is littered with failed games that failed because of only one thing - bad game design. And these games were made by devs that were better game designers than you or me.
Our role as enthusiastic followers of this game is to praise what we see as good and constructively criticise what we feel is bad - all in the hopes of making a better game for all of us to play. None of us will see everything we want come to fruition, but none of us should stop trying just because we accept that reality. Passion over a game that is years away is admirable and a testament to the vision that has brought us all here.
Some cooldowns are one second, some are less, some are 2 minutes. There is no standard length for skill cooldowns. None.
We still know so little about the combat system that making set statements about how a character will be put together are simply assumptions on our part. What we can say is that if there is a mechanic in the game that if used correctly will provide tangible benefit to your character's performance, and you do not use it, then you will not be as effective as you could be, and not as effective as other players of your same class.
Specifics are still just unknown but I will happily gimp myself in combat by not using this QTE bar, mainly because it ruins the immersion of the combat. Not because of any fundamental disagreement on design philosophy but because I simply can't see it being fun and can only see it as detrimental to my enjoyment of what is shaping up to be a very beautiful and engaging game.
If Devs don't want this Game changing into a F2P in less than a 3 -4 Months, then it's Community is (always) 1st priority. However, it will not contest to the " Original Plans " that Mr. Sharif has set-out for this MMO .But rather, Mr. Sharif (hopefully) allowing his Community Fan-base to add input and/or emphasis to his Plans.
Additionally, nothing is considered " (near) fundamental " until we see the Alpha/ Beta and - mostly importantly, The Finished-Product. I'm certain that Devs will constantly Discuss & Deliberate all of that with the help of the Community's POVs ( i.e. ... you can't please everyone, but they'll try their best to do so )
( If it can't be P2P ... at least B2P ... and if that means longer Production in order to Produce a B2P Game then please do so. No one wants another F2P / P2W Cash Grab ~.~ )
It's not a fallacy. The community will be able to add input which will tweak the game design. But, it doesn't matter whether players want to have fast travel everywhere. It doesn't matter whether players want to have 10 Metropolises rather than 5. It doesn't matter whether players want Halflings as a playable race. It doesn't matter whether players want guns in the game. It doesn't matter whether players want no tab-target. It doesn't matter whether players want a separate PvP server or a separate RP server.
Players will get to tweak the design - the devs are not going to fundamentally overhaul their design just to suit a vocal minority - especially not for a vocal minority who haven't even played the game yet.
Community is never the #1 priority when it comes to game design because the community is not made up of professional game designers.
Unfortunately there is a lot wrong with this post.
Memorising a rhythm does not lead to spamming. It does lead to very set rotations, which really is as boring as spamming from a gameplay perspective.
You are correct that there is a lot wrong with your post - I don't have the time at the moment to even deal with all of it right now. But, just to start - memorizing the rhythm of the QTE has absolutely nothing to do with rotation. In Ashes, rotation is an aspect of the non-weapon abilities; not the weapon abilities.
The devs don't want people memorizing the rhythm because that leads to spamming - and the devs want to avoid that. Fixed sweet spot means that it's easier to succssfuly hit the spot and more importantly, easier to do so without thinking about it.
According to any reasonable definition of spammable, there is nothing
about a fixed point that makes it more spammable than a QTE. In fact, a
QTE is more likely to support button mashing, because occasionally the
QTE will be immediate while a fixed point will never be.
A QTE means there is a hard, low cap on how good you can be, and that outside factors like ping and framerate will be a significant factor in your combat ability. A memorizable pattern will let practice and effort be rewarded, and skill can overcome those outside factors (i.e. even with 200+ ping, as long as its consistent, a fixed point can be hit by someone who is experienced at hitting it with that much latency, but a QTE will always be failed). You claim that being able to hit the point without thinking is a negative, but the ability to actually show your expertise with a weapon is, in fact, a benefit.
If we are going to use ping and latency as a reason not to incude something in the game then every mmo with an action combat system (BDO, Tera, and Blade and Soul to name a few) should all go back to tab-targeting combat because action combat is unfair to people with slow internet or who are far from the server locations. Point being the devs shouldn't have to cater to people who don't want to or can't upgrade their rigs to properly run the game or the small minority of people who live in the remotest of places and just have crap internet speeds all the time. Doing so limits their possibilities and ability to bring their design to full fruition. I am in no way supporting the qte with this post, but instead am just pointing out a piece of an argument that isn't realistic if the devs are to have creative freedom.
If we are going to use ping and latency as a reason not to incude something in the game then every mmo with an action combat system (BDO, Tera, and Blade and Soul to name a few) should all go back to tab-targeting combat because action combat is unfair to people with slow internet or who are far from the server locations.
I raided in Wildstar for years with poor framerate, often sub 10 fps. There is at least one Australian raiding guild still around, where everyone has pings in the hundreds. Action combat with poor framerate or high latency is fine as long as its consistent, people can learn to compensate. However, that isn't something you can do with a QTE. How does one predictively hit a sweet spot when one doesn't know where the sweet spot will be?
@koragashi I have not played the combat, so take that in mind however I have almost four years experience working on prototype MMO combat systems and can say that the core combat system can be in flux until the last 5-6 months before release. It's one of the most important features and it is worked on near the start of the project, but continues to be worked on and rebuilt until near launch.
Feedback is critically important in this phase of AoC's development, but at the same time, the combat system is likely to be rebuilt at least twice before release. So don't feel particularly panicked about the combat system until we enter the late closed beta phase. Everything can be changed, and there is no reason for hyperbole or anger. But continue with constructive feedback, but remember AoC is less than one year into a typically 5 year development cycle.
Furthermore, AoC's core design and focus is not a combat system, it's the sandbox/political/dynamic world features which are the central focus and are meant to reach an underserved market. If the combat ends up being similar to currently existing games or of mediocre quality, that is unlikely to harm the game too much. If combat is what you are looking for, there are plenty of titles that have you covered. If it's complex political and dynamic world systems, you have little to no modern options. That is AoC's niche and market.
@koragashi I have not played the combat, so take that in mind however I have almost four years experience working on prototype MMO combat systems and can say that the core combat system can be in flux until the last 5-6 months before release. It's one of the most important features and it is worked on near the start of the project, but continues to be worked on and rebuilt until near launch.
Feedback is critically important in this phase of AoC's development, but at the same time, the combat system is likely to be rebuilt at least twice before release. So don't feel particularly panicked about the combat system until we enter the late closed beta phase. Everything can be changed, and there is no reason for hyperbole or anger. But continue with constructive feedback, but remember AoC is less than one year into a typically 5 year development cycle.
Furthermore, AoC's core design and focus is not a combat system, it's the sandbox/political/dynamic world features which are the central focus and are meant to reach an underserved market. If the combat ends up being similar to currently existing games or of mediocre quality, that is unlikely to harm the game too much. If combat is what you are looking for, there are plenty of titles that have you covered. If it's complex political and dynamic world systems, you have little to no modern options. That is AoC's niche and market.
Combat is something that can really help an MMO though, there are plenty of fun systems out there like action combat and wildstar's system. I see no reason not to expect better than their current system. QTE's won't work with ping and really take more away than give because instead of enjoying the entertainment I'm fretting over when the QTE will happen. It's a stress-inducing form of combat rather than something that makes me feel great pulling off a well timed dodge or block. I do not think their idea for the combat system as I understand it is good for the game at all.
If we are going to use ping and latency as a reason not to incude something in the game then every mmo with an action combat system (BDO, Tera, and Blade and Soul to name a few) should all go back to tab-targeting combat because action combat is unfair to people with slow internet or who are far from the server locations.
I raided in Wildstar for years with poor framerate, often sub 10 fps. There is at least one Australian raiding guild still around, where everyone has pings in the hundreds. Action combat with poor framerate or high latency is fine as long as its consistent, people can learn to compensate. However, that isn't something you can do with a QTE. How does one predictively hit a sweet spot when one doesn't know where the sweet spot will be?
I should have been more specific. In Pve it really isn't a problem because in the majority of mmos mobs are fairly predictable and scripted. The problem arises in pvp because people behave erratically and are often unpredictable. You can't really learn how to compensate for latency/ping and not knowing where or what your opponent is doing.
After listening to the excellent From the Ashes podcast I am
going to reserve all further judgement on the combat until a little more is
known. I really like the combo system and combat skill chaining (I have liked
it everywhere I have found it) but I dislike the QTE event (whether it be a
bar, a circle or a trapezoid). I really hope they come up with a different
mechanic to showcase the combo abilities but I am happy to wait until we see
where it goes.
The fact that the devs are game designers and we aren't, by the very definition makes them better game designers than those of us that are not. That doesn't mean that they are always right - they even acknowledged this in the PAX panel. The gaming landscape is littered with failed games that failed because of only one thing - bad game design. And these games were made by devs that were better game designers than you or me.
Most games that fail do not fail because of bad design.
But, that is completely beside the point.
Even a poorly designed game is going to better designed than what layman can design.
Also, I was not making a general statement, rather I was making a specific statement.
Our role as enthusiastic followers of this game is to praise what we see as good and constructively criticise what we feel is bad - all in the hopes of making a better game for all of us to play. None of us will see everything we want come to fruition, but none of us should stop trying just because we accept that reality. Passion over a game that is years away is admirable and a testament to the vision that has brought us all here.
Critique away. I haven't said anything like don't critique, but...
Your critique won't carry much weight if you have only seen vids of a pre-alpha, rather than having hands-on with the pre-alpha, and...
Just because you provide feedback about what you don't like, doesn't mean you have the knowledge or training to provide viable solutions - especially viable solutions that fit the rest of the game design... when you know next to nothing about the game design.
Some cooldowns are one second, some are less, some are 2 minutes. There is no standard length for skill cooldowns. None.
Vid or it didn't happen.
There is no standard length for a cool-down, but devs don't add cool-downs for just one second delays.
It's wasted graphics and coding to display.
We still know so little about the combat system that making set statements about how a character will be put together are simply assumptions on our part. What we can say is that if there is a mechanic in the game that if used correctly will provide tangible benefit to your character's performance, and you do not use it, then you will not be as effective as you could be, and not as effective as other players of your same class.
1: I have actually had conversations with devs.
2: Doesn't really matter whether you are as effective as you could be. What matters is that you are adequately effective - as effective as you're comfortable with.
3: The devs have already stated that there are several paths to being effective. Just because you avoid using the QTE does not mean that you can't compensate by concentrating on other mechanics and abilities. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Specifics are still just unknown but I will happily gimp myself in combat by not using this QTE bar, mainly because it ruins the immersion of the combat. Not because of any fundamental disagreement on design philosophy but because I simply can't see it being fun and can only see it as detrimental to my enjoyment of what is shaping up to be a very beautiful and engaging game.
Comments
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More Action-Combat abilities , Abilities with long distances, utilization of the Air/ Atmosphere/ parameter(s) , Abilities that'll temporarily affect in-game physics, idling abilities, Abilities activating simultaneously with other abilities.
In order to start creating new abilities, you got start from the Beginning - because this " same " Beginning " is the Foundation that'll be Expanded upon. The U.I. is like a Palette, it dictates the " Foundation " ( via Optimization & Appearance ) - and it's " Colors " affect what can be convey & expressed
( referring to the Abilities of each Archetype and how they define each Archetype )
Level of Elevation
(EDIT: trying to emphasis how abilities can be initiated - broader-aspects )
I'd prefer if the Long-Range Classes actually had to aim ... similar to a 3rd-Person Shooter, but optimized for the Long-Weapon ... As opposed to Every Attack following the target like its a " Heat-Seeking-Missile " >.<
The Weapon Skill ability is set to an ... " RNG Quick-Time Event
( similar to Games like " Heavy Rain " )
Surprised its even a discussion - it was good for PAX, but it needs to be either heavily re-worked or scrapped.
Rather than being concerned with the Bar - that only pertains to one ability ... why not suggest on what could be added to help Combat Look & Feel Good ?
Some of the ... " Hitboxes " were kinda off in some Attacks
- 8:02 - 8:07 ( the " Flytext " is the indicator that the Ranger's Power Shot landed, despite visually missing )
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlLlJa4PAw&t=330s
- Worth watching the other 3 Videos on YouTube for Mage, Tank and Cleric. Then imagine that Class to be more effective
From the Videos ( Just click on initial Link Provided and the others should appear in Suggestions Area )- Tank needs to be able to block with Both Sword & Shield - giving the Player the option to block with Sword and/or Shield. In addition, would like to Melee-Characters to have some Sword-Collision during Combat. Also maybe 1 or 2 Movement Abilities-Increases to avoid constant Kiting
- Ranger ... imo, needs to be more agile - the " Leap-Back w/ Feint Shot " Ability feels right for its Archetype. In addition some Abilities with longer range. And a few abilities entirely based on Aim + an unlimited Ranged Abilties ( about 3 - 6 ) ( its an MMO ... can't be too broken xD )
- Cleric seems kinda okay. Except for how the Cleric holds that Staff xD. Don't like it. The way how i see it ... The Mage seems to be the Caster of Elements where as ... the Cleric specializes being the Caster of Light & Darkness with the addition of " Twilight " ( maybe " Chaos " ? ) and other Variations ( ... yes that includes Necromancy >~> )
- Mage needs more variety in Spells tbh - without a Mana Cost . Due to the Classes only having 8 abilities ... i feel Neutral about the Mage. The Mage can Fly & Teleport, not entirely sure what else to say.
( EDIT: **Maybe Mage can cast some Light & Dark Abilities ? Just not as Prominent as the Cleric ? and not Necromancy** )@Intrepid , The Pre-Alpha footage that was shown in LiveStreams - The Character Models, (some) Character Animations, U.I. ( including the HP/Mana Bar-Layout ) felt right .. can we get those back
" Usually your initial Thoughts/ Guesses is more than likely Correct when choosing multiple Choice "
- ... thats how i (relatively) felt when seeing PAX Pre-Alpha compared to what was seen in Pre-Alpha LiveStream(s) Footages - it feels good to see the Progression ... yet it feels like its Progressing in " a " wrong direction.
( i say ... " a " ... because its still experimenting from what i can tell )( still don't like the term " Ultimate Abilities ". Please replace with an ability that deals high-damage ? Please Scrap the terms " Ultimate Abilities " & " Focus " . )
The " focus " term is a nice concept, but i think something better can be done with that
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There's a lot i could say, but I can't go based on an Assumption. I'm kinda just hoping Intrepid has a Broad-Mindset & goes in the " right " direction
( hard to define " right " , because that's different compared to others )
Worse, because its mostly an assumption i think its best i wait until further information is released - even though ... it might be too late if waiting is too long ...
I don't like the bar thing at all, I don't like get in right in the bar things over all. But maybe the bar could be at target like this.
I hope they can give us re-shaping option like I drew above, in a curcilar path.
This would mean I would not be as effective as other players of my class, but this mechanic completely pulls me out of the game and, if implemented, to keep myself in the game, I would just ignore it.
I fully understand the response that statement will engender from some, but I am really just looking for a fun experience. If something isn't fun and engaging, I just won't do it.
I think it is fine for something static, like crafting and gathering (I think it perfect for fishing) but for something as dynamic as combat, especially PvP, I really dislike it and do hope that it is changed - just lending my voice to the many.
I live on a mountain, so our internet is not the greatest and I feel that it would just be another reason why I would just find myself ignoring this entire mechanic if implemented.
I'm fine with the combo system. I'm even pretty much fine with the bar. I just want the sweet spot to be a fixed point, so that its something that can be learned and practiced, and a player's experience with a weapon would matter more than their ping or framerate. Instead, we have the lowest form of hand-eye coordination being trumped up as a skillful auto attack replacement.
Just something to think about, this company's stance on pay to win has been made clear from day one. Yet they are basing their combat on a system that directly rewards people who pay more for their computers and pay for better connections. Obviously this isn't the pay to win they are referring to, but it is still using money to get an advantage, even if that money isn't going to Intrepid.
The sweet spot is not going to be fixed. Having a fixed sweet spot would allow spamming the ability - which is what the QTE is designed to prevent.
The QTE can still be learned and practiced - people will improve with repetition.
Assertions about better connections will have to proven. That's what testing is for.
You would have to decide what your role is and how to be as effective at your role as you can be. If you don't rely on your weapon to optimize your role, you may instead rely on augments and potions.
Or you may choose a weapon that has the easiest QTE. And choose the enchantments/abilities on the weapon to best suit how often you trigger weapon combos.
How do you figure? Spamming or not is based on the cooldown, and the weapon skill is meant to be the most spammable of the skills. Which is reflected in the lack of visible cooldown.
How? How do you learn a random point? How do you practice a random event? At best, you can learn to minimize the attention you give it, but that's learning to multitask, not learning to QTE.
I think I see our disagreement, we are talking about completely different things. I'm referring to the game I've seen in streams, you seem to be talking about the game you hope is coming. Even if you could overcome a lack of QTE success with augments and potions, which isn't something I've heard Intrepid even hint at, someone who can hit the combo that also took those augments and combos would still be significantly more effective at the role.
Spamming is not simply the skill/key you use most often.
The dev quote is " Some skills that you can choose to spec into as you're progressing in the skill tree can have a Focus generation requirement."
Players can choose to spec into Focus skills if they're good at building Focus or instead choose to spec into non-Focus skills if they're bad at building Focus.
Same is true for tab-target skills and action skills. Accrue the skills that work best for you and ignore the ones that don't.
Also the QTE is easier depending on the weapon you use, so choose weapons accordingly.
"You generate Focus through the use of your #1 skill, which is your weapon ability, in place of what would normally be found in a lot of MMORPGs which would be an auto-attack feature or a button-mashing feature."
Again, the whole point of the QTE is to prevent button-mashing/spamming from being effective in Ashes combat.
Skill usage is a fundamental aspect of combat.
Combo usage is not a fundamental aspect of combat.
You can engage in combat without using combos.
You can ignore the QTE and still be effective at combat.
Spamming or not is not based only on the cooldowns.
With the weapon ability, there is a small delay between activation of the #1 key. It's a noticeable delay - 1-3 seconds.
You can mash the 1 button as many times as you wish during that delay and you will not trigger your weapon ability again - unless you successfully hit the sweet spot on the QTE.
If you do successfully hit the sweet spot, you will be rewarded with an extra attack - in the live game, that will most likely be the next ability in the combo chain.
Trying to spam the #1 button would be like wildly waving your bat at base and hoping it connects meaningfully with the ball. Doing so will be ineffective the vast majority of the time - and you would be stuck just doing your basic attack at the fixed interval of the delay...and you would not build Focus.
At PAX, the weapon skill would be the most frequently used skill - but that does not equate with spamming. Spamming the weapon skill will muck up your timing for the QTE.
The limit for how quickly you can trigger your weapon skill is not cooldowns. That limit is determined by a fixed delay of 1-3 seconds - which can be "decreased" by successfully hitting the sweet spot on the QTE and gaining an extra attack.
If the sweet spot for the QTE were fixed rather than random, players could spam the #1 key by memorizing the rhythm - players wouldn't have to pay attention to bar at all, they would just tap out the rhythm of the QTE.
Because the sweet spot is random, they have to visually focus on the bar rather than ignoring the bar and relying upon a fixed rhythm/timing.
But, like any hand-eye coordination task, success improves with practice.
I'm talking about the game that I played at PAX and the game design Jeffrey Bard described to me at PAX.
How effective someone will be with the QTE will largely depend on the weapon chosen. How effective someone will be at overall combat will also largely depend on the specific set of abilities and augments the individual chooses to place on the hot-bar.
If you aren't going to focus on using weapon combos during combat, the wise choice will be to choose non-weapon abilities and augments and potions, etc, which will compensate.
Which, again, is why the hot-bar is limited to 10 slots rather than allowing for 40+ abilities.
Our disagreement comes from the fact that you are making assumptions based on what you've seen rather than based on playing the actual combat and asking the devs about the design of Ashes combat.
At the moment, I'm burnt out on the EQ/WoW style MMORPGs and won't play unless the game is similar to EQN.
I'm currently playing NMS, Fortnite and Absolver.
I.e. a cooldown of 1-3 seconds.
So not hitting the QTE means you won't be able to use your ultimate, you'll be locked out of potentially better augments, and you will have multiple periods where you aren't able to do anything. Systems are built around it, and you'll never be as effective as someone that does try for the QTE. But because you have the choice to not do it, it isn't fundamental or important. Right.
I could go on about how silly that position is, but I don't see the point you are trying to get after with this whole line of argument.
The devs don't want people memorizing the rhythm because that leads to spamming - and the devs want to avoid that. Fixed sweet spot means that it's easier to succssfuly hit the spot and more importantly, easier to do so without thinking about it.
Hence the whole reason for making it random.
You don't have to accept that, but the devs are better game designers than you are.
Cool-downs last significantly longer than 1-3 seconds.
Not building Focus means you won't be able to use the Ultimate. Doesn't necessarily mean that Ultimate will be your most powerful attack or that your most powerful attack will need Focus. That all depends on how you spec your build.
Not building Focus doesn't lock you out of augments.
During combat there will be moments when you can't use your abilities, regardless. If that were not the case, people would be spamming and button-mashing and face-rolling...which is what the devs don't want.
A person who doesn't rely on the QTE can be as effective as those who try for the QTE, if they choose their weapons and abilities accordingly. All depends on how they spec their character and craft their weapons.
The QTE combos are not fundamental to combat because people can choose to engage in combat without triggering the QTEs. The QTE is advanced combat.
That is trivial, but true. Silly is subjective.
If Devs don't want this Game changing into a F2P in less than a 3 -4 Months, then it's Community is (always) 1st priority. However, it will not contest to the " Original Plans " that Mr. Sharif has set-out for this MMO .But rather, Mr. Sharif (hopefully) allowing his Community Fan-base to add input and/or emphasis to his Plans.
Additionally, nothing is considered " (near) fundamental " until we see the Alpha/ Beta and - mostly importantly, The Finished-Product. I'm certain that Devs will constantly Discuss & Deliberate all of that with the help of the Community's POVs
( i.e. ... you can't please everyone, but they'll try their best to do so
( If it can't be P2P ... at least B2P
Memorising a rhythm does not lead to spamming. It does lead to very set rotations, which really is as boring as spamming from a gameplay perspective.
The fact that the devs are game designers and we aren't, by the very definition makes them better game designers than those of us that are not. That doesn't mean that they are always right - they even acknowledged this in the PAX panel. The gaming landscape is littered with failed games that failed because of only one thing - bad game design. And these games were made by devs that were better game designers than you or me.
Our role as enthusiastic followers of this game is to praise what we see as good and constructively criticise what we feel is bad - all in the hopes of making a better game for all of us to play. None of us will see everything we want come to fruition, but none of us should stop trying just because we accept that reality. Passion over a game that is years away is admirable and a testament to the vision that has brought us all here.
Some cooldowns are one second, some are less, some are 2 minutes. There is no standard length for skill cooldowns. None.
We still know so little about the combat system that making set statements about how a character will be put together are simply assumptions on our part. What we can say is that if there is a mechanic in the game that if used correctly will provide tangible benefit to your character's performance, and you do not use it, then you will not be as effective as you could be, and not as effective as other players of your same class.
Specifics are still just unknown but I will happily gimp myself in combat by not using this QTE bar, mainly because it ruins the immersion of the combat. Not because of any fundamental disagreement on design philosophy but because I simply can't see it being fun and can only see it as detrimental to my enjoyment of what is shaping up to be a very beautiful and engaging game.
The community will be able to add input which will tweak the game design.
But, it doesn't matter whether players want to have fast travel everywhere.
It doesn't matter whether players want to have 10 Metropolises rather than 5.
It doesn't matter whether players want Halflings as a playable race.
It doesn't matter whether players want guns in the game.
It doesn't matter whether players want no tab-target.
It doesn't matter whether players want a separate PvP server or a separate RP server.
Players will get to tweak the design - the devs are not going to fundamentally overhaul their design just to suit a vocal minority - especially not for a vocal minority who haven't even played the game yet.
Community is never the #1 priority when it comes to game design because the community is not made up of professional game designers.
But, just to start - memorizing the rhythm of the QTE has absolutely nothing to do with rotation.
In Ashes, rotation is an aspect of the non-weapon abilities; not the weapon abilities.
A QTE means there is a hard, low cap on how good you can be, and that outside factors like ping and framerate will be a significant factor in your combat ability. A memorizable pattern will let practice and effort be rewarded, and skill can overcome those outside factors (i.e. even with 200+ ping, as long as its consistent, a fixed point can be hit by someone who is experienced at hitting it with that much latency, but a QTE will always be failed). You claim that being able to hit the point without thinking is a negative, but the ability to actually show your expertise with a weapon is, in fact, a benefit.
They have literally said that they will remove the QTEs if there is enough push back on that system. So that's what I am doing, pushing back on QTEs.
Point being the devs shouldn't have to cater to people who don't want to or can't upgrade their rigs to properly run the game or the small minority of people who live in the remotest of places and just have crap internet speeds all the time. Doing so limits their possibilities and ability to bring their design to full fruition.
I am in no way supporting the qte with this post, but instead am just pointing out a piece of an argument that isn't realistic if the devs are to have creative freedom.
I have not played the combat, so take that in mind however I have almost four years experience working on prototype MMO combat systems and can say that the core combat system can be in flux until the last 5-6 months before release. It's one of the most important features and it is worked on near the start of the project, but continues to be worked on and rebuilt until near launch.
Feedback is critically important in this phase of AoC's development, but at the same time, the combat system is likely to be rebuilt at least twice before release. So don't feel particularly panicked about the combat system until we enter the late closed beta phase. Everything can be changed, and there is no reason for hyperbole or anger. But continue with constructive feedback, but remember AoC is less than one year into a typically 5 year development cycle.
Furthermore, AoC's core design and focus is not a combat system, it's the sandbox/political/dynamic world features which are the central focus and are meant to reach an underserved market. If the combat ends up being similar to currently existing games or of mediocre quality, that is unlikely to harm the game too much. If combat is what you are looking for, there are plenty of titles that have you covered. If it's complex political and dynamic world systems, you have little to no modern options. That is AoC's niche and market.
After listening to the excellent From the Ashes podcast I am going to reserve all further judgement on the combat until a little more is known. I really like the combo system and combat skill chaining (I have liked it everywhere I have found it) but I dislike the QTE event (whether it be a bar, a circle or a trapezoid). I really hope they come up with a different mechanic to showcase the combo abilities but I am happy to wait until we see where it goes.
But, that is completely beside the point.
Even a poorly designed game is going to better designed than what layman can design.
Also, I was not making a general statement, rather I was making a specific statement.
Critique away. I haven't said anything like don't critique, but...
Your critique won't carry much weight if you have only seen vids of a pre-alpha, rather than having hands-on with the pre-alpha, and...
Just because you provide feedback about what you don't like, doesn't mean you have the knowledge or training to provide viable solutions - especially viable solutions that fit the rest of the game design... when you know next to nothing about the game design.
Vid or it didn't happen.
There is no standard length for a cool-down, but devs don't add cool-downs for just one second delays.
It's wasted graphics and coding to display.
1: I have actually had conversations with devs.
2: Doesn't really matter whether you are as effective as you could be. What matters is that you are adequately effective - as effective as you're comfortable with.
3: The devs have already stated that there are several paths to being effective. Just because you avoid using the QTE does not mean that you can't compensate by concentrating on other mechanics and abilities. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
That's right. Play the way you like to play.