Loot System

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  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Dicdonya wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

    It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

    We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

    Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

    In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

    In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

    Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

    IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

    In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

    And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

    As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.
  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 5
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Dicdonya wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

    It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

    We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

    Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

    In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

    In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

    Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

    IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

    In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

    And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

    As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

    You clearly don't understand that some people, and guilds, want what's best for their guild instead of what's best for them personally.

    That's fine, I get that.

    But not everyone feels the same.

    You clearly refuse to accept that it is even possible that a guild can exist that isn't horribly corrupt and greedy.

    Just don't join a guild that uses master loot. Simple.

    Stop trying to take away player choice.
  • WarthWarth Member
    Absolutely against Personal Loot Systems. This game is about community interaction. Each and every feature preventing that should not be welcome.

    You can't trust the person holding the master looting rights? Don't join them for a raid or make them use a loot distribution system with equalized chances for everybody (need/greed or bidding).

    Your guild is corrupt? Look for a proper one.

    Somebody ninja looted him? Make him KOS to the point where he will never get out of his EXP debt again.

    Taking away player choice is never the answer. Neither is implementing shit features that go against the basic design principles of the game.
  • LeroherLeroher Member
    edited August 6
    @petesmisc,

    Some of the problems of this thread and reasons of why there's tension all the time are:
    First: your writing style is kind of angry and aggressive.
    Secondly: looks like you are just ranting without trying to reach something fruitful (going in circles).
    Thidly: you use to criticise the game unfairly saying some things like "there's no point in discussing this anyways, because this game will die like every other game that makes people hyped".

    It's really easy to just ask for something while being respectful and nice, everyone will match that energy. Also, if you keep ranting in circles, no one is gonna reach a useful point, making everyone, including you, really nervous. And lastly, debate about the game, fair and squad, dont throw shit at it unfairly and without reason, to just cause dmg (saying "this should be this" is good, saying "this game will die cuz is shit" it isn't).

    P.S. also, looks like you have a really poor view of humankind finding everyone evil and selfish, as some pointed out. I guess it's from real bad experiences you had, and I'm really sorry for it. I hope you find some really good friends to play and enjoy this game or another like you deserve, because I really think an MMO shouldn't be played alone (to fully enjoy it, but I know people will, and there's so many types of persons).

    I wish you the best of luck.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Dicdonya wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

    It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

    We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

    Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

    In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

    In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

    Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

    IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

    In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

    And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

    As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

    You clearly don't understand that some people, and guilds, want what's best for their guild instead of what's best for them personally.

    That's fine, I get that.

    But not everyone feels the same.

    You clearly refuse to accept that it is even possible that a guild can exist that isn't horribly corrupt and greedy.

    Just don't join a guild that uses master loot. Simple.

    Stop trying to take away player choice.

    I never implied every guild is corrupt, but you cannot honestly tell me it’s not easier to abuse Master Loot than it is to abuse Personal Loot.

    You’re the one who’s implying players generally won’t act to benefit the guild if given the choice, which is what a Personal Loot system offers, a choice. I think most players would still be fine moving loot around to those who benefit most from it.
  • The current loot system synergizes with the vision of ashes. Specifically, risk vs reward, embracing conflict yet providing equal risk.

    One thing this incredibly long and heated post is missing, is setting.

    You are arguing that a Corvette is superior to a Jeep in general, but never providing the track.

    In my opinion, the current loot system is the best because it better suits the vision of Ashes. There is no risk associated with personal loot. And I challenge you to find a statement by the dev's indicating that they intend to reduce risk as much as possible in AoC.
  • Nothing about a Loot system is inherent to a vision in the game. There is a system with the risk of 1 guy running away with hours worth of loot vs a system where everyone has to work together to distribute the loot effectively. Gee seems like ML is actually hampering the original vision of the game to me. PL with free trading is the best system you can have.

    Most of the ML supporters aren't even coming to the correct conclusion about what PL even means. I saw one guy bring up how PL makes the game a single player game for crying out loud. You cannot get more fair than PL free trade.

    PL free trade will work identically to ML in a guild setting. So even bringing up guilds as a counter argument is flawed.

    The repercussions of PL. One guy might like what he got and refuse to give it up. Which is fine because it's his drop anyway. Repercussions of ML is people steal from 40 players for hours worth of time wasted. Which can lead to thousands of people quitting the game because people keep forcing ML so they can steal what they want.
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  • NeurathNeurath Member
    It isnt risk/reward if you get no reward. In truth it would be risk/reward with personal loot. I used to use need/greed but because everyone will need to maintain items, need/greed would just have everyone need.

    The same applies to master looters. I do not understand why people defend the old methods when personal loot could be far superior. It is difficult to make suggestions on the forums recently because the vast majority of people use WoW as examples and WoW is a bad example.
  • Well I wish you all well in your crusade. Many others have brought excellent counter points to your views, yet you have gained two who echoes your cries.

    Best of luck
  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 6
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Dicdonya wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

    It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

    We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

    Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

    In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

    In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

    Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

    IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

    In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

    And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

    As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

    You clearly don't understand that some people, and guilds, want what's best for their guild instead of what's best for them personally.

    That's fine, I get that.

    But not everyone feels the same.

    You clearly refuse to accept that it is even possible that a guild can exist that isn't horribly corrupt and greedy.

    Just don't join a guild that uses master loot. Simple.

    Stop trying to take away player choice.

    I never implied every guild is corrupt, but you cannot honestly tell me it’s not easier to abuse Master Loot than it is to abuse Personal Loot.

    You’re the one who’s implying players generally won’t act to benefit the guild if given the choice, which is what a Personal Loot system offers, a choice. I think most players would still be fine moving loot around to those who benefit most from it.

    Here, you completely ignore the given example of someone joining a guild, going on a raid, lucking into an incredibly rare drop, and choosing to /gquit instead of offering it to the guild, even if the guild expressly states that such items would go to the guild bank.

    Just as you say personal loot protects individual player interests, master loot protects guild interests.

    So, I say again, stop trying to remove player choices. If you want automated loot distribution to be AN option, sure. I don’t really see how it’s really different than NBG, but sure. But not at the cost of other loot options.

    You’re the ones demanding we play the game differently.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    PL free trade will work identically to ML in a guild setting.

    And another person shoving their fingers in their ears and refusing to acknowledge the given example.

    You may not like it, but for crying out loud your opinion and your feelings aren’t objective facts and aren’t necessarily shared by the entire player base, as is clearly evidenced in this thread.

    Just don’t join a guild that uses master loot if you’re so vehemently against the idea. It really isn’t that hard. It boggles my mind how you refuse to accept that it’s possible for people to NOT steal loot with ML. I ask again, who hurt you?
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Dicdonya wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

    It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

    We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

    Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

    In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

    In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

    Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

    IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

    In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

    And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

    As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

    You clearly don't understand that some people, and guilds, want what's best for their guild instead of what's best for them personally.

    That's fine, I get that.

    But not everyone feels the same.

    You clearly refuse to accept that it is even possible that a guild can exist that isn't horribly corrupt and greedy.

    Just don't join a guild that uses master loot. Simple.

    Stop trying to take away player choice.

    I never implied every guild is corrupt, but you cannot honestly tell me it’s not easier to abuse Master Loot than it is to abuse Personal Loot.

    You’re the one who’s implying players generally won’t act to benefit the guild if given the choice, which is what a Personal Loot system offers, a choice. I think most players would still be fine moving loot around to those who benefit most from it.

    Here, you completely ignore the given example of someone joining a guild, going on a raid, lucking into an incredibly rare drop, and choosing to /gquit instead of offering it to the guild, even if the guild expressly states that such items would go to the guild bank.

    Just as you say personal loot protects individual player interests, master loot protects guild interests.

    So, I say again, stop trying to remove player choices. If you want automated loot distribution to be AN option, sure. I don’t really see how it’s really different than NBG, but sure. But not at the cost of other loot options.

    You’re the ones demanding we play the game differently.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    PL free trade will work identically to ML in a guild setting.

    And another person shoving their fingers in their ears and refusing to acknowledge the given example.

    You may not like it, but for crying out loud your opinion and your feelings aren’t objective facts and aren’t necessarily shared by the entire player base, as is clearly evidenced in this thread.

    Just don’t join a guild that uses master loot if you’re so vehemently against the idea. It really isn’t that hard. It boggles my mind how you refuse to accept that it’s possible for people to NOT steal loot with ML. I ask again, who hurt you?

    I don’t understand your obsession with ML and this “who hurt you” question. It doesn’t take first hand experience to know that you shouldn’t go near a downed power line.

    I’ve already made it abundantly clear I don’t think every GM is out for themselves, but there is high potential for abuse that you can’t just pretend isn’t there.

    If someone gets a rare drop, and decides to keep it and drop guild, well it’s not like you don’t know their username. It’s not as though you can’t ban that player from your guild events. It’s not as though telling other guilds about that event won’t make them wary of accepting that player on a raid. Word of mouth, reputation, behavior. All that will actually have some weight in Ashes.

    Now say you’re a player in a raid with ML. You’re a dps, been in some passable raid gear for a while and have been carrying your weight. You’re not a “regular” but you raid pretty often with a B-group. The boss drops a legendary mat that you need to have a really significant gear upgrade to finally boost your dps into a potential range to get on the A-group. You’ve got DKP built up and gold just in case, but there’s an A-group dps regular who wants it to repair the gear on his alt healer. So I ask, how many times is it acceptable that first player leave without the mats they need for their gear upgrade? Is it ok if the MLooter prioritizes the A-team multiple times? It’s better for the guild, right? Do you find it acceptable to exclude individuals all in the name of “it’s best for the guild”.

    This isn’t even an example of a MLooter being corrupt, but it’s absolutely demoralizing as the player who gets constantly skipped over. And what exactly can that player do? They need the materials to improve. They complain about being skipped over in the guild and probably get gkicked for arguing with an officer? They complain to other guilds who do the same thing to their own players? Or they just say “to hell with it” and quit the guild.

    Personally I prioritize player choice over a guild’s power to control its players and their loot. I will be avoiding any ML guilds as I find the system inherently unfair and biased. I’ll run with NBG any day and I’ll be fine with that. It’s simply not wanting players to fall into the trap of a guild that funnels into its A-team more than it is willing to support its other members. And no, I don’t believe it’s done maliciously, not in most cases, but it is not a particularly fruitful environment.
  • Caeryl wrote: »

    I don’t understand your obsession with ML and this “who hurt you” question. It doesn’t take first hand experience to know that you shouldn’t go near a downed power line.

    It's mostly just some garbage asmonbald uses to try to stand up for ML. It doesn't actually have any meaning as it's not an actual defense for the system being potentially flawed.
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  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 6
    but there is high potential for abuse that you can’t just pretend isn’t there.

    Never said there isn't potential for abuse, there are recourses for when it is, and you can't deny that some other people in this thread have been extremely melodramatic in their depiction of master looter systems, and anyone who might be in support of them. Such as...
    Repercussions of ML is people steal from 40 players for hours worth of time wasted. Which can lead to thousands of people quitting the game because people keep forcing ML so they can steal what they want.

    As if those 40 people would stick around in that guild if their guild leader did this. Why would you join a PuG using master loot unless there were clear rules laid out beforehand about how it will be distributed? That's just ridiculous. And were those rules not followed, that leads us to...
    If someone gets a rare drop, and decides to keep it and drop guild, well it’s not like you don’t know their username. It’s not as though you can’t ban that player from your guild events. It’s not as though telling other guilds about that event won’t make them wary of accepting that player on a raid. Word of mouth, reputation, behavior. All that will actually have some weight in Ashes.

    And the same can be said for any guild/person who abuses a master looter system, not sure how that's an argument against either side? That would basically be the time of an entire raid wasted because of one person. Same exact situation as the last poster suggests, except at least the person who gets to go "fuck you I got mine" isn't a guild leader, which is better, I guess?
    Now say you’re a player in a raid with ML. You’re a dps, been in some passable raid gear for a while and have been carrying your weight. You’re not a “regular” but you raid pretty often with a B-group. The boss drops a legendary mat that you need to have a really significant gear upgrade to finally boost your dps into a potential range to get on the A-group. You’ve got DKP built up and gold just in case, but there’s an A-group dps regular who wants it to repair the gear on his alt healer. So I ask, how many times is it acceptable that first player leave without the mats they need for their gear upgrade? Is it ok if the MLooter prioritizes the A-team multiple times? It’s better for the guild, right? Do you find it acceptable to exclude individuals all in the name of “it’s best for the guild”.

    An alt is not an A-team member, and it would never be acceptable for an alt to get mats to *repair* gear over a main getting mats for *new* gear. That's frankly a ridiculous example. If a guild were to act as such, you'd likely figure that out well before you've built up the DKP to actually be in that situation, and you could find a new one.
    This isn’t even an example of a MLooter being corrupt, but it’s absolutely demoralizing as the player who gets constantly skipped over. And what exactly can that player do? They need the materials to improve. They complain about being skipped over in the guild and probably get gkicked for arguing with an officer? They complain to other guilds who do the same thing to their own players? Or they just say “to hell with it” and quit the guild.

    The fact that you list "complain to other guilds that do this" as a major recourse tells me that, despite your protests, you really do believe that there are more guilds that would abuse this system than use it properly.
    Personally I prioritize player choice

    Could have fooled me, considering we're discussing removing a choice from players in this here thread...

    Toxic people are going to be toxic regardless, and you wouldn't want to be in those guilds unless you were already part of their in-group regardless. Do you really think one instance of getting gear before getting kicked out is going to make that much of a difference in these situations? There will be as many guilds with good intentions that lose gear to greener-pastures members as there would be bad guilds that abuse master looter if you force personal loot on the entire player base, and people will still be getting kicked from guilds for not following their rules.
  • JexzJexz Member
    edited August 6
    @Caeryl Some guilds have a set point system and if more than one player needs and has the points for the item they roll off for it. This can be better for the guild than the one guy who gets lucky 3X and starts "over-enchanting" When the guild could maybe reach another break point and start clearing faster for more loot.

    What is important is you find out the ML rules before you join the guild. There should be no grey areas.

    Both systems have a place in the game.
  • Personally I prioritize player choice

    Could have fooled me, considering we're discussing removing a choice from players in this here thread...

    You are advocating removing player choice in the long run. With PL with free trade it will be the entire guild's choice to work together. With ML there is no choice. You just hope things work out no matter how stupid the metrics may be for determining how you get stuff is. Only one person gets a choice removing everyone elses.

    So overall what we want is actual player choice. Not the illusion of it.
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  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 6
    With ML there is no choice. You just hope things work out no matter how stupid the metrics may be for determining how you get stuff is. Only one person gets a choice removing everyone elses.

    This is just such a ridiculous statement I don't even really know how to respond.

    You act like guild leaders are all-powerful officials with the ability to control people.

    If a guild leader does this, they won't have a guild anymore.

    If you don't agree with the metrics of a guild's looting rules, find a different guild. This will be the same whether master looter exists or not.
  • JexzJexz Member
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »

    Only one person gets a choice removing everyone elses.

    The Irony
  • Caeryl wrote: »

    In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

    And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

    As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

    I’m sorry but your first sentence is just plain wrong based on your description of personal loot.

    If I understood you right, a boss might normally drop 5 items let’s say. Master loot would give those 5 items to one player to distribute. You then have to hope that one player is good and honest and gives those items out based on some agreed upon method of need.

    Personal loot would take those 5 items and randomly distribute them among the group, assuredly to 5 different players. Now if players that get the random roll loot don’t need the item, but others do, you have to now hope up to 5 players are good and honest enough to distribute those items amongst the group based on some pre determined method of need.

    So now there are 5 chances to get screwed over instead of one. Do you not see that as an issue?

    Now the reason I brought up a new guild member is because a new guild member will almost certainly have less affection and affiliation to the guild than a long time member, thus would logically have a greater chance of being greedy instead of selfless towards the group. I never said a new member shouldn’t get loot, so not sure why you argued that, I was simply asking who would be more likely to act in the own interest if they were awarded some super awesome item during a raid. A new member, or a guild master/officer who has a vested interest in keeping the guild happy and raiding successfully.

    Based on your last paragraph it seems you want the participation trophy personal loot system of wow, and that I wholly disagree with. Especially in a game where most everything is sellable. That will just create over supply and a significantly lower feeling of excitement and accomplishment when you do finally get that thing you wanted.

    Once again in a game where items are not bop like Wow, the drive towards greed will be far higher and lead to plenty of drama when a guildy who gets personal loot you need but they don’t, won’t give it to you because they want the money instead. What reason would they have to give it to you if it’s their personal loot? No other reason than why a guild master would give you loot in a master loot situation, because they are a good person or acting towards the benefit of the guild.


  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 6
    So basically you are just ignoring that the same thing can happen in ML but at a much more devastating effect than in PL. I'd rather trust the 5 randoms than one persons whims. At least the 5 randoms will have no bias also if even something drops not tied to equipment but to cosmetics. PL already dealt with it while ML's choice might destroy the guild.

    To any reasonable person ML is just garbage. Let's move to the future and not use systems most MMO's left behind decades ago.
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  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    To any reasonable person ML is just garbage.

    This is why I can’t take you seriously at all. You casually toss out insults at anyone who disagrees with you and insist you’re the only reasonable person in this thread.

    Meanwhile, we’re over here saying if you don’t like ML, just don’t join an ML guild. It’s the simplest thing in the world. You’ll literally never come in contact with the system unless you choose to do so.

    Oh, wait, I still find your assertion that WoW was a dead game because of ML and PL brought people back one of the funnier takes I’ve ever heard about it, considering their sub numbers don’t reflect that in the slightest.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    If someone gets a rare drop, and decides to keep it and drop guild, well it’s not like you don’t know their username. It’s not as though you can’t ban that player from your guild events. It’s not as though telling other guilds about that event won’t make them wary of accepting that player on a raid. Word of mouth, reputation, behavior. All that will actually have some weight in Ashes.

    And the same can be said for any guild/person who abuses a master looter system, not sure how that's an argument against either side? That would basically be the time of an entire raid wasted because of one person. Same exact situation as the last poster suggests, except at least the person who gets to go "fuck you I got mine" isn't a guild leader, which is better, I guess?

    No, the situation isn’t remotely the same when complaints are brought against the leadership of a guild for allocating loot unfairly. That guild still has its group to raid with, it can still acquire more materials even if a handful of B-teams bail because they’ve been continuously passed over in looting rights. As long as the cliq feeds each other, whoever fills doesn’t really matter much to them, and since they would have the strongest gear due feeding each other over other guildmates, their need for fills continues going down.

    Meanwhile the player who gave their group the middle finger cannot farm any more of that loot because players know not to trust them. Without being trusted by the raiding community, they can’t get groups. Without the ability to get groups to raid with, they cannot get the materials they need to repair that drop they got when it breaks. Even better, the moment they drop guild, they’re free game to be attacked for that rare material they ran off with.

    In which scenario is the offending party more severely penalized?
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 6
    I like how you ignore all of the possible concerns of my argument and then bring up things almost entirely unrelated to it quite often.

    I mean the downsides with ML are factual. What you are going to have to argue is how they are somehow not bad against a system with no downsides. Meanwhile PL with free trade has never been done before in a game. So you don't really have any evidence that it won't work. You can give a good guess I suppose but I don't have any confidence you will come to a relatively correct educated guess.

    Having it be a choice won't work. It's a lazy fix and won't solve the actual problem. Nor is it equivalent with having a choice in game against a system like PL with free trade.
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  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    So basically you are just ignoring that the same thing can happen in ML but at a much more devastating effect than in PL. I'd rather trust the 5 randoms than one persons whims. At least the 5 randoms will have no bias also if even something drops not tied to equipment but to cosmetics. PL already dealt with it while ML's choice might destroy the guild.

    In your system I would not be willing to take anyone other than guildies or trusted friends into a raid if I needed to fill spots. If outsiders are not tied to my guild in anyway and if they ran off with a drop the only thing I can do is go kill them on repeat. When you have a guild the GM tends to not screw his people to much because they can leave. There will always be internal politics in a guild and the GM and officers tend to get the best gear first, but they should also be the ones that are in the most raids and have the most participation. If you as the GM cheat enough guild members over raid drops to destroy the guild nothing is stopping the disenfranchised players from starting a new guild and screwing over the old one. I spent a fair amount of time in EQ1 training mobs on an old guild to wipe their raid because I hated the guild leader. In this game with open pvp you could manage to do so much more to screw them over.
  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    So basically you are just ignoring that the same thing can happen in ML but at a much more devastating effect than in PL. I'd rather trust the 5 randoms than one persons whims. At least the 5 randoms will have no bias also if even something drops not tied to equipment but to cosmetics. PL already dealt with it while ML's choice might destroy the guild.

    To any reasonable person ML is just garbage. Let's move to the future and not use systems most MMO's left behind decades ago.

    You didn’t quote me but it seems you’re replying to me so if I’m wrong I apologize.

    At what point did I ever deny that a guild master could screw the raid over?? Seriously point it out where I said that, you can’t. Please try to read and discuss what I actually said, not what you think I mean.

    How is trusting 5 peoples whims better than one? How will they not have bias? Are you under the impression that only the righteous members of a guild will get the items others need/want? Are you under the impression that only guild masters can have friends who they want to see get stuff?

    Sorry the only unreasonable one seems to be you. I think if you want random loot distribution, go ahead, but I’d rather trust one guild member instead of many to give me loot I need and earn.
  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 6
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I mean the downsides with ML are factual. What you are going to have to argue is how they are somehow not bad against a system with no downsides. Meanwhile PL with free trade has never been done before in a game. So you don't really have any evidence that it won't work. You can give a good guess I suppose but I don't have any confidence you will come to a relatively correct educated guess..

    "I can't prove it will work, but you can't prove it won't work, so we should do it because my idea is better than yours. Oh, and here's a personal insult, because... because."

    We've listed factual downsides of PL as well. You just ignore them, just as you claim I'm doing with ML.

    Except I'm not. Because I'm saying we can have both. And you can just not interact with people that use ML.

    Except...
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Having it be a choice won't work. It's a lazy fix and won't solve the actual problem.

    You haven't given any reasoning for this whatsoever, besides spewing hatred about ML and anyone who even considers it a plausible avenue. You call anyone that even considers it greedy and mal-intentioned, ignoring that there are literal thousands of guilds that have used it with little to no drama. The "actual problem" is your own personal problem with the system, not some objective reality, no matter how much you insist otherwise.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 6
    You also forget that my way is superior for all group types regardless of how they got together. Whether it be a pug, guild, or friends. By arguing for a choice including master loot you deny any negative downsides to master loot. Despite them being the most extreme downsides any system in a video game could ever have.

    You are also ignoring that the gear will be distributed in PL immediately. This doesn't mean that you are trusting 5 people's whims. It means it's their choice what to do from there. This is where the suspicion of abuse to control people comes from. It's why your argument is not an honest one.

    The randoms chosen cannot inherently have a preconceived bias because it was chosen at random. Any preconceived alliances related to gear is up to you regarding that.

    What you are incorrectly determining as a failure of the system is not a failure. Those players who you determined didn't deserve the items that got them anyway. Well you were just wrong. That entire mindset needs to go because it is not what older MMO's were founded on which is their goal to recreate to some extent in this game.

    Gear wasn't even a thought when those games were made because it was assumed the community wouldn't abuse it and distribute it relatively evenly among a group. That is how they worked for the most part.

    It was only since WoW those systems were abused and used in ways they were not intended. That is why so little of playerbase completed anything in those days. They mostly just left the game because of "drama". What they mean as "drama" is someone either Ninja looted or stole a relatively rare raid drop and /gquit.

    The high completion rate of WoW classic is proof of this.
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  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I like how you ignore all of the possible concerns of my argument and then bring up things almost entirely unrelated to it quite often.

    I mean the downsides with ML are factual. What you are going to have to argue is how they are somehow not bad against a system with no downsides. Meanwhile PL with free trade has never been done before in a game. So you don't really have any evidence that it won't work. You can give a good guess I suppose but I don't have any confidence you will come to a relatively correct educated guess.

    Having it be a choice won't work. It's a lazy fix and won't solve the actual problem. Nor is it equivalent with having a choice in game against a system like PL with free trade.

    We can’t pretend PL is a perfect system because there’s no such thing. But it has a significantly lower risk of abuse and the impact of abuse is much less severe than ML. NBG is fairly close, and I do like bid systems as well since well, money.

    Masterloot is really the only system I do not see as worth keeping. It’s functionality can be done in any system with some cooperation, while lacking the inherent issues of ML.
  • JexzJexz Member
    Talking%2Bto%2Bwall.jpg
  • LeroherLeroher Member
    Jexz wrote: »
    Talking%2Bto%2Bwall.jpg

    I'm stealing you this my friend
  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    You also forget that my way is superior for all group types regardless of how they got together. Whether it be a pug, guild, or friends. By arguing for a choice including master loot you deny any negative downsides to master loot. Despite them being the most extreme downsides any system in a video game could ever have.

    You are also ignoring that the gear will be distributed in PL immediately. This doesn't mean that you are trusting 5 people's whims. It means it's their choice what to do from there. This is where the suspicion of abuse to control people comes from. It's why your argument is not an honest one.

    The randoms chosen cannot inherently have a preconceived bias because it was chosen at random. Any preconceived alliances related to gear is up to you regarding that.

    What you are incorrectly determining as a failure of the system is not a failure. Those players who you determined didn't deserve the items that got them anyway. Well you were just wrong. That entire mindset needs to go because it is not what older MMO's were founded on which is their goal to recreate to some extent in this game.

    Gear wasn't even a thought when those games were made because it was assumed the community wouldn't abuse it and distribute it relatively evenly among a group. That is how they worked for the most part.

    It was only since WoW those systems were abused and used in ways they were not intended. That is why so little of playerbase completed anything in those days. They mostly just left the game because of "drama". What they mean as "drama" is someone either Ninja looted or stole a relatively rare raid drop and /gquit.

    The high completion rate of WoW classic is proof of this.

    It’s clear at this point you have no idea what you’re even saying. You say people mostly left WoW because of loot drama, which is patently false since WoW grew Immensely during the period of time where personal loot was not even an option.

    Also if PL was so awesome and master loot supposedly scared everyone away, why was classic a huge success and brought back a TON of old players, including me? Also you say classic wow’s completion rate is somehow proof in your favor yet once again classic has no personal loot. So how in the hell does that prove PL is good?

    Classic completion rates are because there has been more than a decade for people to figure the game out and know exactly how to beat each boss in the most efficient way.

    In fact it would be easier to argue that personal loot which came with mists of pandaria was indeed the beginning of the end for wow, as all data points to the fact that the game has been in constant decline since Mists, which would be the opposite if master loot was somehow the driving factor behind unsubs in the previous expansions.

    Anyways I’m done responding to you, it’s clear you won’t change your mind and like welfare epics and participation trophies, that’s fine you do you, I just hope this game will never bend to your demands.
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