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Lets talk about the Elephant in the room(PvP), slowly creeping up on us

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Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Ferryman said:

    1.If there would be constant fear of getting killed it would take a lot out from exploring and players who dont want to participate PvP all the time.

    2. That is why current system has it place. It is there to cater these people and not PvP players whose focus is at ganking. It is just so simple. 

    1. "action of gathering flagging you shortly" does not interfear with exploring at all, nor it forces you to be in pvp all the time (also if you are in constant fear of getting killed you should really be playing some PvE game, and not a PvX game)

    2. "ganking" is killing lower levels, equal level fights are not ganking (also corruption will remain for ganking in full extent)


    So these claims you wrote don't counter Argentdawns post in any way.
  • Ferryman said:
    this is a player driven game/economy and to allow unchallenged gathering of world resources only takes out risk and challenge. A simple mechanic to allow you to defend or attack a resource would fix that point (like a short term combatant flag for gathering)


    Economy can be handled without making open world experience worse from PvE pov so you dont have to worrie about that. If there would be constant fear of getting killed it would take a lot out from exploring and players who dont want to participate PvP all the time. That is why current system has it place. It is there to cater these people and not PvP players whose focus is at ganking. It is just so simple. 
    I am curious as to what you think ganking is.. and you also say the economy will be handled but give no opinion or sources to back it up. Exploring should be dangerous.... Even Minecraft has creepers. if ashes just hands you everything I'm going to be very disappointed
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Apparently you didn't read a single page then. it has been explained until we are blue in the face why those types of pvp events wont work for so many of us.
    Repeating something until you are blue in the face does not make it rational or convincing.
  • I am curious as to what you think ganking is.. and you also say the economy will be handled but give no opinion or sources to back it up. Exploring should be dangerous.... Even Minecraft has creepers. if ashes just hands you everything I'm going to be very disappointed
    Gank - To kill, ambush, or defeat with little effort; used in online games.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    I think people keep confusing ganking with pvping. If I'm the same level as someone that's not ganking, if I only kill them once that's not griefing.
    If you force me to engage in combat when I am not in the mood after I explicitly tell you I am not in the mood, you are griefing.
    Just as if you force to engage in sex when I am not in the mood after I explicitly tell you I am not in the mood, you are griefing.
    Just as if you force me to eat when I am not in the mood after I explicitly tell you I am not in the mood, you are griefing.
    Doesn't matter how many times you force me to do something I have told you I am not in the mood to do.

    This is especially true if you ambush me while I'm out minding my own business after I've already had my fill of combat or sex or food.
    If you kill me when you know that I am not willing to fight you back, that is ganking.

    Doesn't matter whether you agree with that.
    The fact that people don't agree is why it's better to have separate server types where people who do share the same world view/playstyle can play together happily.

    Since that's not going to happen, we're going to have to deal with the Corruption system.
  • @Argentdawn

    You're still talking as though PKing won't happen as a result of Corruption. I have refuted that so many time's it's actually ridiculous. As I have said before, Corruption is not designed to prevent PKing, no matter how many times you guys say it is. The devs are not trying to "allow unchallenged gathering of world resources". If you have valuable resources and aren't careful about laying low, you will be PK'd.

    Sikuba said:
    That's just it, we have no idea how the system will be balanced when release comes. In my opinion, Corruption needs to be tuned and toned down a bit, as in certain situations, which were described in more detail previously in the thread, I definitely believe that the punishment is overly harsh.

    The occurrence or rarity of PKing is all determined by balancing Corruption with Loot Drop. An increase in Loot Drop or a decrease in Corruption penalties will result in more PKing. The converse would result in less PKing. If you wanted to get rid of Corruption, you would have to almost completely remove Loot Drop, and that would remove a lot of the incentive anyway.

    It's a balancing act, which I'm sure will be tested and altered extensively in the Alphas.
    As I have stated many times throughout the thread, Corruption is harsh for players with a single kill. Even though the corruption gain from one kill is minimal, any amount of Corruption will guarantee a costly death. I feel that this should be revised to make single kills of similarly leveled players less punishing.

    The point is, the system has the potential to be fair. As it stands, I agree that it favors PvEers to some extent, but not nearly to the point of being prohibitory. The system is designed to discourage griefing as well as to counteract the high incentive of loot drop. PKing for profit is not griefing, which is why I am confident that the system will be implemented such that good PKers will be able to make money - even with the Corruption penalties. PKing will be more focused on killing high-value targets than on killing swathes of people, and quite frankly, that's probably the way it should be. It makes a lot more sense to me from a realism standpoint.

    I hope that you guys can agree with this, or at least provide new, valid argument points so that I can see why you're still hung up on why the system is needed. I truly believe that PvPers and PKers will be able to enjoy doing what they love, even with Corruption. I may just be an Arena junkie, but I do care about PvP being a represented part of this game that provides the benefits necessary to be successful.

    - Sikuba
  • "No one will have sex with me unless I force them to!!"

  • I think the developers are going to implement whatever they see fit and only change it after they are completely sure it doesn't work how they wanted it. I'm pretty sure they are not going to change anything based on this discussion. I'm confident that they are aware of all of our concerns/ideas/etc, especially since this a sensitive subject with so many different interpretations.

    In other words, this discussion is kind of a waste of time. Everything that had to be said was said.
  • I made a thread to clear up any confusion as to what ganking is. Probably the worst idea ever seeing how I need to sleep. As far as griefing is concerned thats a case by case bases. What it is to you is not to someone else. If someone were to nicely ask me to stop I usually do. Now thats just me. But at the end of the day your in a pvp world and pvp things will happen grief or not.

    Oh one more thing. If someone goes apeshit ballistic cusses me out and so on. ( Cause I pvped in a pvp game....logic) They are going to have a terrible day ahead.
  • I actually don't believe flagging purple when gathering would necessarily ruin the game for gatherers. In most games, yes, it would entirely defeat the purpose of the Corruption system. But in AoC, resources spawn in random, much more diverse, less predictable locations. It would not be as punishing as you might initially think.

    At the same time, I don't believe it is necessary, but that doesn't mean it's not a possibility.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    You didn't clear up ganking.
    There are plenty of objective definitions - rather than subjective views.

    People have been told repeatedly that Ashes is a PvX world. Some people refuse to accept that.
    At the end of the day, Corruption for killing non-combatants will happen - like it or not.

    Refusing to attack back and remaining a non-combatant is a nice way of asking you to stop the attack, so you should have no complaint about the corruption system.
  • Dygz said:
    You didn't clear up ganking.
    There are plenty of objective definitions - rather than subjective views.

    People have been told repeatedly that Ashes is a PvX world. Some people refuse to accept that.
    At the end of the day, Corruption for killing non-combatants will happen - like it or not.
    Objective to a point. But considering all the years and the rankings I have held. I do feel I am far more of an expert on this subject than the average Joe. I am certainly more knowledgeable on it than you. You have a victim hood mentality actually comparing real life **** to pvp is a bit odd and over board. Yes you will get pvped even if you do not like it...................in a game that allows for pvp.............How is this confusing.

    Dygz:At the end of the day, Corruption for killing non-combatants will happen - like it or not.

    You love saying that don't you. Its like your ( IN YO FACEEE)  moment lol. Yes it will be in the game. But again as stated it may not be to extreme. Maybe it takes way more kills to ascertain accumulative points to have any negligible effects.Your disdain for pvp is off the charts.
  • Dygz said:

    If you force me to engage in combat when I am not in the mood after I explicitly tell you I am not in the mood, you are griefing.

    If you are not in mood to PvP you have an option to log out and go play something without PvP.

    If you stay, it's your choice. Not my problem if you are "in mood or not". At least it shouldn't be my problem unless game is PvE tagged.



    If someone hunted you down and kept killing you repeatedly for several hours, insulting you in the process, then you would see what griefing is.

    IF you are so sensitive that you are calling any PK griefing then you really shouldn't be playing this.

    At least Intrepid should't be designing corruption to protect you from any kills.... or well, maybe they want their game to be PvE. We shall see.
  • Gothix said:
    Dygz said:

    If you force me to engage in combat when I am not in the mood after I explicitly tell you I am not in the mood, you are griefing.

    If you are not in mood to PvP you have an option to log out and go play something without PvP.

    Think of that as a business model.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Dygz said:
    You didn't clear up ganking.
    There are plenty of objective definitions - rather than subjective views.

    People have been told repeatedly that Ashes is a PvX world. Some people refuse to accept that.
    At the end of the day, Corruption for killing non-combatants will happen - like it or not.
    Objective to a point. But considering all the years and the rankings I have held. I do feel I am far more of an expert on this subject than the average Joe. I am certainly more knowledgeable on it than you. You have a victim hood mentality actually comparing real life **** to pvp is a bit odd and over board. Yes you will get pvped even if you do not like it...................in a game that allows for pvp.............How is this confusing.

    Dygz:At the end of the day, Corruption for killing non-combatants will happen - like it or not.

    You love saying that don't you. Its like your ( IN YO FACEEE)  moment lol. Yes it will be in the game. But again as stated it may not be to extreme. Maybe it takes way more kills to ascertain accumulative points to have any negligible effects.Your disdain for pvp is off the charts.
    Right. What you "feel" about ganking and what you "feel" about your knowledge is really inconsequential compared to what is objectively true.

    We will get ganked in Ashes, and the people who do the ganking will be punished for it.
    The victim-hood mentality is coming from the people who feel they should not be penalized for the ganking they do.
    It's the people whining about being penalized with Corruption who are confused.
    "Why should I get Corruption?" ???? ???? !!!!

    If the initial effects of Corruption are negligible, there should be nothing for hardcore PvPers to whine about.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Noaani said:

    Think of that as a business model.

    Well your suggestion for a "business model" is pushing PvP-ers away.


    I didn't even suggest removing corruption.

    I merely suggested flagging people while gathering, so some competition around resource spots may be had.



    Eh, maybe I should start advocating for complete removal of corruption, full gear and money loot, and extra rewards for repeated killing of same targets (killing spree, domination, godlike). And all sorts of limitations for PvE, CDs for dungeons, CDs for gathering and crafting,... (energy pool from ArcheAge)

    Maybe after that suggesting only being tagged for a bit while gathering wouldn't sound so bad eh?
  • Gothix said:
    If you are not in mood to PvP you have an option to log out and go play something without PvP.

    If you stay, it's your choice. Not my problem if you are "in mood or not". At least it shouldn't be my problem unless game is PvE tagged.
    When I am not in the mood for PvP combat, I go focus on PvE activities in the game.
    That is my choice.
    Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do whether the person is in the mood or not is the mindset of a griefer.

    In Ashes, you will have the choice to kill me while I am green.
    If you do so, you will gain Corruption. Not my problem if you gain Corruption.
    I won't be forcing you to kill me against your will.

    Gothix said:
    IF you are so sensitive that you are calling any PK griefing then you really shouldn't be playing this.

    At least Intrepid should't be designing corruption to protect you from any kills.... or well, maybe they want their game to be PvE. We shall see.
    PKing is inherently griefing.
    Ashes will have plenty of opportunities for PvP combat that is not PKing.
    And plenty of opportunities for PKing - for those willing to accrue Corruption.
    If you are so sensitive about that, you really shouldn't be playing this game.
    Intrepid is designing Corruption to penalize people who kill me while I'm green.
    Ashes will have plenty of PvP and plenty of PvE.
    We shall see how large the population of hardcore PvPers will be in Ashes. I doubt they will be missed.
  • Dygz said:
    Dygz said:
    You didn't clear up ganking.
    There are plenty of objective definitions - rather than subjective views.

    People have been told repeatedly that Ashes is a PvX world. Some people refuse to accept that.
    At the end of the day, Corruption for killing non-combatants will happen - like it or not.
    Objective to a point. But considering all the years and the rankings I have held. I do feel I am far more of an expert on this subject than the average Joe. I am certainly more knowledgeable on it than you. You have a victim hood mentality actually comparing real life **** to pvp is a bit odd and over board. Yes you will get pvped even if you do not like it...................in a game that allows for pvp.............How is this confusing.

    Dygz:At the end of the day, Corruption for killing non-combatants will happen - like it or not.

    You love saying that don't you. Its like your ( IN YO FACEEE)  moment lol. Yes it will be in the game. But again as stated it may not be to extreme. Maybe it takes way more kills to ascertain accumulative points to have any negligible effects.Your disdain for pvp is off the charts.
    Right. What you "feel" about ganking and what you "feel" about your knowledge is really inconsequential compared to what is objectively true.

    We will get ganked in Ashes, and the people who do the ganking will be punished for it.
    The victim-hood mentality is coming from the people who feel they should not be penalized for the ganking they do.
    It's the people whining about being penalized with Corruption who are confused.
    "Why should I get Corruption?" ???? ???? !

    It is pretty much the standard. Also objectively to what truth yours? Almost 14 years of pvping compared to your I a am victim mindset. You literally compared real life **** to pvp............ Imagine someone who was a real victim and gets on here reads that. If the basis of your standards are comparative to things of that nature. Then yes I will easily proclaim I know exactly what is or is not in terms of pvp, next to you.

    Yes the people who PVP will get punished but to what extent we do not know. I do know its not I kill you one time and boom thats it. Maybe it takes 50 times who knows. People are not complaining about not being able to gank ( rolls eyes jebus)

    The only person whining is you. Its is a reasonable question in terms to how much and what extent for a game read carefully ( has open world pvp). So it does exists, and you will be killed.

    I know one thing for sure. Whatever server you are going on,thats the one I am joining.

    (( compares **** to a gd game)) I am killing you just for that alone
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Dygz said:

    We shall see how large the population of hardcore PvPers will be in Ashes. I doubt they will be missed.

    By you surely not. That's my point. You would like nothing better then for Ashes to be a PvE game, with only purely optional PvP (even though you might not care about that either).

    Will they be missed by Intrepid though. That remains to be seen.

    If things remain as they seem to be now, that population will be 0.
  • Gothix said:
    Noaani said:

    Think of that as a business model.

    Well your suggestion for a "business model" is pushing PvP-ers away.


    I didn't even suggest removing corruption.

    I merely suggested flagging people while gathering, so some competition around resource spots may be had.



    Eh, maybe I should start advocating for complete removal of corruption, full gear and money loot, and extra rewards for repeated killing of same targets (killing spree, domination, godlike). And all sorts of limitations for PvE, CDs for dungeons, CDs for gathering and crafting,... (energy pool from ArcheAge)

    Maybe after that suggesting only being tagged for a bit while gathering wouldn't sound so bad eh?
    Better pushing PvP'ers away than pushing everyone else away.

    And to be fair, it isn't pushing all PvP'ers away - only a sub-group of the PvP minority that want to focus on open world, 1v1 PvP. PvP'ers that are excited about large scale PvP aren't exactly being pushed away by any of this...

    Nor are PvP'ers that understand other points of view.
  • Noaani said:

    Better pushing PvP'ers away than pushing everyone else away.

    And to be fair, it isn't pushing all PvP'ers away - only a sub-group of the PvP minority that want to focus on open world, 1v1 PvP. PvP'ers that are excited about large scale PvP aren't exactly being pushed away by any of this...

    Nor are PvP'ers that understand other points of view.

    Being shortly flagged while gathering also wouldn't push all PvE-ers away, not even a small part.

    It would only "push away" super sensitive special snowflakes that want to avoid ALL PvP at all times, while still playing a PvX game.
  • Gothix said:
    Dygz said:

    We shall see how large the population of hardcore PvPers will be in Ashes. I doubt they will be missed.

    By you surely not. That's my point. You would like nothing better then for Ashes to be a PvE game, with only purely optional PvP (even though you might not care about that either).

    Will they be missed by Intrepid though. That remains to be seen.

    If things remain as they seem to be now, that population will be 0.
    Doesn't matter what I want.
    What Ashes will be is a PvX game that has Corruption as a penalty for killing non-combatants.
    My expectation is that Corruption will not be enough of a deterrent for casual PvPers and non-PvPers to be willing to play the game for long.
    But, we will have to play the game and see.
    Which is why I'm not being prejudiced and whining about a mechanic I haven't played yet.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    (( Dygz I'm not being prejudiced and whining about a mechanic I haven't played yet.

    My expectation is that Corruption will not be enough of a deterrent for casual PvPers and non-PvPers to be willing to play the game for long ))


    The Irony of this statement

  • It would be ironic if you could find a quote where I stated they really must change the Corruption system.
  • I appreciate most of the back and forth with constructive ideas... I am at this time backing out of the thread until more information is released because it's getting out of hand. I hope I'm wrong and the corruption system isn't as penalizing as it seems on paper. 
  • I hope that Steven has someone who reads all this and creates a TLDR for him,

    He would need to take a vacation to have time to go through all of this himself.  :p
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Nothing new here that Stephen hadn't already considered before coming up with the Corruption system.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    For the love of god close this fucking thread. quit the nonsense argument. y'all are repeating the same things over and over. And don't start the same shit in the ganking thread recently made either. 
  • As a backer it's disappointing to see this that this kinda generic corruption system is getting put in. Have faith there will come a time when developers will take a Laissez-faire approach to pvp, and simply more adequately build fundamental mechanics that allow players to self-police, rather than through a form of DM fiat.
  • phatcat09 said:
    As a backer it's disappointing to see this that this kinda generic corruption system is getting put in. Have faith there will come a time when developers will take a Laissez-faire approach to pvp, and simply more adequately build fundamental mechanics that allow players to self-police, rather than through a form of DM fiat.
    I know im being a hypocrite responding when i said close the thread but i couldn't help myself. Haven't heard such a good joke in a while. 

    "Players self policing". Ha good one you made me cry  :D:D
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