Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
On the perceived "value" of community members. Is it monetary only?
ArchivedUser
Guest
Edit 10/7: Since posting this thread, I have had an opportunity to witness Intrepid Studios show they very much DO care about this crop of testers, and the week prior was not at all representative. Alex spent an HOUR helping one user alone with a PC issue and was engaged all night, as was Steven.
Further, the improvement in this build from the last was quite extraordinary. So much was patched in and fixed that to think they weren't reading our feedback is simply impossible.
I wish I had seen that before I made this thread, it wouldn't even exist. My conclusions were totally erroneous in every respect and the thread's premise is mostly invalidated.
______
I expect many will be vehemently opposed to me even making this thread. However I feel it's important to share my perspective, and others are as usual free to totally disagree if they choose to do so. Many will and that is fine. That's the beauty of community. We don't all see things the same way.
As to the topic, it is something many on discord have no doubt noticed is bothering me, and has been honestly since I first saw the kickstarter. Initially I tabled such concerns, as it was simply "how it is" and I backed anyway.I will say now just to be clear that I still do not regret doing so.
However as A1 stress hit, which wasn't even a thing when I backed and Kickstarter backers got first dibs, I was left thinking. Why? Earlier access was never a perk for that. What makes a KS backer receive preferred treatment beyond what was originally offered to them when they backed over Intrepid backers?
It wasn't long before I got a possible answer. In voice, while the channels were still deeply restricted, I was informed second-hand that PI and LOM were referred to as "our most supportive backers" by Intrepid. So, by extension, this means everyone else is viewed as "less supportive." Then I further asked, by what standard?
The only possible standard is a monetary one. BUT, you may ask, am I just reading too much into it? I figured one single second hand report was too much to base any sort of conclusion on. But last night, I finally sought data. I found it in the search function on discord.
All 4 "yellow" devs were extremely active during the time only KS backers were in the test, both in voice, in game, and in the text channels themselves. They had a big old party no doubt. Was a lot of fun, even through the alpha issues the had to deal with.
Since I received access to those channels, only Steven has posted. To my knowledge NO dev interaction in voice, and if they are in game at all I have never seen one. Contrast to reports from the first two weeks of them being super engaged? This is a different testing experience entirely.
I may be wrong on all of this. I want to be absolutely wrong. The idea that Intrepid backers are less valued members of the testing community is something I find extremely disconcerting. Yet, I have nothing whatsoever to suggest it isn't exactly the case.
Further, the improvement in this build from the last was quite extraordinary. So much was patched in and fixed that to think they weren't reading our feedback is simply impossible.
I wish I had seen that before I made this thread, it wouldn't even exist. My conclusions were totally erroneous in every respect and the thread's premise is mostly invalidated.
______
I expect many will be vehemently opposed to me even making this thread. However I feel it's important to share my perspective, and others are as usual free to totally disagree if they choose to do so. Many will and that is fine. That's the beauty of community. We don't all see things the same way.
As to the topic, it is something many on discord have no doubt noticed is bothering me, and has been honestly since I first saw the kickstarter. Initially I tabled such concerns, as it was simply "how it is" and I backed anyway.I will say now just to be clear that I still do not regret doing so.
However as A1 stress hit, which wasn't even a thing when I backed and Kickstarter backers got first dibs, I was left thinking. Why? Earlier access was never a perk for that. What makes a KS backer receive preferred treatment beyond what was originally offered to them when they backed over Intrepid backers?
It wasn't long before I got a possible answer. In voice, while the channels were still deeply restricted, I was informed second-hand that PI and LOM were referred to as "our most supportive backers" by Intrepid. So, by extension, this means everyone else is viewed as "less supportive." Then I further asked, by what standard?
The only possible standard is a monetary one. BUT, you may ask, am I just reading too much into it? I figured one single second hand report was too much to base any sort of conclusion on. But last night, I finally sought data. I found it in the search function on discord.
All 4 "yellow" devs were extremely active during the time only KS backers were in the test, both in voice, in game, and in the text channels themselves. They had a big old party no doubt. Was a lot of fun, even through the alpha issues the had to deal with.
Since I received access to those channels, only Steven has posted. To my knowledge NO dev interaction in voice, and if they are in game at all I have never seen one. Contrast to reports from the first two weeks of them being super engaged? This is a different testing experience entirely.
I may be wrong on all of this. I want to be absolutely wrong. The idea that Intrepid backers are less valued members of the testing community is something I find extremely disconcerting. Yet, I have nothing whatsoever to suggest it isn't exactly the case.
0
Comments
People who paid the most and joined KS quickest got first dibs on testing.
Small, limited pool of people. Easy criteria to pick the small pool.
And then the pool was increased, probably with similar criteria.
What other criteria do you feel would have been better?
I don't think it's that they value those members "more", it's just they wanted to closely monitor their first run of testing.
I'm a BoW backer, and have no problem with people, who've spent thousands more on the game than me, getting in to do stuff first. Kinda seems the more fair way to do that. Plus, in the end, the money all goes to a common goal, finishing Ashes of Creation. It's not like KS backers will be the only people who get to play the full version of the game while everyone else is gated.
Also
@Gigabear
Is it true you 1v3ed 3 members of Ember during the Alpha 1?
Judging "support" solely by monetary value isn't the only valid way to gauge it, especially when pe-order packs are capped out fairly low compared to KS packs.
No, but many of them were the only ones allowed to have a real chance into A0 to see the actual MMO. When I backed, the info I had told me I'd get that chance to see A0 progress via streams. The NDA was indefinitely extended without comment and I will probably be waiting another 8 months to see the actual game. I had no idea at that time A1 would be a BR and not an upgraded A0.
But later on I learned that KS backers DID get such consideration, and often. This goes back to this thread topic. If I were a KS backer, would they have said YES when asked? I don't know. It's a moot point now, as that test is over anyway. My interest in AoC was never to curry "favor" to get perks like A0 anyway. Which is good, because it seems I'm never going to be on an even footing in this process to KS backers no matter how much I love this game, and I just have to accept that fact.
That being said, I'm not bothered by missing A0. I never expected entry into that test. I do however wish I got to watch it as I expected to. A desire that has only gotten stronger after learning A1 is an addon pack and not the actual game. From all appearances I will be sitting here six months from now still not seeing the actual game.
It never did. Instead it was kept on for the entire duration of the test. This process has repeated itself so far during the A1 stress test, with continuing assurances of NDA lifts that never actually happen. We may not get it lifted until ACTUAL alpha 1, if even then.
Seeing the state of A1 stress myself, I am not concerned by these NDA delays. I was until I saw it for myself to verify it wasn't being kept under wraps because it was a terrible offering. I have no such assurance for the actual MMO, though what I have seen leaves me as confident as possible it was progressing well without being able to actually verify that for myself.
Seeing A0 would have been so very informative. Sure, it's very early and most stuff isn't in. But at least I'd have seen a piece of the world they are making and some nodes in real time. The stream we got back in December is many many months behind the current build and was never going to be able to show the whole experience.
However, were not going to see that stuff. That information is reserved for a narrow slice of the community heavily weighted towards monetary contribution. The rest of us simply aren't important enough to see the game as it's being made.
I felt a lot like getting an invite to the party and showing up to find the cake had been eaten and the guests of honor left before I even arrived. All that was left was picking up the mess.
My participation was solely for the benefit of the game itself. I got far more aggravation than enjoyment from the process, which is the opposite of what I expected hearing what was going on behind the scenes.
Sure, alpha testing is not supposed to be fun. But, for some of us, it was. Maybe next time I'll at least get to watch those "festivities."
I feel like Alpha is starting soon enough, I don't really care about not being among the very first to gain access to the game.
Close enough.
A0 was based on raffles during streams, random drawings and forum contribution on a rotation. It remained that way until A0 was over
Gigabear said:
THAT is what TESTING phases are for.. things are broken or built poorly and for most developers this is done in house, secretely through invites and nda or much later in the process offered as a open alpha/beta
As far as important parts of the testing go... It's all of it. Every time someone logs in, tests, or files a bug report it gets information to intrepid.
I have nothing against you or your post but I've never seen a testing community get so upset over small things before... It blows my mind that an incomplete, intermittent, buggy, limited game client creates so much discontent in people because they have to wait a couple weeks. The alpha 0 and the stress test (wording calls it alpha 1 phase 1 (it was unplanned and considered "bonus" testing) ) is not a complete service and nothing that was even promised to us.... yet there is a reason found to be unhappy.
/Rant over
Early MMORPG testing didn't have these kind of "dissatisfaction" issues until "players" started clamoring and begging to throw money at cash limited Indie Developers.
It became a common thing. Who is going to refuse "commonly acceptable" revenue streams?
That cat is out-of-the-bag, so concerns like the OP's are common place. No going back now...
Are you complaining now that people that found the game earlier had more realistic chances? Being "a lot more valuable" than the 1000s of people afterwards that just lurked?
Oh well suit yourself. People can complain about everything, next you will complain about the fact that steven sits in the voicechat randomly to talk with whoever is present and you just didn't notice.
I just want to start fishing..
It is fortunate I wasn't doing that for any sort of reward and I just genuinely enjoy helping share info about the game. Yet now I ask myself, should I bother recommending people to back for the tests when Intrepid has already picked the favorites they'll listen to and the rest of us are basically irrelevant load padding?
I don't see a point in promoting such a situation. For myself, being a fifth-wheel is never my preference. I am left to consider whether there is even any benefit in my continuing to test this BR at all without being a KS backer. The devs have already moved on to caring about sieges and perhaps I should to.
As far as recommending people to buy just for the testing phases is probably a bad idea. As the only further testing stages said to be persistent is Alpha 2. If they want to buy because of game time or skins I would encourage that and just consider any additional testing phases as secondary unless they really just want to help find bugs or test systems.
The "most supportive" thing is being a bit picky with the terminology. It also makes sense that the Yellow Devs would be more active during the time with the initial backers. This isn't necessarily because they paid more, but rather that it was a pre-arranged, organized time for doing preliminary testing. They wanted to get as much information as possible, as quickly as possible before expanding the program.
Hopefully that activity persisted to some extent, but if not, keep in mind that high-tiered backers are still playing the Alpha-1 Stress Test as well. Lack of presence is less likely to be a favoritism thing with that in consideration. Most likely, the Devs are actually having to focus more on development itself than testing now.
About the NDAs - from my recollection, you are correct in saying that the NDA of Alpha 0 was at one point intended to be removed. But, it was by no means something that was announced absolutely. The decision to remove the NDA reversed, and pushed back to Alpha 1. Given that the Alpha 1 Stress Test was never considered a part of Alpha 1 back in the Kickstarter, they aren't contradicting themselves by having an NDA for the Stress Test when the Kickstarter specifically stated that Alpha 1 would not have an NDA. I suppose it's a bit of a loop hole, but considering that they are still within the initial estimated time-frame for Alpha 1 to fully release, it's hard to blame them for it. Especially since the Stress Test is so useful, despite it potentially being really messy. It makes sense that they don't want to represent their game with footage that could end up being really rough.
tl;dr: we good fam.
- Sikuba
We aren't there yet, and I hope to never see it. I love Intrepid as a company precisely because they are different, and I want them to stay different.
To illustrate my point, Proxy mentioned that Steven "usually asks my opinion on such matters" in reference to My.Com, while noting this time Steven had NOT.
No community member would be queried on such a matters over the rest of the community, no matter who it is. Unless, of course, you consider that individuals's feedback "more valuable" than the others. I find even the expectation of such special treatment very disturbing.
They are actually testing PARTS or segments of the game as development goes forward. Ashes is not a cheap P2W or F2P game that offers itself up to everyone while it is in early development and never fully becomes finished before taking all your money which ever way they can and then goes retail and performs poorly.
There was a time that participating in Alpha testing was limited and NDA's weren't lifted until the Beta period when anyone could try the game. As much as I have been in closed Alpha testing in years past and would have loved to be part of Ashes Alpha, I am not. But I am happy that they are moving forward as they are and that they want people concerned with ACTUAL testing and not petty stuff as to who gets what and when.
Actual testing is indeed my goal here. I felt I had something to offer, and haven't gotten the chance to really help WHEN IT MATTERED. I still did it, and reported what I could, but it was pretty clear the focus had shifted to other things before my batch was added. Perhaps I helped. I don't know. Honestly, I don't even know if they're reading it any more.
Whatever you call it, though, they can only have so many testers. They had to cut it off somehow. They decided to restrict it to early supporters who paid a lot of money. That’s a sensible and objective way to select people. Choosing based on “merit” is subjective and much less fair. What IS is doing is probably the best way to do it.