@hartwell Thievs in GW2 are actually one of the easiest classes in the late game.
Depending on your spec ofcource, but the Daredevil Power Thief for one has a three attack rotation.
Dash -> Autoattackrotation -> autoattackrotation -> dodge -> repeat
PvE tends to end up with that result for glass cannons for some reason. I'm more in favor of the PvP end of things and remember seeing good thieves and bad thieves. Good thieves were almost mystical. Bad thieves were just cheesy build leftovers.
Edit: I hope that AoC can make defensive abilities sought after in PvE like they are in PvP situations. It sucks when everything is DPS related. I was playing Classic WoW and nobody used polymorph or sap in dungeons like they used to. DPS was so good that people could just down everything and didn't need to worry about damage taken. Only place polymorph was used was during raid boss fights.
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@hartwell Thievs in GW2 are actually one of the easiest classes in the late game.
Depending on your spec ofcource, but the Daredevil Power Thief for one has a three attack rotation.
Dash -> Autoattackrotation -> autoattackrotation -> dodge -> repeat
PvE tends to end up with that result for glass cannons for some reason. I'm more in favor of the PvP end of things and remember seeing good thieves and bad thieves. Good thieves were almost mystical. Bad thieves were just cheesy build leftovers.
Edit: I hope that AoC can make defensive abilities sought after in PvE like they are in PvP situations. It sucks when everything is DPS related. I was playing Classic WoW and nobody used polymorph or sap in dungeons like they used to. DPS was so good that people could just down everything and didn't need to worry about damage taken. Only place polymorph was used was during raid boss fights.
I hope for this too, and not just at end-game either. It astonishes me how many mmorpgs these days give you CC abilities during the levelling process and then not actually make you use them until max level. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, TERA, Aion and BDO all suffer from this problem and the result is that players reach end-game without a clue of how half their toolkit works. Then of course when they are put in situations where they need to use those CC abilities they don't know how to.
This all comes down to the developer. During the levelling process there needs to be regular occurrences where you are forced to use your utility and CC abilities so that by the time you reach max level you'll be comfortable with them and we get a much smoother transition into end-game content.
@hartwell Thievs in GW2 are actually one of the easiest classes in the late game.
Depending on your spec ofcource, but the Daredevil Power Thief for one has a three attack rotation.
Dash -> Autoattackrotation -> autoattackrotation -> dodge -> repeat
PvE tends to end up with that result for glass cannons for some reason. I'm more in favor of the PvP end of things and remember seeing good thieves and bad thieves. Good thieves were almost mystical. Bad thieves were just cheesy build leftovers.
Edit: I hope that AoC can make defensive abilities sought after in PvE like they are in PvP situations. It sucks when everything is DPS related. I was playing Classic WoW and nobody used polymorph or sap in dungeons like they used to. DPS was so good that people could just down everything and didn't need to worry about damage taken. Only place polymorph was used was during raid boss fights.
I hope for this too, and not just at end-game either. It astonishes me how many mmorpgs these days give you CC abilities during the levelling process and then not actually make you use them until max level. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, TERA, Aion and BDO all suffer from this problem and the result is that players reach end-game without a clue of how half their toolkit works. Then of course when they are put in situations where they need to use those CC abilities they don't know how to.
This all comes down to the developer. During the levelling process there needs to be regular occurrences where you are forced to use your utility and CC abilities so that by the time you reach max level you'll be comfortable with them and we get a much smoother transition into end-game content.
I remember a hunter in wow, who did not know at max lvl that his pet had a taunt on auto cast....
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
It didn't have layers, it had an if/then/else, and then moved on to another if/then/else when the first was resolved.
Going back to EQ2 wizards.
The spell Fusion, 3 minute recast timer, massive damage to three targets, but only if they are in a 5 meter, 75 degree cone in front of the caster.
In order to get the most out of casting this ability, you need to think first if the two abilities wizards have to increase the damage of any spell (increase to spell damage and 100% crit chance) were up or almost up. You also needed to consider if the Troubadour in your group was due to cast a buff on you to halve the recast timer of spells you cast for a short duration. You also needed to consider if there were two or three targets that are close enough to hit them all in the restricted area of effect of this spell. You then also need to consider if you can get to the location to cast this spell and back safely or not.
The if/then stament of whether to cast this one spell therefore has 4 other if/then statements contained within it that all need to be answered before the first if/then can be answered.
Just to make it interesting, not all of the above conditions need to be present in order for Fusion to be the best thing to cast next, and whether Ice Comet is available to cast will also alter how some of those individual conditions effect the decision.
Okay... i just read through a few EQ2 forum threads about wizard gameplay and spells. It seems like the EQ2 wizard was a mix of what the bard and mage will be in AoC, buffs/debuffs/dmg spells.
It is a bit confusing, because the main class mage is separated into 6 different classes (Wizard, Warlock, illusionist, coercer, conjurer, necromancer), but i will try to focus on the wizard as an example.
The funny thing is that there IS aparently a standard rotation!
1. Ice spears
2. Immolate/incinerate
3. Ball of fire
4. Firestorm
5. Dots
6. Rotate between immolate, BoF, FS and dots
Another "rotation":
1. Big Nuke (Ball of Incineration)
2. Stun
3. Shackle
4. Retreat a bit
5. Wait for next big nuke
6. Re-root
7. Repeat 6 and 7
1v2 rotation:
1. Root one mob
2. Stun 2. Mob
3. Root second mob
4. Kill second mob
5. Root first add
6. Kill them
Against more then 2:
Use a group root line
1. Root whole group
2. Burn down one
3. Reroot with single tagret root if necessary
4. Check timelimit on group root, recast if necessary
5. Kill off the mobs one at a time with nukes
To be honest, it seems to be a really fascinating gameplay model, even though it is highly convoluted with all the different spell lines and effects. It feels like they wanted to put too many spells into one class and just stuffed it with spells.
One class has 9 buffs, 14 single target spells, 5 AoEs, each of these spells has a spell line with differing levels of strength. That means that one class has at least 84 spells, if we assume that each spellline has at least 3 subordinate spells.
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
It didn't have layers, it had an if/then/else, and then moved on to another if/then/else when the first was resolved.
Going back to EQ2 wizards.
The spell Fusion, 3 minute recast timer, massive damage to three targets, but only if they are in a 5 meter, 75 degree cone in front of the caster.
In order to get the most out of casting this ability, you need to think first if the two abilities wizards have to increase the damage of any spell (increase to spell damage and 100% crit chance) were up or almost up. You also needed to consider if the Troubadour in your group was due to cast a buff on you to halve the recast timer of spells you cast for a short duration. You also needed to consider if there were two or three targets that are close enough to hit them all in the restricted area of effect of this spell. You then also need to consider if you can get to the location to cast this spell and back safely or not.
The if/then stament of whether to cast this one spell therefore has 4 other if/then statements contained within it that all need to be answered before the first if/then can be answered.
Just to make it interesting, not all of the above conditions need to be present in order for Fusion to be the best thing to cast next, and whether Ice Comet is available to cast will also alter how some of those individual conditions effect the decision.
That is a spell decision like an ogre/onion.
Those abilities are <generic buff 1> <generic buff 2> <AoE ability>. Nothing unique or meaningful in the slightest.
That means that one class has at least 84 spells, if we assume that each spellline has at least 3 subordinate spells.
150+, but that wasn't really "a thing", as each spell line was what mattered, not the individual spells.
The way that game worked (works) is that rather than spells getting better as you level, you gain new, better versions of the same spell. Your cooldown was for the spell line, not the individual spell.
The reason they did this is because each spell could be upgraded in various ways - you had the standard version you got as you leveled, but crafters could make a very cheap upgrade to that. Mobs could also drop a version that was an upgrade to the cheap player made one, but then there was also a player made version that was significantly more expensive - and thus better. Then there was the final version (for most spells), that was a very rare drop and many players never saw any of these for there class.
The reason spells were replaced rather than upgraded was to keep this spell upgrading ecosystem relevant for the whole game.
It was often the case that a new spell was less effective than an upgraded spell, but there was never a time you would have use for two spells of the same spell line. Once you upgraded a new spell to be better than it's older version, you would never have a use for that older version again.
As to the rotations you mentioned... the first is a wizard just dialling it in. There is no mention of the biggsst hitters (Ice Comet or it's AoE variant, Fusion or Manaburn if you have it). There is also no mention of what to do differently if you have a Troubador, nor any mention of when to use you self buffs or when you may want to hold off using them.
The rest of the rotations are all solo play only - no wizard worth a shit would cast a root in group or raid play as any damage the mob took had a chance to break the root. A wizard could root a mob and hold it until a big nuke was ready, cast that nuke and then recast the root in order to solo kill any mob in the game that could be rooted (eventually), but if anyone else is present and theydeal damage to the mob, they risk breaking the root at a time when there may not be one ready to recast on the target. Should this happen, the wizard is dead, without question.
And yeah, 9 buffs, 14 single target and 5 AoE sounds good to me.
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
It didn't have layers, it had an if/then/else, and then moved on to another if/then/else when the first was resolved.
Going back to EQ2 wizards.
The spell Fusion, 3 minute recast timer, massive damage to three targets, but only if they are in a 5 meter, 75 degree cone in front of the caster.
In order to get the most out of casting this ability, you need to think first if the two abilities wizards have to increase the damage of any spell (increase to spell damage and 100% crit chance) were up or almost up. You also needed to consider if the Troubadour in your group was due to cast a buff on you to halve the recast timer of spells you cast for a short duration. You also needed to consider if there were two or three targets that are close enough to hit them all in the restricted area of effect of this spell. You then also need to consider if you can get to the location to cast this spell and back safely or not.
The if/then stament of whether to cast this one spell therefore has 4 other if/then statements contained within it that all need to be answered before the first if/then can be answered.
Just to make it interesting, not all of the above conditions need to be present in order for Fusion to be the best thing to cast next, and whether Ice Comet is available to cast will also alter how some of those individual conditions effect the decision.
That is a spell decision like an ogre/onion.
Those abilities are <generic buff 1> <generic buff 2> <AoE ability>. Nothing unique or meaningful in the slightest.
Name one buff in MMO's other than EQ2 that half the recast timer of any spells you cast while it is active.
In order to be generic, you should be able to name a buff for 50% or more of the MMO's out there.
I mean, it IS just a buff, but the implications of the specific buff and the fact very few developers have the balls to add things like this to their game make it non-generic.
Edit; I feel I should add, I'm actually cool with a buff this impactful not being in the game at launch - developers need more data on their combat system and the way players will use it to put something with this kind of consequence in the game to start.
My argument here is about the number of spells a player can have, and also about having a UI that is set up to allow for players to have more. If the game launches with a UI that only accomidates 10 abilities, the game will never allow for more that.
If the game launches allowing players to have 10 abilities, but allowing players to have 30 hotbar slots if they want them, then over time they could add to the number of abilities players are able to have.
In order for players to have decisions (or illusions of such), there need to be options. If you only have one big nuke up, and something happens to make all big nukes better for a few seconds, it isn't much of a choice to cast it.
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
It didn't have layers, it had an if/then/else, and then moved on to another if/then/else when the first was resolved.
Going back to EQ2 wizards.
The spell Fusion, 3 minute recast timer, massive damage to three targets, but only if they are in a 5 meter, 75 degree cone in front of the caster.
In order to get the most out of casting this ability, you need to think first if the two abilities wizards have to increase the damage of any spell (increase to spell damage and 100% crit chance) were up or almost up. You also needed to consider if the Troubadour in your group was due to cast a buff on you to halve the recast timer of spells you cast for a short duration. You also needed to consider if there were two or three targets that are close enough to hit them all in the restricted area of effect of this spell. You then also need to consider if you can get to the location to cast this spell and back safely or not.
The if/then stament of whether to cast this one spell therefore has 4 other if/then statements contained within it that all need to be answered before the first if/then can be answered.
Just to make it interesting, not all of the above conditions need to be present in order for Fusion to be the best thing to cast next, and whether Ice Comet is available to cast will also alter how some of those individual conditions effect the decision.
That is a spell decision like an ogre/onion.
Those abilities are <generic buff 1> <generic buff 2> <AoE ability>. Nothing unique or meaningful in the slightest.
Name one buff in MMO's other than EQ2 that half the recast timer of any spells you cast while it is active.
In order to be generic, you should be able to name a buff for 50% or more of the MMO's out there.
I mean, it IS just a buff, but the implications of the specific buff and the fact very few developers have the balls to add things like this to their game make it non-generic.
What do you mean with "recast" time?
Do you mean the global cd, the normal spell cd, the normal cast time or what?
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
It didn't have layers, it had an if/then/else, and then moved on to another if/then/else when the first was resolved.
Going back to EQ2 wizards.
The spell Fusion, 3 minute recast timer, massive damage to three targets, but only if they are in a 5 meter, 75 degree cone in front of the caster.
In order to get the most out of casting this ability, you need to think first if the two abilities wizards have to increase the damage of any spell (increase to spell damage and 100% crit chance) were up or almost up. You also needed to consider if the Troubadour in your group was due to cast a buff on you to halve the recast timer of spells you cast for a short duration. You also needed to consider if there were two or three targets that are close enough to hit them all in the restricted area of effect of this spell. You then also need to consider if you can get to the location to cast this spell and back safely or not.
The if/then stament of whether to cast this one spell therefore has 4 other if/then statements contained within it that all need to be answered before the first if/then can be answered.
Just to make it interesting, not all of the above conditions need to be present in order for Fusion to be the best thing to cast next, and whether Ice Comet is available to cast will also alter how some of those individual conditions effect the decision.
That is a spell decision like an ogre/onion.
Those abilities are <generic buff 1> <generic buff 2> <AoE ability>. Nothing unique or meaningful in the slightest.
Name one buff in MMO's other than EQ2 that half the recast timer of any spells you cast while it is active.
In order to be generic, you should be able to name a buff for 50% or more of the MMO's out there.
I mean, it IS just a buff, but the implications of the specific buff and the fact very few developers have the balls to add things like this to their game make it non-generic.
What do you mean with "recast" time?
Do you mean the global cd, the normal spell cd, the normal cast time or what?
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
It didn't have layers, it had an if/then/else, and then moved on to another if/then/else when the first was resolved.
Going back to EQ2 wizards.
The spell Fusion, 3 minute recast timer, massive damage to three targets, but only if they are in a 5 meter, 75 degree cone in front of the caster.
In order to get the most out of casting this ability, you need to think first if the two abilities wizards have to increase the damage of any spell (increase to spell damage and 100% crit chance) were up or almost up. You also needed to consider if the Troubadour in your group was due to cast a buff on you to halve the recast timer of spells you cast for a short duration. You also needed to consider if there were two or three targets that are close enough to hit them all in the restricted area of effect of this spell. You then also need to consider if you can get to the location to cast this spell and back safely or not.
The if/then stament of whether to cast this one spell therefore has 4 other if/then statements contained within it that all need to be answered before the first if/then can be answered.
Just to make it interesting, not all of the above conditions need to be present in order for Fusion to be the best thing to cast next, and whether Ice Comet is available to cast will also alter how some of those individual conditions effect the decision.
That is a spell decision like an ogre/onion.
Those abilities are <generic buff 1> <generic buff 2> <AoE ability>. Nothing unique or meaningful in the slightest.
Name one buff in MMO's other than EQ2 that half the recast timer of any spells you cast while it is active.
In order to be generic, you should be able to name a buff for 50% or more of the MMO's out there.
I mean, it IS just a buff, but the implications of the specific buff and the fact very few developers have the balls to add things like this to their game make it non-generic.
What do you mean with "recast" time?
Do you mean the global cd, the normal spell cd, the normal cast time or what?
Recast = cooldown.
Wow has spells like cold snape (resets all cooldowns for frost nova, cone of cold, ice barrier and ice block) and others a long time ago. But mmorpgs nowadays have circled out smaller cooldowns for larger cast times. That lead to the replacement with spells that instead increase the cast speed.
@noaani How about you give us an actual example, what an "interesting combat" would be like in you opinion?
You are always talking about everything else being "boring", but that is pretty much only your own point of view, without trying to represent what you think would be a good combat system.
The WoW Icemage is one of the most fast pace classes, that i have ever seen (excluding the burst phase of the fury warrior/arcane mage). You have to handle 3 different procs, 2 short cds, 1 mdeium cd, 2 long cds and handle all of those together with your own resources (icelances).
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system.
Oh and on a side note, "choice" is very much an illusion in games. Literally every single mmorpg combat system I've tried can be boiled down to a bunch of "if/then" decisions when it comes to performing at end-game.
This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
It didn't have layers, it had an if/then/else, and then moved on to another if/then/else when the first was resolved.
Going back to EQ2 wizards.
The spell Fusion, 3 minute recast timer, massive damage to three targets, but only if they are in a 5 meter, 75 degree cone in front of the caster.
In order to get the most out of casting this ability, you need to think first if the two abilities wizards have to increase the damage of any spell (increase to spell damage and 100% crit chance) were up or almost up. You also needed to consider if the Troubadour in your group was due to cast a buff on you to halve the recast timer of spells you cast for a short duration. You also needed to consider if there were two or three targets that are close enough to hit them all in the restricted area of effect of this spell. You then also need to consider if you can get to the location to cast this spell and back safely or not.
The if/then stament of whether to cast this one spell therefore has 4 other if/then statements contained within it that all need to be answered before the first if/then can be answered.
Just to make it interesting, not all of the above conditions need to be present in order for Fusion to be the best thing to cast next, and whether Ice Comet is available to cast will also alter how some of those individual conditions effect the decision.
That is a spell decision like an ogre/onion.
Those abilities are <generic buff 1> <generic buff 2> <AoE ability>. Nothing unique or meaningful in the slightest.
Name one buff in MMO's other than EQ2 that half the recast timer of any spells you cast while it is active.
In order to be generic, you should be able to name a buff for 50% or more of the MMO's out there.
I mean, it IS just a buff, but the implications of the specific buff and the fact very few developers have the balls to add things like this to their game make it non-generic.
What do you mean with "recast" time?
Do you mean the global cd, the normal spell cd, the normal cast time or what?
Recast = cooldown.
Wow has spells like cold snape (resets all cooldowns for frost nova, cone of cold, ice barrier and ice block) and others a long time ago. But mmorpgs nowadays have circled out smaller cooldowns for larger cast times. That lead to the replacement with spells that instead increase the cast speed.
Yeah, abilities that alter the recast/cooldown on some abilities are somewhat common.
Its abilities that have this effect on any and all abilities that are rare
In the same way that ability alters the use of those four spells in WoW, that one buff alters every ability you have.
But yeah, developers have become adverse to adding in things they can't completely control. They would rather make classes with somewhat set rotations, and then add in ways where players can just speed those rotations up a bit.
I distinctly remember when Fusion came out. The other wizards in my guild were getting 8-10k damager per encounter with it, and I wss getting 90-110k damage with it. They couldn't figure out why until they noticed that I was hitting 3 mobs per cast, casting it twice as often as them, and critting with it every time.
MMO developers avoid situations like this now. Rather than looking at abilities like this as being a means for good players to excel, they look at it as a way where bad players could fall behind.
Comments
PvE tends to end up with that result for glass cannons for some reason. I'm more in favor of the PvP end of things and remember seeing good thieves and bad thieves. Good thieves were almost mystical. Bad thieves were just cheesy build leftovers.
Edit: I hope that AoC can make defensive abilities sought after in PvE like they are in PvP situations. It sucks when everything is DPS related. I was playing Classic WoW and nobody used polymorph or sap in dungeons like they used to. DPS was so good that people could just down everything and didn't need to worry about damage taken. Only place polymorph was used was during raid boss fights.
I hope for this too, and not just at end-game either. It astonishes me how many mmorpgs these days give you CC abilities during the levelling process and then not actually make you use them until max level. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, TERA, Aion and BDO all suffer from this problem and the result is that players reach end-game without a clue of how half their toolkit works. Then of course when they are put in situations where they need to use those CC abilities they don't know how to.
This all comes down to the developer. During the levelling process there needs to be regular occurrences where you are forced to use your utility and CC abilities so that by the time you reach max level you'll be comfortable with them and we get a much smoother transition into end-game content.
I remember a hunter in wow, who did not know at max lvl that his pet had a taunt on auto cast....
I did, earlier in this thread.
Interesting combat, to me, is when there are enough variables to the point where you know what you are casting, you know what you will cast next, but you don't necessarily yet know what you will cast after that.
Having 6 cooldowns to manage is not hard. I'm used to a class with three times that many (EQ2 wizard, well, EQ2 anything, to he honest), and they ranged from 6 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer depending on spec).
The thing that made EQ2 interesting that WoW doesn't have - and will never have - is that how you play your class can vary greatly by what other classes are in your group.
I couldn't tell you what the third spell I'd cast in a raid in EQ2 is, because there are too many variables. In order for those variables to exist, the class needs multiple options (I've been known to cast manaburn as my third spell in some raids - people that didn't know me were left thinking "wtf just happened, why did the mob go from 35% to dead instantly?").
In WoW, your third spell likely won't be the same spell as your first or second, and if you only have 6, that only leaves you four more to pick from, which isn't that much room to allow variables to have an effect. In EQ2, after casting two spells, I still had 15 or more to chose from, so the variables that existed had room to actually change things up.
I've said it before, any system in which you can list the order you will cast spells is a bad combat system. This is 100% true.
However, if those if/then statements go 3 or 4 deep for a single "choice", the illusion of choice is strong enough to be convincing.
It's when the developers stop at a single layer that it is obvious it is just an illusion of choice.
The trick then - to me - is to have multiple if/then/else statements be necessary to determine what the best spell to cast at any given point is.
Assuming you agree with that point, do you have any suggestions as to how that could be accomplished with fewer than 15 hotbar slots?
Because I don't.
Did you not read his example of a rotation, with multiple layers of it/thens? The example you gave has no if/thens at all. Your dozens and dozens of skills with no depth, where they will do one certain thing every time, without any flex, are not interesting.
It didn't have layers, it had an if/then/else, and then moved on to another if/then/else when the first was resolved.
Going back to EQ2 wizards.
The spell Fusion, 3 minute recast timer, massive damage to three targets, but only if they are in a 5 meter, 75 degree cone in front of the caster.
In order to get the most out of casting this ability, you need to think first if the two abilities wizards have to increase the damage of any spell (increase to spell damage and 100% crit chance) were up or almost up. You also needed to consider if the Troubadour in your group was due to cast a buff on you to halve the recast timer of spells you cast for a short duration. You also needed to consider if there were two or three targets that are close enough to hit them all in the restricted area of effect of this spell. You then also need to consider if you can get to the location to cast this spell and back safely or not.
The if/then stament of whether to cast this one spell therefore has 4 other if/then statements contained within it that all need to be answered before the first if/then can be answered.
Just to make it interesting, not all of the above conditions need to be present in order for Fusion to be the best thing to cast next, and whether Ice Comet is available to cast will also alter how some of those individual conditions effect the decision.
That is a spell decision like an ogre/onion.
Okay... i just read through a few EQ2 forum threads about wizard gameplay and spells. It seems like the EQ2 wizard was a mix of what the bard and mage will be in AoC, buffs/debuffs/dmg spells.
It is a bit confusing, because the main class mage is separated into 6 different classes (Wizard, Warlock, illusionist, coercer, conjurer, necromancer), but i will try to focus on the wizard as an example.
The funny thing is that there IS aparently a standard rotation!
1. Ice spears
2. Immolate/incinerate
3. Ball of fire
4. Firestorm
5. Dots
6. Rotate between immolate, BoF, FS and dots
Another "rotation":
1. Big Nuke (Ball of Incineration)
2. Stun
3. Shackle
4. Retreat a bit
5. Wait for next big nuke
6. Re-root
7. Repeat 6 and 7
1v2 rotation:
1. Root one mob
2. Stun 2. Mob
3. Root second mob
4. Kill second mob
5. Root first add
6. Kill them
Against more then 2:
Use a group root line
1. Root whole group
2. Burn down one
3. Reroot with single tagret root if necessary
4. Check timelimit on group root, recast if necessary
5. Kill off the mobs one at a time with nukes
To be honest, it seems to be a really fascinating gameplay model, even though it is highly convoluted with all the different spell lines and effects. It feels like they wanted to put too many spells into one class and just stuffed it with spells.
One class has 9 buffs, 14 single target spells, 5 AoEs, each of these spells has a spell line with differing levels of strength. That means that one class has at least 84 spells, if we assume that each spellline has at least 3 subordinate spells.
Those abilities are <generic buff 1> <generic buff 2> <AoE ability>. Nothing unique or meaningful in the slightest.
The way that game worked (works) is that rather than spells getting better as you level, you gain new, better versions of the same spell. Your cooldown was for the spell line, not the individual spell.
The reason they did this is because each spell could be upgraded in various ways - you had the standard version you got as you leveled, but crafters could make a very cheap upgrade to that. Mobs could also drop a version that was an upgrade to the cheap player made one, but then there was also a player made version that was significantly more expensive - and thus better. Then there was the final version (for most spells), that was a very rare drop and many players never saw any of these for there class.
The reason spells were replaced rather than upgraded was to keep this spell upgrading ecosystem relevant for the whole game.
It was often the case that a new spell was less effective than an upgraded spell, but there was never a time you would have use for two spells of the same spell line. Once you upgraded a new spell to be better than it's older version, you would never have a use for that older version again.
As to the rotations you mentioned... the first is a wizard just dialling it in. There is no mention of the biggsst hitters (Ice Comet or it's AoE variant, Fusion or Manaburn if you have it). There is also no mention of what to do differently if you have a Troubador, nor any mention of when to use you self buffs or when you may want to hold off using them.
The rest of the rotations are all solo play only - no wizard worth a shit would cast a root in group or raid play as any damage the mob took had a chance to break the root. A wizard could root a mob and hold it until a big nuke was ready, cast that nuke and then recast the root in order to solo kill any mob in the game that could be rooted (eventually), but if anyone else is present and theydeal damage to the mob, they risk breaking the root at a time when there may not be one ready to recast on the target. Should this happen, the wizard is dead, without question.
And yeah, 9 buffs, 14 single target and 5 AoE sounds good to me.
In order to be generic, you should be able to name a buff for 50% or more of the MMO's out there.
I mean, it IS just a buff, but the implications of the specific buff and the fact very few developers have the balls to add things like this to their game make it non-generic.
Edit; I feel I should add, I'm actually cool with a buff this impactful not being in the game at launch - developers need more data on their combat system and the way players will use it to put something with this kind of consequence in the game to start.
My argument here is about the number of spells a player can have, and also about having a UI that is set up to allow for players to have more. If the game launches with a UI that only accomidates 10 abilities, the game will never allow for more that.
If the game launches allowing players to have 10 abilities, but allowing players to have 30 hotbar slots if they want them, then over time they could add to the number of abilities players are able to have.
In order for players to have decisions (or illusions of such), there need to be options. If you only have one big nuke up, and something happens to make all big nukes better for a few seconds, it isn't much of a choice to cast it.
What do you mean with "recast" time?
Do you mean the global cd, the normal spell cd, the normal cast time or what?
Recast = cooldown.
Wow has spells like cold snape (resets all cooldowns for frost nova, cone of cold, ice barrier and ice block) and others a long time ago. But mmorpgs nowadays have circled out smaller cooldowns for larger cast times. That lead to the replacement with spells that instead increase the cast speed.
Its abilities that have this effect on any and all abilities that are rare
In the same way that ability alters the use of those four spells in WoW, that one buff alters every ability you have.
But yeah, developers have become adverse to adding in things they can't completely control. They would rather make classes with somewhat set rotations, and then add in ways where players can just speed those rotations up a bit.
I distinctly remember when Fusion came out. The other wizards in my guild were getting 8-10k damager per encounter with it, and I wss getting 90-110k damage with it. They couldn't figure out why until they noticed that I was hitting 3 mobs per cast, casting it twice as often as them, and critting with it every time.
MMO developers avoid situations like this now. Rather than looking at abilities like this as being a means for good players to excel, they look at it as a way where bad players could fall behind.
This is why I consider MMO combat so boring now.