Loot System

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  • JexzJexz Member
    edited August 2
    What is wrong with having individualized/personal loot ?
    I don't see a reason for not having all of these as options.
    Given items are not BoP none of these hinder any social aspects.
    ML has to be delt with in a social aspect
    PL lets people sell and trade for what they need to other players what is not social about that?
    To me PL seems like a no brainer to allow in a PuG.
    I saw one counter argument against PL saying that more items need to be thrown in the loot pool?
    Why does that have to be the case? It could be the same loot pool that a ML would have to deal with but just RNG spreads out the gear to the raid.
    There are pros and cons to all these systems but I see no valid reason to not allow them all as options.
    Hard core guilds would use ML
    chill guilds would use NoG
    PuG's would use PL
    Bid system seems bad to me. I wouldn't want to use it but see no reason to exclude it.
    If you had a big bank roll you could potentially buy items blow market value.

    The only thing I can see not being allowed is to change to ML mid fight/raid.

  • NiraadaNiraada Member
    @petesmisc
    The whole goal is to remove the human element from decision making for loot

    I think you're mistaking your personal goals for those of all involved. I happen think removing the human element from loot distribution is just another item on the list of ideas bad for the health and community of games. What you're aiming for is exactly the opposite of what others have expressed.

    Believing something personally does not make it an objective fact.

    That being said, I think your posts have painted a pretty clear picture as to your outlook, so while I don't agree with you, I feel like I can understand why you feel the way you do.
  • I said this once before in this thread, I created this topic because I want the game to succeed ( looks good so far) and I didn't want to go through all the drama because of the loot system that I started playing MMOs with.

    But it seems that the people that are Master Looter's want nothing else and anyone that proposes something different is a heretic.
    Don't attack me for having an opinion based on experience as someone that wants a single player game, is antisocial, sod off and play something else, don't know anything about MMOs, oh buts its the Community, etc... you can read the responses yourself.

    Based on what has been stated about loot so far from the Chief muck muck, its mostly going to be craft items for toons to craft high level gear, only a small chance of completed gear/weapons/Legendaries.

    So, Personal Loot will lend itself beautifully to such loot drops, trades can be made between players all through out the raid, one crafting item from a boss for another crafting item from a different boss, all depending on where each player is in their crafting and level or what they want/need. In fact I can imagine players not wanting to hear all the whispers to them for trades, is that not SOCIAL enough?

    I can also imaging all the Elitist's/GMs shaking in their boots because they will be in the same "Luck Pool" as the rest of the raid members! Oh yes baby, shake baby shake.

    This game from what is known so far is going to be a crafters paradise (I could be wrong, start your own topic if you think I'm wrong)

    High level items will be in high demand and what better way to "procure" those high level items than through a Master Ninja loot system.

    Happy crafting all you GMs

  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 2
    I've based each thing I've had to say on actual events I either experienced or that has happened in an MMO. My idea is simply to remove Master Looter from the game entirely because that is where the problems are going to happen. Countless Guilds in WoW disbanded over that system. They probably lost half of their entire player base to it. It's just not a good system.

    Personal Loot does not have a set needed drop goal. It can literally drop the same stuff that would drop in Master Looter and it would work fine. It's just assigning a owner to the loot before a guild decides what to do with it which protects people from getting scammed by bad GMs. I've seen many GMs uphold their systems for a while, but when something drops that they really want they disregard the system and just steal it from the guild.

    In any case Master Looter can be used, Personal Loot is literally just a better version of the same thing. The actual reason people did not like Personal Loot was for a reason not even tied to Personal Loot. It was because the trading was limited. So you could not do anything with the gear you obtained after your hour is up since it binded to you. Master Looter had the same drawback.

    I've seen far more hocus pocus bogus stories being made up about Personal Loot than any other system in gaming despite it being a net gain for gaming. Loot is something that traditionally the game decides who gets what automatically. Every other genre works this way but MMO's. Even other multiplayer genres do this and have more social aspects to their games than MMO's do.

    In MMO's having a good guild is a rare thing. Hundreds of guilds exist in each game, but only about 20 of them per server actually ever become something. The reason behind this is the Master Looting system. There are systems that are a positive benefit to be allocated socially among a group. Loot is not one of them. It actually is the opposite. Having it be socially allocated encourages mass toxicity.

    The goal should not be to just do what other games do with Loot. Every other MMO failed with Loot. Especially WoW and that is by far the most played one. Classic wow. current wow is pretty good with Loot except for it being binded too much.

    The goal should be to make a system that allocates Loot to a party quickly and cannot be used by a minority of a group to steal from the rest. It should be to make a system that can only be fair considering the time sink to do content in MMO's. It should not be potentially frustrating to deal with. Master Loot is just flat out predatory in practice.

    The fact is for every case of Master Looting being successful. There are 100 more cases of it not being successful. It does not encourage social interaction as much as it destroys relationships.

    Personal Loot and Democratic Vote should be the only 2 Loot options in the game. Both more social systems in practice and have no negative downsides whatsoever. They even remove the Ninja Looting problem which some people mistake as a good thing for some reason. In most cases where Ninja Looting happened about half of the people involved quit the game.

    What it sounds like to me is a lot of MMO elitists plan to use the systems to take advantage of people to me. I'd rather it just be fair and fun to everyone than piss half the player base off.

    Personal Loot and Master Loot aren't really interchangable systems. Personal Loot works best when Master Loot isn't an option. Master Loot being the option with the most drastic drawbacks should be the one dropped.
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  • SamsonSamson Member
    Why can't the game have both systems? ...And allow guilds and/or parties choose which system to use?
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  • The reason is the danger of Master Loot. It does not work well with coexisting with other systems. People often grief with it or force it against the majority's decision. Using Master Loot is a suspicious action in of itself. It's a predatory system.

    I said what I said above because I know everyone will be happy that way. However, I can't say everyone will have a positive experience with Master Loot hanging around. In general you want to avoid systems where 1 person has all the power. There are parts of the game elsewhere that respects the power of being a king more. You have to earn the right to be that title. The game is already going to be built around predatory systems, but they will be more intelligently implemented than Master Loot. So griefing is limited.

    The problem with Master Loot is it's not a real system. It's whatever I say goes, and other than that there are no rules. Having that option over everyone in the group having a partial say of some kind is just bad. There is no guarantee on an addee's point of view that I'm not going to waste 3 hours just to be griefed.
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  • SamsonSamson Member
    edited August 2
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    The reason is the danger of Master Loot. It does not work well with coexisting with other systems. People often grief with it or force it against the majority's decision. Using Master Loot is a suspicious action in of itself. It's a predatory system.

    I said what I said above because I know everyone will be happy that way. However, I can't say everyone will have a positive experience with Master Loot hanging around. In general you want to avoid systems where 1 person has all the power. There are parts of the game elsewhere that respects the power of being a king more. You have to earn the right to be that title. The game is already going to be built around predatory systems, but they will be more intelligently implemented than Master Loot. So griefing is limited.

    The problem with Master Loot is it's not a real system. It's whatever I say goes, and other than that there are no rules. Having that option over everyone in the group having a partial say of some kind is just bad. There is no guarantee on an addee's point of view that I'm not going to waste 3 hours just to be griefed.

    I understand what you're saying... But I don't see the problem of having the choice of using the master loot system. If a guild chooses to use the master loot system when raiding or whatever, that should be fine as the raid members should already be aware that master loot is in place. If a guild or group chooses to use a different loot system, that should be fine as well. I just think it would be good to have different options.

    If people do not like what loot systems their current guilds are using, they are free to find another group to join.
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  • I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet, but do people take the lack of binding into account? When you get a good item, it's not bound to you, you can trade it. When you use the good item, you're good. When you get a better item, you can give the old item to someone else. You don't just vendor your good sword, you give it to the off-tank because he can make good use of it.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 2
    I think Master Loot should have extreme counter measures in place. I would be fine with it existing if it required every single person in the party/raid to say yes to it, it was not changeable while in a dungeon/raid, and it was not the game's default option.

    Even then I would rather it not be even in those cases. The raid can learn a new system and be better off for it anyway.
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  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I think Master Loot should have extreme counter measures in place. I would be fine with it existing if it required every single person in the party to say yes to it, it was not changeable while in a dungeon/raid, and it was not the game's default option.

    Wasn't wow's need/greed system the default?

    Also, keep in mind that personalized loot means every single person in the raid gets an individual loot chance. Instead of a boss dropping the unique epic dagger once, to be given to one player in the raid, the boss drops 40 unique epic daggers, one for each raid participant, even if they can't use it or already have it. It's so much more value it's not even funny.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 2
    Beekeeper wrote: »

    Also, keep in mind that personalized loot means every single person in the raid gets an individual loot chance.

    No it in fact does not. They don't have to copy and paste the entire system as is. They can literally program it so that it does the same thing as dropping from the boss, then taking the item from there, and then distributing it.

    Since we are talking about a game in Development they have the ability to take a base idea and make it the best version of itself it can be. It depends how much junk they want to drop. There are ways to implement the same system but with less and more meaningful drops too though.

    It's why I have such a problem with Master Loot. It is not a good system and it is not possible to improve it because of how Communist it is. With personal Loot it has a few limiters as opposed to none at all so you can tweak them to make it better.

    It's not limited to every boss dropping the same stuff either so don't even bring that up. However, aside from that keep throwing out possible downsides. If the Devs see it they can make personal loot even better and use that instead. XD
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  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 2
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Beekeeper wrote: »

    Also, keep in mind that personalized loot means every single person in the raid gets an individual loot chance.

    No it in fact does not. They don't have to copy and paste the entire system as is. They can literally program it so that it does the same thing as dropping from the boss, then taking the item from there, and then distributing it.

    Since we are talking about a game in Development they have the ability to take a base idea and make it the best version of itself it can be. It depends how much junk they want to drop. There are ways to implement the same system but with less and more meaningful drops too though.

    It's why I have such a problem with Master Loot. It is not a good system and it is not possible to improve it because of how Communist it is. With personal Loot it has a few limiters as opposed to none at all so you can tweak them to make it better.

    It's not limited to every boss dropping the same stuff either so don't even bring that up. However, aside from that keep throwing out possible downsides. If the Devs see it they can make personal loot even better and use that instead. XD

    What you’re asking for isn’t “Personal Loot.”

    What you’re asking for is quite literally need before greed, except everyone auto-rolls need without the button ever appearing.

    I legitimately don’t understand how or why you think this system is preferable to the base MMO loot systems.

    I ask again, who hurt you!?!? You and Pete keep absolutely insisting that master loot is evil, always abused by horrible, awful greedy people, and impossible to be used in a beneficial manner. That’s not even being dramatic. Clearly, as evidenced by the responses of others, there are just as many people who have not experienced these issues. I am one of them. I have never been a guild leader of a raiding guild. I have been in many raiding guilds. All of them used master looter. None of them had issues.

    Lastly, your assertion that WoW lost half its player base because of master looter might be the funniest thing I’ve read on these forums. I would bet my bank account WoW lost more people because of personal loot than master loot.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Beekeeper wrote: »

    Also, keep in mind that personalized loot means every single person in the raid gets an individual loot chance.

    No it in fact does not. They don't have to copy and paste the entire system as is. They can literally program it so that it does the same thing as dropping from the boss, then taking the item from there, and then distributing it.

    Since we are talking about a game in Development they have the ability to take a base idea and make it the best version of itself it can be. It depends how much junk they want to drop. There are ways to implement the same system but with less and more meaningful drops too though.

    It's why I have such a problem with Master Loot. It is not a good system and it is not possible to improve it because of how Communist it is. With personal Loot it has a few limiters as opposed to none at all so you can tweak them to make it better.

    It's not limited to every boss dropping the same stuff either so don't even bring that up. However, aside from that keep throwing out possible downsides. If the Devs see it they can make personal loot even better and use that instead. XD

    What you’re asking for isn’t “Personal Loot.”

    What you’re asking for is quite literally need before greed, except everyone auto-rolls need without the button ever appearing.

    I legitimately don’t understand how or why you think this system is preferable to the base MMO loot systems.

    I ask again, who hurt you!?!? You and Pete keep absolutely insisting that master loot is evil, always abused by horrible, awful greedy people, and impossible to be used in a beneficial manner. That’s not even being dramatic. Clearly, as evidenced by the responses of others, there are just as many people who have not experienced these issues. I am one of them. I have never been a guild leader of a raiding guild. I have been in many raiding guilds. All of them used master looter. None of them had issues.

    Lastly, your assertion that WoW lost half its player base because of master looter might be the funniest thing I’ve read on these forums. I would bet my bank account WoW lost more people because of personal loot than master loot.

    A better question:

    How do you NOT see the huge issue with putting all the loot in the hands of one person?

    Need/Greed is just everyone calling Need even if it’s a lie. Why not go straight into game-distributed loot? Nearly everything in Ashes is going to be freely tradable, so if your agreement with the guild is to pass loot to another player, then you can do that easily.

    Meanwhile if you go into a raid on good faith, then the Master Looter steals everything or (most often, favors his buddies first) then you’re SoL with no recourse.

    It’s a matter of it being impossible to fix the issue of someone stealing loot, but it’s absolutely possible to fix it when someone gets the “wrong” loot.
  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    The reason is the danger of Master Loot. It does not work well with coexisting with other systems. People often grief with it or force it against the majority's decision. Using Master Loot is a suspicious action in of itself. It's a predatory system.

    Omg I never thought of myself being a predator maybe I used master looter just wrong when I never ninja in those last 10 years I seemingly really suck as an officer.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    It's why I have such a problem with Master Loot. It is not a good system and it is not possible to improve it because of how Communist it is. With personal Loot it has a few limiters as opposed to none at all so you can tweak them to make it better.

    Communist? What are you talking about?
    The only authoritarian ideas I see around are from those people trying to enforce a removal of master looter.
    In my first post I outlined that there should be multiple options and in my second post I outlined why different loot systems have different advantages.
    In the liberal west we aren't enforcing stuff on others if we don't need to.
    That's what nazis and communists would do, we don't.

    To be honest I am not sure how to feel about this.
    All you do is throwing out that subversive accusation that every master looter is a "predator".
    And I am not the reincarnation of hitler therefore I feel kind of offended by now.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I've based each thing I've had to say on actual events I either experienced or that has happened in an MMO. My idea is simply to remove Master Looter from the game entirely because that is where the problems are going to happen. Countless Guilds in WoW disbanded over that system. They probably lost half of their entire player base to it. It's just not a good system.

    Holy craps, ok my counterargument for that: Personal loot is just not a good system.
    You know there was also a lot people bitching around every time someone who didn't deserve it just got a bis legendary back in legion.
    Imagine people actually left guilds because of that crap as well, because a lot of people are awfully loot driven.
    Random loot distribution is awful because it doesn't take anything than the tagging of a mob into account.
    It is simply not enough to enable proper loot distribution.
    I still would not demand its removal if it were in the game because I am no communist.
    Though I don't think it will be implemented anyways since it has conceptual issues with the base design of items.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    In any case Master Looter can be used, Personal Loot is literally just a better version of the same thing.

    No it is literally not it is the complete opposite in fact:
    Master looter is 100% control over who gets an item.
    Personal loot is 0% control over who gets an item.
    How could they be the same if they are the complete opposite?
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    The goal should be to make a system that allocates Loot to a party quickly and cannot be used by a minority of a group to steal from the rest. It should be to make a system that can only be fair considering the time sink to do content in MMO's. It should not be potentially frustrating to deal with. Master Loot is just flat out predatory in practice.

    The thing is there are master looter systems exactly for the reason of people sinking a loot time into stuff while others don't.
    e.g DKP systems are used because some people show up every raid while others only once in a while show up.
    Imagine having wiped 100 times at a boss now one guy who contributed zero to the strategy comes in as substitude, boss gets killed.
    Who is more deserving a guy with 100 wipes or the substitude?
    But I guess you never experienced that so you cannot understand.
    Because of that the guild leadership which also sinks in a lot more time then other players to ensure a quality guild makes a decision of whom to give the loot based on the DKP (=time investment).

    If you would stop permanently accusing EVERYONE who you mention in combination with master loot of being a predator or a thief it may be obvious to you that almost every guild using master looter has a system in place to enable making an objective decision on who to give the items.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    The fact is for every case of Master Looting being successful. There are 100 more cases of it not being successful. It does not encourage social interaction as much as it destroys relationships.

    If it is a fact then prove it or it didn't happen.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Personal Loot and Democratic Vote should be the only 2 Loot options in the game. Both more social systems in practice and have no negative downsides whatsoever. They even remove the Ninja Looting problem which some people mistake as a good thing for some reason. In most cases where Ninja Looting happened about half of the people involved quit the game.

    Like I explained before you can make a democratic loot system with master looter.
    If they add a run of the mill master looter there is literally nothing more nesseccary to enable a demoncratic system.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    What it sounds like to me is a lot of MMO elitists plan to use the systems to take advantage of people to me. I'd rather it just be fair and fun to everyone than piss half the player base off.

    Sounds like you think I am the reincarnation of Hitler again.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Personal Loot and Master Loot aren't really interchangable systems. Personal Loot works best when Master Loot isn't an option. Master Loot being the option with the most drastic drawbacks should be the one dropped.

    Ok once again if you don't like master loot get up make your own party and set personal loot.
    If the majority wants to have personal loot you won't have any issues finding people.
    But that is, once again, just your unproven claim.
    Caeryl wrote: »
    A better question:

    How do you NOT see the huge issue with putting all the loot in the hands of one person?

    There is no issue because I can make a party myself and I am no lootwhore (just as many more aren't).
    Since I started playing MMOs over 10 years ago I never once kept an item just because or to take advantage of others.
    I was officer in almost every guild I have ever joined and it was extremely rare that I ever suspected somebody of taking advantage of the loot systems.

    Literally every story with an issue you could tell starts like:
    "I joined this random guys party....."
    So like I already tried to signify in my first post it is not a systemical issue of master looter but the people or the world around you.
    If you want to improve the quality of your raiding surround yourself with good comrades not parasites.
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Need/Greed is just everyone calling Need even if it’s a lie. Why not go straight into game-distributed loot? Nearly everything in Ashes is going to be freely tradable, so if your agreement with the guild is to pass loot to another player, then you can do that easily.

    If your guild wants to do that there is no problem, the main issue is that people on this thread are demanding master loot to be removed.
    Which is highly oppressive to the people who like to use it.
  • Don't use a risky strategy with a PuG. Gather a social circle you can trust. RR provides a good compromise.
  • Yuyukoyay: great post

    Grievousness:
    "In the liberal west we aren't enforcing stuff on others if we don't need to."
    "That's what nazis and communists would do, we don't."

    OMG Grievousness, now I understand where your coming from!!
    Ok, so have you seen Seattle and Portland lately? "The liberal west" really?, its destroying the country!

    So what do you mean by "if we don't have to" , is it, do it my way and I wont throw a rock at you?

    I'm from the upper mid-west, I wonder if we said what part of the country we are from vs. what loot system we want, if that would correlate, hmmm.

    But enough of that.

    Having Personal loot in game is my desired option, if Master Loot is kept, I would never join a Guild that uses it and I would never join a PUG that uses it. I I'm willing to bet 100 stacks of lumber that if its kept, it will be the predominant system. All elitists/streamers will be using it, PERIOD.

    Some clarification about Personal Loot:
    1. Boss Loot table is finite, not everything drops for everybody. You may get one plate item and 2 trinkets one week and the next it could be two cloth pieces and a ring or something like a Pet. I think it does take into consideration the number of people in the raid. So a twenty man would have more peeps with loot than a 12 man.
    2. After a long while (when most every one is geared) yes, you may get a item that you already have and since you can trade it, you generally put it up for roll or just give it to someone that does not have it. After all, its your Guildy, right?
    3. If a shitass player gets a Legendary, the question is, why is the shitass player in your raid!? The loot system does not make any qualifications except what class you are (Mages/Priest/Warlock wear cloth and that's the gear that drops for them)
    4. In PUGs, if a shitass player gets in (low dps/hps or always dying) at some point the raid lead will boot them, especially when they get to the harder boss deeper in the dungeon and the raid is wiping.

    I and many others SEE ALL the benefits of PL and none of the downside of ML.
    As I said many times, work arounds had to be implemented by Guilds to overcome the EVIL that is Master Loot.

    To those that where honest brokers using the ML system, you are a exception rather than the rule, I congratulate you but I still would not want my loot to be decided by a popularity contest (roll, yes).

    MMOs are played by real people with their individual personalities and quirks, their ambitions and desires and I honestly believe that somehow, all that comes across in chat and play in general. Has something to do with the sound of your voice and what they call "Spooky action" behavior in Physics

    There have been some really great posts for/against PL, I hope the Chief muck muck is reading this thread, because aside from the Loot System, he has another problem with World Boss loot distribution, there is a thread for that already but it really needs more contributions.




    .

  • CORRECTION
    I'm from the upper Central part of the country:)


  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 2
    How do you NOT see the huge issue with putting all the loot in the hands of one person?

    Because I wouldn’t use a master looter system unless I trusted the person who was being designated as master looter.

    Because I’ve spent literal thousands of hours under a master loot system and literally only once had an issue such as this. And that issue resulted in that person being blacklisted from the the community as whole.

    I know it’s hard for you to comprehend how that might be a thing a community can do since you all come from WoW where servers don’t matter because everything is connected, but on a game with self-contained servers, when you ninja loot, you ruin your reputation, and people won’t group with you. Full stop.

    It’s also clear that a lot of you haven’t played WoW very long, as before all the servers were connected, need before greed worked perfectly fine for pugs.

    The system that is being proposed here as an alternative is literally just NBG with everyone rolling need. If that’s what you want, just do that. There. Problem solved. Everyone has an equal chance at loot all the time. Literally the exact same thing.

    Also, Pete, your suggestion of a 20man group getting more than a 12man is exactly what a lot of us are trying to avoid.

    It blows my mind that you all can continue insisting that you’re right and everyone agrees with you when there are multiple people here disagreeing with you.

    Master loot is “evil”... What a joke.

  • "Also, Pete, your suggestion of a 20man group getting more than a 12man is exactly what a lot of us are trying to avoid."

    I just said that in a large grp, the same percentage of toons would get loot (10 toons 2 loot=20%, 20 toons, 4 loot= 20%), but that is NOT the issue, the devs can drop as much or as little loot as they wish, its HOW one gets the loot.

    No one is "insisting" anything, we are raising an issue that has plagued the MMO community from the get go.

    PL is NOT Nb4G, everyone has the same chance based on a loot mechanic that no one controls and has an equal chance for everyone, some weeks are good, some are bad (for a player) but we are all working for each others benefit are we not? Also, in the type of loot drops proposed in AOC, everyone will have a NEED!
    If there is loot that only a Mineral experts can use than only the mineral experts would have a chance to get that loot, same for gems or lumber or whatever, we don't know yet what will be dropping and how it relates to professions, at this point all we can do is try and convince the Chief muck muck that ML is EVIL

    In small population MMOs, yes, its very easy to ostracize a EVIL player, WOW is huge. But this is NOT about WOW, its about the proposed loot System in AOC.

    "I know it’s hard for you to comprehend how that might be a thing a community can do"
    STOP being so personal, you have no idea what anyone can comprehend, you merely have an opposing view on a topic.

    If the whole purpose of a Loot System is to distribute loot, why not do it in a none biased, none emotional way, don't we all want our fellow players/Guildys to have loot? Why the fear?
    Is it that the King of the Prom wants loot before that jackass nerd (as perceived by the Prom King and his court) over there in the corner, is that the fear?

    As I said, Elitists/Streamers/GMs/their buddies, are King of the Prom, deserving of anything that smacks of rare or legendary and they will make all kinds of rationalizations (excuses) to get it and the sheep will just nod their heads (or leave or be kicked out or not invited to future raids).





  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 2
    Pete, let me try to break this down for you.

    In Need Before Greed, if everyone in the raid votes Need on every item, it is entirely RNG who gets what item.

    In a “personal loot” system where the amount of loot is the same regardless of group size, it is entirely RNG who gets what item. (By the way, this wouldn’t be “personal loot.” The whole point of personal loot is everyone involved gets some sort of reward from every boss, be it items or gold.)

    They are literally exactly the same. The only difference is you wouldn’t see the invisible roll in the personal loot system.

    Does that make sense?
    Stop being so personal!

    > Calls everyone that doesn’t agree with him an elitist.

    This has got to be trolling at this point.
  • PL does NOT give everyone loot! Some systems do give everyone gold regardless of the loot system (its just part of the game, even trash gives gold/silver, its all distributed equal among the raids/group members
    1K gold for 10 players = 100G each.

    Again, what the loot is IS NOT the issue nor how much loot.

    "The whole point of personal loot is everyone involved gets some sort of reward from every boss, be it items or gold"

    As I said, items or gold that goes to everyone has nothing to do with PL or ML or Nb4G or anything else. If the devs want each Boss/Trash kill to drop some gold, so be it, its divided equally among the raider/grp automatically (it does not have to be dropped at all, its what the game devs want to do).

    Loot on the other Hand, gear,craft items, minor/Major/epic or Legendary are another matter.

    Also, the devs can decide, hey I'm going to have trash drop minor "stuff" and random peeps can get it, again not part of any loot system, just a mechanic that devs choose to have in the dungeon to make things interesting.

    Those are things that devs can implement in the game as "fun", "unexpected" etc... Its not going to be a Legendary (but I suppose they can do whatever they want).

    Anyway, PL does not drop loot for everyone, you are running out of arguments my friend. (as mentioned , gold/silver/minor crap/trash items don't count)

    Elitists/Streamers/GMs/their buddies is just a generic term I'm using for everyone and his/her uncle, I'm not calling you that, never have! In fact we have does same groups now, the loot system has no barring on it. You are just someone that has an opposing view from mine.

    "Pete, let me try to break this down for you."
    Oh, thanks for breaking it down for me, I needed that.

    Hey, RahkstarRPG, what part of the country are from from? (doing an experiment)









  • "> Calls everyone that doesn’t agree with him an elitist.

    This has got to be trolling at this point."

    So here we are finally, anyone who disagrees with him has got to be a TROLL

    RahkstarRPG, do you work for the company developing AOC by any chance?

  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 2
    The way you're trying to pretend like you don't have a horribly toxic mentality towards anyone who supports non-personal loot systems is really something else.

    I think I'm done here.

    Wait, almost forgot. Just want to say your entire last post made next to no sense. Asking what country I'm from is pretty hilarious, and you still haven't acknowledged that, again, a "personal loot" system that doesn't change what drops based on group size is exactly the same thing as a need before greed system where everyone rolls need. Everyone has an equal chance at all loot, all the time. Exactly the same.

    Okay, now I'm done.
  • RahkstarRPG:
    "Asking what country I'm from is pretty hilarious"

    No, I asked - take a deep breath and read it again:
    Hey, RahkstarRPG, what part of the country are from from? (doing an experiment)
    A simple question, west, central, east, se, nw, etc. (I'm from Illinois btw)

    I also asked:
    RahkstarRPG, do you work for the company developing AOC by any chance?
    Again, a simple quest, yes or no

    "The way you're trying to pretend like you don't have a horribly toxic mentality"
    Again, how do you know I'm trying to "pretend" about anything, I stated my intentions many posts ago.Are you some kind of clairvoyant? Did you graduate from the Umbrella Academy? (ok, so the Umbrella Academy reference may be over the top, but its funny if you get it)

    ====================
    PL system has been described by me and others several times, but you keep wanting to redefine it, ain't gana work buddy, you have no argument.

    People that play under the PL system know what it is, what its limitations or flaws are and from what I read, they would rather have that over ML any day of the week.

    I get it, you like and want the ML system, that's fine, make your argument, others want PL, they have made their argument, only the Chief muck muck can make the final decision.

    All this thread is meant to do is point out the dissatisfaction of the loot system as listed in the WIKI, yes, I want a PL like loot system and I started this thread, stated my reasons for it and allowed others to voice theirs.






  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 3
    you still haven't acknowledged that, again, a "personal loot" system that doesn't change what drops based on group size is exactly the same thing as a need before greed system where everyone rolls need. Everyone has an equal chance at all loot, all the time. Exactly the same.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 3
    @petesmisc

    Watch this @ 52:47.



    No, you're alone. If guilds want there to be a master looter, then they should be given that option. Sure, there will always be guilds that act selfishly and gear up officers and leaders first. You should leave those guilds and join others that distribute loot more fairly. Also, you cannot expect to be given top tier gear when you've just joined the guild. They will obviously give that gear out to others in the guild i.e. those who have been there longer than you. Once you build a certain level of loyalty and trust, then you start getting gear.

    Ultimately, only the fair ones will rise to the top, while the selfish guilds scramble at the bottom.

    In PUGs however, master loot can be seen as a bad thing, which is exactly why there will be MULTIPLE loot rules in AoC.

    You've joined this forum for barely 3 days, and you're already insulting the game director by calling him a Chief Muck Muck and lazy. I think you need to calm down. The game is a solid 2 years away from release. If something is disliked by the majority of the player-base, they will fix it.

    Trust Intrepid to know what they're doing.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    petesmisc wrote: »
    The largest population MMO
    The McDonalds of MMO's is not something other MMO's want to emulate.

    It is not a good game. It has not added anything worth keeping to the genre. It is a game targeted at - and thus populated by - children.

    This.

    We're not here hoping for another WoW. We want the opposite of WoW.
    A lot of us hate WoW. WoW ruined the MMORPG genre for real fans of MMOs.

    The less like WoW this game is, the better.

    Except even WoW players disliked the removal of Master Loot. OP has never joined a good guild I guess.
  • SamsonSamson Member
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    @petesmisc

    Watch this @ 52:47.



    No, you're alone. If guilds want there to be a master looter, then they should be given that option. Sure, there will always be guilds that act selfishly and gear up officers and leaders first. You should leave those guilds and join others that distribute loot more fairly. Ultimately, only the fair ones will rise to the top, while the selfish guilds scramble at the bottom.

    In PUGs however, master loot can be seen as a bad thing, which is exactly why there will be MULTIPLE loot rules in AoC.

    You've joined this forum for barely 3 days, and you're already insulting the game director by calling him a Chief Muck Muck and lazy. I think you need to calm down. The game is a solid 2 years away from release. If something is disliked by the majority of the player-base, they will fix it.

    Trust Intrepid to know what they're doing.

    Thank you @CaptnChuck This is a great example as to why Master Loot should be available as an option within the game.
    sig-Samson-Final.gif
  • you still haven't acknowledged that, again, a "personal loot" system that doesn't change what drops based on group size is exactly the same thing as a need before greed system where everyone rolls need. Everyone has an equal chance at all loot, all the time. Exactly the same.

    The Loot table from a Boss in a Raid Dungeon is set at development time, during a raid, some of the loot is available to the raid. Its loot table may have something for each class, plate, leather, cloth ring/ticket but what drops off of that loot table during "your encounter" is limited. Some week only the cloth users are happy, next week a Plate piece may drop or perhaps a cloth and a plate Each Boss has their won loot table and each encounter drops some portion off of that loot table (for the most part, they will not be the same).

    But regardless, none of that matters! Its how the loot is provided to the player, that's what this thread is about.
    Yes everyone has an equally chance to get loot but if the loot is cloth and you wear plate, it will not drop for you (WOW has a gear restriction, Mages, Priests, Warlock wear Cloth, Warriors wear Plate, Warriors will never get a Cloth drop in a Raid Dungeon). Rings and some trinkets can be used cross Class's

    You still own me two answers!
    =============================================
    "We're not here hoping for another WoW. We want the opposite of WoW.
    A lot of us hate WoW. WoW ruined the MMORPG genre for real fans of MMOs.

    The less like WoW this game is, the better."

    AOC is NOT going to be like WOW, its going to be its own thing, a crafters paradise (at least thats my impression)

    There seems to be a lot of Hate of WOW, all great things are built on top on previous great things, to deny that WOW has made some contributions is a blind hate, no need for it. (I don't want to defend or defame any MMO, so stop even mentioning WOW, its a poor argument for ML)

    =======================================
    "No, you're alone. If guilds want there to be a master looter, then they should be given that option. Sure, there will always be guilds that act selfishly and gear up officers and leaders first."

    I don't think so, the thread proves it, just read with an open mind.

    =================================================
    "You've joined this forum for barely 3 days, and you're already insulting the game director by calling him a Chief Muck Muck and lazy."

    The "Chief muck muck was/is tongue in cheek, are you him? I couldn't remember the Fat Cats name who is funding AOC (fat cat=tongue in cheek) so I used Chief muck muck

    Chief=boss
    muck muck =Borrowed from Chinook Jargon muckamuck (“food”). In the sense "person of authority", it is short for " high muckamuck "

    So, calm down, its a complement!

    As far as "Lazy thinking" , yes, I think its LAZY THINKING to have those generic loot systems, after 20 years of MMO experience/data

    =================================
    "The game is a solid 2 years away from release. If something is disliked by the majority of the player-base, they will fix it."

    The MOST reasonable response yet (and one I have stated in my previous comment, way back up, search for it)

    So, you don't want potential players views to be known now? You want to wait two years? Ok, its you game.

    =================================
    " Sure, there will always be guilds that act selfishly and gear up officers and leaders first. You should leave those guilds and join others that distribute loot more fairly. Ultimately, only the fair ones will rise to the top, while the selfish guilds scramble at the bottom.

    In PUGs however, master loot can be seen as a bad thing, which is exactly why there will be MULTIPLE loot rules in AoC."

    Is that you argument against PL? And the multiple loot system is the problem!

    =========================================
    As to the video, I'm not sure what "time line" you wanted me to see, can you specify (I have seen the video btw, days ago) I don't see what it has to do with PL, provide a specific time stamp that I can go too, that we all can go to.

    ====================================================================================
    Well, I must say, this was a great effort by someone, great research, now I know the Company is reading the thread! Don't be afraid! Light/Sunshine is a great disinfectant.

    Oh, btw, I know Asnomd would love to get Master Loot back, or at the very least in Mythic+ Dungeons (seen him say so in one of his streams).
    But that's OK, he is a Streamer and he's looking out for his best interest, nothing wrong with that.

    So, here we have it, the only thing I wish for now would be to know who in this thread is working for the Company, just for honesties sake. Otherwise, I'm happy that the Company is reading the thread!

    Hey, have a look at the Loot Distribution thread also.












  • if the loot is cloth and you wear plate, it will not drop for you

    Yeah, that's how it works in WoW.

    But that's not how it works here, because all classes can use all gear types.

    Fucks sake man, you don't even know something so basic about the game and you're already here crying about loot rules?

    I'm not dignifying your dumb questions with a response because A: You assume I'm from the US, which is funny and B: If I were an employee, I wouldn't be here arguing with you.
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