Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
If you want a circle rather than a bar, you can do that.
If you want to resize that element by making it smaller, you can do that.
If you want to place it in the middle of the screen or off to one side, you can do that.
If you want to make it more transparent, you can do that.
Already part of the game design before feedback from PAX.
Character animations and sound effects would not work as a replacement for the QTE.
Color particles for spells seems to be a completely different feature. The game design already includes that as skins and possibly as augments.
Trying to use a glow of some type on the character model also wouldn't work because the challenge is both timing and placement - whereas glow on the character is just timing.
Plus, the devs would have to worry about what colors would provide sufficient contrast against whatever colors the character is wearing.
Are people Generally okay with the QTE? Got any statistic to back up that claim thats actually valid?
Well actually its been quite common counter argument here, that "no need to give feedback, because pre-alpha"..
I am not a fan of this current combo system either. I have not liked QTE systems in other games and i am not sure if AoC will do any exception with this. However i am not going to say my final word before i am personally tested this out. But without testing i can still see this causing different kind of problems. If those problems are not solved early enough, we will have shit combat and that can be deal breaker for many players even the game is how good.
People have not been saying no need to give criticism because pre-alpha.
Rather people have been saying keep in mind that it's pre-alpha, a rough draft and unfinished as you give criticism.
None of us are sure if the QTE will be enjoyable in its final iteration.
Everyone who played it agrees it needs more work - at best.
The devs are going to change the QTE to better fit the game design before Alpha 0. They're going to continue to iterate and to change it based on player feedback from Alpha 0, Alpha 1 and Alpha 2, and Beta 1 and Beta 2...
But, it's going to remain for the foreseeable future regardless of whether some people don't like QTEs.
"Are people Generally okay with the QTE? Got any statistic to back up that claim thats actually valid?"
Infact
"Everyone who played it agrees it needs more work - at best." Is a general contridiction to your statement.
Also once again everyone here understands its pre-alpha, everyone understands it can and will change
or evolve in some way. Everything you stated there is obvious.
And you are saying its okay to give feedback. So whats the issue? This is a thread to discuss the feedback
I gave, and possibly think of or list different alternatives and others opinions regarding the combat.
Overwhelmingly so at PAX. I am not aware of any statistics being taken.
If people were not generally OK with the combat at PAX, the lines would not have remained long and people would not have played multiple times.
Everyone agrees that combat needs more work is not a contradiction.
Just like pancake batter can be OK but everyone agree that the batter needs to be cooked in order to be finished.
The issue is with your statement that the only way they will know what needs to be changed is from our feedback. That statement is false. I am correcting it.
I dunno why you would want to make an obviously false statement - but if you admit that the statement is obviously false. Great!
I disagree, feedback has been taken and deemed relevent, just because you consider it irrelevent doesnt make it so. So to make a long story short, you personally have no concept of how relevent or not this feedback is, secondly you have no statistics backing up your claim that "Everyone is okay with the QTE".
"We think feedback is important, but are going to give weight to feedback from people who have actually touched the game, especially once we get to alpha/beta phases."
Yes, you are more correct about this statement. However there are professional and critical reviewers that went to PAX, said nothing while there and did negative reviews on several aspects of the game afterwards. Not to mention, people were sold on the concept "of what it could be" opposed to what we currently have.
Fevir is one person that played it.
Another is MMOgames Nick Shively:
http://www.mmogames.com/gamearticles/pax-west-hands-on-ashes-of-creation/
Another is Mithrandiel:
http://mithicalentertainment.com/pax-west-exclusive-interview-jeffrey-bard/
Just to supply some of the many articles post PAX. Even people in my youtube comments who went to PAX agree to everything i pointed out that could be changed for the better. So is my feedback made irrelevent just because you consider it so? No. Its no. Its just irrelevent to you.
Even Isarii, who liked the premise of the combo system:
https://ashenfoundry.com/articles/pax-combo-system/
Agreed with the criticism I provided in my video. I mean for the most part its logical, and clearly if they had "already thought of it" they would of done it initally.
As for the "Weighted feedback" specifically, I can assure you they will have that very soon. And to follow up the second portion regarding "having an agenda". Of course I do. Making sure this game is as successful as it possibly can is most certainly my agenda, as ultimately we all want
a strong contendor for an MMORPG to play, and settling for substandard core mechanics isnt acceptable imo.
Admittedly, I wasn't at PAX, so I'm in no position to take a strong stance one way or the other. I can only speak of my impressions based on the available footage.
Thus, while initial impressions don't have me enthusiastic, I'll refrain from judgment until trying the game in alpha.
Not many are going to stand in font of the devs and say 'your combat is bad'.
Many will however remain silent and comment later.
Like we saw with the youtube videos and negative reviews.
That doesnt mean combat 'is' bad.
But it does mean those who dont comment reserved comment for a reason.
Many people actually dont like to make a scene in public.
Many people backed into a corner may also tell you exactly what you want to hear.
So that everything ....appears... 'overwhelmingly positive'
Thats why you try to conduct neutral polls to ensure you get 'genuine' feedback where people are not pressured and can speak frankly.
Thats why you have polling stations and such for instance.
Thats why you dont allow those affected by the poll to conduct the poll.
Like trion asking for unbiased opinions on their forums and then banning people for giving unbiased opinion.
I too can ignore and silence negative views and thus state the general view is positive
Anyway...I am giving the impression PAX was bad.
PAX was a wonderful success with overwhelming positives to be taken away.
Precision bar for combat: unacceptable
Reason: Latency, and frequency of application
Example: ESO animation canceling
Conclusion: Precision timed combat mechanics just aren't viable in mass player combat; We'll all need internet traffic VPN routers to "git gud". Hand over hand abilities, minimal crowd control, and a global cooldown that doesn't get sped up is the better way to go. If it's innovative combat, cool, but most importantly it needs to be reliable.
I believe Wildstar has a video (DevSpeak: Aiming) showing the various iterations of combat they went through before settling on their telegraph system. I don't know if any of the early systems were publicly playable.
Also, when did reflexes lose skill status?
Reaction can be mental thought process to, the way you react to a situation. Thats why some thing like "Chess" is regarded as a game of skill, even without a timer present (though higher tier play often uses timers to demonstrate a higher level of skill obviously). Even though chess is turnbased, its a game of skill as you need to think ahead of what moves to use when and where.
With the current QTE there is only one option present, which is to succeed, as failure isnt an option really. There is no strategic element to it, there is no decision to make really. And in terms of physical reaction, Its hardly a hard task to achieve.
2005 MMORPG, Cabal Online has a similar QTE event, though it was slightly different as the "precision" zone was often towards the end of the bar, though thats a minor difference.
After a while it becomes a tedious second nature, much like in survival games eating food every 5 minutes even though you have an infinite supply of food as your disposal in the endgame.
Cabal Online 2, replaced the QTE event bar in favour of a more complex and thoughtout combo system, and as you can see by the design change the pace of battle flows more freely, while still having things to "react" too (combo presses).
As I stated in the video in the original post. Its not like there a major problem with the QTE as "game element" its just theres alot of other options out there, that havent been done or tried, that are simply better imo. Thats just my opinion, but seems some people share that sentiment.
QTE bars is something thats been done before in alot of elements of different games. FF14 1.0 had them in gathering, which were removed, and turned into Golden saucer minigames in FF14 ARR.
Cabal Online used them as a mainstaple for combat, which wasn't inhereited to the sequal. Some games have used them as a taming element. QTE bars often have limited success in MMO's. Usually QTE events are something you find in singleplayer games, or games with cover system such as gears of war reloading.
In general the most successful QTE's to be used were when "expanding" content (cutscenes or trigger event reactions such as rocks falling), and generally disliked when used as a combat element (Resident Evil 5 co-op..... Such bad memeories).
I agree that Sports and various strategy oriented games (along with others) might be better examples of a skill, but that does not make other skills not skills. If an NBA star can make a 3-point shot without trying does that mean that's no longer a skill?
Take PvE dungeon instances. The pioneers of those dungeons would have died and died and died and died and died and died......until eventually they got a clear. Then they get more clears more often. Eventually they clear it without fail.
New players start and watch a video. They clear the same dungeon 1st time instead of the 100s of times the pioneers took. Are the new players more skilled because they did it 1st time ?
Skill comes through adapting and overcoming your environment. Once you have adapted to the environment, memory takes over and skill is not required. The youtube video provides the memory in this case.
Show me someone who survives in a constantly changing environment where they have to constantly adapt.....and I will show you a skilled person.
Hit anything that moves....doesnt have much depth.
I still plenty of people being hyped and more coming everyday so I guess the communities you are part of are the ones that fall into the category of not liking this flavour. I personally am still very excited about this game, because I got faith in the core mechanics of the game and the development team, and I'm sure they will choose the right path for combat as well. Feedback has been given, now let's give them time to implement said feedback and wait for a next build of combat.
Game still hasn't entered family/friends testing
Over a year away from Alpha 1 testing
RIP Ashes