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Lets talk about the Elephant in the room(PvP), slowly creeping up on us

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Comments

  • I agree that a more eloquent solution could have been put in place. For a game that is supposedly breaking the meta of MMOs, this is a very safe, traditional choice. There's nothing really new or unique about it - it's blunt, numerical manipulation of risk vs reward.

    That said, it does not mean that it cannot function, and I think we all can agree at this point that some form of regulation must exist for the game itself to be stable, functional, and appealling to everyone.

    My reason for no longer arguing for a different system is that back several pages in the thread, it was mentioned that Corruptions is tied into the lore of the world itself. The depth and implications of this relation are unknowns, and I don't feel that I have the information necessary to determine whether or not Corruption can be removed without negatively impacting the stories or quest lines, etc.

    That is my personal hangup that prevents me from looking to replace or significantly reduce the scope of Corruption. For me, now, the point of debate has moved on to how the system can be further balanced or improved upon so that everyone can be satisfied to some extent.

    - Sikuba
  • Steven did a Podcast interview today and discussed this very subject.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/252860173?t=49m23s
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Gothix said:
    Noaani said:

    Better pushing PvP'ers away than pushing everyone else away.

    And to be fair, it isn't pushing all PvP'ers away - only a sub-group of the PvP minority that want to focus on open world, 1v1 PvP. PvP'ers that are excited about large scale PvP aren't exactly being pushed away by any of this...

    Nor are PvP'ers that understand other points of view.

    Being shortly flagged while gathering also wouldn't push all PvE-ers away, not even a small part.

    It would only "push away" super sensitive special snowflakes that want to avoid ALL PvP at all times, while still playing a PvX game.
    What that does is remove an option from gathers.

    If you are minding your own business harvesting materials for crafting, and someone comes up to you, interrupts you and takes a portion of what you have gathered, the game needs to provide a way for that harvester to give the PvP'er the proverbial finger.

    If gathering flags people for combat, a new system needs to be added to give the harvester a path of recourse.

    So many games lack this, and this is why players (PvE'ers and PvP'ers alike) get frustrated with a game. If a PvP'er with better gear, better game knowledge and/or better ping decides you aren't harvesting today, there is literally no path of recourse.

    This is an inherent, draconian design flaw. This is why so many games that put a focus on PvP end up with massive population drops after 3 - 6 months.

    If gathering resources were to flag people as combatants, a system would need to be put in place where a player wishing to harvest was able to do so, where that player had a course of action to take should someone decide that player is their content for the next hour.

    Without such a mechanic, adding your flag suggestion is a non-starter.
  • Some pages back I talked about an idea - of temporarily flagging (only one of) the resource you want to gather AND yourself as a combatant. Basically you can freely attack anyone that wants to harvest a resource you flagged. Do it to anyone else minding their own business and you get corruption.

    Risk vs reward.
  • lexmax said:
    Steven did a Podcast interview today and discussed this very subject.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/252860173?t=49m23s
    "Now, with regards to griefing - you're not going to see griefing in the game very often. And that's because our flagging system, the corruption mechanics, are based around disincentive-izing a griefer, or PK'er - but still offering the opportunity should the occasion arise where the benefits outweigh the risk, you have the ability to do so.

    Now, corruption, if you gain corruption, which is killing  a non-combatant - a player which is not fighting back, basically - if you gain that corruption, your world has changed. It's not going to be a very beneficial place to be. You going to have the potential of losing your gear, your combat efficacy decreases based on the amount of corruption you accrue. So, it is a comfortable balance between player agency - and griefing removing player agency from players."

    Personally, I think that speaks for itself.

    Steven is perfectly aware of this thread. But more importantly he already knows the different perspectives in regards to PvP - there is nothing in this thread that is new.

    So knowing all of the perspectives present, the above seems to be his his opinion.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    phatcat09 said:
    As a backer it's disappointing to see this that this kinda generic corruption system is getting put in. Have faith there will come a time when developers will take a Laissez-faire approach to pvp, and simply more adequately build fundamental mechanics that allow players to self-police, rather than through a form of DM fiat.
    I know im being a hypocrite responding when i said close the thread but i couldn't help myself. Haven't heard such a good joke in a while. 

    "Players self policing". Ha good one you made me cry  :D:D
    Humor me if you will, and let's assume it is possible. What means do you think at minimum would required for such a feat?
  • Humor me if you will, and let's assume it is possible. What means do you think at minimum would required for such a feat?

    How can you guarantee players will police themselves and not take the exact opposite route? Sure, there will be some "policemen", but how do you guarantee their numbers are going to be way more than the problem makers?


  • phatcat09 said:
    phatcat09 said:
    As a backer it's disappointing to see this that this kinda generic corruption system is getting put in. Have faith there will come a time when developers will take a Laissez-faire approach to pvp, and simply more adequately build fundamental mechanics that allow players to self-police, rather than through a form of DM fiat.
    I know im being a hypocrite responding when i said close the thread but i couldn't help myself. Haven't heard such a good joke in a while. 

    "Players self policing". Ha good one you made me cry  :D:D
    Humor me if you will, and let's assume it is possible. What means do you think at minimum would required for such a feat?
    There is no mechanic that could be put in place for self-policing that wouldn't itself be open to wide abuse.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    phatcat09 said:
    Humor me if you will, and let's assume it is possible. What means do you think at minimum would required for such a feat?
    It's not really possible.
    And, "self-policing" doesn't really solve the issue. It just adds more PvP combat to a MMORPG already overly saturated with PvP combat .
    Relatively few casual PvPers and non-Pvpers would be playing the game, so "self-policing" wouldn't really be necessary.
    It would just be a free-for all murderbox for hardcore PvPers.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    I have to agree, this thread has gotten out of hand. Instead for looking for common ground and solutions, It has turned (I wont name anyone), into repeating the same arguments, by extreme opinions from both sides. Both the extreme PvE :


    "I don't want/like any pvp and it should be deterred at any costs, you just want a murderbox >:(" 

    and the : 

    "It should be free for all, PvE players just need to suck it up"

    leads nowhere. 

    However I do have to say discussing the impact of the corruption system is valid and interesting. Since over-tuning it in one or the other way will have unpleasant effects. 

    I still think adding lawless zones to the mix, would be a good compromise without touching the corruption system. Put some more rewarding resources over there, to create a risk vs reward act. PVE players will not have to ever set foot in these zones if they don't want to (unless they want to risk it of course ^^), and more pvp oriented players can still get that open world pvp + fights over resources. 
     

  • Gothix said:
    Ferryman said:

    1.If there would be constant fear of getting killed it would take a lot out from exploring and players who dont want to participate PvP all the time.

    2. That is why current system has it place. It is there to cater these people and not PvP players whose focus is at ganking. It is just so simple. 

    1. "action of gathering flagging you shortly" does not interfear with exploring at all, nor it forces you to be in pvp all the time (also if you are in constant fear of getting killed you should really be playing some PvE game, and not a PvX game)

    2. "ganking" is killing lower levels, equal level fights are not ganking (also corruption will remain for ganking in full extent)


    So these claims you wrote don't counter Argentdawns post in any way.
    1. I was not speaking only about that, but also generally why corruption system has it place in current form. I know it is totally useless to even try explain you anything, you can only see your pov, which you think is the right one even its totally opposite than devs.

    Now i am not speaking behalf myself, but i can put myself to examine this from other players perspective. I know your intend is only to change current system cater your personal playstyle and to get more easy kills so your comments are never valid.

    2. On your dreamworld ganking means killing low levels, but welcome to play hardcore open world PvP games where ganking is common word to generally mean playerkilling.     
  • Zartas said:
    "I don't want/like any pvp and it should be deterred at any costs, you just want a murderbox >:(" 
    Except the only people saying that are the hardcore PvPers trying to put words in the mouths of people who support the current game design.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Dygz said:
    Zartas said:
    "I don't want/like any pvp and it should be deterred at any costs, you just want a murderbox >:(" 
    Except the only people saying that are the hardcore PvPers trying to put words in the mouths of people who support the current game design.
    Both sides have been flinging poo at each other, instead of actually having a meaningful constructive discussion.  

    The current game design might have flaws, certainly at this stage things will be subject to change. Discussing mechanics might potentially lead to new insights. 

    Anyway me typing this is already completely off topic, and I will not respond to anymore childish finger pointing games, of who said that or who put words in whose mouth. 
  • Ferryman said:
    this is a player driven game/economy and to allow unchallenged gathering of world resources only takes out risk and challenge. A simple mechanic to allow you to defend or attack a resource would fix that point (like a short term combatant flag for gathering)


    Economy can be handled without making open world experience worse from PvE pov so you dont have to worrie about that. If there would be constant fear of getting killed it would take a lot out from exploring and players who dont want to participate PvP all the time. That is why current system has it place. It is there to cater these people and not PvP players whose focus is at ganking. It is just so simple. 
    I am curious as to what you think ganking is.. and you also say the economy will be handled but give no opinion or sources to back it up. Exploring should be dangerous.... Even Minecraft has creepers. if ashes just hands you everything I'm going to be very disappointed
    Ganking is almost same as playerkilling. At least in hardcore PvP games there is not much difference. I would definitely separate it from grieffing.

    Exploring can be made dangerous also with PvE if needed. But it should not always be dangerous. One part of exploring is chance to stop enjoy the environment and make it chill. That will give more value to beautiful landscapes and such. If you need all the time look over your shoulder and be ready to move, then lots of this aspect will be lost. In games like Albion it does not matter, because the world itself is mostly shitty copy paste and there is basically nothing to see.

    I am not a player who categorize myself to one type of gamer. I have played lots of different kind of mmorpg's from PvE centric to HC PvP and everything between. Even i like to play full loot PvP games, i dont expect every game be the same. I respect and share IS' vision of their game and OW PvP rules. I could easily play more hardcore version, but most of players would not like it and i guess i wont too. 

    In games, which have gear drop and gear trash, it is quite easy to handle economy with that. In games where this is not an option it can be more challenging, but still doable. Here is few examples:
    • Some items decay with time and cannot be repaired forever.
    • Items can be salvaged back to materials (maybe -50%).
    • Some Items can be sold to NPCs.
    • Lower level Items can be used to repair other items.
    • Recipes can be found by learning item. Item will be destroyed at process. 
    • Items can be studied to get xp. Item will be destroyed at process. 
    • Preventing mass production with complex crafting.
    • Some items needs other items to craft.

  • Sikuba said:
    The system is designed to discourage griefing as well as to counteract the high incentive of loot drop. PKing for profit is not griefing, which is why I am confident that the system will be implemented such that good PKers will be able to make money - even with the Corruption penalties. PKing will be more focused on killing high-value targets than on killing swathes of people, and quite frankly, that's probably the way it should be. It makes a lot more sense to me from a realism standpoint.
    Excatly this. This will be line with "meaningful conflict" what it comes to PvP. This will make open world PvP interesting, when i need to choose wisely my targets and not just run around trying to kill everybody who crosses my path.  
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Both sides have been flinging poo at each other, instead of actually having a meaningful constructive discussion.  

    The current game design might have flaws, certainly at this stage things will be subject to change.
    The current game design might have flaws that will be tweaked - after we play the current design to see what needs changing rather than presuming that caravans, sieges and guild wars won't be sufficient.
    So, yeah, I am flinging poo at the folks who are whining about the inadequacy of features they haven't played yet.

    Discussing mechanics might potentially lead to new insights. 

    Anyway me typing this is already completely off topic, and I will not respond to anymore childish finger pointing games, of who said that or who put words in whose mouth. 
    Once we get in the game and see how prevalent PvP combat actually is, we can have some meaningful discussion about how the game design should be tweaked... including whether or not the Corruption system is working as the devs expected.

    Point fingers all you want.
    But, you know, best if you point them accurately.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    I am not the one, constantly accusing other players of "whining".
    Additionally flinging poo is never a good way have constructive discussion. Instead of trying to understand the other's point of view, useless debates have been made based on personal preferences of play styles. 

    Again I am not getting dragged into these games of childish accusations, as both sides (while at some points making valid points) have just been screaming at each other. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    I am accusing people of whining.
    Has nothing at all to do with a sentiment that there should be no PvP, or that PvP combat should be deterred at any costs.
    That actually is hardcore PvPers making stuff up so they can whine about caravans and castle sieges and node sieges and guild wars not being enough PvP combat - in addition to complaining that Ashes should not have a Corruption system.

    For some reason, those of you who want to discuss having a designated battlegrounds want to lump yourselves in with the people who are saying there should be no Corruption. You present your point as if everyone who supports the Corruption system would reject the inclusion of a designated battlegrounds.

    I haven't see anyone outright reject the idea, but...
    It doesn't seem to be something that Steven currently wants in the game.
    I don't necessarily care whether one is in the game, but...
    According to what we know of Steven's game design philosophy, it's highly unlikely that we will get one until Steven assesses the current systems during Alpha and Beta.
    It's not like Steven has never experienced designated battlegrounds before.
    IIRC, ESO had open world designated battlegrounds.

    Once people start twisting reality and making stuff up, in addition to flinging poo, the discussion is no longer constructive.
    If people wanna fling poo, I am happy to fling poo back.

    If people want to return to having a constructive discussion, it's easy enough to just return to facts and evidence associated with the Ashes game design and refrain from flinging poo.
    People will follow suit.

    You keep dragging yourself into the poo, despite saying you refuse to go.

    If you focus on what you really want to discuss on the topic, we could probably have the meaningful, constructive discussion you're craving.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    first of all I wasn't suggesting battlegrounds, nor was I suggesting the removal of the corruption system. I was proposing of having a compromise by adding lawless zones to the mix. As structured events such as the caravans castles sieges, etc are completely different from open world pvp. 

    as I said already two times, lawless zones would not hurt pve players nor the corruption system, while providing more hardcore orientated players the option for full on open world pvp.  

    I'll admit I might have gone overboard myself in the last two posts, my bad should have stayed on topic. At least I am not so stubborn to admit it. 


  • Zartas said:

    as I said already two times, lawless zones would not hurt pve players nor the corruption system, while providing more hardcore orientated players the option for full on open world pvp.

    It depends. These lawless zones will not hurt PvE players as long you cant get any benefits from lawless areas. If those zones have better resources, mobs with better loot drops or those can be used as shortcut, then those will hurt majority of the playerbase. Then the game has changed to cater hardcore PvP players. I am not saying this was your intend, but in no time someone will suggest this.  ;)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    @Ferryman
    I would not say "better" resources as in higher tiers, but just better yielding resources. 
    As harvesting in those zones would have the added risk of being killed and dropping said resources. 
    Basically a risk vs reward thing,

    "should I go to the lawless zone? I might get more resources but I might return empty handed" 

    or 

    "Should I go the the safer zone where I will have a consistent yield" 

    Personally I don't even think the bonus loot drops would hurt PVE players, as the risk of being attacked will be always present. 

  • Zartas said:
    @Ferryman
    I would not say "better" resources as in higher tiers, but just better yielding resources. 
    As harvesting in those zones would have the added risk of being killed and dropping said resources. 
    Basically a risk vs reward thing,

    "should I go to the lawless zone? I might get more resources but I might return empty handed" 

    or 

    "Should I go the the safer zone where I will have a consistent yield" 

    Personally I don't even think the bonus loot drops would not hurt PVE players, as the risk of being attacked will be always present. 
    I still think most players will choose the riskless path. Even if you double the drops in the lawless areas. Why? because it basically saves time (in the long run) and gankers will flock to the lawless areas. And you are paying a subscription :)

  • "Players self policing". Ha good one you made me cry  :D:D

    It's called sand box.
  • I still don't understand how so many people are complaining about a system they have not even seen in the game yet. We can speculate all we want but we will not know how the PvP works properly until we play it ourselves everything until that point everything we say here is just our wishes and opinions and they have no standing on the game as a whole.
  • Zartas said:
    first of all I wasn't suggesting battlegrounds, nor was I suggesting the removal of the corruption system. I was proposing of having a compromise by adding lawless zones to the mix. As structured events such as the caravans castles sieges, etc are completely different from open world pvp. 

    as I said already two times, lawless zones would not hurt pve players nor the corruption system, while providing more hardcore orientated players the option for full on open world pvp.  

    I'll admit I might have gone overboard myself in the last two posts, my bad should have stayed on topic. At least I am not so stubborn to admit it. 


    Lawless zones are the same thing as battlegrounds to me: A zone in the open world with free-for-all PvP combat.

    I am neutral on that, except I highly doubt that Steven will implement anything like that until after he assesses the current game design during Alpha and Beta.
  • Gothix said:

    "Players self policing". Ha good one you made me cry  :D:D

    It's called sand box.
    That's not what a sandbox is.
    And Ashes is a themebox.
  • lexmax said:
    Steven did a Podcast interview today and discussed this very subject.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/252860173?t=49m23s

    - rock paper scissor system in 1 vs 1 = RIP 1 vs 1 arena
    - "a process" is required to change secondary class (that could possibly help you out vs certain other classes) BUT you can't do this on the spot when arena match starts, and you don't know the future, so you don't know what opponent you will face until match actually starts, so once 1vs1 arena match starts seeing who you have against you, you already know did you win or lose = RIP 1 vs 1 arena

    - this also means RIP 1vs1 anywhere (for the same reason)

  • Ferryman said:
    Zartas said:

    as I said already two times, lawless zones would not hurt pve players nor the corruption system, while providing more hardcore orientated players the option for full on open world pvp.

    It depends. These lawless zones will not hurt PvE players as long you cant get any benefits from lawless areas. If those zones have better resources, mobs with better loot drops or those can be used as shortcut, then those will hurt majority of the playerbase. Then the game has changed to cater hardcore PvP players. I am not saying this was your intend, but in no time someone will suggest this.  ;)
    The typical complaints I hear about zones like this is that casual PvPers and non-PvPers typically love to explore.

    My Bartle score is:
    Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
    The first thing I do in a game is uncover as much of the fog of war/mini-map as possible before getting insta-killed by a mob.

    Explorers are going to want to explore the lawless zone and will not agree that exploring the lawless zone equals consent for PvP combat. So, there will be unrest in the community that I think Steven hopes to avoid.

    Also, to be fair, there would have to be a lawful zone where PvP combat is impossible.
    Which would segregate the population in a manner I think Steven wants to avoid.
  • Inb4 "green trolls" start giving "smirk remarks" to PvPers in zone chats, and everywhere. Remarks that are still not completely over the line, so they can't be banned or muted, but still poking PvPers all the time, also running around them in open world, trolling them, while PvPers will not even be able to attack them without getting corruption stacked on them.

    And if they do attack, they eventually get corrupted and then those players laugh at them even more seeing PvPer gameplay is rekt now, or even worse, if gear is lost.


    Nice system, where greens are protected, but PvPers are allower to be trolled across the board.

    This just confirmed this game will not really be for me, or for other PvPers really. It will really be for PvEers, that sometimes on occasion want to join in to optional PvP.


    I wish you fun all of you, but I am out of AoC. It's not for me.

    Peace.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    I wish you fun all of you, but I am out of AoC. It's not for me.

    Peace.

    See you in game :)

    If the amount of people that stopped playing WoW over the years equaled those who wrote about doing it on the forums, it would be a dead game.


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