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Concern: MTX Cosmetics Justification Contradicts the "No Participation Trophy" Philosophy
daxiongmao87
Member
Concern: MTX Cosmetics Justification Contradicts the "No Participation Trophy" Philosophy
I'm very excited for this game, and can't wait to see how it develops up to launch. I'm just about hyped about every single component about the game, except for the MTX cosmetics. I can't say that it is immediately a deal breaker, not until we see how it's implemented.
During Steven's last AMA he said:
"[...] god, I hate calling out games, but I will call out BDO. BDO does great things, I love BDO. It's a very good, well-done game, but one thing I couldn't stand about BDO, unfortunately to say this, is that you look like trash unless you spent money in the cosmetic shop. That sucks, to be fair, and take that feedback obviously with a grain of salt.
However, what I would say is in Ashes of Creation, there is going to be legendary cosmetics that can be earned and achieved in the game, IN the game, through the game systems. But that's going to take a significant amount of effort and work, okay? And those cosmetics are going to be on par with the cosmetics offered in the marketplace, okay? Now with that being said there are different types of players that exist within MMOs. There are casuals and there are hardcores. As unfortunate as this is to say, we as a demographic as an MMORPG community we are an aging group of poeple. And as long as the cosmetic doesn't present an in-game advantage, some people love collecting cool looking cosmetics, and they may not have the time that in-game provides as a gate to that progression."
Emphasis mine.
While cosmetics are inherently not pay-to-win, they are a reward system, and granting those rewards to people who can't find the time or effort to put in the work, but instead can put in cash, seems, at least to me, to go against what has been constantly said about other components of the game, like dungeons, raids and PVP, flying mounts, etc., where people who put in the work get the greatest rewards.
Maybe the differentiation is that those other things are gameplay mechanics or affect gameplay mechanics, while cosmetics do not (for the most part). However, cosmetics affect visual progression, and the **MTX store having cosmetics on par with legendary cosmetics that take a significant amount of work and effort** really, *really*, diminishes the impact of visual progression.
Honestly I wish the cosmetics store was done away with, and cosmetics were accomplished differently. Cosmetics present multiple challenges by themselves, as noted in other posts, and questions, such as hiding true gear power, etc. (I know this was addressed in the AMA, but having to look at a buff icon and interpret the border colors, and what-not to determine their gear seems to be another layer of abstraction that shouldn't exist).
Maybe not the\ solution, but something like having item dyes as part of an artisan class (or classes) would lend some visual creativity for players, while keeping their visuals constrained enough to their original appearance, I think would be enough, at least for me.
I know there are a lot of players who like cosmetics, and maybe I'm completely off the mark, but I just wanted to really point out as to why I believe the MTX cosmetics shop goes against one of the philosophies of "No Participation Trophies."
Thank you for your time!
I'm very excited for this game, and can't wait to see how it develops up to launch. I'm just about hyped about every single component about the game, except for the MTX cosmetics. I can't say that it is immediately a deal breaker, not until we see how it's implemented.
During Steven's last AMA he said:
"[...] god, I hate calling out games, but I will call out BDO. BDO does great things, I love BDO. It's a very good, well-done game, but one thing I couldn't stand about BDO, unfortunately to say this, is that you look like trash unless you spent money in the cosmetic shop. That sucks, to be fair, and take that feedback obviously with a grain of salt.
However, what I would say is in Ashes of Creation, there is going to be legendary cosmetics that can be earned and achieved in the game, IN the game, through the game systems. But that's going to take a significant amount of effort and work, okay? And those cosmetics are going to be on par with the cosmetics offered in the marketplace, okay? Now with that being said there are different types of players that exist within MMOs. There are casuals and there are hardcores. As unfortunate as this is to say, we as a demographic as an MMORPG community we are an aging group of poeple. And as long as the cosmetic doesn't present an in-game advantage, some people love collecting cool looking cosmetics, and they may not have the time that in-game provides as a gate to that progression."
Emphasis mine.
While cosmetics are inherently not pay-to-win, they are a reward system, and granting those rewards to people who can't find the time or effort to put in the work, but instead can put in cash, seems, at least to me, to go against what has been constantly said about other components of the game, like dungeons, raids and PVP, flying mounts, etc., where people who put in the work get the greatest rewards.
Maybe the differentiation is that those other things are gameplay mechanics or affect gameplay mechanics, while cosmetics do not (for the most part). However, cosmetics affect visual progression, and the **MTX store having cosmetics on par with legendary cosmetics that take a significant amount of work and effort** really, *really*, diminishes the impact of visual progression.
Honestly I wish the cosmetics store was done away with, and cosmetics were accomplished differently. Cosmetics present multiple challenges by themselves, as noted in other posts, and questions, such as hiding true gear power, etc. (I know this was addressed in the AMA, but having to look at a buff icon and interpret the border colors, and what-not to determine their gear seems to be another layer of abstraction that shouldn't exist).
Maybe not the\ solution, but something like having item dyes as part of an artisan class (or classes) would lend some visual creativity for players, while keeping their visuals constrained enough to their original appearance, I think would be enough, at least for me.
I know there are a lot of players who like cosmetics, and maybe I'm completely off the mark, but I just wanted to really point out as to why I believe the MTX cosmetics shop goes against one of the philosophies of "No Participation Trophies."
Thank you for your time!
5
Comments
I like the idea of cosmetics giving players more options to express themselves visually but also think the greatest visual rewards should come from in-game even though I know that's a little subjective.
One aspect of gear that hasn't been talked about in a while is each race having its own unique gear appearance. As I said, haven't heard about this in a while so maybe it's been scratched but originally, an elf wearing plate would look different than an orc in the same armor. In that system, cosmetics are kind of a way for you to use a different race's armor appearance.
I also think it's worth calling out that to some degree, the scarcity and rarity of a hard-earned item will give it extra value that its cosmetic shop equivalent will not have, I just hope they do a good job of making sure you can tell them apart.
I agree as well. If its some sort of dye system, like it is for mounts, I'll be ok with it.
Now, I know it would be nice if the (arguably quite reasonable) subscription fees were enough to finance all of these things whilst also offering a tidy profit to the company operating them, but the fantasy is something we experience in the game.
Out here in the real world, businesses need to turn a profit. Do I think that justifies any action necessary to do so? No, of course not. Steven and Intrepid have been very frank about what they hope to achieve with Ashes, and very transparent and involved with community feedback, ensuring that we can all enjoy the best experience they can provide at a price that's affordable and open to as many people as possible.
For those in the community whose sole goal it is to collect the various cosmetics available within the world, who love the challenge of hunting down every last elusive item so that they can put their hard work and achievements on display, I get that mtx cosmetics can sour their experience to an extent.
At the same time, if I was in Intrepid's position, forced to choose between burdening the entire playerbase with additional costs in order to enjoy the world that I genuinely want to share with as many people as possible, without compromising the integrity of that experience, mtx cosmetics would be the way I'd choose to do it, too.
I'm not saying you have to be happy about it, but developing an MMO is an insanely costly venture, and by no means a one time expense. Even when the game launches, it's reasonable to expect that a large portion of Intrepid's revenue is going to be used to fuel content updates, new events, bug fixes, and hiring more staff to ensure the community can grow, thrive, and have the best experience they can possibly provide.
If you don't like cosmetic shops, that's a valid opinion to have. But the money has to come from somewhere, and there are a lot of people in a lot of regions who want to enjoy this game and community just as much as you do, for whom it would just not be possible without Intrepid having the additional revenue streams that the cosmetics shops provide.
Is it ideal? No. But it is reality.
Specially since they've been transparent on so many other things.
I completely agree that anything that is won by endurance and determination shouldn't also be a purchased option. Legendary should reflect that it is indeed legendary.
I differ in the opinion that you shouldn't be able to purchase some cosmetic only items. Not everyone has the freedom of time to invest, and goodness knows, the luck to find a good guild or gaming buddies. Just because some people are shorter on time to commit doesn't mean they shouldn't enjoy the visual immersion. The shop will make money off these items too, allowing for more investment for the end-game players to have more content.
The Cash shop I would not mind would be, Cosmetic items, that are not related to the inworld game, I.E. Santa Hats, Or Bunny Ears. I would also make those items very cheap but with durability. so for a dollar, you can have bunny ears for a month.. you can buy 5 or 10 total. you could sell individual pieces or whole sets of these types of skins and/or skins for mounts all with this concept and it won't subtract from the value or appearance of actual in-game item appearances
Steven has said that. I can't remember if it was with the AMA or when he talked on Pathfinder, but he said that the cosmetics are part of what pays for continued development.
I know it's easy to forget, but Intrepid isn't just trying to make money. They have employees with families to provide for and responsibilities. While things like subscriptions might keep the servers running and provide a relatively steady revenue stream, new development and content means hiring more people, and pouring large amounts of money into projects that realistically won't see a return on investment for protracted periods of time.
Then why mention that $15 a month, no box fees, no dlc costs, etc was more than enough? Just be transparent about it like they are with everything else.
I must have missed that, and I've only been following since the lazypeon video so if it's older I most likely missed it. I just remember him not mentioning it during the asmongold interview, where he said the sub is all they need. Maybe I misremembered that as well.
@daxiongmao87 You may personally be able to ignore certain economic realities, and you may dislike the decisions they've made, but at which point can you claim that you've actually be lied to? Intrepid has been very up front about this. Not liking the answer you got does not mean that they're not transparent about it.
And workaround where you see some icon, which indicates gear tier (or whatever) is kind of weak. But I understand, there is market for those transmogs and to get some extra cash from it. On the other hand, it can get out of hand, where game will try to lure you in buying transmogs, because skins in shop will look much better or ingame will be ridicilously hard to get (like Steven mentioned).
Though it kind of breaks immersion, where armor visuals do not go in par with its power.
Timestamp: 1:19:18
".. and that subscription provides funding and revenue for the developers to continue significant content creation and expansion rollout for the game ..."
Timestamp: 1:24:40
" ... a subscription is more than enough for a company that has a successful game under it's belt to provide constant updates content releases, ... "
@Niraada No I don't think I'm being lied to, nor do I think they are being mischievous. In the contrary, I believe in Stevens vision, I just find MTX cosmetics a strange exception to one of their tenants.
That's just my thoughts, but whatver Steven decides is fine with me, it won't take long to see the people who bought their stuff and the people who earned it.
Don't complain about combat until it's out and you know it sucks.
Don't complain multiboxing until it you see it actually impact the game.
Don't complain about family summons until you see the zergfest actually happen.
Dont raise concerns about anything until it's too late and the experience is worse because of it.
Please stop with the disengenuous language, just because you think I'm attacking the game. Without these discussions how are we to expect to improve?
Scrutiny is important, and I'm not the only one who has these concerns.
You're saying that it's unfair that cash-shop cosmetics are on par with cosmetics achieved in-game. How is that NOT complaining?
How can you even hope to give feedback on something you haven't seen yet, especially when it comes to things as subjective as cosmetics. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
Here's the other thing to consider. Cosmetic rewards are a sign of status and achievement, and the cosmetics are obtained in game are different to the cash shop items, meaning you can tell who has the cash shop ones and who has the achievement ones. In WoW, if you see someone riding a mount that can only be obtained in a certain raid, you know they have put in the effort to do that raid and get that mount. On the other hand, if you see someone riding a mount that is bought through the cash shop, they will stick out like a sore thumb.
Now, if the cosmetics earned in game have lower quality effects, etc on them than the cash shop cosmetics, then I could understand your concern. But again, we haven't seen the in-game cosmetics yet so we can't make that judgement call yet.
I would like to stress very firmly that I am NOT against people giving feedback (hell, I just made a video stating that exact thing), but there are certain things that are nearly impossible to give proper feedback on, including cosmetics that we haven't even seen yet.
The in-game coveted versions will only be considered better by those that fully understand the challenge of acquisition. newer and more casual players may not be able to identify the source of items/mounts so to them the one that is cool at first glance is better
And if impressing people is your only goal, would you rather impress the newbies who will quickly learn where the cash shop mount came from, or the veterans who will see your accomplishments for what they are and know you are the real deal?
I'm saying it goes against the tenant of "No Participation Trophies." And expressing my opinion. You can call it whatever you want then.
Yet you use the phrase "on par" as a way to equate one cosmetic over the other. There will obviously be popular cosmetics and unpopular cosmetics. That doesn't mean everyone will like A over B, but it does mean you can design a look that caters to a majority. So this is silly.
I am not and never was a fan of the WOW cash shop nor the transmog feature and a lot of people aren't. But I assume you'd be okay with purchasable cosmetic mounts? What about purchasable titles?
I'm not judging the game's yet-to-be-seen implementation of MTX cosmetics, I'm simply raising concern for the language Steven has brought toward MTX cosmetics vs in-game cosmetics.
I don't want to keep repeating myself, but it's not about what the cosmetics will be but the principal of "No Participation Trophies." If a cosmetic was hard earned and looks just as good ( on par, for your clarification ) as something I can buy on the MTX store. That's a participation trophy.
And we can absolutely talk about that with legitimate discussion.
You play the game a lot? You can get your flashy dragon-tooth crown with flames on it that will be the mark of a top-end player.
Another guy doesn't play much - why shouldn't he have nice things? Why can't BOTH of you have nice things? What is this mentality of wanting to drag people DOWN so as to appear even higher in comparison? Instead of asking for more cool rewards for overachievers, you are asking for less rewards for casuals. Which doesn't make any sense to me.
Steven himself says those who put in the work should get the greatest rewards.
If your stance is that casuals should get just as great things as hardcore players,. There are plenty of other systems in this game that do not cater to casuals. Do you agree with this game's stances behind flying mounts? What about castles? Mayor system? Each one of those will most likely be less obtainable for a causal. Let's not mention there's no group finder or fast travel. This will be a game where "you get out what you put in."