AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Don’t forget that cosmetic shop items are exclusive. That goes both ways. Not only can you not earn cosmetic shop items in the course of playing the game, but that also means if there’s some cosmetic in the game that you have to earn, you can’t just go buy it from the shop.
So while you might have to do an epic quest to earn the Crown of Glory in the game, and you can buy the Crown of Fame in the store and still get a crown, you still won’t have the actual Crown of Glory unless you work for it.
Or if you want to use the trophy analogy, I can go down to a trophy shop and buy a big silver thing and put “WORLD’S BEST HOCKEY PLAYER EVAR” on it, but I still don’t have the Stanley Cup.
For those of you against a cosmetic cash shop. What is your stance on the kickstarter exclusive cosmetics, as well as the monthly ones that have been coming up for purchase during development?
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For those of you against a cosmetic cash shop. What is your stance on the kickstarter exclusive cosmetics, as well as the monthly ones that have been coming up for purchase during development?
Those are literally the same thing. The cosmetic shop has been open for years, and those are exactly what people are griping about.
And it’s a gripe with no reasoning behind it. This is all based purely on a strange misunderstanding of what Steven was talking about, and Ashes in general.
For those of you against a cosmetic cash shop. What is your stance on the kickstarter exclusive cosmetics, as well as the monthly ones that have been coming up for purchase during development?
Those are literally the same thing. The cosmetic shop has been open for years, and those are exactly what people are griping about.
And it’s a gripe with no reasoning behind it. This is all based purely on a strange misunderstanding of what Steven was talking about, and Ashes in general.
I definitely agree with you that Steven's meaning of "no participation trophies" was clearly not also considering or including the cosmetic shop.
It was more referencing that when playing this game, you won't be rewarded just for logging in. You have to DO something to get something back. If you want a freehold you have to WORK for a freehold. There's not gonna be a free chest you can open once a week that could just give you a BiS item.
I also think that putting money into something means you DID do something for it. It wasn't free. They didn't just participate, they paid money. It is just a bought trophy as opposed to an earned trophy. Neither is given for free just for being around, which is what a participation trophy is.
For those of you against a cosmetic cash shop. What is your stance on the kickstarter exclusive cosmetics, as well as the monthly ones that have been coming up for purchase during development?
Personally I could do without, but I think it's important to give back to early adopters. I never liked cosmetics in the form of draping some skin over items anyway. I'd much prefer something like dyes (which I was informed are already in the game, nice!).
@atama I do like that analogy and definitely agree with that to an extent, but cosmetics also serve a function of visual representation of your character.
I guess I'm coming from a different perspective, where players who are casuals and don't plan on using the MTX shop vs those who are casual players and use the MTX shop.
First - you are getting your reward by putting in the work. I can guarantee you that shop items will not be the same as those top-tier gear that marks the elite.
However demanding that shop items be lower quality, or that they look worse - just because you want to be "the special one" is simply stupid and childish.
Let both in-game and shop items be beautiful. Equally beautiful, and up to the taste of the user.
Secondly, I come to the game to PLAY. Not "work".
Saying that I can't have a cosmetic experience on the same level as "the hardcore" people - is kinda stupid.
Thirdly, the fact that someone else has good cosmetics does not undermine your reward. It's as if you can't feel good about a great-looking item unless all the plebs around you are dressed in trash.
You do the content - you get a great-looking reward. This reward is in no way undermined by the fact that someone looks just as beautiful through other means - including the shop.
Unless, that is, you feel that your gaming experience wasn't worth it in and of itself.
If you are playing the game to be visibly "better" than the casuals surrounding you - you have wrong priorities in life.
I agree, in MMO Visual appearance should represent player Achievements, it's core part of mmo. I don't mind if some cosmetics gets monetized, but armor is not one of them! Best scenario there is no Cosmetic shop, but if there will be one, then here is some options - Aura effects, minions, summons, pets(not mounts), Color pallets or colored armor presets, colored weapon effects, small Accessory etc....
Having cosmetic armor will have big impact on games longevity and over all will lower quality of game play.
In my opinion Appearance should represent player Achievements.
Secondly, I come to the game to PLAY. Not "work".
Saying that I can't have a cosmetic experience on the same level as "the hardcore" people - is kinda stupid.
Is this mentality limited to cosmetics? Do you also want the same flying mount experience as "the hardcore" people? What about titles? And for the record, I'm not a hardcore player and I'm not going to "work."
Thirdly, the fact that someone else has good cosmetics does not undermine your reward. It's as if you can't feel good about a great-looking item unless all the plebs around you are dressed in trash.
You do the content - you get a great-looking reward. This reward is in no way undermined by the fact that someone looks just as beautiful through other means - including the shop.
Ok no, I never said anything about anyone looking like trash. I prefer that your clothes represent your achievements. However, yes, I do care about my friends checking my character out and seeing what I accomplished, and vice versa. And yes I do care about immersion, so the imagery around me matters.
To be 100% honest, an option to toggle off all cosmetics from my client view would probably solve this in my eyes.
@atama I do like that analogy and definitely agree with that to an extent, but cosmetics also serve a function of visual representation of your character.
I guess I'm coming from a different perspective, where players who are casuals and don't plan on using the MTX shop vs those who are casual players and use the MTX shop.
I understand but for any game that allows you to change the appearance of gear with a skin, you will have a disconnect between how a person looks and their achievements. They no longer have anything to do with each other. If I like the look of crude starter gear I may voluntarily look like a schlub even though I might be of the top players on the server doing end game raids and crushing people in PvP. Conversely, a starting character may have a fancy-looking setup that even the top players can’t have because that player bought a good Kickstarter package.
Basically, from Day 1 when Intrepid offered skins to backers that was decided. Appearance and achievement aren’t going to always equate. There are of course always pros and cons; the main benefit here being player choice in what they look like, the downside being that you can’t just look at a character and know right away how powerful they are. But that’s how the game was designed. And it doesn’t contradict any of the goals or values presented by Steven and others at Intrepid by doing it that way.
Now, if you could just buy things in the store that you’d have to earn in the game (cosmetic or otherwise) I would understand the objection. But they have divorced the two.
I’ll share an anecdote that might help put things in perspective. In the early days of WoW they didn’t have a shop where you could buy in-game stuff. At some point they realized that it’s a potential revenue stream so started with a limited store. One item they offered was a flying mount called the Celestial Steed. You can see it below:
It was the very first mount that was sold outside the game. And many players (myself included) thought it looked ridiculous, and there was contempt for players who bought it instead of earning a mount in game. They were often given the pejorative name “sparkle pony” and people riding them sometimes got teased in chat.
I doubt that sort of thing would actually happen in Ashes; it has been more than a decade since then and store purchases don’t have the stigma they once did. But it does show you that just because the developers put an effort into making cash shop items look attractive, that doesn’t mean they will earn respect in the game.
Secondly, I come to the game to PLAY. Not "work".
Saying that I can't have a cosmetic experience on the same level as "the hardcore" people - is kinda stupid.
Is this mentality limited to cosmetics? Do you also want the same flying mount experience as "the hardcore" people? What about titles? And for the record, I'm not a hardcore player and I'm not going to "work."
You can’t compare a purely cosmetic purchase to a functionality purchase. They’re not even remotely similar.
Anything bought in the store was purchased with money someone earned.
Anything earned in the game was purchased with time and skill.
In both cases something had to be earned, so neither qualifies as a participation trophy.
That's silly. I'm referring to "earned" through in-game means. Efforts from outside the game (ie monetary game) is uncontrollable from within the game. So e people have more monetary power than others.
You can’t compare a purely cosmetic purchase to a functionality purchase. They’re not even remotely similar.
Anything bought in the store was purchased with money someone earned.
Anything earned in the game was purchased with time and skill.
In both cases something had to be earned, so neither qualifies as a participation trophy.
That's silly. I'm referring to "earned" through in-game means. Efforts from outside the game (ie monetary game) is uncontrollable from within the game. So e people have more monetary power than others.
You can’t compare a purely cosmetic purchase to a functionality purchase. They’re not even remotely similar.
Thats fair, specifically for flyng mounts.
Yes some people do have more money, but they will not be able to use that monetary power to purchase cosmetics that are earned in the game. Players won’t be able to buy the costume that’s rewarded from clearing ex. a cultist lair dungeon, though they can probably buy a set of nice looking robes. Players won’t be able the purchase the royal mount rewarded for ex. defeating hundreds of enemies during sieges against your node.
They can buy similar things, similar styles, but the ingame rewards will stand out on their own.
Intrepid wants people to have options to have “cool” characters regardless of their monetary or skill investments. It won’t all be over-the-top edge fests (though I admit I’m weak for that aesthetic), nor will it be sparkles everywhere you look. With widely available Nice and Simple cosmetics and Gleaming Legendary cosmetics both available in-game and assuming the dye system is as robust as I’m hoping, there won’t be any lack of options for non-payers to customize their look how they want. Heck, there’s even a system being designed so players can have little knickknacks on their character’s backpacks just for cosmetic flavor.
You know, I've always disliked how games are like "we have a cash shop, but don't worry about it! There's no P2W so everything's fine" as if that makes it acceptable, especially in MMORPGs. To me, cosmetics have always been the most important end game content, the goals, and motivations that make me play the content even when it eventually gets boring because of repetitiveness, with no desirable rewards what's the point of doing hard/time-consuming content? And increased stats as rewards for content has never really been appealing to me. Whenever a game company puts in purchasable cosmetics in their cash shop one of two things I've experienced happens:
1) The game company will put all the cosmetics in the cash shop, not tying it to gameplay at all aka BDO which were the last straw causing me to drop that game, excluding the other problems that game had at launch that completely ruined the experience for me like the tedious gear progression, level grind, etc. (I completely dropped leveling & combat altogether and stayed in my top-ranked house in Velia and only focusing on cooking, farming, gathering for a few months before I quit)
2) The game company will reduce the number of cosmetics rewarded in-game, favoring the cash shop instead aka GW2. The only MMO that has been able to keep me playing for thousands of hours is guild wars 2 also known as fashion wars 2, and I love that game to death but I'll also not fool around and pretend that the cash shop isn't the worst part of the game that completely made a lot of the game's content feel absolutely unrewarding especially when it came to replayability. I literally spent hours upon hours during many weeks completing raids and farming various content for materials to craft the legendary heavy armor for my guardian, and I'll admit that the thrill of getting ever so close to finishing it was really fun and rewarding, but when I finally finished it after all the blood, sweat and tears? Pretty awesome for a few weeks, before their next cash shop item got released which looked way cooler than my legendary armor I worked hard to attain, sure I could now switch my gear stats anytime I wanted which is pretty convenient... but that's about it. After that raids became pretty much dead content to me, I already had enough ascended gear for the characters I played, the few cosmetics I could still get weren't really anything I wanted and while I could go for another set of legendary armor for some other character, it was just not worth the time and energy.
The 'achievement' and 'prestige' of cosmetics were completely non-existent in the game because of the cash shop, but I can still accept it at the end of the day because the game had no subscription fee and you could trade in-game gold to gems to use in the cash shop which allowed you to purchase anything you wanted without spending a cent if you wanted. It made rewards in-game close to worthless since you just had to farm gold to purchase everything you wanted, but I can tell you one thing; if gw2 didn't do these two things (no subscription, and gold to gem conversion) the cash shop would have killed the game and it would be nowhere near as successful as it is today. Ashes on the other hand ARE planning on having a subscription fee, and as far as I know, there has been no talk about being able to trade in-game currency for cash shop currency. THIS makes me very worried for the future of the game, my one and only concern.
So, I find the whole "a cash shop is fine as long as there's no P2W in it" annoying. Isn't the whole reason why P2W is bad because it makes combat or rather, PvP unfun and unrewarding for everyone else? Well, cash shop cosmetics ruins the fun and prestige of obtaining cool items, making my end-game content feel unrewarding. If I went around saying that we should remove cosmetics from the cash shop while keeping P2W items in it because I don't care about the PVP I'd probably get lynched. But that's kinda what I feel about all the people not caring about putting cosmetics in the cash shop because it's "only cosmetics".
I miss the old times before the cash shops were so prevalent. The times when you could just buy a game and could just go to town without ever having to pay anything additional unless they released an expansion. When people would come up to you in-game telling you how cool your gear was, asked how you got it and you could tell an epic tale about each piece of equipment. Those were the times.
Enough of my rant, I'll continue staying cautiously optimistic about the game and wait until launch before judging if the cash shop will completely ruin the experience for me or not.
So, I find the whole "a cash shop is fine as long as there's no P2W in it" annoying. Isn't the whole reason why P2W is bad because it makes combat or rather, PvP unfun and unrewarding for everyone else?
No, P2W is bad because it means a non-paying player will never be able to progress at the same rate as someone who pays, or they will never be able to have the stat strength a payer does.
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PhluxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2020
It is interesting that some people are ok with limiting how people spend their money on things that have no mechanics/ player power behind them like cosmetics with the justification of "some people have more money than others and that's not fair..." While at the same time, they are ok with the "you need to put the time in" argument as if some people don't have more time to play than others. This is especially true these days as there are people whose entire job is to literally play games.
I wonder if those same people would be ok with the devs limiting "timed played" to the average of all active accounts per month for every account based on the previous month. If after the first month, the average in game time was 20-30 hours for the month. So the next month that is all the time players were allowed on the server. You know, in the effort to keep things fair. It's a similar argument as both are external conditions from the game. Each is entirely subjective to the individual involved and we would want to make sure everyone has a level playing field.
Seems kind of silly to me, but that is just my opinion and others do not have to agree with me.
In the end, cosmetics are a big thing in games these days and cash shop versions are also very big part of that. If you trust the devs to balance the hard stuff like PvX mechanics and player based economies, then we can trust them to balance the cash shop too.
It is interesting that some people are ok with limiting how people spend their money on things that have no mechanics/ player power behind them like cosmetics with the justification of "some people have more money than others and that's not fair..." While at the same time, they are ok with the "you need to put the time in" argument as if some people don't have more time to play than others. This is especially true these days as there are people whose entire job is to literally play games
I assume this is directed at me. Theres a difference between putting the time in the game vs putting the money in the game. I'm one of those people who don't have e time, so this argument doesn't even work.
I agree that it's not ideal to have some people buy their way to a uniquely visual look on par with others who earn that look in-game through effort. At first I thought it'd be OK if there are a lot of in-game costumes comparable to those in the store, but hearing that it'll be (only a few?) legendary costumes 'sounds' like a step in the wrong direction.
Edit: I just hope there are more legendary cosmetics in-game than there are in the store. Otherwise, it'll feel like the game is pushing players to the store, and then we're back to BDO.
Though one thing I think will happen naturally is players with in-game legendary costumes will get a special kind of respect and elicit a bigger reaction because others will recognise their achievement/effort.
It could also be the case that some normal gear sets can look just as unique and awesome as some costumes, so that could change the whole equation.
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PhluxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2020
Fair warning, this is a long response. It is difficult to explain an argument or point of view via text verses speech.
I assume this is directed at me. Theres a difference between putting the time in the game vs putting the money in the game. I'm one of those people who don't have e time, so this argument doesn't even work.
No, I am not directing this specifically at you. Please don't take it as such. It is more of a thought exercise aimed at one side of this debate.
I should preface that in general I am not a fan of cash shops as they leave an avenue open that can lead to abuse from greed. While I do not think this will happen here given Steven's fairly visceral feelings on cash shop mechanics. It is always a possibility should his position ever change through something beyond his control or his quest for the perfect pair of sandals reaching madness. I really am not a fan of cash shops that sell player power either as these tend to do more harm to the community via perception than anything else.
I can, however, understand the use of cash shops that sell non-player power type things like cosmetics. They are the lesser of these seemingly necessary evils from the business model side. They tend to have the least impact on the game from a mechanics/ balance side and from a community perception side.
That perception is the part that I find interesting. Players tend to equate time in game as more important than money spent on the game. While in most aspect of life, time is often equated as being equal to money. It is a widely known Western metaphor: "Time is money, friend - WoW Goblins.".
The argument does in fact work. The amount of time or money an individual player has to spend on any given game is beyond the Dev's control and completely external to the game itself. The Dev's need both of these resources from the player base. They literally feed each other. More money collected drives content creation which drives more things to spend time on in game. That time spent in game drive more money to be spent on the game. It is the core cycle of game development. It's the perception of these two resources that drive the argument.
Given the following three examples nearly every player will fall into one of the three groups based on their personal experience in other games and the resources that they personally have available.
Example A (External Resource Balanced): Status symbol X is achieved via scaled event. Assuming mechanical balances are there on a class by class nature or group encounter size; this event would scale with level/ gear, have no hard time limit, no artificial expiration date, is expected to be accomplished in 15-20 minutes of gameplay, and can be repeated until successful. At the end, players get a cosmetically identical reward as a result of completion.
This is balanced from an external resource standpoint. Every player can spend roughly the same amount of time and money on this event while earning the same reward at completion. If created properly it will only require some measure of individual skill at playing the game as the resource to accomplish with the difficulty set by the Dev's. Everything about this type of event is controlled by the Dev's with the exception being actual player skill.
Example B (Time Resourced Balanced): Status symbol X is achieved via time spent event. Assuming mechanical balances are there on a class by class nature or group encounter size; this event would require the player to spend 100 hours in game doing a specified series of normal game related tasks appropriate for their given level/ gear; nothing really trivial and nothing really challenging. At the end, players get a cosmetically identical reward.
This is balanced in favor of those with more time as an external resource. Those that have more time available to them will be able to complete this long before those with far less time to play. Everything about this type of event is controlled by the Dev's with the exception being actual time available to the player.
Example C (Money Resourced Balanced): Status symbol X is achieved via money spent event. Assuming taxation and regional requirements are balanced for the price spent per player; this event would require the player to spend $100 in total on the game on a single account (subscription time, cosmetics, Kickstarter, ect all count toward this total). At the end, players get a cosmetically identical reward.
This is balanced in favor of those with more money as an external resource. Those that have more disposable income available to them will be able to complete this long before those that are only paying the subscription fee. Everything about this type of event is controlled by the Dev's with the exception being actual real world money available to the player.
None of these examples poses any mechanical advantage over another. All of these have existed in other popular games. They are all balance around a specific design philosophy. They all can exist in the game at the same time without harming the others. The prestige associated with each reward is completely driven by personal perception and those combined personal perceptions equals the community's perception. Triggered events, Achievement grinds, and Veteran Rewards programs as an example of each type. Depending on the community, all of these have had positive and negative perceptions. Those perceptions were also almost exclusively tied to the actual implementation of the system. Poorly implemented systems tend to have a more negative associations.
I personally find that Example A has a higher value to me. Others will find that Example B or C is of higher value. While there are exceptions, I expect that those that do prefer B or C are choosing them based on what they themselves believe is attainable for themselves. If my job was to play this game or was retired, I would have tons of time in game and would expect Example B to more appealing. On the other hand, if I had tons of money (likely at the expense of time to play) I would expect that Example C would be preferable to me. If I did not have either lots of time or money whichever of the three I personally think is the one I could reasonable accomplish would be the preferred.
TL:DR In the end, there are a ton of progression paths in this game that result in cosmetic rewards. Some are meant for those with excess time, some for those with excess skill, some for those with excess social standing, and they are creating a single path for those with excess disposable income to still look cool while playing and provide a direct impact on future content without significantly impacting those other systems. I'm ok with this so long as there are equivalent development efforts between those systems. It will be a balancing act that we will simply have to trust the Dev's to manage. Faith is hard to manage in light of so many failures within this industry and specifically within this genre.
Seriously, sometimes i think you people are just looking for stuff to cry about because you are bored.
Noone is taking anything away from you by buying a nice suit or some wallpaper for the house from the cash shop.
People will always know which cosmetics were from the shop and which ones requier you to 24/7 nolife the game for a month, so you will get your special attention for those hard to get cosmetics.
But belive it or not, even people who work 10 hours a day and can only play a few hours at the weekends shouldnt have to look like sh*t.
This isnt puttibg them on the same level as you who plays the game like a second job, you still get to have the big house, the epic weapon, the cool mounts and the elite gamer cosmetics. All people who use the cash shop get is the chance to not look like a beggar when they log in to spend sone time leveling.
And noone will see them as a badass gamer like you are, because everyone knows you dont get this cosmetic for killing 3 bosses in 1 hour with one hand behind your back doing situps while playing and singing the national anthem of belgium, you get it for putting 10 bucks in the cash shop.
By that logic buying items from others or buying carries is participation trophy.
U dont like microtransactions thats fine but we live in an imperfect world and compromises need to be made. Many mmo players love that shit. They do. You dont like it. Compromise is that you can farm cool free ones and they cant buy power.
My advice is you take what u can get and dont expect anything to be perfect
Using real money to buy a trophy never jived with me either.
By that logic buying items from others or buying carries is participation trophy.
Your effort was through in-game means to acquire those items.
U dont like microtransactions thats fine but we live in an imperfect world and compromises need to be made. Many mmo players love that shit. They do. You dont like it. Compromise is that you can farm cool free ones and they cant buy power.
I agree. This is a compromise I'm willing to accept, but thought it was worth discussing as long as people were willing to listen.
My advice is you take what u can get and dont expect anything to be perfect
I think ultimately that's what's going to happen. Just thought an opinion that was probably shared among others was worth voicing, since intrepid is depending on us to communicate with them.
Seriously, sometimes i think you people are just looking for stuff to cry about because you are bored.
Idk what you mean by "you people," there are many different types of people who don't like cosmetics or mtx cosmetics for different reasons.
Noone is taking anything away from you by buying a nice suit or some wallpaper for the house from the cash shop.
I am definitely torn. I very much believe in doing whatever you want as long as it doesn't affect you. But even cosmetics could pose a problem, specially if they take away from immersion. I think a toggleable feature on the client side would solve this for me.
People will always know which cosmetics were from the shop and which ones requier you to 24/7 nolife the game for a month, so you will get your special attention for those hard to get cosmetics.
That's true and that argument had already been hammered multiple times in this thread
But belive it or not, even people who work 10 hours a day and can only play a few hours at the weekends shouldnt have to look like sh*t.
As mentioned previously, again, I don't think anyone needs to look like trash. You can make all gear visuals have a baseline of looking decent enough. Sometimes some MMORPGs create trashy looking base gear to JUSTIFY a cosmetics shop.
This isnt puttibg them on the same level as you who plays the game like a second job, you still get to have the big house, the epic weapon, the cool mounts and the elite gamer cosmetics. All people who use the cash shop get is the chance to not look like a beggar when they log in to spend sone time leveling.
I was going to assume you're using "you" in a general sense and not at me specifically, but you did use "you people"earlier which I think is directed to me or people like me. As I mentioned before I'm a casual player. No lifting isn't something I can afford to do, and I'm okay with that.
Again, no one has to look like a beggar if the game doesn't limit you to look like a beggar...
And noone will see them as a badass gamer like you are, because everyone knows you dont get this cosmetic for killing 3 bosses in 1 hour with one hand behind your back doing situps while playing and singing the national anthem of belgium, you get it for putting 10 bucks in the cash shop.
Here's a question for those opposed to cash shop cosmetics: How is others' consumption of these items directly affecting your game experience?
I'm not asking this to troll you, I'd genuinely like to know how these impact your gaming experience.
Do you feel that they're undermining the value of rewards you earn through your own time investment in game? If so, please explain how you feel this is happening.
Is your aversion something quantifiable, or more of a knee-jerk "I just know I don't like it"?
Personally, I'm in favour of cash shop cosmetics for one simple reason: additional revenue means that Intrepid has more cash to push out more content faster and of higher quality. Content that we're not paying anything extra to receive.
Without us being able to see the quality of cosmetic items that will be earned directly in game, it's too early to say that its problematic due to a disparity in quality, and unfair to judge Intrepid through the lens of past experience with other games.
This is their first MMO, and it's not as though they have a past record upon which to judge them.
Do you feel that they're undermining the value of rewards you earn through your own time investment in game? If so, please explain how you feel this is happening.
Is your aversion something quantifiable, or more of a knee-jerk "I just know I don't like it"?
I think it's a little bit of both. Because it's an MMORPG it's assumed a big part of it's core is interaction among players and being part of a community. And whether we like it or not, the way we present ourselves via character appearance has some value to most people. Its also traditional way to visually gauge the progress of an individual. This immersion for me is broken when cosmetics become a thing. And it's cheapened even further when those cosmetics could be obtained through out-of-game means. And I'm not even a hardcore/bo-lifer
The argument that a veteran player will easily be able to discern the difference between a hard earned cosmetic and a $5 one. However that really wouldn't help with the immersion specially if cosmetic items become popular.
This is **definitely** a "me" argument, and quite selfish I know. Which is why I do believe having a client side toggle would be nice for people that are also in the same boat.
Ultimately, this isn't a deal breaker for me. Just something I was concerned about since I did feel like it was a participation trophy. Even though you spent money on that trophy. It doesn't reallly make me feel better about it. That part may be a knee-jerk "I don't like it"
All people who use the cash shop get is the chance to not look like a beggar when they log in to spend some time leveling.
Aprox. it will take 2 months to reach max. level. Some of available cosmetic sets already looks legendary a like.
How is it fair for those, who will have to look like a beggar for next month, while cosmetic shop would allow players to skip 2 Months of Game progression in first hour after Game launch. No one want to look like beggar, but for a fair Launch there should not be a cosmetic armor in Cosmetic shop.
In most RPG games you start as a beggar and you gear/level in progression. It's a RPG journey to become badass. Simply skipping Progression will just take a away from intended Journey.
One solution to open Cosmetic shop later after Launch, so every one start on even playing ground.
There is a reason why in most MMO / RPG you start as a beggar. Spoiler alert, it's not for the Revenue
Now, I know it would be nice if the (arguably quite reasonable) subscription fees were enough to finance all of these things whilst also offering a tidy profit to the company operating them, but the fantasy is something we experience in the game.
Steven has said many times, in all 3 interviews (Asmon, Summit/Shroud, and Tim) that "a subscription fee is definitely enough to fund new content and keep servers up" and lauded other companies for adding multiple fees all over. It sounds like he isn't going to actually depend on the cash shop whatsoever.
This is my main worry, because then what is the cash shop funding if not new content/server costs? It sounds like the cash shop is going to essentially fund itself. They are going to make money with cosmetics and use that money to make more cosmetics to sell, instead of making the game better or adding fresh content for people who don't use the cash shop. This is what Blizzard seems to do with their cash shops.
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leameseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2020
I think an cosmetic only cash shop is amazing. This game has no p2w features. The developers still need to get payd, you still want expansions and DLC's. So money needs to come in.
Unfair would be cosmetics only available to buy cash, not earn able ingame. Although everyone would know that it is something bought and no trophy relevance.
Players would be like. I want that too but I don't have the money, but I'm OK spending 20hours of questing to get it.
Some cosmetics should only be achievable ingame to really get that unique feeling. Dungeon boss master,master herbalist.. Those are real trophies and that would be rediculouz to buy in cash shop.
I think a middle ground is definitely possible and not everyone will like it. Thats the way it is. Hoping for the best possible implementation.
Also not everyone has The time to grind/quest for that cool outfit and Still want to look cool. So yeah.. Cosmetic only cash shop
Now, I know it would be nice if the (arguably quite reasonable) subscription fees were enough to finance all of these things whilst also offering a tidy profit to the company operating them, but the fantasy is something we experience in the game.
Steven has said many times, in all 3 interviews (Asmon, Summit/Shroud, and Tim) that "a subscription fee is definitely enough to fund new content and keep servers up" and lauded other companies for adding multiple fees all over. It sounds like he isn't going to actually depend on the cash shop whatsoever.
This is my main worry, because then what is the cash shop funding if not new content/server costs? It sounds like the cash shop is going to essentially fund itself. They are going to make money with cosmetics and use that money to make more cosmetics to sell, instead of making the game better or adding fresh content for people who don't use the cash shop. This is what Blizzard seems to do with their cash shops.
They could go directly into Steven’s pocketbook to pay off all the personal funds he put into the game, but more likely those funds will be used to expand server infrastructure, keep and employ more professional designers, develop new feature independent of big patches, pay GMs, etc.
With the cash shop being purely cosmetics, cosmetics that will require owning the base item first, I really don’t much care if it’s all profit for them. They’ve made a big deal of having nice gear earnable in-game and a dye system to customize your look. There’s gonna be plenty to dress your character up with.
Also while we’re on the topic, have some dyes be rewards for in-game achievements. Half the reason I started going for competitive PvE in ESO was for access to more dyes.
Concerns is not about having Cosmetic shop, but about what type of cosmetic items will be available for purchase. There are unlimited things they can monetize for example - Aura effects, minions, summons, pets(not mounts), Color pallets or colored armor presets, colored weapon effects, small Accessory(attachments...) etc....
But one thing should never be in Cosmetic shop is - Armor set.
Because appearance(Armor set) should represent player Achievements and power state.
In my Experience there is nothing more annoying when in PvP Cosmetics Hide player Class, gearing Power, Weapon. Especially when it is group PvP.
In many cases Cosmetics can give Advantage...
Comments
So while you might have to do an epic quest to earn the Crown of Glory in the game, and you can buy the Crown of Fame in the store and still get a crown, you still won’t have the actual Crown of Glory unless you work for it.
Or if you want to use the trophy analogy, I can go down to a trophy shop and buy a big silver thing and put “WORLD’S BEST HOCKEY PLAYER EVAR” on it, but I still don’t have the Stanley Cup.
And it’s a gripe with no reasoning behind it. This is all based purely on a strange misunderstanding of what Steven was talking about, and Ashes in general.
I definitely agree with you that Steven's meaning of "no participation trophies" was clearly not also considering or including the cosmetic shop.
It was more referencing that when playing this game, you won't be rewarded just for logging in. You have to DO something to get something back. If you want a freehold you have to WORK for a freehold. There's not gonna be a free chest you can open once a week that could just give you a BiS item.
I also think that putting money into something means you DID do something for it. It wasn't free. They didn't just participate, they paid money. It is just a bought trophy as opposed to an earned trophy. Neither is given for free just for being around, which is what a participation trophy is.
Personally I could do without, but I think it's important to give back to early adopters. I never liked cosmetics in the form of draping some skin over items anyway. I'd much prefer something like dyes (which I was informed are already in the game, nice!).
@atama I do like that analogy and definitely agree with that to an extent, but cosmetics also serve a function of visual representation of your character.
I guess I'm coming from a different perspective, where players who are casuals and don't plan on using the MTX shop vs those who are casual players and use the MTX shop.
However demanding that shop items be lower quality, or that they look worse - just because you want to be "the special one" is simply stupid and childish.
Let both in-game and shop items be beautiful. Equally beautiful, and up to the taste of the user.
Secondly, I come to the game to PLAY. Not "work".
Saying that I can't have a cosmetic experience on the same level as "the hardcore" people - is kinda stupid.
Thirdly, the fact that someone else has good cosmetics does not undermine your reward. It's as if you can't feel good about a great-looking item unless all the plebs around you are dressed in trash.
You do the content - you get a great-looking reward. This reward is in no way undermined by the fact that someone looks just as beautiful through other means - including the shop.
Unless, that is, you feel that your gaming experience wasn't worth it in and of itself.
If you are playing the game to be visibly "better" than the casuals surrounding you - you have wrong priorities in life.
Having cosmetic armor will have big impact on games longevity and over all will lower quality of game play.
In my opinion Appearance should represent player Achievements.
Is this mentality limited to cosmetics? Do you also want the same flying mount experience as "the hardcore" people? What about titles? And for the record, I'm not a hardcore player and I'm not going to "work."
Ok no, I never said anything about anyone looking like trash. I prefer that your clothes represent your achievements. However, yes, I do care about my friends checking my character out and seeing what I accomplished, and vice versa. And yes I do care about immersion, so the imagery around me matters.
To be 100% honest, an option to toggle off all cosmetics from my client view would probably solve this in my eyes.
Basically, from Day 1 when Intrepid offered skins to backers that was decided. Appearance and achievement aren’t going to always equate. There are of course always pros and cons; the main benefit here being player choice in what they look like, the downside being that you can’t just look at a character and know right away how powerful they are. But that’s how the game was designed. And it doesn’t contradict any of the goals or values presented by Steven and others at Intrepid by doing it that way.
Now, if you could just buy things in the store that you’d have to earn in the game (cosmetic or otherwise) I would understand the objection. But they have divorced the two.
I’ll share an anecdote that might help put things in perspective. In the early days of WoW they didn’t have a shop where you could buy in-game stuff. At some point they realized that it’s a potential revenue stream so started with a limited store. One item they offered was a flying mount called the Celestial Steed. You can see it below:
It was the very first mount that was sold outside the game. And many players (myself included) thought it looked ridiculous, and there was contempt for players who bought it instead of earning a mount in game. They were often given the pejorative name “sparkle pony” and people riding them sometimes got teased in chat.
I doubt that sort of thing would actually happen in Ashes; it has been more than a decade since then and store purchases don’t have the stigma they once did. But it does show you that just because the developers put an effort into making cash shop items look attractive, that doesn’t mean they will earn respect in the game.
Anything bought in the store was purchased with money someone earned.
Anything earned in the game was purchased with time and skill.
In both cases something had to be earned, so neither qualifies as a participation trophy.
You can’t compare a purely cosmetic purchase to a functionality purchase. They’re not even remotely similar.
That's silly. I'm referring to "earned" through in-game means. Efforts from outside the game (ie monetary game) is uncontrollable from within the game. So e people have more monetary power than others.
Thats fair, specifically for flyng mounts.
Yes some people do have more money, but they will not be able to use that monetary power to purchase cosmetics that are earned in the game. Players won’t be able to buy the costume that’s rewarded from clearing ex. a cultist lair dungeon, though they can probably buy a set of nice looking robes. Players won’t be able the purchase the royal mount rewarded for ex. defeating hundreds of enemies during sieges against your node.
They can buy similar things, similar styles, but the ingame rewards will stand out on their own.
Intrepid wants people to have options to have “cool” characters regardless of their monetary or skill investments. It won’t all be over-the-top edge fests (though I admit I’m weak for that aesthetic), nor will it be sparkles everywhere you look. With widely available Nice and Simple cosmetics and Gleaming Legendary cosmetics both available in-game and assuming the dye system is as robust as I’m hoping, there won’t be any lack of options for non-payers to customize their look how they want. Heck, there’s even a system being designed so players can have little knickknacks on their character’s backpacks just for cosmetic flavor.
1) The game company will put all the cosmetics in the cash shop, not tying it to gameplay at all aka BDO which were the last straw causing me to drop that game, excluding the other problems that game had at launch that completely ruined the experience for me like the tedious gear progression, level grind, etc. (I completely dropped leveling & combat altogether and stayed in my top-ranked house in Velia and only focusing on cooking, farming, gathering for a few months before I quit)
2) The game company will reduce the number of cosmetics rewarded in-game, favoring the cash shop instead aka GW2. The only MMO that has been able to keep me playing for thousands of hours is guild wars 2 also known as fashion wars 2, and I love that game to death but I'll also not fool around and pretend that the cash shop isn't the worst part of the game that completely made a lot of the game's content feel absolutely unrewarding especially when it came to replayability. I literally spent hours upon hours during many weeks completing raids and farming various content for materials to craft the legendary heavy armor for my guardian, and I'll admit that the thrill of getting ever so close to finishing it was really fun and rewarding, but when I finally finished it after all the blood, sweat and tears? Pretty awesome for a few weeks, before their next cash shop item got released which looked way cooler than my legendary armor I worked hard to attain, sure I could now switch my gear stats anytime I wanted which is pretty convenient... but that's about it. After that raids became pretty much dead content to me, I already had enough ascended gear for the characters I played, the few cosmetics I could still get weren't really anything I wanted and while I could go for another set of legendary armor for some other character, it was just not worth the time and energy.
The 'achievement' and 'prestige' of cosmetics were completely non-existent in the game because of the cash shop, but I can still accept it at the end of the day because the game had no subscription fee and you could trade in-game gold to gems to use in the cash shop which allowed you to purchase anything you wanted without spending a cent if you wanted. It made rewards in-game close to worthless since you just had to farm gold to purchase everything you wanted, but I can tell you one thing; if gw2 didn't do these two things (no subscription, and gold to gem conversion) the cash shop would have killed the game and it would be nowhere near as successful as it is today. Ashes on the other hand ARE planning on having a subscription fee, and as far as I know, there has been no talk about being able to trade in-game currency for cash shop currency. THIS makes me very worried for the future of the game, my one and only concern.
So, I find the whole "a cash shop is fine as long as there's no P2W in it" annoying. Isn't the whole reason why P2W is bad because it makes combat or rather, PvP unfun and unrewarding for everyone else? Well, cash shop cosmetics ruins the fun and prestige of obtaining cool items, making my end-game content feel unrewarding. If I went around saying that we should remove cosmetics from the cash shop while keeping P2W items in it because I don't care about the PVP I'd probably get lynched. But that's kinda what I feel about all the people not caring about putting cosmetics in the cash shop because it's "only cosmetics".
I miss the old times before the cash shops were so prevalent. The times when you could just buy a game and could just go to town without ever having to pay anything additional unless they released an expansion. When people would come up to you in-game telling you how cool your gear was, asked how you got it and you could tell an epic tale about each piece of equipment. Those were the times.
Enough of my rant, I'll continue staying cautiously optimistic about the game and wait until launch before judging if the cash shop will completely ruin the experience for me or not.
No, P2W is bad because it means a non-paying player will never be able to progress at the same rate as someone who pays, or they will never be able to have the stat strength a payer does.
I wonder if those same people would be ok with the devs limiting "timed played" to the average of all active accounts per month for every account based on the previous month. If after the first month, the average in game time was 20-30 hours for the month. So the next month that is all the time players were allowed on the server. You know, in the effort to keep things fair. It's a similar argument as both are external conditions from the game. Each is entirely subjective to the individual involved and we would want to make sure everyone has a level playing field.
Seems kind of silly to me, but that is just my opinion and others do not have to agree with me.
In the end, cosmetics are a big thing in games these days and cash shop versions are also very big part of that. If you trust the devs to balance the hard stuff like PvX mechanics and player based economies, then we can trust them to balance the cash shop too.
I assume this is directed at me. Theres a difference between putting the time in the game vs putting the money in the game. I'm one of those people who don't have e time, so this argument doesn't even work.
Edit: I just hope there are more legendary cosmetics in-game than there are in the store. Otherwise, it'll feel like the game is pushing players to the store, and then we're back to BDO.
Though one thing I think will happen naturally is players with in-game legendary costumes will get a special kind of respect and elicit a bigger reaction because others will recognise their achievement/effort.
It could also be the case that some normal gear sets can look just as unique and awesome as some costumes, so that could change the whole equation.
Noone is taking anything away from you by buying a nice suit or some wallpaper for the house from the cash shop.
People will always know which cosmetics were from the shop and which ones requier you to 24/7 nolife the game for a month, so you will get your special attention for those hard to get cosmetics.
But belive it or not, even people who work 10 hours a day and can only play a few hours at the weekends shouldnt have to look like sh*t.
This isnt puttibg them on the same level as you who plays the game like a second job, you still get to have the big house, the epic weapon, the cool mounts and the elite gamer cosmetics. All people who use the cash shop get is the chance to not look like a beggar when they log in to spend sone time leveling.
And noone will see them as a badass gamer like you are, because everyone knows you dont get this cosmetic for killing 3 bosses in 1 hour with one hand behind your back doing situps while playing and singing the national anthem of belgium, you get it for putting 10 bucks in the cash shop.
By that logic buying items from others or buying carries is participation trophy.
U dont like microtransactions thats fine but we live in an imperfect world and compromises need to be made. Many mmo players love that shit. They do. You dont like it. Compromise is that you can farm cool free ones and they cant buy power.
My advice is you take what u can get and dont expect anything to be perfect
Your effort was through in-game means to acquire those items.
I agree. This is a compromise I'm willing to accept, but thought it was worth discussing as long as people were willing to listen.
I think ultimately that's what's going to happen. Just thought an opinion that was probably shared among others was worth voicing, since intrepid is depending on us to communicate with them.
Idk what you mean by "you people," there are many different types of people who don't like cosmetics or mtx cosmetics for different reasons.
I am definitely torn. I very much believe in doing whatever you want as long as it doesn't affect you. But even cosmetics could pose a problem, specially if they take away from immersion. I think a toggleable feature on the client side would solve this for me.
That's true and that argument had already been hammered multiple times in this thread
As mentioned previously, again, I don't think anyone needs to look like trash. You can make all gear visuals have a baseline of looking decent enough. Sometimes some MMORPGs create trashy looking base gear to JUSTIFY a cosmetics shop.
I was going to assume you're using "you" in a general sense and not at me specifically, but you did use "you people"earlier which I think is directed to me or people like me. As I mentioned before I'm a casual player. No lifting isn't something I can afford to do, and I'm okay with that.
Again, no one has to look like a beggar if the game doesn't limit you to look like a beggar...
Again. I agree with this sentiment
I'm not asking this to troll you, I'd genuinely like to know how these impact your gaming experience.
Do you feel that they're undermining the value of rewards you earn through your own time investment in game? If so, please explain how you feel this is happening.
Is your aversion something quantifiable, or more of a knee-jerk "I just know I don't like it"?
Personally, I'm in favour of cash shop cosmetics for one simple reason: additional revenue means that Intrepid has more cash to push out more content faster and of higher quality. Content that we're not paying anything extra to receive.
Without us being able to see the quality of cosmetic items that will be earned directly in game, it's too early to say that its problematic due to a disparity in quality, and unfair to judge Intrepid through the lens of past experience with other games.
This is their first MMO, and it's not as though they have a past record upon which to judge them.
I think it's a little bit of both. Because it's an MMORPG it's assumed a big part of it's core is interaction among players and being part of a community. And whether we like it or not, the way we present ourselves via character appearance has some value to most people. Its also traditional way to visually gauge the progress of an individual. This immersion for me is broken when cosmetics become a thing. And it's cheapened even further when those cosmetics could be obtained through out-of-game means. And I'm not even a hardcore/bo-lifer
The argument that a veteran player will easily be able to discern the difference between a hard earned cosmetic and a $5 one. However that really wouldn't help with the immersion specially if cosmetic items become popular.
This is **definitely** a "me" argument, and quite selfish I know. Which is why I do believe having a client side toggle would be nice for people that are also in the same boat.
Ultimately, this isn't a deal breaker for me. Just something I was concerned about since I did feel like it was a participation trophy. Even though you spent money on that trophy. It doesn't reallly make me feel better about it. That part may be a knee-jerk "I don't like it"
Aprox. it will take 2 months to reach max. level. Some of available cosmetic sets already looks legendary a like.
How is it fair for those, who will have to look like a beggar for next month, while cosmetic shop would allow players to skip 2 Months of Game progression in first hour after Game launch. No one want to look like beggar, but for a fair Launch there should not be a cosmetic armor in Cosmetic shop.
In most RPG games you start as a beggar and you gear/level in progression. It's a RPG journey to become badass. Simply skipping Progression will just take a away from intended Journey.
One solution to open Cosmetic shop later after Launch, so every one start on even playing ground.
There is a reason why in most MMO / RPG you start as a beggar. Spoiler alert, it's not for the Revenue
Steven has said many times, in all 3 interviews (Asmon, Summit/Shroud, and Tim) that "a subscription fee is definitely enough to fund new content and keep servers up" and lauded other companies for adding multiple fees all over. It sounds like he isn't going to actually depend on the cash shop whatsoever.
This is my main worry, because then what is the cash shop funding if not new content/server costs? It sounds like the cash shop is going to essentially fund itself. They are going to make money with cosmetics and use that money to make more cosmetics to sell, instead of making the game better or adding fresh content for people who don't use the cash shop. This is what Blizzard seems to do with their cash shops.
Unfair would be cosmetics only available to buy cash, not earn able ingame. Although everyone would know that it is something bought and no trophy relevance.
Players would be like. I want that too but I don't have the money, but I'm OK spending 20hours of questing to get it.
Some cosmetics should only be achievable ingame to really get that unique feeling. Dungeon boss master,master herbalist.. Those are real trophies and that would be rediculouz to buy in cash shop.
I think a middle ground is definitely possible and not everyone will like it. Thats the way it is. Hoping for the best possible implementation.
Also not everyone has The time to grind/quest for that cool outfit and Still want to look cool. So yeah.. Cosmetic only cash shop
They could go directly into Steven’s pocketbook to pay off all the personal funds he put into the game, but more likely those funds will be used to expand server infrastructure, keep and employ more professional designers, develop new feature independent of big patches, pay GMs, etc.
With the cash shop being purely cosmetics, cosmetics that will require owning the base item first, I really don’t much care if it’s all profit for them. They’ve made a big deal of having nice gear earnable in-game and a dye system to customize your look. There’s gonna be plenty to dress your character up with.
Also while we’re on the topic, have some dyes be rewards for in-game achievements. Half the reason I started going for competitive PvE in ESO was for access to more dyes.
But one thing should never be in Cosmetic shop is - Armor set.
Because appearance(Armor set) should represent player Achievements and power state.
In my Experience there is nothing more annoying when in PvP Cosmetics Hide player Class, gearing Power, Weapon. Especially when it is group PvP.
In many cases Cosmetics can give Advantage...