Loot System

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  • ZhabZhab Member
    Hello everyone. Unlike most of you guys my mmo experience is fairly limited, so this whole topic was informative to me.

    In scientific circles their are various grades of evidences and "anecdotal evidences" is trash tier. It seems clear to me that some people had wonderful personal experiences with ML and therefor have an hard time seeing any issues with it while others had horrific personal experiences and therefor have an hard time seeing how such a system can even be tolerated. Be careful how much credits you give to personal experience... as weird or counter intuitive as that may sound.

    The Asmongold video was quite interesting because of the chat that can be seen in it. The streamer is naturally defending ML and you would expect his legion of fans to agree with him. But even among his personal legion of fans you can see a surprisingly high number of people hating on ML. This tells me that the community at large is at the very best divided on the merits of ML system.

    The devs could be taking an hard stance on looting systems and as players we could only hope that the choice they end up making happens to align with our personal preference, but I have to respect the decision to offer multiple choices. As it stands to reason to me that different looting system would perform better or worst according to different scenarios, situations or type of player groupings.

    But I have to say that the bidding system is growing on me the more I think about it. The key component being that the bid money goes to those who get nothing. Under other system it is quite possible to walk away from a raid or event with absolutely nothing. It is also quite possible for this to repeat over and over again (for whatever reasons) while you see other players being rewarded with loot.

    Even if leaders of powerful guilds or in game market leaders are likely to have way more gold with which to bid on items, in the end that big money being thrown around ends up in the pockets of poor players who can then make good use of it. The rich don't just claim the loot and add that to their existing fortune, they have to pay for every pieces (recirculating the gold around the community). The player may not get the legendary item but the massive gold payout from the epic bid wars could be use to buy a whole "great level" equipment set. Alternatively the gold could be use to buy materials and perhaps self craft an awesome item which is custom made for your character specifically. You could also use to gold to buy or invest into a freehold or other such things. But more importantly you could save it up and from raid to raid and eventually have the "war funds" to make that one massive bid to win a legendary item yourself even thou you are otherwise nothing special in the MMO world. The power players of the MMO might be winning such bids on the regular but even a nobody who puts in the time and efforts could eventually get there hands on a piece of it.

    A purely RNG based looting system would also give every player a chance but it does have issues. Bidding does reward time and efforts as the gold used in bid had to come from somewhere. If you have several millions of gold to spend on bids you are clearly very invested in the game. You did not somehow get the legendary item on your first raid ever while being carried by the team all the way thanks to rotten luck giving everyone a bad taste in their mouth. On the flip side you could be very invested and be a prominent member of the MMO world but the RNG loot systems seemingly just hate your guts for some reason.

    In this entire discussion the bidding system received little attention but I'm very curious to hear what the veterans have to say about it. Is there some fatal flaw that I'm not seeing ?
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    edited August 6
    Zhab wrote: »
    <snipped a bunch for length>

    In this entire discussion the bidding system received little attention but I'm very curious to hear what the veterans have to say about it. Is there some fatal flaw that I'm not seeing ?

    Issues with bid systems usually have more to do with how easy it is to generate gold in a game, than anything wrong with the bidding itself. With enemies in Ashes having Smart-Loot, gold won’t be dropping from most enemies, so there shouldn’t be too much gold flooding in from simple mob grinds. Hopefully this means inflation won’t go sky high as quickly as it does in other games.

    Though since gold isn’t a dropped-on-death item, I have to wonder if banking it will be possible, and if so, would players be able to bid with funds from their bank?
  • JexzJexz Member
    edited August 6
    @Zhab The bid system favors people with big pockets and knowledge of market values. They can bid on everything below market value. Sell everything and come out on top of everyone else. Not necessarily a bad thing as the player is rewarded for market knowledge but anyone who doesn't is punished for not knowing market prices. I'd rather PL or NG in a pug or ML in a guild.(And that is why I personally don't see how this is even an argument there should be an option for both) In the case of a legendary dropping good chance no one will have the actual market prices saved up so who ever has the most gains big. So again if you have deep pockets youl'd probably want this system especially if you know market prices. If you don't have deep pockets you probably wont want this system. This is the one system I could do with out.
  • ZhabZhab Member
    edited August 6
    @Jexz The big value here is that you do get something. You never ever get screwed over. From what I can see the ML system shine when in the hands of a trustworthy guild master of great integrity. If you have the privilege of being part of such a guild then great. Use ML.

    As for pug or where trust might be an issue, personally I think I would rather use a system where I'm guarantied something rather than a system where I can get screwed by RNG over and over and over again (I have an history of horrible luck). It doesn't matter how deep someone's pockets are... if they keep dumping their gold on you you will eventually be able to out bid them at least once. You also get something even when the loot would otherwise be useless to you. You ALWAYS get something. You just spent 1-2 hours on that epic raid and you WILL get something to show for it. With the PL system you absolutely can be completely screwed over and leave with nothing.

    On the flip side, say you do over pay for an item. Are you completely screwed over ? No, because you do indeed leave with the item you wanted. The other guy was richer than you but wasn't about to over pay for it. Allowing you to actually get the item. Again you do not walk away from a raid with nothing... ever. That is what appeals to me.

    But regardless of which system is in use those who understand to market value of things will tend to be richer and richer player will tend to have better stuff regardless of who did the looting. I think this is unavoidable in a game where stuff isn't soul bound and freely tradable. I believe that if a player want to stand on top of the mmo from a resources stand point then that player has better learn the value of things. I cannot fathom a game designed in such a way where it is the clueless players standing at the top.

    Side note: Just to be clear, I'm in favor of having choices. I'm not saying there should be one system that everyone has to use.
  • ZhabZhab Member
    edited August 6
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Though since gold isn’t a dropped-on-death item, I have to wonder if banking it will be possible, and if so, would players be able to bid with funds from their bank?

    I have no idea on the specific of how things are currently designed, but I would imagine that it would be better for the poor players if the economic giants can duke it out with their entire fortune. The more insane the bids the greater the gold reward for the others. The more gold that was sleeping in a vault is recirculated into the economy.

    That being said I seriously doubt that the rich and powerful would choose to use the bidding system. They are likely to be in positions where they get to be the loot master and therefore distribute any and all loot as they please. They may otherwise prefer an RNG system rather than risk having to spend a fortune on a bid. Might as well buy it on the market rather than bother raiding at that point.

    With all that in mind. PL in pug might screw you over or maybe you'll win big. Bidding in pug among standard players will never ever screw you over but you also never win big either (every sweet loot being paid for). But in the case of a really rare item, poor players will probably still end up paying way less than market value for it. Especially if rich players do shy away from the bidding system.
  • NiraadaNiraada Member
    edited August 6
    @Zhab I agree with your assessment, although there might be some technical limitations to implementing an integrated bidding solution for loot directly within the game's systems, and it might require some organisation on the part of the player base (a la the old GDKP runs in WoW, which I quite enjoyed back in the day).

    I have yet to see a reasoned argument against players being able to choose which looting system they prefer when forming their groups, as it offers the most flexibility and player agency.

    I've used Master Loot in the past and have never once had an issue, but I also don't participate in PuG raids where Master Loot has been designated. I think that each individual has a minimum level of responsibility to safeguard their own interests, and if there are those that choose not to be cautious or vocal about looting rules at the time of joining a group of strangers... While I won't say that they deserve what comes, I do have to question their level of forethought.

    For me, most of my play time is in a guild environment with certain standards of conduct. I've seen guilds that had loot drama in them previously, and while some might see that as an example of why PL should be enforced, I don't agree. Again, I believe it comes back to individuals having a minimum level of responsibility to protect their own interests.

    If you are in a guild that values loot more than it's members relationships, I'm not sorry to say that you've made a poor choice. While there are certainly situations that can crop up unexpectedly, if you're committing any significant amount of time to playing with the same group of people, for you not to have a general idea as to the group relationship dynamic is a tough sell for me.

    If I believed (as some in this thread appear to) that every person I encounter is simply waiting for me to drop my guard in order to take advantage of me... that absolutely no one was trustworthy in any capacity, well... I'd probably play a single player game instead of Ashes.

    Why?

    Because most of bosses' loot will be gatherables. Gatherables you drop when you die, even as a non-combatant. All those people that I distrust would have one more incentive to kill me after the loot is distributed.

    After all, it's not like you can teleport away.

    Besides, if I'm truly that alone... I mean, it might as well be single player anyway.

    So yeah. Let people choose their looting rules, and maybe exercise a little due caution.
  • NiraadaNiraada Member
    edited August 6
    I felt like I should make a follow-up post about a subject I touched on, but wasn't the focus of my previous post. This isn't about the loot system directly, but about the idea of grouping with people you distrust.

    PL is not a solution to ensuring people get loot fairly in Ashes even in PuGs for the simple reason that going into a dungeon or raid with people you don't trust is an easy way to get yourself killed and looted.

    You clear the last boss, you get your drops, and now you're in the back end of a massive complex with a bunch of people you don't know, and someone tells you to give up your drops or they're going to kill you, or even just leave you there alone to try and get past the respawning trash mobs, how are you going to handle it?

    You can't just teleport to safety.

    Heck, one bad actor in that group could have some of his shady guildmates following him, waiting to ambush you. Non-combatant isn't going to protect you, and even if you fight back, you've still got a good chance of losing your drops on death.

    Now what happens if they're also waiting at the nearest spawn to kill you again?

    PL isn't going to protect your interests for you. If anything, I think it more likely to make people in PuGs easy targets.

    Something for those who have a dismal view of humanity to think on.
  • NeurathNeurath Member
    I was unaware there are two definitions of Personal Loot.

    The Personal Loot I referred to was where everyone gets loot. So all 40 People in a 40 Man Raid would gain loot, not some random people.

    There is no loot system that can 100% protect what you have gained (Unless its an Item Drop).

    I doubt PuGs will even be very common because of the Death Penalties associated with Ashes.
  • NiraadaNiraada Member
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    My position is to remove ML and replace it with any system that has no downsides. PL with free trade is the only thing I got so far, but there can be other answers. I'm fine with any system where 1 player doesn't decide the entire system by themselves. Where the entire group has to decide as a team to do it. One that doesn't rely on the good will of a single person or risk catastrophic losses.

    The raid can just kill you afterwards to take any drops you get regardless. Best not to rely on their goodwill to leave safely.
  • ZhabZhab Member
    edited August 6
    @Niraada You bring up interesting point about "gatherables". I know that completed items can and will drop from raid and that those cannot be taken from you unless you are corrupted. But "gatherables" are indeed something very easily stolen.

    @Neurath the modified PL system that people have been suggesting in this topic has been described as equivalent to using need before greed where everyone automatically selected need for everything. Except the system would spread the items around and make sure that a single player doesn't get everything out of extreme luck on distribution.
  • NeurathNeurath Member
    Ah okay, I didn't play Mists of Pandaria, so I wasn't aware of the details of the PL Loot system.

    Well I'm against that type of Loot System then :)
  • ZhabZhab Member
    edited August 6
    Niraada wrote: »
    @Zhab I agree with your assessment, although there might be some technical limitations to implementing an integrated bidding solution for loot directly within the game's systems, and it might require some organisation on the part of the player base (a la the old GDKP runs in WoW, which I quite enjoyed back in the day).
    I kind of glossed over this part, but to be clear I'm talking about a bidding system that the devs of AoC are already looking into. It would be a looting system option hard coded in the game that players can select and not some honnor system among players. See the wiki. Available options:

    Loot Master
    Round-robin
    Need before Greed
    Bidding System

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables
    Bidding system
    Intrepid are investigating a potential bidding system, which allows players to bid on items instead of rolling for them.[18]
    - The highest bidder wins the item.
    - The gold then goes into a pool that is split among the rest of the party members.
  • Bidding System doesn't sound too bad. However the 3 options can't operate properly with ML in the game.
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  • You already scared away all of the players from Vanilla. They were never going to come back and they are why a lot of the competitors are successful.
    The people who left were probably racists anyway. Those who didn't leave due to the chinese influence probably got sick of the game. Which could have been because of ML.
    Numbers in a game growing is not indicative of ML working. It is the main cause of them leaving though.

    These are some of the hottest, and most absolutely nonsensical, takes about WoW I have ever seen.

    How about some numbers/examples besides your own personal feelings to prove these wild claims?

    Because it’s pretty common knowledge that WoW’s most successful timeframe was BC-WotLK.
  • JexzJexz Member
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    However the 3 options can't operate properly with ML in the game.
    Sorry if I missed the previous explanation of this. Can you repeat for me why this is the case?

  • NiraadaNiraada Member
    edited August 6
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Bidding System doesn't sound too bad. However the 3 options can't operate properly with ML in the game.

    Do you have any actual evidence to back that assertion? Let's try to establish minimum levels of credibility here.

    You keep saying that other loot systems can't function when ML exists, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. Numerous past titles functioned with multiple loot systems in place, regardless of any problems might have existed with individual implementations of any given loot system.

    And before you regurgitate the same anecdotes you have previously, I'm asking for actual evidence. Not speculation and hyperbole. Can you point to a particular title where other loot systems ceased functioning due to ML's existence?
  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    You also forget that my way is superior for all group types regardless of how they got together. Whether it be a pug, guild, or friends.

    No it is not, I have made a logical conclusion already that master looter is superior in certain situations
    It's on page 2, can you not read?
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    By arguing for a choice including master loot you deny any negative downsides to master loot. Despite them being the most extreme downsides any system in a video game could ever have.

    The logical structure of your argument is absolute trash there is no sense to be found here.
    1. If you want something to be included you don't automaticly deny negative downsides,
    that's not in the least self evident.
    3. The downsides aren't the most extreme the game isn't blowing up or killing itself because it has master looter.
    This is self evident since master looter was extremely used by the biggest chunk of the MMO community for most of the time without the community imploding or whatever you would describe as most extreme downsides.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    You are also ignoring that the gear will be distributed in PL immediately. This doesn't mean that you are trusting 5 people's whims. It means it's their choice what to do from there. This is where the suspicion of abuse to control people comes from. It's why your argument is not an honest one.

    Master looter is not about controlling people what you cannot do to begin with.
    Apart from all those guys selling brainwashing mashines on ebay of course.
    And this post is one of those where the suspicion comes in that you are just here to troll.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    The randoms chosen cannot inherently have a preconceived bias because it was chosen at random. Any preconceived alliances related to gear is up to you regarding that.

    Yea but this is not exactly about equity and it never really was.
    Just because you hate human decision making it does not make personal loot any more preferable.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    What you are incorrectly determining as a failure of the system is not a failure. Those players who you determined didn't deserve the items that got them anyway. Well you were just wrong. That entire mindset needs to go because it is not what older MMO's were founded on which is their goal to recreate to some extent in this game.

    Sorry but you have literally no clue which mindest older MMOs were founded on.
    I doubt you even have any clue what modern MMOs are about since you quit WOW in cata and the huge downfall of WOW was later down the line.
    Watch this:

    Because that concept is what good MMOs where founded on and they literally make jokes about kiking people because they just absorb loot.
    Even over a decade ago that was a thing, who could have figured.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Gear wasn't even a thought when those games were made because it was assumed the community wouldn't abuse it and distribute it relatively evenly among a group. That is how they worked for the most part.

    It absolutely was watch the video I posted before just another time pls.
    Again you have no clue what you even talk about.
    If you have no clue at least spend an hour on google and educate yourself.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    It was only since WoW those systems were abused and used in ways they were not intended. That is why so little of playerbase completed anything in those days. They mostly just left the game because of "drama". What they mean as "drama" is someone either Ninja looted or stole a relatively rare raid drop and /gquit.

    The playerbase didn't complete much because at that time internet culture wasn't a thing, people had shitty pcs lagging in every raid, Internet connection was extremely bad and a hundred more reasons.
    The list of reasons why progression was slow is literally endless.
    Acting like you can directly point at one and say: "that's the sole reason" is simply insane.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    The high completion rate of WoW classic is proof of this.

    Have you actually informed yourself????
    People literally cleared Onyxia without gear, they made a complete "naked run"


    So assuming your argument from before wouldn't be complete trash, people back then could have literally cleared most raids with master looter since gear didn't matter to begin with.
    It is of course not even remotely related to ANY OTHER REASON.
    It is just because people ninja looted with master looter even nakeds could clear it.


    Caeryl wrote: »

    We can’t pretend PL is a perfect system because there’s no such thing. But it has a significantly lower risk of abuse and the impact of abuse is much less severe than ML. NBG is fairly close, and I do like bid systems as well since well, money.

    Masterloot is really the only system I do not see as worth keeping. It’s functionality can be done in any system with some cooperation, while lacking the inherent issues of ML.

    Now for the second time:
    I made a post at page 2 where I pointed out in which way the different loot system are good or almost perfect.
    Maybe try reading it.

    Also you are mistaken master looter is the most important to keep
    Master looter is the most flexible system of them all since it has no set way how the party decides to distribute the loot.
    What that means in practice is that a guild decides on a trustworthy person to give master looter so he can enforce the decision made by the group.
    Because of that you can have loot distributed however you (as a party) see fit.

    You can make a democratic vote as a party, you can bid for it, you can have a lootcouncil make the decision, you can have any variant of DKP, you can make a priority based system based on bis lists people can hand in at the beginning of new tiers, there are basically unlimited options.

    If you don't have Master looter you take away all those potential ways of distributing loot.
    This unreached level of flexibility which greatly enables different communities to do their own thing, is absolutely unique to master looter.

    The problem brought up that the loot master can be a bad person was mostly neglected since it is totally uncommom to actually occur in good guilds.
    Deciding on one trustworthy person is in fact such a reliable system that most governments have one person in charge of the whole executive power as well.
    The only areas where problems actually occur more frequently is in the pug world.
    But if you sign up for a pug you can just make sure the loot masters reputation is good, make a party yourself or search until you find a party not using master loot.
    There are a ton of options.

    And this is all repetition of older posts by the way.
  • Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Bidding System doesn't sound too bad. However the 3 options can't operate properly with ML in the game.

    Bidding systems have in fact been used already and have only been possible because of master looter.
    Commonly people bid on items, the master looter hands out the item in exchange for the money.
    At the end of the raid the money that was paid for the items was split between the raid members.

    This system is perfectly fine if you for example don't need items but need to make money.
    Others may prefer it to ensure getting their loot.
  • SandmanSandman Member
    petesmisc wrote: »
    Well, so far the comments are terrifyingly amazing to me!
    The McDonald's of MMOs? McDonald's is a very profitable franchise with millions eating their food every day, don't make lite of that!
    They will have other loot systems, yes NeedB4Greed is another looser and of course, round robin, all system from fifteen years ago!

    There is nothing interesting in this MMO, I like the idea of the Class system although I think Guild Wars had that over a decade ago (where are they now?)

    The point of a MMO is to play with others (PVE) and against others (PVP) and in return for the time spent I expect to have something to show for it and not be scammed by a loot system.

    Everyone talks about a community/love and peace blah blah blah, but the fact is, children are playing the game, greedy/nasty/ just plain dip shits will be playing the game, no amount of expectation or desire for honesty or fairness or "oh he's my guildy or oh, he/she didn't get anything yet" is involved when it comes to loot, everyone wants it, that's what everyone plays for. And its even more emphasized in this game because of the need for high level crafting items

    So, for me, I'm not holding my breath for this game, the loot system as it currently is defined tells me all I need to know.

    You're right, there is nothing here for you. Please move along. Don't need this in the community nor want to have to try to convince you of something you don't want to see.
    > Door
  • Generally speaking though bidding systems in Ashes won't work properly like they did in wow.
    In WOW everything was soulbound in Ashes it isn't.

    That basically means that people will bid up to the usual trading price of the item and then immidiately stop bidding, since overpaying the market place price makes no sense.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Generally speaking though bidding systems in Ashes won't work properly like they did in wow.
    In WOW everything was soulbound in Ashes it isn't.

    That basically means that people will bid up to the usual trading price of the item and then immidiately stop bidding, since overpaying the market place price makes no sense.

    Not really. Yes (mostly) everything will be freely tradable, but it won’t be freely or widely available. It won’t always be convenient to retrieve purchase items even in an Economic metro ZOI. Those items might not even have a good market if you wanted to get them elsewhere.
  • Caeryl wrote: »

    Not really. Yes (mostly) everything will be freely tradable, but it won’t be freely or widely available. It won’t always be convenient to retrieve purchase items even in an Economic metro ZOI. Those items might not even have a good market if you wanted to get them elsewhere.

    If it doesn't have a price because there is no market it's even better you can define the price.
    Then the thing defining the highest bid will be the max estimated selling price.
  • vhbeninvhbenin Member
    I said this in a topic and i will say it again. Make a voting system for loot and let the players in the group/raid reach a consensus
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Caeryl wrote: »

    Not really. Yes (mostly) everything will be freely tradable, but it won’t be freely or widely available. It won’t always be convenient to retrieve purchase items even in an Economic metro ZOI. Those items might not even have a good market if you wanted to get them elsewhere.

    If it doesn't have a price because there is no market it's even better you can define the price.
    Then the thing defining the highest bid will be the max estimated selling price.

    I think that’s fine too if people bid in an effort to profit off the materials (that’s what everyone strives to do in some way or other). The primary logic behind pricing/bidding usually is:
    1) Availability - Can I run this content multiple times, or is it limited either by time or by amount? Can I find this item in other places?
    2) Rarity - What’s the likelihood this item drops again for someone?
    3) Use - Can I use this item immediately or would I have to upgrade it first? Does my class have proficiency in this gear?
    4) Convenience - Assuming I can get it elsewhere, is it easier to pay more now and get it immediately? If I needed to go out of my way to transport it from another source, is the time worth it?

    Access to funds of course is important, but aside from discussions about inflation, it’s not really something that determines and item’s general value.
  • wow, what a discussion has been had here. @zhab thanks for bringing the conversation back to a civil manner your quite the respectable fellow.

    @Yuyukoyay I honestly suspect your just trying to stir up trouble but I could be wrong, you may have had bad experiences with ML because your attitude towards other people make you come off as someone I would never want in my guild.

    I like to help my guildies grow with me so sharing loot seems like a good idea to me.
    I also believe in democratic process so a guild electing an individual to the distribute the loot based on an agreed system would seem to be the safest way to protect everyones interest. This requires that someone have ML to stop griefing happening.

    I really like the bidding mechanic I can see it being especially popular close to economic nodes where market value would be better known.

    Personal loot goes against core design philosophies that I've heard IS say "not everyone is going to get a participation reward" and I think it is detrimental to the looting system as a whole because it incentives going to raid just to ninja loot as a person with no a affiliation can take gear on the first run they do and then guild hop.

    In a pug setting I think most players will insure their time investment by either picking a reputable raid leader or just joining a raid that is using a system such as nb4g or bidding.

    this being said with raids being open world I can see pug groups having a clear disadvantage because smaller guilds are given passive buffs they invest into them. So I see coalitions of guilds forming to try and safe guard these larger world boss to bring economic benefits to their node all this content is going to be highly contested at end game, I just don't see pug groups standing a chance against organised guilds which may even have an epic flying mount capable of doing aoe damage if they own a castle.

    player interaction is being given a front seat in this game so why would powerful guilds want to reward a one off disposable person who brings nothing to their guild?
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