Even if you have 10 skills in your rotation, after doing your opener hundreds of times and your rotation thousands of times you stop thinking about it anyway.
See the above three posts.
If this is possible, the combat system is a failure.
My point is that just because you have fewer buttons to press doesn't mean your combat system lacks depth. I'd rather have a skill that can be used 5 different ways than 5 separate skills that can only be used 1 way. If a class is complete I see no need in adding more abilities just for the sake of it.
Getting stuck up on "oh I want at least 15 buttons to press" doesn't help anyone and will just cause problems further down the line.
I play as a DPS mage as my main in every MMO I play - though I also do a fair amount of group and solo content.
As a mage on a raid, I want the following abilities as the absolute basics.
At least four long range single target damage abilities that vary in damage amount with appropriately scaled cast and recast timer.
At least 2 long range AoE damage abilities.
At least 1 massive damage ability that requires specific positioning to use to maximum effect.
At least one proactive threat management ability.
At least one reactive threat management ability on a very long recast.
At least one mana management ability.
With the minimum of the above, we are at 10 spells. I would consider that a barely functioning raid DPS mage - it is the skeleton of what could be a good and enjoyable class, but in itself it has almost no flavor or interest as yet.
The thing with the above is that you can't combine any of those abilities together without taking away from the class.
The damage abilities should speak for themselves. There are only 7 there - 4 single target and 2 AoE, along with one positional ability that is the only part of the class so far that allows for a better player to differentiate themselves. This is one area many games simply give"a" direct damage spell and "a" AoE spell and call it quits. This is why many games have boring combat. Add in a few of each type, each with differing cast, recast and damage values (and mana used, I consider that obvious but am including it for the benefit of others that may be reading). The reason for wanting spells with different recast timers (which in itself kind of requires differing cast timers and damage values in order to maintain some form of balance) will become apparent a few paragraphs from now.
Now, one could look at the two threat management abilities and ask if they could be combined with each other, or if they could be combined with other abilities. The thing is, in a tab target based MMO (which is the perspective I am looking at here), the correct use of threat management is a skill unto itself.
The best DPS mages know when to stop casting damage abilities and instead use that time to cast something to lower their threat - the players DPS appears to suffer because they stop casting damage abilities, but they gain a higher probability of not pulling aggro, being killed and thus having a much lower DPS. If a proactive DPS ability is simply combined in to (as an example) a direct damage ability, then that totally removes the skill involved in knowing when to take the DPS output hit in order to lower your threat in a proactive manner.
All of the above also applies to a mana management ability.
A reactive threat management ability is for those few times the mage does manage to pull aggro, and with quick enough reflexes (DPS mages don't get hit by raid mobs twice), you can prevent a death (or a wipe, depending on raid mechanics and timing).
Those three abilities need to be independent of each other, and independent of anything else, as a raid DPS mage should have the ability to make use of any of them at what ever point the mage feels they are needed - recast timer notwithstanding.
Now, the problem with the above, as I mentioned, is that it is lacking interest. One way to make the above class fun to play would be to add in a few PBAoE abilities, so that the player then has a position based rotation where they need to time running in to the mob (or mobs - as it may only be efficient if there are three or more that you can hit) and cast PBAoE spells, followed by the massive damage position dependent spell from the above list.
To make this even more interesting, there could be the option of having one or two of the smaller damage abilities able to be cast while running, so you are not completely wasting time running in to position yourself. This need not be a new ability.
Then to add the final bit of interest to the class, a short duration self buff that gives all spells cast for the next 10 seconds a [x%] chance to halve the recast timer, and a single target group only (specifically not raid only) buff that adds a damage proc to any melee attack the target successfully makes.
The first of these two buffs is what makes the class a little interesting. You can't have a rotation running optimally if there is a chance that your best spell could be back and ready to cast in half the normal amount of time. You may have to make decisions about whether it is worth casting that self buff in hopes of lowering the recast on a big single target direct damage ability, or hold on to it for a 30 more seconds until your massive damage position dependent ability is ready. You may find yourself in a situation where the best thing for you to do DPS wise is to run in and fire off your PBAoE's and positional attack even if not all of them are up.
Basically, that one single buff turns this class (or any class) from something where you can work out a rotation and just stick to it, to one where you have to be constantly assessing and reassessing your situation every few seconds to determine what is the best thing to be doing next.
The second buff (the one you cast on another player to add damage to melee attacks) is something that you can cast on a melee based character that will (if designed and balanced correctly) slightly alter the dynamics of that players class. It is a buff where smaller but faster attacks will gain more than bigger, slower attacks, and so the player you cast it on - if they know what they are doing - will want to alter how they play ever so slightly to best take advantage of that buff. This is the sort of ability that - to me - every class should have that they can cast on another player, so that there are always subtle changes to how your class behaves based on which of these buffs you have on you - which is obviously dependent on which classes you have with you in your group.
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So, with the above we have a functioning and interesting raid DPS mage class. There are 14 spells, all of which need to be independent of each other. If the function of any of those 14 spells in combined, then the class is diminished as a whole.
The thing with that 14 spells is that there is no "utility". It is just the basics of being a raiding mage and not falling asleep. I'd also like to add to that list a single "interesting" spell, something along the lines of "Tempered Fate" as you mentioned.
I absolutely DO want abilities like that in any game I play. They make the game interesting - not just combat. As a mage, I'd love to have a bubble spell that I can cast on any target (friendly, enemy of myself) that I can then control for 5 - 8 seconds in any direction, on any axis. To me, that gives the class so many possibilities of things they can do, situations they can get out of (or in to) that others can't necessarily do (though others have their own thing).
So now we have a 15 spell class, one that is interesting to play in a raid, and has some interest outside of combat and in unexpected circumstances.
This type of character is what I had in mind when I said 15 spells is the minimum I expect in order to make combat interesting - as again, you can't take any of those abilities away from this build, nor can you combine the function of any of these abilities, without diminishing the class over all.
Having four abilities is fine in a game where you are only every really fighting other players. In a game where there is an expectation of spending hours fighting PvE content though, it won't be enough.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2019
@noaani you are talking about individual abilities instead of looking at the class as a whole. When you are designing a class for an mmorpg you need to consider 2 core principles - damage/healing output and gameplay.
For damage output I mean things like:
Ranged or melee (or hybrid)
Single-target or aoe-focused
Consistent dps
Ramping up dps
Burst dps
Once you know what kind of damage output you want from your character you then have to think about the gameplay. Some common gameplay types you encounter are:
Once you have a general idea of how the class will operate THEN you can think about the individual abilities that make up the class.
Just for example, compare what the mage was like in Vanilla WoW compared to modern WoW. In Vanilla WoW the devs literally just did as you did, throwing a bunch of abilities together and calling it a class. The result is that gameplay pretty much revolved around 2-3 abilities with little thought to what you were doing.
By contrast the modern Wow mage has a variety of distinct playstyles. Frost mage is a combo style, Fire mage is proc-based and Arcane mage is a builder-spender. You'll notice that the modern WoW mage has access to fewer abilities than the Vanilla WoW mage but the gameplay (for raiding at least) is far more interesting.
So, see how the class plays first before demanding more buttons to press.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2019
Haha. noaani hates WoW.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As do I but you can't deny they know what they are doing when it comes to class design.
That said the principles I laid out in my previous post can be found in most mmorpgs.
Class design, sure.
Interesting combat? Nope.
The developers of WoW developed their combat system based on the entertainment coming from the encounter. It's like they seem to have forgotten that the vast majority of engagements in an MMO are with base population (trash mobs to you and I). This holds true in solo, group and raid play. By definition, these encounters are not interesting. This means the majority of encounters in WoW are boring and not fun, and the only time combat in WoW is fun is when you fight a specific boss with a mechanic you enjoy.
I'd rather the enjoyment come from the class than from the content, as I think anyone that has played such a game would. This doesn't prevent content from also being enjoyable as well, it just means that even trash mob killing is fun.
I should also point out that my above post, I didn't get in to anything build or subclass specific. Everything was generic in relation to any mage/x class that is intended to be cast based DPS. There are dozens of specific things that you could add to that via augments (there is no reason you couldn't build a proc based DPS class out of the shell outlined above, just using augments).
The entire concept lf the position based spells is just one example of how you could make a caster class more interesting than just someone that stands back and hurls fireballs at a target, and combined with the buff to reduce recast timers turns the class in to one where players with actual skill will be able to deal twice the damage output of someone that just comes in and tries to follow a rotation.
I'm quite sure you could see how lowering the ability count from the class as I detailed it above would detract from the class over all. If Ashes were limited to 12 or fewer hotbar slots (14 or fewer really), a class like this straight up could not happen.
I am not saying "this is what I want", merely "this is the kind of thing I want". In order to have this kind of thing, the game needs to support more than 15 hitbar slots from day 1.
Edit to add, with a class system as fluid as Ashes, you can't (or shouldn't) compare it to a game with a curated class system.
@noaani Interesting combat? What do you count as "interesting combat"?
Wildstar had "interesting combat", but never took off. Tera has "interesting combat".
They ALSO had rotations. If a game needs to have skills to be impossible to put into a rotation, then give us an example...
My perfect amount of skills would be a 5-6 button rotation during standard pve combat, with 5-8 situational skills, to fill in or replace other skills.
Edit: Remember please that there is a pvp scene, where they will have to LEARN ALL SKILLS FROM OTHER CLASSES (at least the base spells). That is pretty much impossible, if every class has more then 13 standard spells...
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@noaani Interesting combat? What do you count as "interesting combat"?
Wildstar had "interesting combat", but never took off. Tera has "interesting combat".
They ALSO had rotations. If a game needs to have skills to be impossible to put into a rotation, then give us an example...
My perfect amount of skills would be a 5-6 button rotation during standard pve combat, with 5-8 situational skills, to fill in or replace other skills.
Edit: Remember please that there is a pvp scene, where they will have to LEARN ALL SKILLS FROM OTHER CLASSES (at least the base spells). That is pretty much impossible, if every class has more then 13 standard spells...
I never considered Tera interesting. Didn't play Wildstar.
With a class system like Ashes, there is no reason you couldn't build a class based on a rotation if a player wanted it, but the option to build a class should be there for those that find such things more boring and tedious than minesweeper.
As for PvP, we already have good reason to believe classes will have more than 13 abilities to pick from, as the ranger has that many listed already. I would pick each base class has around 20, with each subclass offering 3 or 4 augments on each ability, meaning the game will have almost 4,000 different augmented abilities - before you look at augments from other avenues.
People aren't going to try and remember all of that.
There will be a bunch of abilities - the question is how many will we be able to access during combat.
I personally like this type of system having a lot of abilities to choose from.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2019
There will be a lot of abilities to choose from, regardless.
This discussion is really about how many abilities will be available on a hotbar and how many hotbars will be available during combat - that's what will be limiting access during combat to some degree.
Although, again... we should also be factoring in augments and how many abilities will be available on weapons and weapon swapping during combat.
There will be a lot of abilities to choose from, regardless.
This discussion is really about how many abilities will be available on a hotbar and how many hotbars will be available during combat - that's what will be limiting access during combat to some degree.
Although, again... we should also be factoring in augments and how many abilities will be available on weapons and weapon swapping during combat.
While I do generally agree, I don't distinguish between weapon abilities and class abilities for the purposes of this specific discussion - as both will most likely take up a hotbar slot.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The weapon abilities will chain from a combo - as a qte from weapon use - rather than take up multiple slots on the hotbar, so... it's most likely that only one hotbar slot will be for weapon ability - if even that.
If that is the case, they are a whole lot less interesting. Rather than adding a range of new options, they merely alter the parameters of existing options.
Would like to see some primary source info on this though.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yep. Interviews supposedly Mar 2020.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If that is the case, they are a whole lot less interesting. Rather than adding a range of new options, they merely alter the parameters of existing options.
Would like to see some primary source info on this though.
That all depends on how they handle it. If they are lazy and just have the combo skill deal extra damage, that would be boring because there would be no thought process or choice behind it (you would just use the weapon skill as often as possible). However, if the weapon skill QTE affected your gameplay in some meaningful way, that would be a lot more interesting. If, for example, the next ability you use after your weapon skill QTE has a reduced cooldown, that affects your gameplay because you get to choose which of your abilities will get the reduced cooldown.
GW2 has some mechanics like this. The first skill of every weapon is the auto attack, usually a set of 2-3 comboed attacks that activate automatically. That in itself is quite boring until they are combined with other abilities. My Mesmer has a state called mirage cloak which can be activated by either dodging or using certain abilities. When I'm in mirage cloak it changes my auto attack into a charge that interrupts the target. This immediately opens up a lot more gameplay options for me as I get to choose when I activate the mirage cloak depending on the circumstances.
As a side note one thing that needs to be considered is that the combat system needs to be simple enough for new players to pick up without too much difficulty and still be somewhat effective, whilst having enough depth that more experienced players don't get bored by it. There is a fine line to be had here and something that a lot of games fail at managing it.
GW2 has some mechanics like this. The first skill of every weapon is the auto attack, usually a set of 2-3 comboed attacks that activate automatically. That in itself is quite boring until they are combined with other abilities. My Mesmer has a state called mirage cloak which can be activated by either dodging or using certain abilities. When I'm in mirage cloak it changes my auto attack into a charge that interrupts the target. This immediately opens up a lot more gameplay options for me as I get to choose when I activate the mirage cloak depending on the circumstances.
In my opinion, if you have an auto attack ability, a mirage cloak and a charge that interrupts all as three separate and individual abilities, you have the same basic class as this, with less opportunities to confuse a new player, and more options for an experienced player.
The reason I stopped playing GW2 is because the whole thing felt to me like they made the UI and control scheme first, and then tried to fit in classes and mechanics around that.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
GW2 has some mechanics like this. The first skill of every weapon is the auto attack, usually a set of 2-3 comboed attacks that activate automatically. That in itself is quite boring until they are combined with other abilities. My Mesmer has a state called mirage cloak which can be activated by either dodging or using certain abilities. When I'm in mirage cloak it changes my auto attack into a charge that interrupts the target. This immediately opens up a lot more gameplay options for me as I get to choose when I activate the mirage cloak depending on the circumstances.
In my opinion, if you have an auto attack ability, a mirage cloak and a charge that interrupts all as three separate and individual abilities, you have the same basic class as this, with less opportunities to confuse a new player, and more options for an experienced player.
The reason I stopped playing GW2 is because the whole thing felt to me like they made the UI and control scheme first, and then tried to fit in classes and mechanics around that.
I disagree. By combining with mirage cloak with both the charge attack and the dodge you force players to choose how to use it. Do you use mirage cloak to avoid taking damage or use it with the charge skill to interrupt a crucial ability, or as a gap closer/escape tool?
Sometimes adding a little restriction to someone forces them to be more creative in their work. Making each function a separate button may seem like the same basic kit but it takes away the need to choose, which in turn reduces the depth that more experienced players can utilise.
There are interesting systems like BDO. Where almost any skills can be activated without it needing to be on a hot bar. This of course has some pros and cons to this system. The varied and interesting rotations a player can preform.The need to thoroughly know each skill key stroke combination in order to maximize DPS. The need to constantly test varying skills combos with each update. The large learning curve it comes to pvp (in regards to knowing other classes possible rotations and weakness). And so much more.
This system has caused the developers to have to revamp their pvp system multiple times. Due to skill's power creep, CC mechanics being outdated or overpowered, skill counter mechanics not being viable, and more.
Still with all that being said it's probably my favorite system currently when it comes to skills and skills on hotbars.
A close second would be Age of Wushu skill system. Where almost all skills could fall under 4 main categories (parry, attack, block, movement). This created an action roshamo style combat. The amount of skills each "skill set" had were just enough to fill the skill bar (roughly 10 skills if i'm not mistaken). One just had to see what move the opponent would use and you could guess what skill set they were using and with that you could predict and reasses each others fighting styles. Players weren't limited to one skills set though. Each school (class) would have 3 skill sets near the start, and players were able to learn more skills from stealing/buying from other schools or from dungeons originally. The way to mitigate some of the crazyness this could cause was by having a CD between switching skill sets during combat (would be about 10 seconds if not mistaken). Which meant you couldn't abuse skills constantly from different skill sets.
This whole system would allow for the intricacies of pvp to shine (constant assessment/re-assessment of opponent, dynamic fights (not just brain dead rotations), and sometimes interesting surprises). While also allowing players to have potentially a HUGE list of skills available to them for their choosing.
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So with those systems being highlighted in AoC i'd actually be fine with a limited number of skills on a hot bar as long as there is a fairly large pool of skills available in their repertoire. This would keep the classes themselves somewhat manageable (from an opponent stand point) while still varied enough that players could choose how to build their chars (single pvp focus, raid focused, general, seige focused, ect...).
This is of course assumes that the "large pool" would have varied skills.
Just for example, compare what the mage was like in Vanilla WoW compared to modern WoW. In Vanilla WoW the devs literally just did as you did, throwing a bunch of abilities together and calling it a class. The result is that gameplay pretty much revolved around 2-3 abilities with little thought to what you were doing.
By contrast the modern Wow mage has a variety of distinct playstyles. Frost mage is a combo style, Fire mage is proc-based and Arcane mage is a builder-spender. You'll notice that the modern WoW mage has access to fewer abilities than the Vanilla WoW mage but the gameplay (for raiding at least) is far more interesting.
So, see how the class plays first before demanding more buttons to press.
I absolutely hated when WoW dumbed down the classes. PvP was so more interesting when you had more abilities to choose from. It really separated the good players from the bad. Good players would use abilities that most people would barely use. They found a good use for them in special situations. Also, with more abilities that are only used in certain circumstances it helps break the same rotations everyone always uses.
Having an extra hotbar doesn't mean you can't have distinct playstyles. Even classic WoW has distinct playstyles based on your talent tree.
GW2 has some mechanics like this. The first skill of every weapon is the auto attack, usually a set of 2-3 comboed attacks that activate automatically. That in itself is quite boring until they are combined with other abilities. My Mesmer has a state called mirage cloak which can be activated by either dodging or using certain abilities. When I'm in mirage cloak it changes my auto attack into a charge that interrupts the target. This immediately opens up a lot more gameplay options for me as I get to choose when I activate the mirage cloak depending on the circumstances.
In my opinion, if you have an auto attack ability, a mirage cloak and a charge that interrupts all as three separate and individual abilities, you have the same basic class as this, with less opportunities to confuse a new player, and more options for an experienced player.
The reason I stopped playing GW2 is because the whole thing felt to me like they made the UI and control scheme first, and then tried to fit in classes and mechanics around that.
I disagree. By combining with mirage cloak with both the charge attack and the dodge you force players to choose how to use it. Do you use mirage cloak to avoid taking damage or use it with the charge skill to interrupt a crucial ability, or as a gap closer/escape tool?
Sometimes adding a little restriction to someone forces them to be more creative in their work. Making each function a separate button may seem like the same basic kit but it takes away the need to choose, which in turn reduces the depth that more experienced players can utilise.
Some restriction is good, but too much restriction (or restriction to fit a UI) isn't.
I'd rather a choice be about what is best to do, rather than having to decide if doing a thing now will hurt later.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just for example, compare what the mage was like in Vanilla WoW compared to modern WoW. In Vanilla WoW the devs literally just did as you did, throwing a bunch of abilities together and calling it a class. The result is that gameplay pretty much revolved around 2-3 abilities with little thought to what you were doing.
By contrast the modern Wow mage has a variety of distinct playstyles. Frost mage is a combo style, Fire mage is proc-based and Arcane mage is a builder-spender. You'll notice that the modern WoW mage has access to fewer abilities than the Vanilla WoW mage but the gameplay (for raiding at least) is far more interesting.
So, see how the class plays first before demanding more buttons to press.
I absolutely hated when WoW dumbed down the classes. PvP was so more interesting when you had more abilities to choose from. It really separated the good players from the bad. Good players would use abilities that most people would barely use. They found a good use for them in special situations. Also, with more abilities that are only used in certain circumstances it helps break the same rotations everyone always uses.
Having an extra hotbar doesn't mean you can't have distinct playstyles. Even classic WoW has distinct playstyles based on your talent tree.
You might well be right about the PvP side (I didn't PvP at all in WoW) but from a raiding perspective the gameplay in Vanilla was pretty boring all things considered. Most classes were restricted to using 1-2 abilities because of mana restrictions, and often had to swap to just auto attacking with a wand during fights because they ran out of mana so quickly.
Yes, back in Vanilla you had a lot more spells to use, but just having more spells does NOT make the gameplay more interesting. Again, comparing the modern WoW Frost Mage to the Vanilla WoW Frost Mage, the Vanilla Mage has access to 32 different spells, a lot more than the modern WoW Mage. But then you look at the gameplay. In a raid, a Vanilla WoW Frost Mage rotation looks something like this:
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Fireblast (only to finish off low health targets)
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Such exciting gameplay isn't it!!!
Now let's look at the modern WoW Frost Mage rotation:
Cast Ice Lance after every Flurry cast.
Cast Condensed Life-Force, if equipped.
Cast Icy Veins if Frozen Orb is either available or will be up in the next 4 seconds.
Cast Rune of Power directly after your Frozen Orb.
Cast any other Azerite Essence you have equipped.
Cast Frozen Orb on cooldown.
Cast Ice Lance when you have Fingers of Frost Icon Fingers of Frost, but try and save a single proc if Frozen Orb is coming up in the next 4 seconds, thereby allowing an extra cast inside Packed Ice.
Cast Blizzard if it is currently instant cast, due to being talented into Freezing Rain.
Cast Flurry Icon Flurry if Brain Freeze is up, and:
if Packed Ice is not on the target, after a Frostbolt, like the standard rotation, or;
if Packed Ice is on the target, immediately.
Cast Ray of Frost, if talented, when Packed Ice is on the target, and interrupt it as soon as you hit two Fingers of Frost.
Cast Blizzard on cooldown, even on a single target.
Cast Frostbolt.
Now I don't know about you but I find the modern WoW Frost Mage far more interesting to use. Oh and of course the rotation I just wrote above is only one variation. If you choose a different talent set-up your rotation changes completely. So not only are you using more abilities in your rotation but the rotation changes depending on the circumstances of the fight.
Vanilla Mage has access to 32 different spells, a lot more than the modern WoW Mage.
An EQ2 mage has more spells, and uses almost all of them on raids.
The issue here isn't the number of spells (too many in Vanilla and too few now). The issue is that WoW has never been an over all well designed game. You could possibly have a good class with the number of spells a current WoW mage has - though looking at the rotation, a current WoW mage is not an exmple of this and I have no other examples to give. You can also have a good class with more than 30 abilities. What you can't have is a good class with shit developers - and that is basically all tbis talk about WoW says to me.
Cast Ice Lance after every Flurry cast.
Cast Condensed Life-Force, if equipped.
Cast Icy Veins if Frozen Orb is either available or will be up in the next 4 seconds.
Cast Rune of Power directly after your Frozen Orb.
Cast any other Azerite Essence you have equipped.
Cast Frozen Orb on cooldown.
Cast Ice Lance when you have Fingers of Frost Icon Fingers of Frost, but try and save a single proc if Frozen Orb is coming up in the next 4 seconds, thereby allowing an extra cast inside Packed Ice.
Cast Blizzard if it is currently instant cast, due to being talented into Freezing Rain.
Cast Flurry Icon Flurry if Brain Freeze is up, and:
if Packed Ice is not on the target, after a Frostbolt, like the standard rotation, or;
if Packed Ice is on the target, immediately.
Cast Ray of Frost, if talented, when Packed Ice is on the target, and interrupt it as soon as you hit two Fingers of Frost.
Cast Blizzard on cooldown, even on a single target.
Cast Frostbolt.
... is very nearly just as boring to me as casting frostbolt over and over. There is no point where an actual decision is made, the closest thing is an if/then/else situation.
I don't consider pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 to be all that different to pressing 1, 1, 1, 1. If I know the order I am going to press abilities, or if there is a very simple "if this then that" which alters things in a miniscule manner, then there is no point in which we need to think. And to me, if there is no point where I need to think, then what's the point?
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
There is no point to discuss about this because there are some much way to make gameplay fun and complex.
If a game as 10 abilities per class with interaction between abilities , you'll have a very boring solo gameplay but a very complex gameplay with a full group ... and so on.
Let's wait to have the gameplay IS will give us and let's found what are the weak and strong point of it once we got it ... because every one of us have different experiences and preferences ...
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@noaani I picked the Frost Mage as it is a simple example which illustrates my point well (my point being that just having lots of abilities does NOT equal good gameplay or choice). Is it the best example or the best gameplay? Probably not, but it's just an example.
I would also like to echo @Damokles question: Give us an example of what YOU consider to be "interesting" combat in an mmorpg.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game. On top of this there will always be an "optimal" way of doing things, and the more gameplay options you put into the game the bigger the difference between the best and the worst options. The irony is that putting more options into the game actually reduces the list of viable choices because of how much harder things are to balance. Just look at Pokemon. 890 available pokemon to choose from, and yet only a tiny fraction of those are actually viable to use.
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HartwellMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just seeing that GW2 screenshot with the hot bar makes me cringe if that's what we are getting lol It just looks so..basic and boring
It's really not that bad for every class. Warriors, necromancers, rangers, and guardians have it a bit easier when it comes to skill sets. The harder classes are engineers, elementalists, mesmers, thieves, and revenants.
Warriors, necromancers, rangers, and guardians have 2 weapon skill sets to swap between. Necromancers can transform into a lich and a shadow form to get some additional abilities. Warriors can do something like that with one of their cooldowns.
Engineers can swap between up to 5 different toolkits, which changes their weapon action bar for each tool kit. Each toolkit also gives them a quick-use ability from that toolkit that they can use at any time.
Elementalists have 4 element stances, which change up their weapon action bar for each element.
Mesmers manage clones and what they end up exploding into. They can swap between 2 weapon sets. They generally have small health pools and focus on avoidance.
Thieves are glass cannons. Their middle weapon ability changes depending on the weapons that they are holding in their hands. The class has the lowest weapon set swap cooldown for their 2 weapon sets. They can choose a class to steal an item from and gain a 1x use ability. Not the hardest to play, but they aren't the easiest, even with their limited skill set. A wrong move can kill them.
Revenants get 2 stances and 2 weapon sets. The stances change out their utility skills and passive benefits. You need to match your weapons up to what you are trying to do with the stances, but swapping between these things have cooldowns.
There are also elite specializations. These can make classes easier or harder, but I haven't played every elite spec. An added note is that all classes have underwater abilities and weapons, although underwater content is negligible.
@hartwell Thievs in GW2 are actually one of the easiest classes in the late game.
Depending on your spec ofcource, but the Daredevil Power Thief for one has a three attack rotation.
Dash -> Autoattackrotation -> autoattackrotation -> dodge -> repeat
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As a mage on a raid, I want the following abilities as the absolute basics.
At least four long range single target damage abilities that vary in damage amount with appropriately scaled cast and recast timer.
At least 2 long range AoE damage abilities.
At least 1 massive damage ability that requires specific positioning to use to maximum effect.
At least one proactive threat management ability.
At least one reactive threat management ability on a very long recast.
At least one mana management ability.
With the minimum of the above, we are at 10 spells. I would consider that a barely functioning raid DPS mage - it is the skeleton of what could be a good and enjoyable class, but in itself it has almost no flavor or interest as yet.
The thing with the above is that you can't combine any of those abilities together without taking away from the class.
The damage abilities should speak for themselves. There are only 7 there - 4 single target and 2 AoE, along with one positional ability that is the only part of the class so far that allows for a better player to differentiate themselves. This is one area many games simply give"a" direct damage spell and "a" AoE spell and call it quits. This is why many games have boring combat. Add in a few of each type, each with differing cast, recast and damage values (and mana used, I consider that obvious but am including it for the benefit of others that may be reading). The reason for wanting spells with different recast timers (which in itself kind of requires differing cast timers and damage values in order to maintain some form of balance) will become apparent a few paragraphs from now.
Now, one could look at the two threat management abilities and ask if they could be combined with each other, or if they could be combined with other abilities. The thing is, in a tab target based MMO (which is the perspective I am looking at here), the correct use of threat management is a skill unto itself.
The best DPS mages know when to stop casting damage abilities and instead use that time to cast something to lower their threat - the players DPS appears to suffer because they stop casting damage abilities, but they gain a higher probability of not pulling aggro, being killed and thus having a much lower DPS. If a proactive DPS ability is simply combined in to (as an example) a direct damage ability, then that totally removes the skill involved in knowing when to take the DPS output hit in order to lower your threat in a proactive manner.
All of the above also applies to a mana management ability.
A reactive threat management ability is for those few times the mage does manage to pull aggro, and with quick enough reflexes (DPS mages don't get hit by raid mobs twice), you can prevent a death (or a wipe, depending on raid mechanics and timing).
Those three abilities need to be independent of each other, and independent of anything else, as a raid DPS mage should have the ability to make use of any of them at what ever point the mage feels they are needed - recast timer notwithstanding.
Now, the problem with the above, as I mentioned, is that it is lacking interest. One way to make the above class fun to play would be to add in a few PBAoE abilities, so that the player then has a position based rotation where they need to time running in to the mob (or mobs - as it may only be efficient if there are three or more that you can hit) and cast PBAoE spells, followed by the massive damage position dependent spell from the above list.
To make this even more interesting, there could be the option of having one or two of the smaller damage abilities able to be cast while running, so you are not completely wasting time running in to position yourself. This need not be a new ability.
Then to add the final bit of interest to the class, a short duration self buff that gives all spells cast for the next 10 seconds a [x%] chance to halve the recast timer, and a single target group only (specifically not raid only) buff that adds a damage proc to any melee attack the target successfully makes.
The first of these two buffs is what makes the class a little interesting. You can't have a rotation running optimally if there is a chance that your best spell could be back and ready to cast in half the normal amount of time. You may have to make decisions about whether it is worth casting that self buff in hopes of lowering the recast on a big single target direct damage ability, or hold on to it for a 30 more seconds until your massive damage position dependent ability is ready. You may find yourself in a situation where the best thing for you to do DPS wise is to run in and fire off your PBAoE's and positional attack even if not all of them are up.
Basically, that one single buff turns this class (or any class) from something where you can work out a rotation and just stick to it, to one where you have to be constantly assessing and reassessing your situation every few seconds to determine what is the best thing to be doing next.
The second buff (the one you cast on another player to add damage to melee attacks) is something that you can cast on a melee based character that will (if designed and balanced correctly) slightly alter the dynamics of that players class. It is a buff where smaller but faster attacks will gain more than bigger, slower attacks, and so the player you cast it on - if they know what they are doing - will want to alter how they play ever so slightly to best take advantage of that buff. This is the sort of ability that - to me - every class should have that they can cast on another player, so that there are always subtle changes to how your class behaves based on which of these buffs you have on you - which is obviously dependent on which classes you have with you in your group.
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So, with the above we have a functioning and interesting raid DPS mage class. There are 14 spells, all of which need to be independent of each other. If the function of any of those 14 spells in combined, then the class is diminished as a whole.
The thing with that 14 spells is that there is no "utility". It is just the basics of being a raiding mage and not falling asleep. I'd also like to add to that list a single "interesting" spell, something along the lines of "Tempered Fate" as you mentioned.
I absolutely DO want abilities like that in any game I play. They make the game interesting - not just combat. As a mage, I'd love to have a bubble spell that I can cast on any target (friendly, enemy of myself) that I can then control for 5 - 8 seconds in any direction, on any axis. To me, that gives the class so many possibilities of things they can do, situations they can get out of (or in to) that others can't necessarily do (though others have their own thing).
So now we have a 15 spell class, one that is interesting to play in a raid, and has some interest outside of combat and in unexpected circumstances.
This type of character is what I had in mind when I said 15 spells is the minimum I expect in order to make combat interesting - as again, you can't take any of those abilities away from this build, nor can you combine the function of any of these abilities, without diminishing the class over all.
Having four abilities is fine in a game where you are only every really fighting other players. In a game where there is an expectation of spending hours fighting PvE content though, it won't be enough.
For damage output I mean things like:
Ranged or melee (or hybrid)
Single-target or aoe-focused
Consistent dps
Ramping up dps
Burst dps
Once you know what kind of damage output you want from your character you then have to think about the gameplay. Some common gameplay types you encounter are:
Builder-spender
Dot-explosion
Buff/debuff upkeep
Combo
Proc-based
Once you have a general idea of how the class will operate THEN you can think about the individual abilities that make up the class.
Just for example, compare what the mage was like in Vanilla WoW compared to modern WoW. In Vanilla WoW the devs literally just did as you did, throwing a bunch of abilities together and calling it a class. The result is that gameplay pretty much revolved around 2-3 abilities with little thought to what you were doing.
By contrast the modern Wow mage has a variety of distinct playstyles. Frost mage is a combo style, Fire mage is proc-based and Arcane mage is a builder-spender. You'll notice that the modern WoW mage has access to fewer abilities than the Vanilla WoW mage but the gameplay (for raiding at least) is far more interesting.
So, see how the class plays first before demanding more buttons to press.
As do I but you can't deny they know what they are doing when it comes to class design.
That said the principles I laid out in my previous post can be found in most mmorpgs.
Awww I thought you were always looking for a new excuse to argue with @noaani.
Interesting combat? Nope.
The developers of WoW developed their combat system based on the entertainment coming from the encounter. It's like they seem to have forgotten that the vast majority of engagements in an MMO are with base population (trash mobs to you and I). This holds true in solo, group and raid play. By definition, these encounters are not interesting. This means the majority of encounters in WoW are boring and not fun, and the only time combat in WoW is fun is when you fight a specific boss with a mechanic you enjoy.
I'd rather the enjoyment come from the class than from the content, as I think anyone that has played such a game would. This doesn't prevent content from also being enjoyable as well, it just means that even trash mob killing is fun.
I should also point out that my above post, I didn't get in to anything build or subclass specific. Everything was generic in relation to any mage/x class that is intended to be cast based DPS. There are dozens of specific things that you could add to that via augments (there is no reason you couldn't build a proc based DPS class out of the shell outlined above, just using augments).
The entire concept lf the position based spells is just one example of how you could make a caster class more interesting than just someone that stands back and hurls fireballs at a target, and combined with the buff to reduce recast timers turns the class in to one where players with actual skill will be able to deal twice the damage output of someone that just comes in and tries to follow a rotation.
I'm quite sure you could see how lowering the ability count from the class as I detailed it above would detract from the class over all. If Ashes were limited to 12 or fewer hotbar slots (14 or fewer really), a class like this straight up could not happen.
I am not saying "this is what I want", merely "this is the kind of thing I want". In order to have this kind of thing, the game needs to support more than 15 hitbar slots from day 1.
Edit to add, with a class system as fluid as Ashes, you can't (or shouldn't) compare it to a game with a curated class system.
Wildstar had "interesting combat", but never took off. Tera has "interesting combat".
They ALSO had rotations. If a game needs to have skills to be impossible to put into a rotation, then give us an example...
My perfect amount of skills would be a 5-6 button rotation during standard pve combat, with 5-8 situational skills, to fill in or replace other skills.
Edit: Remember please that there is a pvp scene, where they will have to LEARN ALL SKILLS FROM OTHER CLASSES (at least the base spells). That is pretty much impossible, if every class has more then 13 standard spells...
With a class system like Ashes, there is no reason you couldn't build a class based on a rotation if a player wanted it, but the option to build a class should be there for those that find such things more boring and tedious than minesweeper.
As for PvP, we already have good reason to believe classes will have more than 13 abilities to pick from, as the ranger has that many listed already. I would pick each base class has around 20, with each subclass offering 3 or 4 augments on each ability, meaning the game will have almost 4,000 different augmented abilities - before you look at augments from other avenues.
People aren't going to try and remember all of that.
I personally like this type of system having a lot of abilities to choose from.
This discussion is really about how many abilities will be available on a hotbar and how many hotbars will be available during combat - that's what will be limiting access during combat to some degree.
Although, again... we should also be factoring in augments and how many abilities will be available on weapons and weapon swapping during combat.
Would like to see some primary source info on this though.
That all depends on how they handle it. If they are lazy and just have the combo skill deal extra damage, that would be boring because there would be no thought process or choice behind it (you would just use the weapon skill as often as possible). However, if the weapon skill QTE affected your gameplay in some meaningful way, that would be a lot more interesting. If, for example, the next ability you use after your weapon skill QTE has a reduced cooldown, that affects your gameplay because you get to choose which of your abilities will get the reduced cooldown.
GW2 has some mechanics like this. The first skill of every weapon is the auto attack, usually a set of 2-3 comboed attacks that activate automatically. That in itself is quite boring until they are combined with other abilities. My Mesmer has a state called mirage cloak which can be activated by either dodging or using certain abilities. When I'm in mirage cloak it changes my auto attack into a charge that interrupts the target. This immediately opens up a lot more gameplay options for me as I get to choose when I activate the mirage cloak depending on the circumstances.
As a side note one thing that needs to be considered is that the combat system needs to be simple enough for new players to pick up without too much difficulty and still be somewhat effective, whilst having enough depth that more experienced players don't get bored by it. There is a fine line to be had here and something that a lot of games fail at managing it.
The reason I stopped playing GW2 is because the whole thing felt to me like they made the UI and control scheme first, and then tried to fit in classes and mechanics around that.
I disagree. By combining with mirage cloak with both the charge attack and the dodge you force players to choose how to use it. Do you use mirage cloak to avoid taking damage or use it with the charge skill to interrupt a crucial ability, or as a gap closer/escape tool?
Sometimes adding a little restriction to someone forces them to be more creative in their work. Making each function a separate button may seem like the same basic kit but it takes away the need to choose, which in turn reduces the depth that more experienced players can utilise.
There are interesting systems like BDO. Where almost any skills can be activated without it needing to be on a hot bar. This of course has some pros and cons to this system. The varied and interesting rotations a player can preform.The need to thoroughly know each skill key stroke combination in order to maximize DPS. The need to constantly test varying skills combos with each update. The large learning curve it comes to pvp (in regards to knowing other classes possible rotations and weakness). And so much more.
This system has caused the developers to have to revamp their pvp system multiple times. Due to skill's power creep, CC mechanics being outdated or overpowered, skill counter mechanics not being viable, and more.
Still with all that being said it's probably my favorite system currently when it comes to skills and skills on hotbars.
A close second would be Age of Wushu skill system. Where almost all skills could fall under 4 main categories (parry, attack, block, movement). This created an action roshamo style combat. The amount of skills each "skill set" had were just enough to fill the skill bar (roughly 10 skills if i'm not mistaken). One just had to see what move the opponent would use and you could guess what skill set they were using and with that you could predict and reasses each others fighting styles. Players weren't limited to one skills set though. Each school (class) would have 3 skill sets near the start, and players were able to learn more skills from stealing/buying from other schools or from dungeons originally. The way to mitigate some of the crazyness this could cause was by having a CD between switching skill sets during combat (would be about 10 seconds if not mistaken). Which meant you couldn't abuse skills constantly from different skill sets.
This whole system would allow for the intricacies of pvp to shine (constant assessment/re-assessment of opponent, dynamic fights (not just brain dead rotations), and sometimes interesting surprises). While also allowing players to have potentially a HUGE list of skills available to them for their choosing.
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So with those systems being highlighted in AoC i'd actually be fine with a limited number of skills on a hot bar as long as there is a fairly large pool of skills available in their repertoire. This would keep the classes themselves somewhat manageable (from an opponent stand point) while still varied enough that players could choose how to build their chars (single pvp focus, raid focused, general, seige focused, ect...).
This is of course assumes that the "large pool" would have varied skills.
I absolutely hated when WoW dumbed down the classes. PvP was so more interesting when you had more abilities to choose from. It really separated the good players from the bad. Good players would use abilities that most people would barely use. They found a good use for them in special situations. Also, with more abilities that are only used in certain circumstances it helps break the same rotations everyone always uses.
Having an extra hotbar doesn't mean you can't have distinct playstyles. Even classic WoW has distinct playstyles based on your talent tree.
I'd rather a choice be about what is best to do, rather than having to decide if doing a thing now will hurt later.
You might well be right about the PvP side (I didn't PvP at all in WoW) but from a raiding perspective the gameplay in Vanilla was pretty boring all things considered. Most classes were restricted to using 1-2 abilities because of mana restrictions, and often had to swap to just auto attacking with a wand during fights because they ran out of mana so quickly.
Yes, back in Vanilla you had a lot more spells to use, but just having more spells does NOT make the gameplay more interesting. Again, comparing the modern WoW Frost Mage to the Vanilla WoW Frost Mage, the Vanilla Mage has access to 32 different spells, a lot more than the modern WoW Mage. But then you look at the gameplay. In a raid, a Vanilla WoW Frost Mage rotation looks something like this:
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Fireblast (only to finish off low health targets)
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Frostbolt
Such exciting gameplay isn't it!!!
Now let's look at the modern WoW Frost Mage rotation:
Cast Ice Lance after every Flurry cast.
Cast Condensed Life-Force, if equipped.
Cast Icy Veins if Frozen Orb is either available or will be up in the next 4 seconds.
Cast Rune of Power directly after your Frozen Orb.
Cast any other Azerite Essence you have equipped.
Cast Frozen Orb on cooldown.
Cast Ice Lance when you have Fingers of Frost Icon Fingers of Frost, but try and save a single proc if Frozen Orb is coming up in the next 4 seconds, thereby allowing an extra cast inside Packed Ice.
Cast Blizzard if it is currently instant cast, due to being talented into Freezing Rain.
Cast Flurry Icon Flurry if Brain Freeze is up, and:
if Packed Ice is not on the target, after a Frostbolt, like the standard rotation, or;
if Packed Ice is on the target, immediately.
Cast Ray of Frost, if talented, when Packed Ice is on the target, and interrupt it as soon as you hit two Fingers of Frost.
Cast Blizzard on cooldown, even on a single target.
Cast Frostbolt.
Now I don't know about you but I find the modern WoW Frost Mage far more interesting to use. Oh and of course the rotation I just wrote above is only one variation. If you choose a different talent set-up your rotation changes completely. So not only are you using more abilities in your rotation but the rotation changes depending on the circumstances of the fight.
The issue here isn't the number of spells (too many in Vanilla and too few now). The issue is that WoW has never been an over all well designed game. You could possibly have a good class with the number of spells a current WoW mage has - though looking at the rotation, a current WoW mage is not an exmple of this and I have no other examples to give. You can also have a good class with more than 30 abilities. What you can't have is a good class with shit developers - and that is basically all tbis talk about WoW says to me.
And yes, this...
... is very nearly just as boring to me as casting frostbolt over and over. There is no point where an actual decision is made, the closest thing is an if/then/else situation.
I don't consider pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 to be all that different to pressing 1, 1, 1, 1. If I know the order I am going to press abilities, or if there is a very simple "if this then that" which alters things in a miniscule manner, then there is no point in which we need to think. And to me, if there is no point where I need to think, then what's the point?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
If a game as 10 abilities per class with interaction between abilities , you'll have a very boring solo gameplay but a very complex gameplay with a full group ... and so on.
Let's wait to have the gameplay IS will give us and let's found what are the weak and strong point of it once we got it ... because every one of us have different experiences and preferences ...
I would also like to echo @Damokles question: Give us an example of what YOU consider to be "interesting" combat in an mmorpg.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game. On top of this there will always be an "optimal" way of doing things, and the more gameplay options you put into the game the bigger the difference between the best and the worst options. The irony is that putting more options into the game actually reduces the list of viable choices because of how much harder things are to balance. Just look at Pokemon. 890 available pokemon to choose from, and yet only a tiny fraction of those are actually viable to use.
It's really not that bad for every class. Warriors, necromancers, rangers, and guardians have it a bit easier when it comes to skill sets. The harder classes are engineers, elementalists, mesmers, thieves, and revenants.
Warriors, necromancers, rangers, and guardians have 2 weapon skill sets to swap between. Necromancers can transform into a lich and a shadow form to get some additional abilities. Warriors can do something like that with one of their cooldowns.
Engineers can swap between up to 5 different toolkits, which changes their weapon action bar for each tool kit. Each toolkit also gives them a quick-use ability from that toolkit that they can use at any time.
Elementalists have 4 element stances, which change up their weapon action bar for each element.
Mesmers manage clones and what they end up exploding into. They can swap between 2 weapon sets. They generally have small health pools and focus on avoidance.
Thieves are glass cannons. Their middle weapon ability changes depending on the weapons that they are holding in their hands. The class has the lowest weapon set swap cooldown for their 2 weapon sets. They can choose a class to steal an item from and gain a 1x use ability. Not the hardest to play, but they aren't the easiest, even with their limited skill set. A wrong move can kill them.
Revenants get 2 stances and 2 weapon sets. The stances change out their utility skills and passive benefits. You need to match your weapons up to what you are trying to do with the stances, but swapping between these things have cooldowns.
There are also elite specializations. These can make classes easier or harder, but I haven't played every elite spec. An added note is that all classes have underwater abilities and weapons, although underwater content is negligible.
Depending on your spec ofcource, but the Daredevil Power Thief for one has a three attack rotation.
Dash -> Autoattackrotation -> autoattackrotation -> dodge -> repeat