Mate, I was literally arguing your point of "people spending all the time in an instanced pvp"
I specifically said PvP OR PvE instances.
WoW dungeons are all PvE instances.
Why would you use WoW sending players in to instances in an attempt to point out how WoW had open world content?
Do you just think everything that isn't an arena is open world?
You can’t at all be serious rn
I mean, you're the one that bought up dungeons in WoW in relation to open world...
I'm just trying to figure out what you are talking about with that.
What? No I didn't
It was more this comment
Noaani: The idea of this game is not to lock yourself in some room with a set number of other people and pretend to fight to see who of just the few of you in there at that time is the best.
You know very well dungeons are not world pvp. Literally said doing dailies was because it was all out in the open
You might be wondering, why specifically 1v1, 3v3 and 5v5?
My bet would be Steven's sources of inspiration for Ashes-> Lineage 2 and Archeage
Lineage 2 arena system was called the Olympiads system which consisted of 3 types of arenas:
1v1 non-class specific(Any class can fight any class)
1v1 class specific(You can only fight against your own class)
3v3 non-class specific.
Archeage during its early days had 2 arenas modes:
1v1 (Gladiator arena) (Any class can fight any class)
5v5 (Drill Camp Arena) (Any class can fight any class)(a full party in archeage is 5 people)
While i don't having anything against a 2v2, 4v4, 6v6 or 7v7 arenas, i don't find them something necessary when you have a 1v1, a 3v3 and a 5v5 arena.
Having too much arenas would only segragate and make longer queues.
The only arena i would add (even if a had to cut 5v5 to put in its place) is a 8v8 arena as it would represent a full party vs party arena and maybe a 40vs40 as a representation of a full raid vs raid arena).
You know very well dungeons are not world pvp. Literally said doing dailies was because it was all out in the open
Yes, I know you said dailies (something the Ashes community has resoundingly rejected for this game as well, but that's for another thread). But you also said dungeons.
Majority of your time was spent doing dailies, quests, dungeons for gold and gear
If you didn't mean to bring up dungeons in relation to open world content, then why did you bring dungeons up in relation to open world content?
Not that any of this matters, the arena in Ashes is still a side show. If anyone were to brag about their arena rank, no doubt they would get stomped on as soon as they went out in to that open world (which, in Ashes, includes dungeons as they are not instanced).
Fact is, since the arena is a side show, the best PvP'ers won't even bother with it. They will be out taking or defending nodes or castles, while the silly little people fight over arena rankings.
I still don’t agree that the only form of competitive play will just be a side show
Otherwise the game for PvPer would get very boring like the way New World did
You might be wondering, why specifically 1v1, 3v3 and 5v5?
My bet would be Steven's sources of inspiration for Ashes-> Lineage 2 and Archeage
Lineage 2 arena system was called the Olympiads system which consisted of 3 types of arenas:
1v1 non-class specific(Any class can fight any class)
1v1 class specific(You can only fight against your own class)
3v3 non-class specific.
Archeage during its early days had 2 arenas modes:
1v1 (Gladiator arena) (Any class can fight any class)
5v5 (Drill Camp Arena) (Any class can fight any class)(a full party in archeage is 5 people)
While i don't having anything against a 2v2, 4v4, 6v6 or 7v7 arenas, i don't find them something necessary when you have a 1v1, a 3v3 and a 5v5 arena.
Having too much arenas would only segragate and make longer queues.
The only arena i would add (even if a had to cut 5v5 to put in its place) is a 8v8 arena as it would represent a full party vs party arena and maybe a 40vs40 as a representation of a full raid vs raid arena).
2v2 / 5v5 - Less rewards
3v3 - Max rewards
Like OP stated
1 healer per bracket
Arena would be perfect
Like OP stated
1 healer per bracket
Arena would be perfect
This doesn't make a lot of sense, i would like to know the logic behind something like that other than personal preference especially when neglecting 1v1 arenas.
I still don’t agree that the only form of competitive play will just be a side show
Why is an arena the only form of competitive play?
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Been many years, so do not remember well.. but at the time, the Neverwinter 3 v 3 was an awesome way to polish pvp skills.. and I haven`t found a mmo (if you can call neverwinter one) that replicated the same action combat.. hope for something like a control point , points system or similar. NW has probably dates.. as never been back.
Like OP stated
1 healer per bracket
Arena would be perfect
This doesn't make a lot of sense, i would like to know the logic behind something like that other than personal preference especially when neglecting 1v1 arenas.
There's dueling, i do not see the point in 1v1 rated arena?
2v2 was good but it was very cheesey, double dps etc made it fun because then you didn't need to play 30min + matches when it was healer/dps vs healer/dps hence the rewards being less
3v3 was the more competitive type of arena and most intense, due to the fact that out of the rest of the brackets) it was the most balanced. Two teams of 1 healer + 2 dps go in, 1 team walks out, was much more
5v5 was by far the most fun, though it was more just a meme and hence also less rewards given
2v2 was good but it was very cheesey, double dps etc made it fun because then you didn't need to play 30min + matches when it was healer/dps vs healer/dps hence the rewards being less
3v3 was the more competitive type of arena and most intense, due to the fact that out of the rest of the brackets) it was the most balanced. Two teams of 1 healer + 2 dps go in, 1 team walks out, was much more
5v5 was by far the most fun, though it was more just a meme and hence also less rewards give
I suppose you are referring to WoW arenas and expecting Ashes arenas meta to work in the same way?
Quite unreasonable.
2v2 was good but it was very cheesey, double dps etc made it fun because then you didn't need to play 30min + matches when it was healer/dps vs healer/dps hence the rewards being less
3v3 was the more competitive type of arena and most intense, due to the fact that out of the rest of the brackets) it was the most balanced. Two teams of 1 healer + 2 dps go in, 1 team walks out, was much more
5v5 was by far the most fun, though it was more just a meme and hence also less rewards give
I suppose you are referring to WoW arenas and expecting Ashes arenas meta to work in the same way?
Quite unreasonable.
What I still don't get here is - why would someone that is trying to bring back the "good old days" of MMO's use the game that ruined those "good old days" as a guideline?
What I still don't get here is - why would someone that is trying to bring back the "good old days" of MMO's use the game that ruined those "good old days" as a guideline?
How the hell did rated arena ruin an MMO?
Since I’m assuming you are a PvEr how do you really have any facts to back that statement up?
What I still don't get here is - why would someone that is trying to bring back the "good old days" of MMO's use the game that ruined those "good old days" as a guideline?
How the hell did rated arena ruin an MMO?
Since I’m assuming you are a PvEr how do you really have any facts to back that statement up?
My comment was specific to the notion that "WoW did it this way, therefore Ashes must do it too".
However, arenas ruin MMO's by turning them in to little more than lobby games - the game world exists purely as a lobby while you wait for your arena.
PvE instances that players can be ported to are just as bad. Instances that you can only run once, and that you need to travel to in order to run are not nearly as bad.
What I still don't get here is - why would someone that is trying to bring back the "good old days" of MMO's use the game that ruined those "good old days" as a guideline?
How the hell did rated arena ruin an MMO?
Since I’m assuming you are a PvEr how do you really have any facts to back that statement up?
My comment was specific to the notion that "WoW did it this way, therefore Ashes must do it too".
However, arenas ruin MMO's by turning them in to little more than lobby games - the game world exists purely as a lobby while you wait for your arena.
PvE instances that players can be ported to are just as bad. Instances that you can only run once, and that you need to travel to in order to run are not nearly as bad.
You can't take it so literally, there are quality aspects of WoW that kept it going for so long, I don't see why they can't take a few features as per example "2v2" which is what this whole thread is about in the first place?
Literally they just have to replace 1v1 with 2v2 and its game and set
You can't take it so literally, there are quality aspects of WoW that kept it going for so long,
Lets assume for a minute that I agree (I don't, WoW is the reason MMO's have been in decline for over a decade).
Even if this were true, that does not mean you just take every aspect of the game and add it to the one you are making. If they did, then every game would just be WoW.
What you do, is you consider the aspects of many games and decide if anything that they do fits in with the game you want to make.
Since Intrepid are making Ashes primarily as an open world game, anything that pulls players out of the open world for long stretches of time (such as arenas) are simply not a good fit for the game.
Since Steven has said quite bluntly that he is not trying to make a game for everyone, it then stands to reason that if an arena is the thing a given player wants the most from their MMO, Ashes is not the MMO for them.
If you want an open world game where you are competing for every scrap of resources the game has to offer, Ashes may well be for you. if you want to hide off in a corner and only fight people in predictable encounters, Ashes may well not be for you.
You can't take it so literally, there are quality aspects of WoW that kept it going for so long,
Lets assume for a minute that I agree (I don't, WoW is the reason MMO's have been in decline for over a decade).
Even if this were true, that does not mean you just take every aspect of the game and add it to the one you are making. If they did, then every game would just be WoW.
What you do, is you consider the aspects of many games and decide if anything that they do fits in with the game you want to make.
Since Intrepid are making Ashes primarily as an open world game, anything that pulls players out of the open world for long stretches of time (such as arenas) are simply not a good fit for the game.
Since Steven has said quite bluntly that he is not trying to make a game for everyone, it then stands to reason that if an arena is the thing a given player wants the most from their MMO, Ashes is not the MMO for them.
If you want an open world game where you are competing for every scrap of resources the game has to offer, Ashes may well be for you. if you want to hide off in a corner and only fight people in predictable encounters, Ashes may well not be for you.
You cannot even compare the two, the game play, the amount of spells, the different classes, even down to the graphics are not even remotely World of Warcraft. My point and it will never change. taking the 1 aspect 2v2 from WoW and (other than the infamous 3v3 which is current in most competitive games) and since 5v5 was removed by blizzard years ago, Ashes can then swap 1v1 for the 2v2 which will literally be a zero breaking game changer.
Just means we will have a bracket to play with a friend because usually waiting for that 3rd player to log on as well takes time
Just means we will have a bracket to play with a friend because usually waiting for that 3rd player to log on as well takes time
Again, they don't want you waiting for a friend to log on, they want you out in the world.
The key thing to making an open world game work is having players in that open world. If your players are in arenas, then they are not in your open world, making your open world worse.
This is why there is no progression to be had in the arena (or, at the very least, very miniscule progression such as temporary gear enchants - but no actual gear). It is a side show that you do as a temporary escape, it is not the thing you log in to Ashes for.
And yes, making the arena something people log in to Ashes for would indeed be game breaking.
Just means we will have a bracket to play with a friend because usually waiting for that 3rd player to log on as well takes time
Again, they don't want you waiting for a friend to log on, they want you out in the world.
The key thing to making an open world game work is having players in that open world. If your players are in arenas, then they are not in your open world, making your open world worse.
This is why there is no progression to be had in the arena (or, at the very least, very miniscule progression such as temporary gear enchants - but no actual gear). It is a side show that you do as a temporary escape, it is not the thing you log in to Ashes for.
And yes, making the arena something people log in to Ashes for would indeed be game breaking.
Not at all what I'm saying, definitely going to be experiencing every aspect of the game and not going to be sitting around in towns waiting for arena ques, all they are saying and myself included is to replace 1v1 arena with 2v2. Because it is an enjoyable type of arena especially with double dps
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RepkarMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Because 2s are a lot harder to balance, for all the reasons you already stated.
2v2 allows you to run a non healer pair, and usually have enough burst to over power a healers output. So you essentially build a tier that healers avoid.
Or in the flip side you create a situation where a 2 healer team is impossible to kill because no pairing can produce enough output to burst one healer down. The healers either slowly wear you down, or they troll the arena and force you into maclx time matches.
You balance 2v2 by making it only healer/dps healer/tank combos, and ban double dps, yes," player choice unfairness reasonings," but it is what would need to happen, you wouldn't bring 3 dps in on a 3v3 match, why should you bring 2 dps on a 2v2 match.
As a PVP mainly focused player, I agree with 2v2.
In many games, double DPS has historically taken a majority of top 100 spots on many occasions. While not common, they are still viable.
Thats why you ban them, they are the unbalanced part of 2v2.
Not at all what I'm saying, definitely going to be experiencing every aspect of the game and not going to be sitting around in towns waiting for arena ques, all they are saying and myself included is to replace 1v1 arena with 2v2. Because it is an enjoyable type of arena especially with double dps
But 1v1 is also an enjoyable type of arena.
If the game is to have an arena, 1v1 is the first thing to add. Adding other options may well be fine, but that 1v1 is the cornerstone.
Not at all what I'm saying, definitely going to be experiencing every aspect of the game and not going to be sitting around in towns waiting for arena ques, all they are saying and myself included is to replace 1v1 arena with 2v2. Because it is an enjoyable type of arena especially with double dps
But 1v1 is also an enjoyable type of arena.
If the game is to have an arena, 1v1 is the first thing to add. Adding other options may well be fine, but that 1v1 is the cornerstone.
More like 3v3 is the cornerstone, what in the world makes you think 1v1 is? What PvP experience do you actually have to make hard statements like these? Never even heard of a 1v1 rated arena, unless it was just dueling like every other mmo
How will it work for healers? Do they have to change specs to compete? Will tanks dominate and be meta because they’re unkillable
For a team inspired game (it is because having other classes with you is beneficial) I don’t see how 2v2 is not at all way better? Than an anti social 1v1?
More like 3v3 is the cornerstone, what in the world makes you think 1v1 is? What PvP experience do you actually have to make hard statements like these? Never even heard of a 1v1 rated arena, unless it was just dueling like every other mmo
How will it work for healers? Do they have to change specs to compete? Will tanks dominate and be meta because they’re unkillable
For a team inspired game (it is because having other classes with you is beneficial) I don’t see how 2v2 is not at all way better? Than an anti social 1v1?
Oh i see, clearly only experienced WoW arenas and never experienced Lineage 2 1v1 Olympiads or Archeage 1v1 Gladiator arena.
Btw for a team inspired game with the balance revolved around a full party(8players) balance like Ashes 8v8 would be the optimal not 3v3 or 2v2.
More like 3v3 is the cornerstone, what in the world makes you think 1v1 is? What PvP experience do you actually have to make hard statements like these? Never even heard of a 1v1 rated arena, unless it was just dueling like every other mmo
How will it work for healers? Do they have to change specs to compete? Will tanks dominate and be meta because they’re unkillable
For a team inspired game (it is because having other classes with you is beneficial) I don’t see how 2v2 is not at all way better? Than an anti social 1v1?
Oh i see, clearly only experienced WoW arenas and never experienced Lineage 2 1v1 Olympiads or Archeage 1v1 Gladiator arena.
Btw for a team inspired game with the balance revolved around a full party(8players) balance like Ashes 8v8 would be the optimal not 3v3 or 2v2.
Clearly experienced more arena then you have
Just from that statement, don’t know how little you climbed but yeah nah
Unbalanced 1v1s will be alot more boring then 2v2
Least in 2v2 you got fast games compared to long drawn out kiting for 1v1s
There will be plenty of big group pvp things to do, i dont see why they wouldn’t keep the traditional 3v3 / 5v5 for smaller concentrated games?
Clearly experienced more arena then you have
Just from that statement, don’t know how little you climbed but yeah nah
I like hoe you say this as if it means something.
No one gives a shit about the arena other than those playing in the arena.
Also, if you think all games with 1v1 arenas result in long, drawn out matches, you have obviously not got much arena experience.
In my experience, most 1v1 arenas are over in less than a minute - with the occasional one stretching to maybe two or three minutes. This is because most games are not shit like WoW.
Clearly experienced more arena then you have
Just from that statement, don’t know how little you climbed but yeah nah
Quite a baseless statement mate, especially coming from someone who appears to have only experienced arena in a single game and i also "don’t know how little you climbed" even there.
Least in 2v2 you got fast games compared to long drawn out kiting for 1v1s
Nice another 2 baseless statments coming from your biased WoW personal experience without having any knowledge about Ashes meta or balance regarding PvP.
Comments
I mean, you're the one that bought up dungeons in WoW in relation to open world...
I'm just trying to figure out what you are talking about with that.
What? No I didn't
It was more this comment
Noaani: The idea of this game is not to lock yourself in some room with a set number of other people and pretend to fight to see who of just the few of you in there at that time is the best.
You know very well dungeons are not world pvp. Literally said doing dailies was because it was all out in the open
My bet would be Steven's sources of inspiration for Ashes-> Lineage 2 and Archeage
Lineage 2 arena system was called the Olympiads system which consisted of 3 types of arenas:
1v1 non-class specific(Any class can fight any class)
1v1 class specific(You can only fight against your own class)
3v3 non-class specific.
Archeage during its early days had 2 arenas modes:
1v1 (Gladiator arena) (Any class can fight any class)
5v5 (Drill Camp Arena) (Any class can fight any class)(a full party in archeage is 5 people)
While i don't having anything against a 2v2, 4v4, 6v6 or 7v7 arenas, i don't find them something necessary when you have a 1v1, a 3v3 and a 5v5 arena.
Having too much arenas would only segragate and make longer queues.
The only arena i would add (even if a had to cut 5v5 to put in its place) is a 8v8 arena as it would represent a full party vs party arena and maybe a 40vs40 as a representation of a full raid vs raid arena).
Aren't we all sinners?
Yes, I know you said dailies (something the Ashes community has resoundingly rejected for this game as well, but that's for another thread). But you also said dungeons.
Here, I'll quote you as a refresher. If you didn't mean to bring up dungeons in relation to open world content, then why did you bring dungeons up in relation to open world content?
Not that any of this matters, the arena in Ashes is still a side show. If anyone were to brag about their arena rank, no doubt they would get stomped on as soon as they went out in to that open world (which, in Ashes, includes dungeons as they are not instanced).
Fact is, since the arena is a side show, the best PvP'ers won't even bother with it. They will be out taking or defending nodes or castles, while the silly little people fight over arena rankings.
Otherwise the game for PvPer would get very boring like the way New World did
2v2 / 5v5 - Less rewards
3v3 - Max rewards
Like OP stated
1 healer per bracket
Arena would be perfect
This doesn't make a lot of sense, i would like to know the logic behind something like that other than personal preference especially when neglecting 1v1 arenas.
Aren't we all sinners?
There's dueling, i do not see the point in 1v1 rated arena?
2v2 was good but it was very cheesey, double dps etc made it fun because then you didn't need to play 30min + matches when it was healer/dps vs healer/dps hence the rewards being less
3v3 was the more competitive type of arena and most intense, due to the fact that out of the rest of the brackets) it was the most balanced. Two teams of 1 healer + 2 dps go in, 1 team walks out, was much more
5v5 was by far the most fun, though it was more just a meme and hence also less rewards given
Because Dueling isn't an rated instanced arena mode with rewards.
I suppose you are referring to WoW arenas and expecting Ashes arenas meta to work in the same way?
Quite unreasonable.
Aren't we all sinners?
Not really, more like guidelines
How the hell did rated arena ruin an MMO?
Since I’m assuming you are a PvEr how do you really have any facts to back that statement up?
My comment was specific to the notion that "WoW did it this way, therefore Ashes must do it too".
However, arenas ruin MMO's by turning them in to little more than lobby games - the game world exists purely as a lobby while you wait for your arena.
PvE instances that players can be ported to are just as bad. Instances that you can only run once, and that you need to travel to in order to run are not nearly as bad.
You can't take it so literally, there are quality aspects of WoW that kept it going for so long, I don't see why they can't take a few features as per example "2v2" which is what this whole thread is about in the first place?
Literally they just have to replace 1v1 with 2v2 and its game and set
Lets assume for a minute that I agree (I don't, WoW is the reason MMO's have been in decline for over a decade).
Even if this were true, that does not mean you just take every aspect of the game and add it to the one you are making. If they did, then every game would just be WoW.
What you do, is you consider the aspects of many games and decide if anything that they do fits in with the game you want to make.
Since Intrepid are making Ashes primarily as an open world game, anything that pulls players out of the open world for long stretches of time (such as arenas) are simply not a good fit for the game.
Since Steven has said quite bluntly that he is not trying to make a game for everyone, it then stands to reason that if an arena is the thing a given player wants the most from their MMO, Ashes is not the MMO for them.
If you want an open world game where you are competing for every scrap of resources the game has to offer, Ashes may well be for you. if you want to hide off in a corner and only fight people in predictable encounters, Ashes may well not be for you.
You cannot even compare the two, the game play, the amount of spells, the different classes, even down to the graphics are not even remotely World of Warcraft. My point and it will never change. taking the 1 aspect 2v2 from WoW and (other than the infamous 3v3 which is current in most competitive games) and since 5v5 was removed by blizzard years ago, Ashes can then swap 1v1 for the 2v2 which will literally be a zero breaking game changer.
Just means we will have a bracket to play with a friend because usually waiting for that 3rd player to log on as well takes time
Don’t think the OP is honestly asking for much
The key thing to making an open world game work is having players in that open world. If your players are in arenas, then they are not in your open world, making your open world worse.
This is why there is no progression to be had in the arena (or, at the very least, very miniscule progression such as temporary gear enchants - but no actual gear). It is a side show that you do as a temporary escape, it is not the thing you log in to Ashes for.
And yes, making the arena something people log in to Ashes for would indeed be game breaking.
Not at all what I'm saying, definitely going to be experiencing every aspect of the game and not going to be sitting around in towns waiting for arena ques, all they are saying and myself included is to replace 1v1 arena with 2v2. Because it is an enjoyable type of arena especially with double dps
Thats why you ban them, they are the unbalanced part of 2v2.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas
If the game is to have an arena, 1v1 is the first thing to add. Adding other options may well be fine, but that 1v1 is the cornerstone.
More like 3v3 is the cornerstone, what in the world makes you think 1v1 is? What PvP experience do you actually have to make hard statements like these? Never even heard of a 1v1 rated arena, unless it was just dueling like every other mmo
How will it work for healers? Do they have to change specs to compete? Will tanks dominate and be meta because they’re unkillable
For a team inspired game (it is because having other classes with you is beneficial) I don’t see how 2v2 is not at all way better? Than an anti social 1v1?
Oh i see, clearly only experienced WoW arenas and never experienced Lineage 2 1v1 Olympiads or Archeage 1v1 Gladiator arena.
Btw for a team inspired game with the balance revolved around a full party(8players) balance like Ashes 8v8 would be the optimal not 3v3 or 2v2.
Aren't we all sinners?
Clearly experienced more arena then you have
Just from that statement, don’t know how little you climbed but yeah nah
Unbalanced 1v1s will be alot more boring then 2v2
Least in 2v2 you got fast games compared to long drawn out kiting for 1v1s
There will be plenty of big group pvp things to do, i dont see why they wouldn’t keep the traditional 3v3 / 5v5 for smaller concentrated games?
I like hoe you say this as if it means something.
No one gives a shit about the arena other than those playing in the arena.
Also, if you think all games with 1v1 arenas result in long, drawn out matches, you have obviously not got much arena experience.
In my experience, most 1v1 arenas are over in less than a minute - with the occasional one stretching to maybe two or three minutes. This is because most games are not shit like WoW.
Quite a baseless statement mate, especially coming from someone who appears to have only experienced arena in a single game and i also "don’t know how little you climbed" even there.
Nice another 2 baseless statments coming from your biased WoW personal experience without having any knowledge about Ashes meta or balance regarding PvP.
I mean even tho not optimal 1v1, 3v3 and 5v5 are already on their list, i have nothing to complain about them.
Aren't we all sinners?
Point still stands
2v2 > 1v1
Point still stands
1v1 is confirmed and 2v2 isn't.
Aren't we all sinners?