Loot System

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  • Uh, idk about y'all but most mythic raiding guilds i was in HATED when master loot was taken away. because it made loot random. I just loved getting the same loot 4 weeks in a row....

    My guild used EPGP(DKP Reloaded) for years, and the way our system worked was the more you participated in the runs, the higher your priority rating was (which was your EP divided by your GP) you got the drop. You earned effort points (EP) by downing bosses as well as participating in guild events. You gained Gear points when you were awarded gear which had a set value based on the value of the piece in question. When you divided the EP by your GP you were given a priority rating (PR). Which is how our loot distribution was designed. Highest PR was given first choice at drops they wanted, and when they were given the gear, it increased their GP which lowered the PR they had. Basically it was a system that allowed people who showed up all the time to get the pieces they wanted. But all of this went out the window with master looter going away. All because of the pug community.

    Personally I would like it so you can only do master looter in a guild group. Because you made the choice to join that guild, and if they aren't being fair about the loot, just find another guild, or pug and pray.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    petesmisc wrote: »
    The largest population MMO
    The McDonalds of MMO's is not something other MMO's want to emulate.

    It is not a good game. It has not added anything worth keeping to the genre. It is a game targeted at - and thus populated by - children.

    What game is this?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    petesmisc wrote: »
    The largest population MMO
    The McDonalds of MMO's is not something other MMO's want to emulate.

    It is not a good game. It has not added anything worth keeping to the genre. It is a game targeted at - and thus populated by - children.

    This.

    We're not here hoping for another WoW. We want the opposite of WoW.
    A lot of us hate WoW. WoW ruined the MMORPG genre for real fans of MMOs.

    The less like WoW this game is, the better.

    "real fans" lol.
  • They've said in the past that there will be multiple settings for loot to choose from:
    1. Need/Greed
    2. Master loot
    3. I think round robin was mentioned
    4. Some sort of bidding system - basically you bid gold and the biggest bid wins.

    None of these have been tested yet, so when those systems (including party, raid and drop system) are fleshed out we will see what options are available.
  • First off, it was never my intention to defend or defame any MMO past or present, it was to share my BAD experience with the loot strategies as listed in the WIKI for AOC.

    But since WOW has been brought up and used as an example :neutral:
    For the person who's guild used DKP and was sad when Master Loot was removed because now they could not use DKP,, did it ever occure to you that the DKP system was invented by players to compensate for the EVIL that was Master Looter? And even in a DKP system, which my guild also used, Drama still arose because people will always come up with reasons to want loot before someone else. In my guilds case, someones reasoning was, well, I have 5 pieces of that gear, this item will be my sixth and finale piece, therefore I should get it even though I don't have the DKP, and all the sheep nod their heads. And the person with the high DKP now has to wait another week or two or three for that item to drop.

    As far as Mythics+ goes or Raids/Dungeons, loot CAN be given away if its something that you already have/dont want or you can sell it to a player (in cases where its a PUB). The problem many people have is with the weekly chest, where they may get the same item over and over again (I believe that will be addressed in the next expansion).

    The whole point of this discussion is the loot system for AOC as described in the WIKI:
    Master Looter
    Round-Robin
    Need before Greed
    Bidding

    All the above systems with exception of Bidding where part of the largest population MMO ever created.
    And the system SUCKED, specifically Master Looter.

    The only system that is free of bias/greed, human rationalization or any other BS that someone may come up with is PERSONAL LOOT!

    Now keep in mind that in WOW, the PERSONAL LOOT can be rolled on or given away or sold to any player in that Raid or Dungeon (up to a certain time frame, 1 hr I believe)! So in a Guild, that is well geared, that's done all the time (no sale though)

    Bottom line Personal Loot removes all the drama, all the head aches of trying to distribute loot equitably.

    If you want a system that easily lends itself to abuse, than the above four listed systems are for you.
    And no, turning off the option will not work, as greedy people with not turn it off, they will abuse the system.
    Also, finding a honest guild or a group that you can trust is fine on a small MMOs with a small population but in large MMO/pop worlds, the guild master and officers will tell you to leave if you don't like it. And in a MMO, playing solo is not really an option, even for crafters (as is alluded for AOC).

    So, lets keep to the topic, the above four list loot systems (as stated on the WIKI).
    Master Looter -HORRIBLE
    Round-Robin - Silly
    Need before Greed - People will LIE
    Bidding - will gold be that plentiful?










  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited July 31
    Can you really just not accept that some people have a different opinion than you about this?
    petesmisc wrote: »
    Bottom line Personal Loot removes all the drama, all the head aches of trying to distribute loot equitably.

    Sidenote, I've absolutely seen issues with people that are lucky with personal loot not wanting to share their wealth with other guild members for the benefit of the guild as a whole.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member
    edited July 31
    Can you really just not accept that some people have a different opinion than you about this?
    petesmisc wrote: »
    Bottom line Personal Loot removes all the drama, all the head aches of trying to distribute loot equitably.

    Sidenote, I've absolutely seen issues with people that are lucky with personal loot not wanting to share their wealth with other guild members for the benefit of the guild as a whole.

    Think you are missing the point of personal loot. Sharing is a choice not required. The Whole idea you don’t like someone not sharing their personal loot with you proves why there needed to be personal loot to start with
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Personal loot systems are far superior to shared loot. Saves a ton of grief and in a free-trading game allows for trades between players who agree to it, rather than letting someone cheat the group (master looter), lie for rolls (need and greed), always favor rich players (bids), or play favorites (DKP always ends up that way)

    Most drops will be materials, items will be rare so there won’t be floods of legendary gear. Legendary materials depend on a master gatherer looting the enemy, but aren’t guaranteed, so at worst you’ll have a chunk of common-rare materials and a few legendary mats flow into the game from a dungeon clear.

    Any system besides personal loot are guaranteed to be abused and be generally unsatisfying to the majority.
  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited July 31
    Aardvark wrote: »
    Think you are missing the point of personal loot. Sharing is a choice not required. The Whole idea you don’t like someone not sharing their personal loot with you proves why there needed to be personal loot to start with

    I didn't say with me, did I?

    He said it removes all drama, which in established guild focusing on gearing for progression, it absolutely does not, even in WoW.

    Just saying.
  • BeekeeperBeekeeper Member
    edited July 31
    Won't personal loot completely remove the need for committment? Without personalized loot, it's not just a bonus, but a REQUIREMENT to vet your team members. You need to build trust between the players, and the group and the group leader in particular, for things to go smoothly.
    With personal loot, you just turn up, do your thing, loot the boss and disappear into the night, never to be seen again. In WoW, it compounds the problem that the dungeon finder creates, where nobody talks to anyone and it's really more coincidental that there are other people next to you as you farm yourself up to the next ilvl target.
  • Skuld wrote: »
    The worst loot system of all time is the Bidding system in my opinion.
    I'm bad at making money in games so I'm not one of those players who have several billions in their pockets but there are always quite many people who have that money. So that makes it kinda impossible for me to get anything from bidding because I can't bid much.

    ....

    I don't know what bidding systems you have seen until now but every single one I have seen redistributes the winning bid money between the party members that got nothing. So if you have 4 members in your party and the average loot bids for 750 gold then one person gets the item and the remaining thre get 250 gold each.
    So even if you are constantly lack money the bidding system gives to you and will at some point (number of drops per run / number of players = number of runs until you can afford the average item) allow you to succesfully bid the item you desiree.
    And if you don't desiree anything and just run for the story/exp/a friend you get at least money.

    Admitetly it is not my favorite loot system either but it works.
  • GrimzarGrimzar Member
    petesmisc wrote: »
    Drama
    well isn't drama fun? :) now you can track unfair master looters and make their in-game experience horrible by killing them over and over and over xD

    i think AoC will be driven by drama

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Grimzar wrote: »
    petesmisc wrote: »
    Drama
    well isn't drama fun? :) now you can track unfair master looters and make their in-game experience horrible by killing them over and over and over xD

    i think AoC will be driven by drama

    we have already had a lot of drama in ashes *guild fair flash back*
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  • WMC51WMC51 Member
    What if world bosses has the normal loot table plus a global loot table there everyone involved rolled for 1 or 2 items but they are a tier lower than the main drops? Just throwing it out there.
  • WMC51 wrote: »
    What if world bosses has the normal loot table plus a global loot table there everyone involved rolled for 1 or 2 items but they are a tier lower than the main drops? Just throwing it out there.

    The more obvious application would be quests that ask you to have some participation in killing a world-boss. Changing the fundamental way loot works because something is rare makes no sense when that is specifically the point.
  • I didn't say with me, did I?

    He said it removes all drama, which in established guild focusing on gearing for progression, it absolutely does not, even in WoW.

    Well, not sure what guilds you are/were part of but Personal Loot completely removes DRAMA from progression guilds. The loot that drops is YOURs, no one will ask for it (except in PUGs where people will beg you). Progression guilds want their raid members to gear up! If you do get an item that you know you will not use or you already have, than you put it up for roll (but you don't have to, its just the right thing to do since there a is small/no real benefit to keeping it).

    As far as group finder or Raid finder, these formations are with people from across the country's servers, in 99.999% of the time, you will not have anyone from your guild or Server on with you, the only common objective is to kill the BOSS, very unlikely you will ever see those people or have to deal with them again. But even with those groups, a lot of times, Discord is required so you do need to listen and or talk.

    Don't use "community" as some kind of holy grail for any argument, even in guilds, the common factor is whatever the guild is into, Raiding, Mythic Dungeons, Battle Grounds/PVP just running around or just having a community to chat or ask questions or ask for help, etc.

    A lot of times, guild members spend time in Guild Discord, just chatting or talking about how to farm a mount, etc. But during Raid time (if its a raiding guild) than that's the talk , all in Discord (have to have it)

    So now, back to the topic of Loot System aka:
    Master Looter -HORRIBLE
    Round-Robin - Silly (typically used in 5man dungeons)
    Need before Greed - People will LIE
    Bidding - will gold be that plentiful?
  • sigh

    Some people absolutely amaze me.
  • sigh

    Some people absolutely amaze me.

    Yes, RahkstarRPG, some people absolutely amaze me too, which is why I hate the loot system as currently stated on WIKI
  • So let's just remove the whole game and play wow again right?
    It got the good looting system after all.

    No seriously I have no clue what you are trying to accomplish here.
    Personal loot is like the biggest nonsense I have ever seen since they introduced the raidfinder.
    The only reason of its existence is that blizz was tired of managing their community.
    So they give in to every nonsense that is asked.

    Also which people do you surround yourself with?
    If you think every other human being with the power to distribute loot is mutating to some evil being out there to disconnect in the right moment and steal all your fancy loot.
    You must truly live in a very dark corner of the world.

    I have a really weird suggestion to you which literally solves all your issues:
    Make your own group and set the looting system yourself.

    If you don't want to do it with randoms, that's fine.
    Go out find friends, accomplish something together and learn to trust them.
    If you cannot you won't have fun in an MMO.

    This way we can all enjoy master looter while you can do whatever you want.
    Basically this is the true magic of an mmo:
    You don't have to like everything, just don't enforce others to play the game like you want them to do.
  • RodyaRodya Member
    This game isn't going to have personal loot like in retail wow is it? And this game will have Loot Master setting available, right?
  • GboltGbolt Member
    Well as I understand, there will be Master Looter option.
    But I dont understand your point about making it the only option? Or thats not what you meant?

    If guilds want to use EPGP (or whatever), they are free to do. If they want to just roll the dice, hey can do that too. Its up to each individual guild what they want to do.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 1
    I agree to some extent. Just because there are other choices does not mean it's a good system. People are just going to use the system that takes the most advantage over their own team mates.

    I'm in favor of personal loot with the option to freely trade. I'd also be in favor of a democratic vote like looting system. I also want to absolutely know what looting system is being used at all times. I don't want there to be the ability to change looting systems in a dungeon/raid.

    I'm not in favor of systems that give 1 person all of the power. I'm also not in favor of Ninja Looting systems that encourage doing it. I don't want to have to Ninja Loot every single drop in the game just to ensure it's fairly distributed. I'd much rather the game distribute the loot to who should own it. Then you choose from there where it goes if the individual agrees to it.

    If it does use Need/Greed then it needs to disable the need option to people who cannot use it. However, Need/Greed is garbage because people do in practice tend to just need everything they can.

    I don't mind the system being social. Personal loot is a social system. However, I'm not in favor of Loot Systems that force all the loot to one area just for it to not be distributed fairly or it to be stolen outright.

    You need to take the ability to abuse the system out and not just leave it in because there are options. There being options does not mean the individual choices are good because there currently isn't a loot system that is very good in any MMO.

    I think Personal Loot is the closest to being perfect of any system because it rolls automatically and gives it to whoever wins automatically. What they do with it should be their choice. In practice people either tend to send it to who can use it in the party/raid or keep it so they can sell it for something they can use. You have to use the chat to get the people who did get the drops to give them away. I really don't see how people can be opposed to this unless their goals are to cheat people out of items they deserved.

    I would not even be opposed to only being able to get stuff you can equip and it just automatically distributed it entirely. This system does not need a human element to it. You can have a human element with every other system in the game.
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  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited August 1
    I think Personal Loot is the closest to being perfect of any system because it rolls automatically and gives it to whoever wins automatically. What they do with it should be their choice. In practice people either tend to send it to who can use it in the party/raid or keep it so they can sell it for something they can use. You have to use the chat to get the people who did get the drops to give them away. I really don't see how people can be opposed to this unless their goals are to cheat people out of items they deserved.

    Personal loot isn't an auto need/greed system. Personal loot gives everyone their own individual roll on the loot table, and gives people something even if they don't hit a major item. That's very different, and generally involves a lot more loot dropping per boss.
    People are just going to use the system that takes the most advantage over their own team mates.

    Who hurt you people? I have never had such ridiculous issues with NBG loot in PUGs, and *never* a problem with master looter, because I don't use it in groups I don't trust.
  • RodyaRodya Member
    Who hurt you people? I have never had such ridiculous issues with NBG loot in PUGs, and *never* a problem with master looter, because I don't use it in groups I don't trust.
    Yeah... crazy comments in this thread by some people. Makes me think that they've never played an MMO with loot masters and public loot. The devs are not going to put in personal loot because it would kill off a large proportion of the people interested in it, and they aren't going to disallow master looter because that would do the same.
  • "Make your own group and set the looting system yourself."

    Nothing wrong with the devs giving the players many tools to choose from to accomplish their goals after evaluating their own needs. You have many options to choose from and will have little trouble finding one that suits your needs and or biases.

    /thread
  • As someone who also plays wow personal loot was NOT happily accepted by the whole playerbase. It added a huge hurdle for the top end guilds who wanted to be able to give the pieces to the people who needed them most and they couldnt. This lead to them maintaining alts they'd never play otherwise just to do split runs to trade gear to the mains anyways. There are always work arounds that just end up frustrating players. For most people personal loot works and is fine. If you want to make a group/guild and have personal loot on for your guild you could in this game and in wow. They got rid of the option for masterloot in wow just to try to make top end guilds stop doing split runs, it didn't work, they do even more of them now. If you don't like masterloot then don't use it and don't join a guild that uses it, make your own. Some people care more about the group's power growing as much as possible rather than only caring about their own player power, why should that be punished? For context I main healers, we tend to get gear last in masterloot situations, idc, I just want the group to succeed.
  • Stormfyre wrote: »
    As someone who also plays wow personal loot was NOT happily accepted by the whole playerbase. It added a huge hurdle for the top end guilds who wanted to be able to give the pieces to the people who needed them most and they couldn't.

    That is absolutely FALSE! If you were in a top end guild and it was agreed upon that someone (raid lead or GM) said hey you, give the loot to xyz, than the person COULD do it! Personal loot is tradeable up to an hour (I believe) to any member of the raid that was in on the boss kill. So, yes, if your guild wanted to have a system where whatever drops for anyone has to be ok'd by a raid lead or guild manager, so be it, you could do it, period! Dont understand this BS about ALTS, makes no sense! Alts where played for fun once the Mains where geraed up, or they just did PUGs. Split runs my A$$, my guild runs ALTs on off days just for fun, some are ALTs others are the Mains that came just for fun and to help out!

    [/quote] For context I main healers, we tend to get gear last in master loot situations, idc, I just want the group to succeed. [/quote]

    That was a shity guild, in my guild using Master Loot with dkp, generally the Tank and Healers where given top priority. Can't kill Boss's if your tank is under geared or DEAD because your Healers are under geared or dead, DPS don't matter at that point (if the Tank is dead and healers, you are done)!

    Master Loot has been and will be abused, the other options are just crap. I suppose at the end of all this, good guilds will use some kind of DKP system (if this game comes out and is successful) to compensate for Master Looter (just as they had to do in other MMOs).





  • Hi Yuyukoyay,
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    People are just going to use the system that takes the most advantage over their own team mates.

    Okay, sounds like humanity only constists of evil parasites.
    How do you come to that assumption?
    I mean even if you are right it's not that easy actually at least not in this game.
    If someone steals your loot just stalk him and kill him until he starts crying.
    PvP is in the game after all.
    I mean imagine being a well known ninja-looter.
    Hell that sounds like someone getting a lot of beating.
    We could make a hitlist on the forum for those guys. o:)
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I'm in favor of personal loot with the option to freely trade. I'd also be in favor of a democratic vote like looting system. I also want to absolutely know what looting system is being used at all times. I don't want there to be the ability to change looting systems in a dungeon/raid.

    If you like to have a looting system with democratic vote you can in fact do that.
    I mean you just give your party lead loot master you discuss who gets the loot as a group and loot master gives it to the specific person.
    No problem at all.
    If you don't want to entrust someone else make yourself master looter.
    That's basically why master looter is so great, you have 100% control over the item distribution therefore nobody can screw you since you give the master looter to a trustworthy person. (or yourself)
    The mechanism on how you decide who gets the loot isn't defined just who distributes it.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    You need to take the ability to abuse the system out and not just leave it in because there are options. There being options does not mean the individual choices are good because there currently isn't a loot system that is very good in any MMO.

    I think you disregard the contextual framework which make some of the loot systems in fact really close to be perfect in a lot of situations.

    e.g. Master looter:
    You got 100% control of who gets the item, if that's what you want it literally cannot be more perfect.

    same with personal loot:
    If you want literally no social interaction to be nesseccary, it's perfect.

    You want a loot system that let's everyone have a "fair quantity" you can take round robin,
    it's perfect for that. (though it lacks in other regards)

    You are only here to make money?
    Get a bidding system even if you don't get a single item (chances are because you don't need them) you are pretty sure to earn a nice coin.

    How are they not perfect in that specific situation?
    But situations can differ which is why you need to be able to choose between them.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I think Personal Loot is the closest to being perfect of any system because it rolls automatically and gives it to whoever wins automatically.

    How do you verify that the distribution of loot by the automatic system is good?
    Just imagine you raid a boss for 3 months now every week.
    Waiting patiently for him to drop your item but it just doesn't want to.
    Now you got this friend of a guildmate you invite for one run because you got one slot you cannot fill,
    he is basically just luggage dragged along, barely doing anything else than lying dead on the floor.
    Now you kill the boss and he randomly gets your item asigned you waited 3 months for already.

    Does that sound fair to you?
    Because the thing about luck is, it's not fair you just can't blame anyone for bad luck.
    How is the system perfect if it's just randomly throwing loot around no matter if deserved or not?
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I really don't see how people can be opposed to this unless their goals are to cheat people out of items they deserved.

    Because usually you don't use this loot system with a party of strangers but a group of people you play regularly with.
    So you can make longterm decisions on who needs the loot and make your group as a whole profit more from intelligent loot distribution rather than letting personal loot make random decisions.
    If you have a random group of people you can also do master looter but then the person needs to be trustworthy.
    I that case I'd prefer it over personal because personal loot is just random and I rather not have an algorithm make weird loot distributions.
    E.g. if you have a raid with 3 bosses someone could get 3 pieces while others get none.
    A loot master can be aware that the person already got sth from a boss and distribute it to someone else.
    Personal loot systems won't do that.

  • Hi Petesmisc
    petesmisc wrote: »
    That is absolutely FALSE! If you were in a top end guild and it was agreed upon that someone (raid lead or GM) said hey you, give the loot to xyz, than the person COULD do it! Personal loot is tradeable up to an hour (I believe) to any member of the raid that was in on the boss kill. So, yes, if your guild wanted to have a system where whatever drops for anyone has to be ok'd by a raid lead or guild manager, so be it, you could do it, period! Dont understand this BS about ALTS, makes no sense! Alts where played for fun once the Mains where geraed up, or they just did PUGs. Split runs my A$$, my guild runs ALTs on off days just for fun, some are ALTs others are the Mains that came just for fun and to help out!

    I think you are wrong about this since you seemingly don't exaclty know what you are talking about.
    Just to be clear, a semi progress raiding guild on a random WOW server and a top 300 raiding guild (e.g.) can be different like day and night in their level of ambition.
    And it is quite common for high end raiding guilds (like top 300) to have split runs and alts so they can be more flexible with boss mechanics or sudden changes on classes.
    This isn't nesseccarily true for "low rank" progress guilds.
    petesmisc wrote: »
    That was a shity guild, in my guild using Master Loot with dkp, generally the Tank and Healers where given top priority. Can't kill Boss's if your tank is under geared or DEAD because your Healers are under geared or dead, DPS don't matter at that point (if the Tank is dead and healers, you are done)!

    Master Loot has been and will be abused, the other options are just crap. I suppose at the end of all this, good guilds will use some kind of DKP system (if this game comes out and is successful) to compensate for Master Looter (just as they had to do in other MMOs).

    Once again your comment is not very believeable, I used to play tank myself and there was rarely a time when you actually needed loads of gear on your tanks.
    Can you name an expansion or an encounter so I can at least somewhat check what you are putting out?
    Otherwise it's simply not believeable.

    Furthermore would you eventually formulate a proper argument at that point?
    All you do is rant how bad master looter is while you at the same time point out that it's seemingly ok if used with a DKP System (which also has dozens different variants you do not specify).
    Don't get me wrong I am completely ready to discuss this topic with you but you simply haven't put out anything yet that's worth discussing.
    Can you try to be a bit more specific around the board?
    I mean seemingly you have a problem with master looter but what do you actually want to be changed?
  • Grievousness, wow dude, do you want my proctology result also?

    At this point I don't even care what loot system is used, in 2-3 years there will be another shiny object to "hope" for.

    We have discussed the Personal Loot system enough, the good and the bad has been brought up. Its not perfect but close to it ( I don't believe there is a perfect loot system, just one that everyone agrees on and sticks to it). The whole goal is to remove the human element from decision making for loot (loot is the life blood of any MMO) (don't you dare bring up community).

    So,
    1. it does not skill test players
    2. it does not gear check players

    All the above is up to the raid lead and/or gm, but if a dumbass, undergeared toon is invited and lays flat on his/her face one minute into the boss fight, so be it, they were invited, they tagged the boss, they have a chance at getting loot.

    Which is why there are mods to help with such things and more in certain MMOs, there will be none in AOC and that's fine, kind of refreshing. But is that an excuse for Master Loot, to deprive someone with the excuse, your dps/hps was shit, you were dead for 95% of the fight, you don't know mechanics, etc... the human mind can rationalize anything at any time for any reason. and the toon, lol, can rationalize it also and blame it on everything except him/her self.

    So, for the Master Looter, all you control freaks have at it, with all the crafting mechanics described, the loot system is going to be fun to watch (maybe).



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