Female Representation Pitfalls (AKA "The Chainmail Bikini")

ArchivedUser

Nelirya said:

BraneGames said:

Argentdawn said:

BraneGames said:

MADE said:

Yeah, a bikini chain mail is not good cause it's not realistic for armor, but:
-conjuring fire/ice/etc from nothing and shoting with it is fine
-teleporting is fine too (fuck physic, it's realistic!!!!)
-resurecting dead and sumoning random beings are 100% fine and realistic too
-geting hit by a twohanded weapon while wearing nothing but cloth and not dying instantly is fine
-carrying tons of stuff in a basically invicible bag is realistic to, isn't it?
-geting a spear out from nowere, piercing someone from tens of meters with it, and then pulling it to you, while the victim survives it is 100% realistic, didn't you know that in the ancient times people fighted like that?
-magically becoming weaker from nothing if you kill someone is realistic too (corruption)
-etc...

Such hypocrat. This game is already very far from realistic, but it's not problem in every other aspect, but only when it comes to something that you don't like....

As long as there are magic in the game, you can at any point say that this armor is magic too, so it gives you protection.

Also for the immersion, yep, very immersive...https://imgur.com/a/qArdW

A sense of realism in games is often quite important in order for people to immerse themselves. A lot of people (myself included) at least needs some reasoning behind things such as bikini armor ingame for it to make sense, and I personally like bulkier, more protective armor on my character

I tend to stick to heavier armor as well I like to bulky/heavy look. But theres times I wanna throw on some trunks and /waterfloat and other times I'll throw on a poncho and afk near a fire. 

And I definitely think that there should be room for both

See there's a great point; "room for both".
I don't understand people who are so set on getting it their way that they can't accept other's opinions. We are supposed to be building a co-operative and inclusive community (or at least we should try). Then surely enough accepting other's opinions should be an obvious thing?

I love feminine and beautiful armours with high heels for my characters (as long as it is designed to suit the world), because that's my style. Yet I am completely in favour for having a choice of armour with flat shoes and more "bulky/heavy" appearances as well.

I believe that "choice" is the answer, if you don't like a certain appearance; DON'T wear it, wear something else, but let people choose what they want to wear. I just don't believe it's fair to insist that just because some people don't like a certain appearance, that it should not exist in the world.

But hey, that's just my opinion

That was exactly the point I was trying to get at. If I'm playing a male character and I wanna dress slutty, it would be nice to have the chance to as long as it fits within the world. I'm always gonna be capable of understanding if Intrepid do not want to put in cars and robotic suits, but different styles of armor would be awesome!

ArchivedUser

Namai said:

I'm curious as to where peoples mind is on this topic in relation to non-armor clothing.

I mean, it isn't as if a mage is wearing cloth as a form of protection, so the argument about practicality (that I completely agree with) doesn't hold any weight there.

Role playing in a tavern as the drunk trolling for mates could be an argument for flashing flesh I hope the community doesn't degrade to enabling the deviant exhibitionists that seem to lead to chain a--l posts.
However natural textile fiber can constitute practical armor, I recomend that you research silk,felt and woven hair armor as sharpened steel will not slice it and low caliber handguns do not penetrate it.

ArchivedUser

full plate should mean full, ok, that's fair, but it shouldnt transform a woman in a bulky truck driver.
For the other level of armor, its a magical world, thinking only in term of metal=protection is wrong. And like Fyziks said, just remenber that big metal protection has been abandonned for our soldier, and replaced by magical vest.. euh, sorry fiber : until the 1970 it was mainly ballistic nylon, then kevlar. The spider silk is currently very seriously tested to replace the kevlar.
a fun fact is that a bulletproof silk vest was invented around 1900s by a polish inventor Casimir Zeglen, and many head of state bought them. Franz Ferdinand could have bought one, and the first world war may not have begun by his death. Test with the same caliber show that its really got bullet stopping capabilities.

In some culture warrior woven their hair, to help protect their neck agains cutting instrument, and yes, it can help for a grazing blow

ArchivedUser

The spider silk is currently very seriously tested to replace the kevlar.

Off topic:

Bulletproof graphene makes ultra-strong body armour. Layers of carbon one-atom thick can absorb blows that would punch through steel. ... Graphene is a sheet of single carbon atoms bonded together in a honeycomb shape.

ArchivedUser

Noaani said:

I actually see two issues at play in this one topic.

The first is objectification. Personally, I'm fine with that as long as all objectification is equal.

The second is in game representation of function, this is where I personally take issue with actual in game chainmail bikinis.

In a game that has non-trivial PvP elements, I should be able to look at a group of characters from afar, see how many are wearing plate or cloth and have a fairly good idea of what to expect. If a character in game has the stats of full plate, then that character should appear to be wearing full plate. If a character has half the stats of full plate, then wearing half a full plate suit seems appropriate.

While I fully understand the importance of players being able to customize how their characters look, I am a firm believer that form should never take priority over function.

So basically, I'm fine with a bikini, just not a chainmail one.

Yeah. This is the main problem at the end of the day. Player feedback in combat. Or to be more accurate ...obfuscation of player feedback. Chainmail bikini rated as 'heavy armour' gear is a prime example. Hell even light armour is a stretch, as exactly zero vital organs are covered let alone prevention from being dismembered.

So they fall back to the tried and trusted.....because magic. Personally I dont give a crap what you wear outside of combat as long as it fits the gamestyle. But armour needs to be cosmetically functional (feedback) and not just eye candy.

ArchivedUser

I think the word 'Fantasy' has not been used to describe this game. But we must stay away from the word 'Fantasize' as most 12 year old boys and some adults seem to inflicted with this word.
In the end its up to the devs to do the right thing by all players. 

ArchivedUser

Noaani said:

The second is in game representation of function, this is where I personally take issue with actual in game chainmail bikinis.

In a game that has non-trivial PvP elements, I should be able to look at a group of characters from afar, see how many are wearing plate or cloth and have a fairly good idea of what to expect. If a character in game has the stats of full plate, then that character should appear to be wearing full plate. If a character has half the stats of full plate, then wearing half a full plate suit seems appropriate.

While I fully understand the importance of players being able to customize how their characters look, I am a firm believer that form should never take priority over function.

So basically, I'm fine with a bikini, just not a chainmail one.

Bullshit. A high level PvP player doesn't even care how your opponents looks, and only cares about pure stat info at tooltips and bars. lol you don't even have time to stare at your enemy at high level...
Not to mention that a high level player have maxed out camera, so you doesn't even see how your enemy looks...


Your option have no validity even at low skill level. In a game the look of armor doesn't mean anything. You can have a full plate, that looks heavy and thick yet it can be much weaker in terms of protection than cloth armor. Why? you see... item level...
Yeah, there are one exception though. If there are only one armor set for every level, which appearance can't be changed, then you can determine your oponents strenght.(like in older wow expansions wotlk, bc) But evne in this case, you can determine your opponent's strengh purely by the hp amount.
However do you expect this game only having like 3 type of armor and no transmografy like option to change armor appearance?

ArchivedUser

full plate should mean full, ok, that's fair, but it shouldnt transform a woman in a bulky truck driver.
For the other level of armor, its a magical world, thinking only in term of metal=protection is wrong. And like Fyziks said, just remenber that big metal protection has been abandonned for our soldier, and replaced by magical vest.. euh, sorry fiber : until the 1970 it was mainly ballistic nylon, then kevlar. The spider silk is currently very seriously tested to replace the kevlar.
a fun fact is that a bulletproof silk vest was invented around 1900s by a polish inventor Casimir Zeglen, and many head of state bought them. Franz Ferdinand could have bought one, and the first world war may not have begun by his death. Test with the same caliber show that its really got bullet stopping capabilities.

ArchivedUser

There is absolutely objectification of woman in MMOs.  It has nothing to do with being feminist or not.  It’s fact, especially in Asian themed MMOs.

Armour that is revealing is also not to practical.  Yet, big spikes on oversized shoulder plates is also not practical for armour, but it does not objectify human beings.  =} Nevertheless, there is stylized type of armour that can meet a middle ground for most players.  And sounds like for AoC it’s going to be more on the practical side.

ArchivedUser

MADE said:

A high level PvP player

There are other player types in the game, and everyone will need to PvP at some point in this game.

When you base a game around high level PvP players, you end up with a game with no one BUT high level PvP players - who have proven in other MMO's to leave the game as soon as their side gets beaten.

To be honest, I didn't even read your post past the above quoted statement, I didn't see the need to.

ArchivedUser

Humiliation, ridicule, condescension.
The tools of the trade for the tyrant to try and apply leverage for their opinion.

ArchivedUser

MADE said:

Bullshit. A high level PvP player doesn't even care how your opponents looks, and only cares about pure stat info at tooltips and bars. 

MADE said:

You argue with something, that only a high level PvP players would do (judge their enemy based on gear)

What?

ArchivedUser

I'm gonna throw in my two cents and say I would very much like to see this not be another skimpy armor MMO for females. Especially when it comes to high heels this is just a bad idea. As a costume item I can see, if it has no specs other than a +1 Charisma boost and -75% movement speed, and take damage every couple steps. Having a female adventurer boot with a "slight" heel would be acceptable, but high heels are so insanely impractical that it completely throws all emersion out the window. And if you disagree with this then I strongly recommend you throw on a pair of high heels and try to run a lap around a track, not only will this severely effect your time, it will tear the hell out of your heels and/or ankles. 

ArchivedUser

The art and screens suggest that there are going to be clothing styles for all kinds of players. It will be their choice that determines what thay want to wear and what becomes popular. 

If my cleric decides to go mine rocks looking like a princess, than I am just as free to do so as the fighter that wants to look like an intimidating tin can.  and I doubt either will truly give a pvp player pause about where they should attack them as much as whatever hp and level they have.

I'm more worried about looking all white eyed when being a cleric.  I want to see where I'm casting!

ArchivedUser

Edit: Double post i guess xD

ArchivedUser

You know, the nice thing about fantasy themed games is that they can have the most stupid, unrealistic and improbable things ever. Like spitting fire from your mouth and not burn yourself, teleport and defy physics or fighting with high heels without having any balance issues. If you want to be immersed in just one style then you should have the option to do so, however, you should not dictate how others should immerse themselves on such diverse themes within the fantasy genre. As long IS provide the tools to satisfy both parties i don't see any problem. Don't like bikini armors? Don't dress your characters as such. I personally don't like them either but to each his own.

And regarding "objectification" of human beings in games, as mentioned in older replies, i always found that to be the most absurd topic ever. Why would someone care about how female/male pixels looks in games? One thing is having objectification in real life, like for example, some company boss demanding their female workers to wear japanese highschool outfits..lol, other thing is people having some fun with 2D humanoid models that have no feelings to begin with. You control those models and beat the shit out of them sometimes. They indeed ARE objects and nothing else. Honestly, not being able to separate real life from fantasy and bringing real life issues to something that should only be fun and games is a very sad trend that plagues society these days.

ArchivedUser

Elderborn said:

There is absolutely objectification of woman in MMOs.  It has nothing to do with being feminist or not.  It’s fact, especially in Asian themed MMOs.

Every MMO that allows a female characters to prance around in a bikini also allows a male character to prance around in tighty whities.

I am offended by neither.

Elderborn said:
Armour that is revealing is also not to practical.  Yet, big spikes on oversized shoulder plates is also not practical for armour, but it does not objectify human beings.  =} Nevertheless, there is stylized type of armour that can meet a middle ground for most players.  And sounds like for AoC it’s going to be more on the practical side.

In my opinion, the answer is simple: provide attractive realistic armour options for those who like the look, and provide attractive stylized armour for those who prefer that look.

Elderborn said:

There is absolutely objectification of woman in MMOs. 

I'm seeing that word thrown around far too liberally.

I've played games in which there was more dev time spent on perfecting the boob-jiggle than the actual game play, or where most female characters were damsels-in-distress straight out of male fantasy - complete with partly opened mouth, tilted head, and half-closed eyes (and, once again, a ridiculous amount of boob-jiggle).

Those games could qualify as ones that indulge in objectification.

I have seen none of that in most of the MMOs I've seen, and there is zero indication that AoC is heading in that direction.

ArchivedUser

I hated female armors in ESO. Same as male. Robes heavy medium. Only I slight hint of chest that you had to imagine it was there.
I dont like bikini chains.
People argue about feminisms and not and other things.
Some female players like to show that they are playing a female fantasy fighter(not necesserily bikinis) some prefer realism.

Line][Age was a game with feminine armors that covered a good portion of the body, with nice semi revealing chests, skirts and pants that would make a girls booty look nice and boots/high heels.

Tldr i dont like chain bikinis
I dont like female charactets only looking like make in the same lpoking gear.

ArchivedUser

This thread reminds me of this youtube I found awhile ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vI5tdORhC0

ArchivedUser

Edit: Again a repeated post. This forum is messed up xD

ArchivedUser

When you tell your woman, "Hey, watch this, it is going to be so cool!" and she just says "OK?" and laughs. Must be what living with a fire mage is like.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1708018/Video-Man-sets-fire-toboggan-rides-stairs.html

ArchivedUser

So what you're trying to say is that you'd rock the armor I do in ESO =P

Bot life, best life

ArchivedUser

More of this:



Less of this

ArchivedUser

become undead we treat you all the same 

ArchivedUser

Belle-bot.exe ♡ said:

So what you're trying to say is that you'd rock the armor I do in ESO =P

Bot life, best life

A toga ON TOP of plated armor? That's sacrilege it is!

I tend to wear fashiona stuff personally, mixing up outfits to make a new look.  full armor cans or gear that makes the hair immediately become short or hidden I tend to avoid.

ArchivedUser

BraneGames said:

Nelirya said:

BraneGames said:

Argentdawn said:

BraneGames said:

MADE said:

Yeah, a bikini chain mail is not good cause it's not realistic for armor, but:
-conjuring fire/ice/etc from nothing and shoting with it is fine
-teleporting is fine too (fuck physic, it's realistic!!!!)
-resurecting dead and sumoning random beings are 100% fine and realistic too
-geting hit by a twohanded weapon while wearing nothing but cloth and not dying instantly is fine
-carrying tons of stuff in a basically invicible bag is realistic to, isn't it?
-geting a spear out from nowere, piercing someone from tens of meters with it, and then pulling it to you, while the victim survives it is 100% realistic, didn't you know that in the ancient times people fighted like that?
-magically becoming weaker from nothing if you kill someone is realistic too (corruption)
-etc...

Such hypocrat. This game is already very far from realistic, but it's not problem in every other aspect, but only when it comes to something that you don't like....

As long as there are magic in the game, you can at any point say that this armor is magic too, so it gives you protection.

Also for the immersion, yep, very immersive...https://imgur.com/a/qArdW

A sense of realism in games is often quite important in order for people to immerse themselves. A lot of people (myself included) at least needs some reasoning behind things such as bikini armor ingame for it to make sense, and I personally like bulkier, more protective armor on my character

I tend to stick to heavier armor as well I like to bulky/heavy look. But theres times I wanna throw on some trunks and /waterfloat and other times I'll throw on a poncho and afk near a fire. 

And I definitely think that there should be room for both

See there's a great point; "room for both".
I don't understand people who are so set on getting it their way that they can't accept other's opinions. We are supposed to be building a co-operative and inclusive community (or at least we should try). Then surely enough accepting other's opinions should be an obvious thing?

I love feminine and beautiful armours with high heels for my characters (as long as it is designed to suit the world), because that's my style. Yet I am completely in favour for having a choice of armour with flat shoes and more "bulky/heavy" appearances as well.

I believe that "choice" is the answer, if you don't like a certain appearance; DON'T wear it, wear something else, but let people choose what they want to wear. I just don't believe it's fair to insist that just because some people don't like a certain appearance, that it should not exist in the world.

But hey, that's just my opinion

That was exactly the point I was trying to get at. If I'm playing a male character and I wanna dress slutty, it would be nice to have the chance to as long as it fits within the world. I'm always gonna be capable of understanding if Intrepid do not want to put in cars and robotic suits, but different styles of armor would be awesome!

This! I don't want to see limitations in dressing options for my character just to keep it PG-13, and yet I expect it.

It would be nice to be able to wear anything you want doesn't matter how slutty, just don't give slutty pieces a high defensive value, make the items that expose skin give you little to no armor values.

ArchivedUser

Santy182 said:

BraneGames said:

Nelirya said:

BraneGames said:

Argentdawn said:

BraneGames said:

MADE said:

Yeah, a bikini chain mail is not good cause it's not realistic for armor, but:
-conjuring fire/ice/etc from nothing and shoting with it is fine
-teleporting is fine too (fuck physic, it's realistic!!!!)
-resurecting dead and sumoning random beings are 100% fine and realistic too
-geting hit by a twohanded weapon while wearing nothing but cloth and not dying instantly is fine
-carrying tons of stuff in a basically invicible bag is realistic to, isn't it?
-geting a spear out from nowere, piercing someone from tens of meters with it, and then pulling it to you, while the victim survives it is 100% realistic, didn't you know that in the ancient times people fighted like that?
-magically becoming weaker from nothing if you kill someone is realistic too (corruption)
-etc...

Such hypocrat. This game is already very far from realistic, but it's not problem in every other aspect, but only when it comes to something that you don't like....

As long as there are magic in the game, you can at any point say that this armor is magic too, so it gives you protection.

Also for the immersion, yep, very immersive...https://imgur.com/a/qArdW

A sense of realism in games is often quite important in order for people to immerse themselves. A lot of people (myself included) at least needs some reasoning behind things such as bikini armor ingame for it to make sense, and I personally like bulkier, more protective armor on my character

I tend to stick to heavier armor as well I like to bulky/heavy look. But theres times I wanna throw on some trunks and /waterfloat and other times I'll throw on a poncho and afk near a fire. 

And I definitely think that there should be room for both

See there's a great point; "room for both".
I don't understand people who are so set on getting it their way that they can't accept other's opinions. We are supposed to be building a co-operative and inclusive community (or at least we should try). Then surely enough accepting other's opinions should be an obvious thing?

I love feminine and beautiful armours with high heels for my characters (as long as it is designed to suit the world), because that's my style. Yet I am completely in favour for having a choice of armour with flat shoes and more "bulky/heavy" appearances as well.

I believe that "choice" is the answer, if you don't like a certain appearance; DON'T wear it, wear something else, but let people choose what they want to wear. I just don't believe it's fair to insist that just because some people don't like a certain appearance, that it should not exist in the world.

But hey, that's just my opinion

That was exactly the point I was trying to get at. If I'm playing a male character and I wanna dress slutty, it would be nice to have the chance to as long as it fits within the world. I'm always gonna be capable of understanding if Intrepid do not want to put in cars and robotic suits, but different styles of armor would be awesome!

This! I don't want to see limitations in dressing options for my character just to keep it PG-13, and yet I expect it.

It would be nice to be able to wear anything you want doesn't matter how slutty, just don't give slutty pieces a high defensive value, make the items that expose skin give you little to no armor values.

The stats have to give way at some point though, as people become stronger and artisans look for the next new clothes and armor to make.

ArchivedUser

This one below ... not sure if its Part-Leather. But seems like Armor

• 

This last one .. ... well ... its not full armor. But the Helmet made me like it . Plus she might be wearing a Chain Mail underneath

• 

ArchivedUser

Sexy armor without being naked xD

ArchivedUser

No Xena pics?