On the perceived "value" of community members. Is it monetary only?

ArchivedUser

I feel like I would be best served by just holding a bit longer till the sieges, and hope and pray all 10k get in on day one. BR can die in a fire. And what I missed, I missed. The future at least is looking up.

ArchivedUser

well ive thought about this and see the concern. It may be legit. But is it possible that these guys work like 60 hours a week and wanted to take a couple weekends off to recharge and spend time with family. they might just be exhausted. Maybe, maybe not. They are normal people after all. 

ArchivedUser

Gigabear, Didnt you refuse to stress test until the NDA was lifted?  Unless im incorrect in seeing multiple discord posts from you exclaiming so...Then whats the issue, even if you had been picked, you refused to play until the NDA was lifted anyways, meaning you wouldnt have even tested...

I believe you relented on one of the final days and tested with us, but like...<.<

ArchivedUser

Spartanz said:

Gigabear, Didnt you refuse to stress test until the NDA was lifted?  Unless im incorrect in seeing multiple discord posts from you exclaiming so...Then whats the issue, even if you had been picked, you refused to play until the NDA was lifted anyways, meaning you wouldnt have even tested...

I believe you relented on one of the final days and tested with us, but like...<.<

It was over a week before I expected to be invited at the earliest when I consulted opinions on the matter and realized I was being foolish. Since seeing the alpha instead of relying on testimonials about it, my opinion has almost completely flipped on the NDA.

The fact is I was going to be called out no matter which way I went after saying I would sit it out. I could only form my opinions based on the information I had at the time though. That information was mainly an alpha 1 environment vid and testimonials from testers who got in before me. Neither of which proved a fair representation of the actual state of Alpha IMO.

Lifting it was never feasible, and if Intrepid does so I have grave concerns as to the reception they will receive. Much better to wait until sieges that have the world's first unfiltered view of Ashes be a BR on a very unfinished map. Again, just my opinion.

ArchivedUser

I agree, after actually seeing it, I understood why the NDA was necessary and I now want the NDA to stay.

ArchivedUser

Seems to me that whoever is not included in the first batch is likely to feel the process is not fair.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Seems to me that whoever is not included in the first batch is likely to feel the process is not fair.

There was a brief window where I announced my invite to discord, and somehow I had gotten it before many KS backers. I AGREED with THEM that it was unfair I had gotten in first based on the process as outlined.Including one person who DMed me and was NOT PLEASED with Intrepid, before soon receiving their own invite and having it all cleared up.

The problem isn't when people got in. It's not even what the thread is about. What it's about is me having the distinct impression only the first two weeks were actually  important when I feel the whole process should be. It's killing my desire to bother testing if I don't think they are even worried about it anymore.

ArchivedUser

Hey, a lurker here. I wanted to share few opinions on the topic.

As someone who missed the opportunity to kickstart the game and now is waiting for the stress test for all registered users before deciding if to support the game this early or rather at the later point in development when more concrete product can be seen (and due to being not wealthy enough),
I think it is fairly reasonable for devs to give special benefits to higher-tier backers. If we look at the community as investors it is only natural that people who "own more of a company" should be the most important members of the community.

Nontheless from the conversation I read here I am not sure if the lower-tier backers are not just simply overlooked or lacking a means to have their voice heard.
In the end these low-tier backers will be majority of the community and as a whole their value vastly exceeds the one of the higher-tier backers.


I would like to add that the rumored stress test for all registred users on this website is definetly a huge possitive for the low-tier community and potentionaly a great marketing move.


I hope I made my points clear.

ArchivedUser

Yes because they obviously do not have any other responsibilities and should stay all online 24/7 for you.
They did not claim to be ever present in any alpha, that they did is a nice gimmik but should have never been a reason for you to participate.

You are just feeling entitled to complain because you can and at the same time less entitled because of some made up reason that only gives to show why most developers don't open their doors until a way later date.
People creating problems where there never were any.

ArchivedUser

Grisu said:

Yes because they obviously do not have any other responsibilities and should stay all online 24/7 for you.
They did not claim to be ever present in any alpha, that they did is a nice gimmik but should have never been a reason for you to participate.

You are just feeling entitled to complain because you can and at the same time less entitled because of some made up reason that only gives to show why most developers don't open their doors until a way later date.
People creating problems where there never were any.

At this point the word "entitled" is fast becoming a marker for one who is not arguing in good faith. I'm not entitled to anything, nor does this thread seek to claim the devs were obligated to engage us at all. 

Rather it is simply drawing what I am beginning to see is the obvious conclusion. The thread's premise that monetary value is the only standard of commitment to the project Intrepid is concerned with seems to be quite well-founded at this point.

But it is hardly the only standard that should matter. Maybe it's my fault for taking all of their assurances of "community-driven" development and involving us in the process so literally. But, I'm an idealist and perhaps I'm simply too naive even still when it comes to game dev. At least I know where I stand now.

ArchivedUser

There’s something to be said for idealism in running a game.  You want to present your artistic vision, tell a story, create an experience, foster a community, etc.  And Steven as the founder seems very idealistic and personable, putting a lot of himself into the project (in terms of money and reputation) and prioritizes making this a great game that will have longevity than a quick FtP, P2W cash grab.

But it’s still a business.  Your money matters.  Without it there is no game.  There will be decisions made with an eye to profitability and financial efficiency (as there must be if the game is going to succeed).  So on some level, you are going to be a line on a financial spreadsheet and in some aspects that’s what your worth is.  We’re customers after all.

ArchivedUser

Atama said:

But it’s still a business.  Your money matters.  Without it there is no game.  There will be decisions made with an eye to profitability and financial efficiency (as there must be if the game is going to succeed).  So on some level, you are going to be a line on a financial spreadsheet and in some aspects that’s what your worth is.  We’re customers after all.

This is pretty much what I've come to see as being the case. Because I was never afforded the chance to back in KS due to missing it, I will have to accept a lower "perceived" value.

I can likely erase that erroneous value judgement quite easily given enough time. And hopefully my doing so will  see Intrepid recognize there are more important things than money when it comes to community.

ArchivedUser

Wow Gigabear I am just not sure where I begin here. The amount of hours that go into an Indie studio working with a limited number of resources, each of which is working above and beyond overtime, each of which pours their hearts and souls into this project. These developers have friends, they have families, all of which miss out on time spent while these developers put in 6 and 7 day work weeks on top of working outside of business hours. To see you post this is very selfish.

Let us paint a more realistic picture here, shall we:

• Dev A worked a 60 hour work week leading up to what they are most excited to be a first look for so many at the dream they have created. It is an all hands on deck work weekend for everyone on the project. Dev A knows that there will be challenges, service disruptions and any number of variables which may come up so they jump in discord, as do their peers, they rope in community moderators to help parse over details. Everyone is working past sun down into the early hours of the morning. Passionately churning away on a dream of a project. Their friends and families are worrying because they work so many hours, haven't been around and haven't called. Still Dev A gives it their all as do all on the team. The weekend is a massive success! So many wins, so much data that's been collected to help full the next rounds of development. Its Sunday at 3 AM. The work week begins anew Monday at 8 AM so little sleep and rest has been obtained but the team is crunching hard to lead into the next weeks even bigger launch .... you see the cycle.

To the point of the developers interacting in channel, again there is only so many staff members, many who are watching, listening and actively monitoring the bugs, the issues and the feedback that's being given. Working quietly behind the scenes to help make testers like you have that amazing first look experience with Ashes.

Many here have discussed the logic behind recruiting the KS / SS early backers 1st and it is indeed a sound logic to turn to those who are so passionate that they choose to back. This does not mean that those without a backer package have less passion it is just 1 means of setting a metric to identify testers. With Alpha 0 that was via key giveaways, many loved this, many hated it. So for Alpha stress the backers were selected. Again many love this, some might hate it. At any side of any argument there is many opinions but in looking at historic measure, no studio and game of this size has brought such unprecedented early access to the people. The NDA is even lifting on a model that is meant to showcase just a few elements of the combat, a look at environments and modeling. There is so much yet to come, look at discord some have even asked if Ashes had converted from an MMORPG to a BR game, because they had not fully followed the project perhaps or had not caught the latest news. This type of miss-perception can and does happen when games showcase videos even...let alone public access to early content.

I am sorry to go on but this post really hits a nerve. I know first hand how many hours I pour into this community and my other work and that is in addition to my IRL job. Rant over.

ArchivedUser

Belle-bot.exe ♡ said:
 To see you post this is very selfish.

So I'm selfish for wanting to be a part of this process like I was told I would be and am pointedly NOT? It was not so long ago you were so very pleased with me. I had such wonderful dreams about how I'd work so hard on testing Ashes for Intrepid.

The amount of positive things I have had to say about the studio is incalculable. But I have now stepped out of line, it seems, and become "the enemy."

Your post only serves to validate my premise. I don't matter. I didn't pay enough.

ArchivedUser

Gigabear said:

Your post only serves to validate my premise. I don't matter. I didn't pay enough.

No, you just show how entitled you feel to have the undivided attention of the devs on you because you paid for a perk that is unrelated to it. (literally making up something you are not entitled to in any way)
The very fact you didn't even make room for the possibility of the devs simply being busy and joining again later, while also not awknowledging the fact that noone ever said they will be joining ANYONE in the alpha cements your standpoint of being an entitled little brat.

ArchivedUser

No one here can make you feel better about not being included in the first two weeks.

I don't agree with you that only the first two weeks were important.
But if that's how you feel, that's how you feel.
And that's about the best response you're likely to get.

ArchivedUser

I cannot endorse a project that runs on a Pay to Influence model. It was bad enough to begin with, but now it;s gone too far.

ArchivedUser

Gigabear said:

I cannot endorse a project that runs on a Pay to Influence model. It was bad enough to begin with, but now it;s gone too far.

ArchivedUser

Sintu said:

Gigabear said:

I cannot endorse a project that runs on a Pay to Influence model. It was bad enough to begin with, but now it;s gone too far.

I hope you have better than this when explaining to the skeptical MMO community why they should back this game. 

ArchivedUser

Gigabear said:

Sintu said:

Gigabear said:

I cannot endorse a project that runs on a Pay to Influence model. It was bad enough to begin with, but now it;s gone too far.

I hope you have better than this when explaining to the skeptical MMO community why they should back this game. 

I am fine discussing with skeptical people of the game. I just have no interest writing much against temper tantrums who didn’t get their own way. So I felt the picture said it all. 

ArchivedUser

Sintu said:
I am fine discussing with skeptical people of the game. I just have no interest writing much against temper tantrums who didn’t get their own way. So I felt the picture said it all. 

So I take my story to the perspective backers. I explain to THEM how even $500 and another $500 in cosmetics wasn't enough to be considered supportive. Wasn't enough to get heard. Was still excluded from everything relevant. Still to this day have not seen a single unfiltered screenshot of the actual game. Think you they will take it on faith. NO, not a chance.

What do you suppose will be the response of the MMO community when they learn, as I have, they are irrelevant to this process? That they are backing a game to test, only for their testing to be superseded by the "most supportive backers?"

At least they will care what I have to say, unlike Intrepid Studios. I didn't pay enough.

ArchivedUser

"I have money I am entitled to the best threatment even tho I have no right to it since it was never included in what I have bought"

Buy a sheep complain you didn't get a tuna.

ArchivedUser

I don't understand why the developers, not being as interactive outside the first 2 weeks means the remaining 6.5 months of that testing phase are irrelevant.

Would it be nice if they interacted with us more often? well, yeah. But them not doing it doesn't mean your input doesn't matter. the first waves had just a more manageable amount of people. we're simply too many to reply personally to everything everyone posts. Have you ever tried to talk to a crowd? It's near impossible to even make out what they are saying. much less sustain a conversation.

I believe they read most of it. If on top of that they sat down to chat every time someone reports something nothing would get done.

ArchivedUser

Gigabear said:

I cannot endorse a project that runs on a Pay to Influence model. It was bad enough to begin with, but now it;s gone too far.

So... don't endorse it.
Don't endorse what you don't like.

You feel that you are irrelevant.
You're pretty much the only one who feels you are irrelevant.
We can't change how you feel.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Gigabear said:

I cannot endorse a project that runs on a Pay to Influence model. It was bad enough to begin with, but now it;s gone too far.

So... don't endorse it.
Don't endorse what you don't like.

You feel that you are irrelevant.
You're pretty much the only one who feels you are irrelevant.
We can't change how you feel.

Oh dear. No, I don't feel I'm irrelevant. I feel Intrepid feels I am irrelevant. Much as the difference in "perceived" versus ACTUAL value. They are not the same. I know my value, which is why it is so frustrating at being held back form making full use of my potential in this process.

ArchivedUser

Gigabear said:

Dygz said:

Gigabear said:

I cannot endorse a project that runs on a Pay to Influence model. It was bad enough to begin with, but now it;s gone too far.

So... don't endorse it.
Don't endorse what you don't like.

You feel that you are irrelevant.
You're pretty much the only one who feels you are irrelevant.
We can't change how you feel.

Oh dear. No, I don't feel I'm irrelevant. I feel Intrepid feels I am irrelevant. Much as the difference in "perceived" versus ACTUAL value. They are not the same. I know my value, which is why it is so frustrating at being held back form making full use of my potential in this process.

I think you’re about as relevant as me.

Just one person out of thousands of fans.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Gigabear said:

I cannot endorse a project that runs on a Pay to Influence model. It was bad enough to begin with, but now it;s gone too far.

So... don't endorse it.
Don't endorse what you don't like.

You feel that you are irrelevant.
You're pretty much the only one who feels you are irrelevant.
We can't change how you feel.

Well..Dont assume in 2018...I feel that he's irrelevant...Kappa

Giving KS BoW's the Alpha Stress test is 100% A-OK in my book.  Why deal with a random pool, I'd say more than half the registered users arent even active...The other half have zero investment in keeping the NDA, and may very well leak vids/pics...People who invested 500$ on KS are almost assured to be committed to playing the game on release, AND actually testing things instead of being some of the bigger guilds who were ONLY interested in forming teams of 10 and getting 200+ *Cough* Bullshit...wins.  I see zero reason why just giving BoW+ the bonus test is a bad thing...

ArchivedUser

@Gigabear
Same difference.
Everyone here already understands that you feel entitled.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

@Gigabear
Same difference.
Everyone here already understands that you feel entitled.

To be entitled, I would be asking for special treatment. I am acting the opposite of entitled and asking for EQUAL treatment. I am an Alpha 1 backer. I seek the same engagement and consideration other alpha 1 backers have already received. No more. No less. That is what is fair and proper.

Down with Pay to Influence. It's as bad as P2W

ArchivedUser

Belle-bot.exe ♡ said:

Wow Gigabear I am just not sure where I begin here. The amount of hours that go into an Indie studio working with a limited number of resources, each of which is working above and beyond overtime, each of which pours their hearts and souls into this project. These developers have friends, they have families, all of which miss out on time spent while these developers put in 6 and 7 day work weeks on top of working outside of business hours. To see you post this is very selfish.

Let us paint a more realistic picture here, shall we:

• Dev A worked a 60 hour work week leading up to what they are most excited to be a first look for so many at the dream they have created. It is an all hands on deck work weekend for everyone on the project. Dev A knows that there will be challenges, service disruptions and any number of variables which may come up so they jump in discord, as do their peers, they rope in community moderators to help parse over details. Everyone is working past sun down into the early hours of the morning. Passionately churning away on a dream of a project. Their friends and families are worrying because they work so many hours, haven't been around and haven't called. Still Dev A gives it their all as do all on the team. The weekend is a massive success! So many wins, so much data that's been collected to help full the next rounds of development. Its Sunday at 3 AM. The work week begins anew Monday at 8 AM so little sleep and rest has been obtained but the team is crunching hard to lead into the next weeks even bigger launch .... you see the cycle.

To the point of the developers interacting in channel, again there is only so many staff members, many who are watching, listening and actively monitoring the bugs, the issues and the feedback that's being given. Working quietly behind the scenes to help make testers like you have that amazing first look experience with Ashes.

Many here have discussed the logic behind recruiting the KS / SS early backers 1st and it is indeed a sound logic to turn to those who are so passionate that they choose to back. This does not mean that those without a backer package have less passion it is just 1 means of setting a metric to identify testers. With Alpha 0 that was via key giveaways, many loved this, many hated it. So for Alpha stress the backers were selected. Again many love this, some might hate it. At any side of any argument there is many opinions but in looking at historic measure, no studio and game of this size has brought such unprecedented early access to the people. The NDA is even lifting on a model that is meant to showcase just a few elements of the combat, a look at environments and modeling. There is so much yet to come, look at discord some have even asked if Ashes had converted from an MMORPG to a BR game, because they had not fully followed the project perhaps or had not caught the latest news. This type of miss-perception can and does happen when games showcase videos even...let alone public access to early content.

I am sorry to go on but this post really hits a nerve. I know first hand how many hours I pour into this community and my other work and that is in addition to my IRL job. Rant over.

YOU are amazing.. keep it up and I'm glad you were able to post. I'm sorry some people will never be happy and find anything they can to complain about. I appreciate the passion you show and hope it doesn't change.

Gigabear said:

Belle-bot.exe ♡ said:
 To see you post this is very selfish.

So I'm selfish for wanting to be a part of this process like I was told I would be and am pointedly NOT? It was not so long ago you were so very pleased with me. I had such wonderful dreams about how I'd work so hard on testing Ashes for Intrepid.

The amount of positive things I have had to say about the studio is incalculable. But I have now stepped out of line, it seems, and become "the enemy."

Your post only serves to validate my premise. I don't matter. I didn't pay enough.

Don't be a tool and snap part of a sentence to serve your perceived intention. This thread could have been "meaningful" but you've dragged it down to a thread of you complaining regardless of input of others. Grow up a little bit and realize the amount of people and time that is being invested into this project isn't going to cater to individuals and for you not to have realized that is baffling. We have access to some content... test it and enjoy it instead of complaining that you (a number in a large pool of people) had to wait a week to see gameplay.

Gigabear said:

Dygz said:

@Gigabear
Same difference.
Everyone here already understands that you feel entitled.

To be entitled, I would be asking for special treatment. I am acting the opposite of entitled and asking for EQUAL treatment. I am an Alpha 1 backer. I seek the same engagement and consideration other alpha 1 backers have already received. No more. No less. That is what is fair and proper.

Down with Pay to Influence. It's as bad as P2W

You are getting exactly what you bought you have access to alpha 1. No other commitment is owed you outside of the wording in your purchased package.