You should read the three current threads on this topic.
Outside of WoW, combat trackers are used in constructive ways far more than in toxic ways.
As a raid leader and recruiter, I've used combat trackers to help literally hundreds of players over almost a half dozen games. I've also peraonally used them to point out no less than 20 bugs/oversights to developers of those games, all of which were then fixed.
I've kicked exactly one person from a raid or group in almost 20 years, and that wasn't because of something I needed a combat tracker to tell me.
So many people here don't even seem to realize that nearly all of the people they've grouped with across any multiplayer game has probably been using a combat tracker.
what I personally don't like about dps meter is that whenever I use it I don't feel like I am fighting bosses, rather I feel like I am competing with other players and that ruins an immersion for me
what I personally don't like about dps meter is that whenever I use it I don't feel like I am fighting bosses, rather I feel like I am competing with other players and that ruins an immersion for me
When I use it I am fighting the encounter. I don't usually even look at it until the end of the evening. The only exception to that is if something is going wrong when it shouldn't be. Then I'll try and figure it out.
I personlly think anyone using an overlay with their combat tracker is doing it wrong. But I also think they are welcome to use it wrong if they wish.
0
Options
AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Now hear me out before you instantly start replying that i'm a toxic elitist who just wants to call others bad. This is an mmorpg. The dungeons are attuned for 8 players, and raids can go up to 40 players. You're saying that meters are toxic and shouldn't be desired at all. But how are you supposed to find the players that could be better helped to learn their class? Example: You're in a 40 man raid that your guild has been up against for about 3-4 weeks and you cant get any progress done on it. Something is wrong, and you cant figure it out. Lets say suddenly you had meters, and you can now see that a handful of your 40 players needed some guidance with their class. With no meters, this would be impossible to figure out. Without meters we're expected to bash our head against a brick wall for god knows how long until people start leaving or quitting the progression due to frustration. I believe the decision to not include meters because it "promotes a toxic elitist behavior" is unjustified and shouldn't be left to the decision of just a couple people. I find that meters can help improve the game by helping your group improve and grow together, which will in return help people enjoy the game to its fullest. If you don't add meters to the game itself, please consider making addons or plugins for meters a non-bannable offense at the very least.
Haha lol
Literally the first time I've ever heard of someone using a DPS metre to "help a handful of players that need guidance with their class".
I can already see you hovering over the kick button.
That really isn't all that uncommon in my experience, at least in guild groups.
Its been said before, it will be said again, meters are a tool. Its the person using them that is toxic or unable to infer the right information, not the instrument providing objective data.
Meters will exist, whether provided in game or by a 3rd party.
Personally, I think meters are a good thing. I never got into raiding in WoW, and have heard they have been used to toxic effect in that game. That doesn't mean they will be used for toxic reasons in Ashes, especially if Ashes doesn't have a toxic community.
However, I can only speak for my own experience and how I have used meters in the past. In my near decade of playing MMOs, most of which involved raiding and combat trackers/dps meters, I can count on one hand how many times I have been kicked or kicked another player due to information from a dps meter or combat tracker.
Usually the way I have seen them used is by guilds to find out who needs some 1 on 1 attention to help them improve. They have also been used to great effect within a raid to take stock if someone isn't meeting an objective. The information can be used to rearrange players tasks midraid so the one struggling instead does something they are more comfortable with and a more competent player handles the task the other was assigned but couldn't carry out.
Heck, in small group pve content I use dps meters. When I glance at a meter and see someone is struggling with their dps, my first reaction isn't to kick. Its gives me the information I need to break out my more expensive raid consumables or swap to another character that is more geared or I'm more practiced with to provide the extra edge needed to carry though dps checks that would have been failed otherwise.
Simply put, keep in mind that dps meters/combat trackers are a tool. For every toxic player that used that tool to be toxic, there are probably just as many other players that used that tool to help another player.
That really isn't all that uncommon in my experience, at least in guild groups.
I think that's another part of the difference of perspectives, most people against aren't referring to guild groups, where social dynamics and communication have already been established, but to Pugs, or when their play group is only large enough to act as mercenaries or fill ins to larger groups.
0
Options
Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
See, this is why it is more important to talk about combat trackers than DPS meters.
A combat tracker will tell you how is healing, and how much. If you have two healers in your group, and one is doing all the healing and some DPS/debuffing/what ever else healers do, and the other is doing nothing, then you know the group is pulling dead weight. Without a combat tracker, all you can do is look at the tank that is not dying and know that at least one of the healers is doing their job.
As to whether you kick the healer, that is 100% dependent on the groups leader. I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't group with that same healer again.
Any group leader in any game that looks at a combat tracker to find the DPS of a non-DPS class really won't be leading groups for very long in a game that forces you to find your own group members.
The important thing to note here is that the decision the group leader makes is completely removed from whether they have a combat tracker or not, almost all of the time. In the absence of objective data (which all a combat tracker does is provide objective data) players will make decisions based on subjective data. Subjective data has a habit of being factually incorrect though.
If a particular group leader was the kind of person that would kick someone from a group for poor DPS, it would surely be better that they kicked the player for actual low DPS rather than simply because they think the DPS might be low. I mean, a player that will kick someone from a group will do it regardless of which of these two things are happening - imo it is always better if it is based on objective data.
That really isn't all that uncommon in my experience, at least in guild groups.
I think that's another part of the difference of perspectives, most people against aren't referring to guild groups, where social dynamics and communication have already been established, but to Pugs, or when their play group is only large enough to act as mercenaries or fill ins to larger groups.
I agree, and this is why my suggestion for one in Ashes has been based on the idea of restricting it to being used within the users guild.
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
So, you're cool if I join your group as the healer, even if I am playing a build that doesn't have any heals?
Most games with the amount of class flexibility that Ashes have provide players playing classes that would be considered healers to not actually have any heals selected.
If you are fine with me playing the game the way I want to play the game, then it stands to reason that you are fine with me fulfilling the role of the only healer in your group, but with a build that has no heals - because that is how I want to play the game.
As soon as you join up to play with others, you are saying that it is ok for them to scrutinize the way you play - because at that point, the way you play directly effects the way they play.
what I personally don't like about dps meter is that whenever I use it I don't feel like I am fighting bosses, rather I feel like I am competing with other players and that ruins an immersion for me
When I use it I am fighting the encounter. I don't usually even look at it until the end of the evening. The only exception to that is if something is going wrong when it shouldn't be. Then I'll try and figure it out.
I personlly think anyone using an overlay with their combat tracker is doing it wrong. But I also think they are welcome to use it wrong if they wish.
Sure if combat trackers disabled overlay function then it would be nice, but since that option exists there will be some people who will use it, however even with overlay function disabled it is not hard to check it after fight ends, so there still will exists players who will call out what dps player did which induces the competitive atmosphere.
I mean combat trackers can be nice tool if used in a certain way, but no one can forbid the usage of it in different way. Which is why I think combat trackers should be polished so that it didn't ruin the experience of some part of the playerbase.
The way you describe your usage of dps meter means that they are not necessary just an convenience tool which I agree. However, the excessive and abusive usage is the problem, which should be fixed.
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
what I personally don't like about dps meter is that whenever I use it I don't feel like I am fighting bosses, rather I feel like I am competing with other players and that ruins an immersion for me
When I use it I am fighting the encounter. I don't usually even look at it until the end of the evening. The only exception to that is if something is going wrong when it shouldn't be. Then I'll try and figure it out.
I personlly think anyone using an overlay with their combat tracker is doing it wrong. But I also think they are welcome to use it wrong if they wish.
Sure if combat trackers disabled overlay function then it would be nice, but since that option exists there will be some people who will use it, however even with overlay function disabled it is not hard to check it after fight ends, so there still will exists players who will call out what dps player did which induces the competitive atmosphere.
I mean combat trackers can be nice tool if used in a certain way, but no one can forbid the usage of it in different way. Which is why I think combat trackers should be polished so that it didn't ruin the experience of some part of the playerbase.
The way you describe your usage of dps meter means that they are not necessary just an convenience tool which I agree. However, the excessive and abusive usage is the problem, which should be fixed.
There is nothing wrong with a competitive atmosphere within a cooperative game as far as I am concerned.
Friendly competition is good, and if that competition is not friendly, that is a good sign to find a new guild (or a new pick up raid).
People don't misuse the tracker as much as they misuse the data they receive from it. However, these people will misuse data regardless of where they get that data, and regardless of whether that data is objective (from a combat tracker) or subjective (from their observations or what others have told them).
There is no way to prevent subjective data, and as long as subjective data exists, it will be misused in place of objective data.
All of that said, I totally agree that there are things that can be done to reduce how often this data is misused. To me, the main way to do this is to limit a combat trackers effectiveness to only those in the same guild as the user of the combat tracker. This means that if you and I are in different guilds, and I am running a tracker, I get no information at all about you. However, should you join my guild, I then have everything you do (while we are in the same group/raid) that I can go over.
This will limit any possible cases of misuse of a combat tracker to only people in the same guild - and generally speaking, people in the same guild tend to be a lot less abusive towards each other. Sadly, literally the only way this will happen is if Intrepid implement it in to the game themselves, which is why that is what I am asking for.
This won't stop people being dicks in pick up groups in Ashes, as they will still have subjective data. All it will do is show people that the issue was not the combat trackers it was the people.
What this SHOULD be telling fans of PvE End Game Raiding is the same thing they've been ignoring for years: DPS meters only serve to divide players in the name of compulsive efficiency.
I agree with some of your points, but not this one.
Top end raiders will push for efficiency regardless of the ability to make use of a combat tracker.
If anything is dividing players in relation to this, it is players themselves, some want that efficiency, some don't care about it.
In that regard, a combat tracker can be viewed as little more than a sorting hat. It will tell you instantly which of the two groups a person belongs to. It can then also be a tool to ease the transition from not caring about efficiency to caring about it, for those that were not aware that there was that whole other realm of gameplay above the one in which new players naturally find themselves in when joining an MMO for the first time.
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Yes. Play how you want to. If my healer isn't healing, too bad, I'll solo it with potions.. Not cry about it
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Sure, and you're well within your rights to be sick of it, like most weak minded people. I love it though, it makes me play better when other people aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Makes the game more challenging and I have to play better to compensate for them. Although I will admit that my back does ache sometimes from always being such a good team carry and soloing everything, carrying the rest of the team on my back.
But that's gym life my dude, you can stick to the little easy weights. I will do the big weights and retain all my muscle mass and then steal your wife.
I get the need to combat trackers for top raiders PvE. Now, AoC being a PvP game, won't have/can't have dedicated characters that will function in PvE content.
What I mean is that the possibility of being ganked by a rival guild is always there, which means the best possible build for DPS might not be the best strategy. this means that you will need to lower DPS to have other tools to deal with enemies.
About combat trackers
Now, on the other hand, I also feel that Combat Trackers could potentially stop development of new strategies. Let's say you know X strategy is the best to defeat Y content. If you know it, for sure, because statistics back you up, what is the incentive to try new things?
I've been in many guilds when we don't do content. We get a link, a guide, we learn the strat, download the appropriate add on, get the config needed, wait for the add on to tell me what to do, and do it.
I don't think this is fun content.
Additional add ons
My issue with Combat Trackers is ALL the additional baggage it comes with it. Specially the ones that "detect" boss moves.
So, instead of playing a game, you just wait for the pop up telling you what is coming. Yeah yeah, this won't have for the TOP guilds, but it will trickle down too all other guilds and people experiencing content. Eventually even top guilds use it, it's just easier to look at the screen than the game itself.
Learning
There will be guides on how to best play your class, that's a given. But if those ideas are backup by data, the only way to improve on them, it's getting more DPS.
I feel it's just way too artificial, that's mostly my opinion. I've used DPS, and they helped me, but I think we are able to find other ways to improve.
Ashes is PvP
So, will combat trackers help on this? PvP is not a static fight, how do people use Combat Trackers with PVP? Honest question
0
Options
mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Ashes is PvP
So, will combat trackers help on this? PvP is not a static fight, how do people use Combat Trackers with PVP? Honest question
You can use it to help optimize your build. Yes, there are a lot more factors that can affect your damage in pvp but you can still use it to get an idea of how much damage a build will do which gives you something you can use to compare different builds.
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Yes. Play how you want to. If my healer isn't healing, too bad, I'll solo it with potions.. Not cry about it
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Sure, and you're well within your rights to be sick of it, like most weak minded people. I love it though, it makes me play better when other people aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Makes the game more challenging and I have to play better to compensate for them. Although I will admit that my back does ache sometimes from always being such a good team carry and soloing everything, carrying the rest of the team on my back.
But that's gym life my dude, you can stick to the little easy weights. I will do the big weights and retain all my muscle mass and then steal your wife.
Talk about “doing the big weights” yet you’re doing content so easy it doesn’t even require a healer? Uh huh.
You wanna give out free carries like candy? Be my guest. I refuse to be a doormat when someone literally makes a point to say they won’t change their behavior while knowing it’s dragging everyone else down. A team is only as strong as its weakest link.
Yeah, if you can use potions to heal up, you aren't doing difficult content in the least. Even in games where skill is weighted more heavily than gear based stats, there is only so far you can go by design of the game. Otherwise you aren't playing the content as originally intended. Like going back in when you're 40 levels above the content.
Many of the things you bring up are things that have been addressed in the many threads on this topic over the years.
I'm not saying that you should have looked for them and found them (I hate searching through the archive section of these forums as much as anyone), I'm only saying it so that you know the subjects have already been debated.
More debate is always good, and there is every chance you may bring up a point that no one else has if you do fully engage in such debate. Just be aware that most of the replies to your debates will be fully formed opinions already, rather than opinions that are still being formed and shaped during any potential debate.
That said, I do hope you continue the discussion further. Discussion and debate is always good.
About combat trackers
Now, on the other hand, I also feel that Combat Trackers could potentially stop development of new strategies. Let's say you know X strategy is the best to defeat Y content. If you know it, for sure, because statistics back you up, what is the incentive to try new things?
I've been in many guilds when we don't do content. We get a link, a guide, we learn the strat, download the appropriate add on, get the config needed, wait for the add on to tell me what to do, and do it.
I don't think this is fun content.
Those guilds were all in WoW.
The reason I can say this is because no other MMO has had that level of mod available to it, as no other MMO has provided the API hooks that Blizzard do.
These kinds of things aren't combat trackers, they are their own thing. No one is asking for this kind of thing in any game.
If this is your biggest fear with a combat tracker in Ashes, then you can rest at ease - neither of the two logical outcomes here (trackers already in development now, or Intrepid adding one to the game) will see this as a possible result.
Additional add ons
My issue with Combat Trackers is ALL the additional baggage it comes with it. Specially the ones that "detect" boss moves.
So, instead of playing a game, you just wait for the pop up telling you what is coming. Yeah yeah, this won't have for the TOP guilds, but it will trickle down too all other guilds and people experiencing content. Eventually even top guilds use it, it's just easier to look at the screen than the game itself.
Again, this is ONLY a WoW thing.
This isn't a result of a combat tracker, and so again if this is your biggest issue, you need not be concerned.
Learning
There will be guides on how to best play your class, that's a given. But if those ideas are backup by data, the only way to improve on them, it's getting more DPS.
I feel it's just way too artificial, that's mostly my opinion. I've used DPS, and they helped me, but I think we are able to find other ways to improve.
MMO combat can be broken down in to two things - taking hit points off enemies, and keeping hit points in friends.
Everything done in combat is done to further one of these two goals. Tanks take the focus of enemies because they have the most means of reducing an incoming hit (armor, shields etc) and so them being hit reduces the damage that would have happened if that same attack had have instead struck a mage. Debuffs on mobs either make the more susceptible to attacks or make their attacks less effective (or slower, sometimes). Buffs on friends make them less susceptible to incoming damage, or able to dish out more outgoing damage. We CC enemies to prevent them from attacking our friends, and thus reducing our friends hit points.
Everything comes back to those two basics of MMO combat - taking hit points off enemies, and keeping hit points in friends.
No matter which way you want to go about doing either of these two things, a combat tracker can help you. If you want to see if a fire debuff is better to take as a mage than a fire nuke, a combat tracker can help you work that out. If you want to alter your DPS build so that it is able to survive a harder hit, a combat tracker can help you work that out. If you want to know how much damage CC'ing a specific mob prevents, a combat tracker can help you work that out.
Literally anything you want to know about combat in an MMO, a combat tracker can help you work out. Thing is, using a combat tracker to this kind of advantage is a skill in and of itself, one that not every player knows how to do.
This is why some people look at combat trackers as nothing more than DPS meters - these people are simply unable to work out how to use a combat tracker for anything more than that basic function (note, this is not people calling combat trackers DPS meters - that is just common nomenclature, I'm talking about the people that think this is all they do).
So, will combat trackers help on this? PvP is not a static fight, how do people use Combat Trackers with PVP? Honest question
Combat trackers can do several things.
Using the above notion about how combat is only ever about taking hit points off enemies or keeping hit points in friends, a combat tracker can assist you in working out the best way to do which ever one of those two things you want to be doing, or what ever mix of the two you are after. It won't tell you what the best way to build a given class is, nor will it tell you how to improve a specific aspect of a build. What it will do, is give you objective to assess a potential change in a build that you have thought of making, so that you can try that build and either accept or reject it with confidence sooner.
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Yes. Play how you want to. If my healer isn't healing, too bad, I'll solo it with potions.. Not cry about it
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Sure, and you're well within your rights to be sick of it, like most weak minded people. I love it though, it makes me play better when other people aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Makes the game more challenging and I have to play better to compensate for them. Although I will admit that my back does ache sometimes from always being such a good team carry and soloing everything, carrying the rest of the team on my back.
But that's gym life my dude, you can stick to the little easy weights. I will do the big weights and retain all my muscle mass and then steal your wife.
Talk about “doing the big weights” yet you’re doing content so easy it doesn’t even require a healer? Uh huh.
You wanna give out free carries like candy? Be my guest. I refuse to be a doormat when someone literally makes a point to say they won’t change their behavior while knowing it’s dragging everyone else down. A team is only as strong as its weakest link.
Unless the team has someone to smash through everything so that the weak links don't matter 🤷🏼♂️
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Yes. Play how you want to. If my healer isn't healing, too bad, I'll solo it with potions.. Not cry about it
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Sure, and you're well within your rights to be sick of it, like most weak minded people. I love it though, it makes me play better when other people aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Makes the game more challenging and I have to play better to compensate for them. Although I will admit that my back does ache sometimes from always being such a good team carry and soloing everything, carrying the rest of the team on my back.
But that's gym life my dude, you can stick to the little easy weights. I will do the big weights and retain all my muscle mass and then steal your wife.
Talk about “doing the big weights” yet you’re doing content so easy it doesn’t even require a healer? Uh huh.
You wanna give out free carries like candy? Be my guest. I refuse to be a doormat when someone literally makes a point to say they won’t change their behavior while knowing it’s dragging everyone else down. A team is only as strong as its weakest link.
Unless the team has someone to smash through everything so that the weak links don't matter 🤷🏼♂️
Once again, you’re not doing difficult content if it can be cleared by one person.
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Yes. Play how you want to. If my healer isn't healing, too bad, I'll solo it with potions.. Not cry about it
So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Sure, and you're well within your rights to be sick of it, like most weak minded people. I love it though, it makes me play better when other people aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Makes the game more challenging and I have to play better to compensate for them. Although I will admit that my back does ache sometimes from always being such a good team carry and soloing everything, carrying the rest of the team on my back.
But that's gym life my dude, you can stick to the little easy weights. I will do the big weights and retain all my muscle mass and then steal your wife.
Talk about “doing the big weights” yet you’re doing content so easy it doesn’t even require a healer? Uh huh.
You wanna give out free carries like candy? Be my guest. I refuse to be a doormat when someone literally makes a point to say they won’t change their behavior while knowing it’s dragging everyone else down. A team is only as strong as its weakest link.
Unless the team has someone to smash through everything so that the weak links don't matter 🤷🏼♂️
The type of content you are talking about and the type of content we are asking for combat trackers for are vastly different.
In raids, if a player makes the wrong move, the raid wipes. It doesn't matter how many people we have to "smash through" the content - you can't smash through something that has an attack that deals unmitigated, unavoidable damage to you based on a percentage of your total hit points, and that percentage is 500%.
This is the kind of attacks raid content have, and they only use them when someone in the raid does something wrong. Thus, you can't out gear these attacks, you can't out muscle these attacks, you can't smash through these attacks. All you can do is get things right.
In these situations, a weak link kills raids.
0
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
so just found the old thread and that went up to 14 pages. will we beat it or will it die out like last time
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Comments
You should read the three current threads on this topic.
Outside of WoW, combat trackers are used in constructive ways far more than in toxic ways.
As a raid leader and recruiter, I've used combat trackers to help literally hundreds of players over almost a half dozen games. I've also peraonally used them to point out no less than 20 bugs/oversights to developers of those games, all of which were then fixed.
I've kicked exactly one person from a raid or group in almost 20 years, and that wasn't because of something I needed a combat tracker to tell me.
When I use it I am fighting the encounter. I don't usually even look at it until the end of the evening. The only exception to that is if something is going wrong when it shouldn't be. Then I'll try and figure it out.
I personlly think anyone using an overlay with their combat tracker is doing it wrong. But I also think they are welcome to use it wrong if they wish.
Meters will exist, whether provided in game or by a 3rd party.
Personally, I think meters are a good thing. I never got into raiding in WoW, and have heard they have been used to toxic effect in that game. That doesn't mean they will be used for toxic reasons in Ashes, especially if Ashes doesn't have a toxic community.
However, I can only speak for my own experience and how I have used meters in the past. In my near decade of playing MMOs, most of which involved raiding and combat trackers/dps meters, I can count on one hand how many times I have been kicked or kicked another player due to information from a dps meter or combat tracker.
Usually the way I have seen them used is by guilds to find out who needs some 1 on 1 attention to help them improve. They have also been used to great effect within a raid to take stock if someone isn't meeting an objective. The information can be used to rearrange players tasks midraid so the one struggling instead does something they are more comfortable with and a more competent player handles the task the other was assigned but couldn't carry out.
Heck, in small group pve content I use dps meters. When I glance at a meter and see someone is struggling with their dps, my first reaction isn't to kick. Its gives me the information I need to break out my more expensive raid consumables or swap to another character that is more geared or I'm more practiced with to provide the extra edge needed to carry though dps checks that would have been failed otherwise.
Simply put, keep in mind that dps meters/combat trackers are a tool. For every toxic player that used that tool to be toxic, there are probably just as many other players that used that tool to help another player.
I think that's another part of the difference of perspectives, most people against aren't referring to guild groups, where social dynamics and communication have already been established, but to Pugs, or when their play group is only large enough to act as mercenaries or fill ins to larger groups.
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.
Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.
If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.
See, this is why it is more important to talk about combat trackers than DPS meters.
A combat tracker will tell you how is healing, and how much. If you have two healers in your group, and one is doing all the healing and some DPS/debuffing/what ever else healers do, and the other is doing nothing, then you know the group is pulling dead weight. Without a combat tracker, all you can do is look at the tank that is not dying and know that at least one of the healers is doing their job.
As to whether you kick the healer, that is 100% dependent on the groups leader. I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't group with that same healer again.
Any group leader in any game that looks at a combat tracker to find the DPS of a non-DPS class really won't be leading groups for very long in a game that forces you to find your own group members.
The important thing to note here is that the decision the group leader makes is completely removed from whether they have a combat tracker or not, almost all of the time. In the absence of objective data (which all a combat tracker does is provide objective data) players will make decisions based on subjective data. Subjective data has a habit of being factually incorrect though.
If a particular group leader was the kind of person that would kick someone from a group for poor DPS, it would surely be better that they kicked the player for actual low DPS rather than simply because they think the DPS might be low. I mean, a player that will kick someone from a group will do it regardless of which of these two things are happening - imo it is always better if it is based on objective data. I agree, and this is why my suggestion for one in Ashes has been based on the idea of restricting it to being used within the users guild. So, you're cool if I join your group as the healer, even if I am playing a build that doesn't have any heals?
Most games with the amount of class flexibility that Ashes have provide players playing classes that would be considered healers to not actually have any heals selected.
If you are fine with me playing the game the way I want to play the game, then it stands to reason that you are fine with me fulfilling the role of the only healer in your group, but with a build that has no heals - because that is how I want to play the game.
As soon as you join up to play with others, you are saying that it is ok for them to scrutinize the way you play - because at that point, the way you play directly effects the way they play.
Sure if combat trackers disabled overlay function then it would be nice, but since that option exists there will be some people who will use it, however even with overlay function disabled it is not hard to check it after fight ends, so there still will exists players who will call out what dps player did which induces the competitive atmosphere.
I mean combat trackers can be nice tool if used in a certain way, but no one can forbid the usage of it in different way. Which is why I think combat trackers should be polished so that it didn't ruin the experience of some part of the playerbase.
The way you describe your usage of dps meter means that they are not necessary just an convenience tool which I agree. However, the excessive and abusive usage is the problem, which should be fixed.
"Play how you want" ceases to be a viable excuse once you enter group play. You are obligated to the group you're joining to play in a way that benefits the group, or you better be paying them for the carry.
Tbh I'm really sick of hearing "I should get to play however I want" from people who are entirely aware they're bringing groups down. I've seen archers basic attacking and doing nothing else. I've seen healers doing nothing but pressing their burst heal until they run out of resources. I've seen tanks get aggro then run around in circles "kiting" unavoidable damage.
I am not nearly so slow to kick someone who is told they need to pull their weight and proceeds to throw out "I play how I want" as an excuse for poor group play.
Friendly competition is good, and if that competition is not friendly, that is a good sign to find a new guild (or a new pick up raid).
People don't misuse the tracker as much as they misuse the data they receive from it. However, these people will misuse data regardless of where they get that data, and regardless of whether that data is objective (from a combat tracker) or subjective (from their observations or what others have told them).
There is no way to prevent subjective data, and as long as subjective data exists, it will be misused in place of objective data.
All of that said, I totally agree that there are things that can be done to reduce how often this data is misused. To me, the main way to do this is to limit a combat trackers effectiveness to only those in the same guild as the user of the combat tracker. This means that if you and I are in different guilds, and I am running a tracker, I get no information at all about you. However, should you join my guild, I then have everything you do (while we are in the same group/raid) that I can go over.
This will limit any possible cases of misuse of a combat tracker to only people in the same guild - and generally speaking, people in the same guild tend to be a lot less abusive towards each other. Sadly, literally the only way this will happen is if Intrepid implement it in to the game themselves, which is why that is what I am asking for.
This won't stop people being dicks in pick up groups in Ashes, as they will still have subjective data. All it will do is show people that the issue was not the combat trackers it was the people.
Top end raiders will push for efficiency regardless of the ability to make use of a combat tracker.
If anything is dividing players in relation to this, it is players themselves, some want that efficiency, some don't care about it.
In that regard, a combat tracker can be viewed as little more than a sorting hat. It will tell you instantly which of the two groups a person belongs to. It can then also be a tool to ease the transition from not caring about efficiency to caring about it, for those that were not aware that there was that whole other realm of gameplay above the one in which new players naturally find themselves in when joining an MMO for the first time.
Yes. Play how you want to. If my healer isn't healing, too bad, I'll solo it with potions.. Not cry about it
Sure, and you're well within your rights to be sick of it, like most weak minded people. I love it though, it makes me play better when other people aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Makes the game more challenging and I have to play better to compensate for them. Although I will admit that my back does ache sometimes from always being such a good team carry and soloing everything, carrying the rest of the team on my back.
But that's gym life my dude, you can stick to the little easy weights. I will do the big weights and retain all my muscle mass and then steal your wife.
I mean, sure, have your opinions on combat trackers and such, but at least look at them from different use cases.
I get the need to combat trackers for top raiders PvE. Now, AoC being a PvP game, won't have/can't have dedicated characters that will function in PvE content.
What I mean is that the possibility of being ganked by a rival guild is always there, which means the best possible build for DPS might not be the best strategy. this means that you will need to lower DPS to have other tools to deal with enemies.
About combat trackers
Now, on the other hand, I also feel that Combat Trackers could potentially stop development of new strategies. Let's say you know X strategy is the best to defeat Y content. If you know it, for sure, because statistics back you up, what is the incentive to try new things?
I've been in many guilds when we don't do content. We get a link, a guide, we learn the strat, download the appropriate add on, get the config needed, wait for the add on to tell me what to do, and do it.
I don't think this is fun content.
Additional add ons
My issue with Combat Trackers is ALL the additional baggage it comes with it. Specially the ones that "detect" boss moves.
So, instead of playing a game, you just wait for the pop up telling you what is coming. Yeah yeah, this won't have for the TOP guilds, but it will trickle down too all other guilds and people experiencing content. Eventually even top guilds use it, it's just easier to look at the screen than the game itself.
Learning
There will be guides on how to best play your class, that's a given. But if those ideas are backup by data, the only way to improve on them, it's getting more DPS.
I feel it's just way too artificial, that's mostly my opinion. I've used DPS, and they helped me, but I think we are able to find other ways to improve.
Ashes is PvP
So, will combat trackers help on this? PvP is not a static fight, how do people use Combat Trackers with PVP? Honest question
You can use it to help optimize your build. Yes, there are a lot more factors that can affect your damage in pvp but you can still use it to get an idea of how much damage a build will do which gives you something you can use to compare different builds.
Talk about “doing the big weights” yet you’re doing content so easy it doesn’t even require a healer? Uh huh.
You wanna give out free carries like candy? Be my guest. I refuse to be a doormat when someone literally makes a point to say they won’t change their behavior while knowing it’s dragging everyone else down. A team is only as strong as its weakest link.
Many of the things you bring up are things that have been addressed in the many threads on this topic over the years.
I'm not saying that you should have looked for them and found them (I hate searching through the archive section of these forums as much as anyone), I'm only saying it so that you know the subjects have already been debated.
More debate is always good, and there is every chance you may bring up a point that no one else has if you do fully engage in such debate. Just be aware that most of the replies to your debates will be fully formed opinions already, rather than opinions that are still being formed and shaped during any potential debate.
That said, I do hope you continue the discussion further. Discussion and debate is always good. Those guilds were all in WoW.
The reason I can say this is because no other MMO has had that level of mod available to it, as no other MMO has provided the API hooks that Blizzard do.
These kinds of things aren't combat trackers, they are their own thing. No one is asking for this kind of thing in any game.
If this is your biggest fear with a combat tracker in Ashes, then you can rest at ease - neither of the two logical outcomes here (trackers already in development now, or Intrepid adding one to the game) will see this as a possible result.
Again, this is ONLY a WoW thing.
This isn't a result of a combat tracker, and so again if this is your biggest issue, you need not be concerned.
MMO combat can be broken down in to two things - taking hit points off enemies, and keeping hit points in friends.
Everything done in combat is done to further one of these two goals. Tanks take the focus of enemies because they have the most means of reducing an incoming hit (armor, shields etc) and so them being hit reduces the damage that would have happened if that same attack had have instead struck a mage. Debuffs on mobs either make the more susceptible to attacks or make their attacks less effective (or slower, sometimes). Buffs on friends make them less susceptible to incoming damage, or able to dish out more outgoing damage. We CC enemies to prevent them from attacking our friends, and thus reducing our friends hit points.
Everything comes back to those two basics of MMO combat - taking hit points off enemies, and keeping hit points in friends.
No matter which way you want to go about doing either of these two things, a combat tracker can help you. If you want to see if a fire debuff is better to take as a mage than a fire nuke, a combat tracker can help you work that out. If you want to alter your DPS build so that it is able to survive a harder hit, a combat tracker can help you work that out. If you want to know how much damage CC'ing a specific mob prevents, a combat tracker can help you work that out.
Literally anything you want to know about combat in an MMO, a combat tracker can help you work out. Thing is, using a combat tracker to this kind of advantage is a skill in and of itself, one that not every player knows how to do.
This is why some people look at combat trackers as nothing more than DPS meters - these people are simply unable to work out how to use a combat tracker for anything more than that basic function (note, this is not people calling combat trackers DPS meters - that is just common nomenclature, I'm talking about the people that think this is all they do). Combat trackers can do several things.
Using the above notion about how combat is only ever about taking hit points off enemies or keeping hit points in friends, a combat tracker can assist you in working out the best way to do which ever one of those two things you want to be doing, or what ever mix of the two you are after. It won't tell you what the best way to build a given class is, nor will it tell you how to improve a specific aspect of a build. What it will do, is give you objective to assess a potential change in a build that you have thought of making, so that you can try that build and either accept or reject it with confidence sooner.
Unless the team has someone to smash through everything so that the weak links don't matter 🤷🏼♂️
Once again, you’re not doing difficult content if it can be cleared by one person.
The type of content you are talking about and the type of content we are asking for combat trackers for are vastly different.
In raids, if a player makes the wrong move, the raid wipes. It doesn't matter how many people we have to "smash through" the content - you can't smash through something that has an attack that deals unmitigated, unavoidable damage to you based on a percentage of your total hit points, and that percentage is 500%.
This is the kind of attacks raid content have, and they only use them when someone in the raid does something wrong. Thus, you can't out gear these attacks, you can't out muscle these attacks, you can't smash through these attacks. All you can do is get things right.
In these situations, a weak link kills raids.
Well, I plan on replying to any debates put forward on the topic, so if people continue to debate it, then I'm sure we could do that.
Across all games, my record for keeping a thread going on a topic I cared about is currently standing at 112 pages - that is the real target.
Now that is a target ^^
How intelligent do the debates have to be? I'm always willing to help record breaking.
well this is the ashes forums when have we ever had intelligent debates