Noanni brought the ToS statements from FF14 and suggested that Ashes might follow the same terms as FF14, but, that remains pure speculation at this point. I merely suggested that Steven gets notified every time we enter a post on this thread, thus, from my vantage point we seem to be able to discuss matters in a civil manner without fear of retribution. Of course, everything is subject to change.
I honestly do not thing Intrepid would follow FFXIV, and was - as you say - specifically speaking in a "what if" capacity.
However, if Intrepid do not attempt to enforce such a rule, what do they have left? If they dont want to prevent people talking about trackers, and can not prevent people using trackers, their stance on trackers is no different to any other game.
I mean, *I* am obviously fine with this, but it does seem to be a pointless stance for Intrepid to take. At that point, they may as well just build one in to the client so they can maintain control over it.
this seems more like an add-ons discussion. Either Ashes adds a dps meter or they don't. If they do we accept it, if they don't then the question is do they allow add-ons. Nothing like DPS fight Tanks for threat X.X. I lean towards no add-ons. Play the game as the dev designed. Accept the DPS meter they put it in, and ban add-ons, or suffer elitism.
this seems more like an add-ons discussion. Either Ashes adds a dps meter or they don't. If they do we accept it, if they don't then the question is do they allow add-ons. Nothing like DPS fight Tanks for threat X.X. I lean towards no add-ons. Play the game as the dev designed. Accept the DPS meter they put it in, and ban add-ons, or suffer elitism.
It's not, for a slightly subtle reason: It is impossible on a technical level to detect combat trackers. They don't even need to run on the same computer as the game client. You'd have to ban streaming. The discussion isn't so much "will Intrepid allow add-ons or not", it's "Do you prefer that combat trackers are available only to the elite who will ignore your rules, or do you prefer that they are available to everyone?" You don't need to worry that banning trackers will prevent elitism. It won't. It will just give other players less tools to help them catch up.
As many defenders have pointed out: Nobody's here to get trackers for themselves. We want everyone to have them, not just the elites. The game's more interesting when more people can keep up.
There is a big difference between a elite having a tracker and a "normal person" it isn't going to help them catch up to "elites". They will simply use the tool not well or effective, and many cases where people use it in a toxic way as well on top of it. Just because you have access to it doesn't mean it is used effective, there is a combat log they can used based on the detail they want to put in it.
@Volgaris The game isn't being designed for use of trackers, also Steven said himself there will not be a dps meter in this forum post and the very large majority of people support his view.
this seems more like an add-ons discussion. Either Ashes adds a dps meter or they don't. If they do we accept it, if they don't then the question is do they allow add-ons. Nothing like DPS fight Tanks for threat X.X. I lean towards no add-ons. Play the game as the dev designed. Accept the DPS meter they put it in, and ban add-ons, or suffer elitism.
From a technical perspective, combat trackers are not inherently add ons.
An add on is essentially a mod to the client application. These are easy to detect and ban.
A combat tracker such as ACT is it's own application. They can run and perform their function without the game client even running. Indeed, if set up properly, they can function on a computer that doesnt even have the game client installed.
Not surprisingly, this makes combat trackers essentially impossible to detect, and thus impossible to effectively ban.
Obviously, some combat trackers are built as add ons (I believe DBM is - not 100% sure though). Hiwever, it is not an inherent property of trackers.
the very large majority of people support his view.
This is still untrue.
I would potentially agree that a light majority of people initially have the view that combat trackers cause issues. Hiwever, once again if you read this thread, the bulk if people that engage in discussion on it come to the understanding that trackers are not the inherent root of the problem they initially thought, and that a guild only tracker would be fine.
Honestly, there are only a small handful of people that have engaged in discussion and not come to this conclusion.
the very large majority of people support his view.
This is still untrue.
I would potentially agree that a light majority of people initially have the view that combat trackers cause issues. Hiwever, once again if you read this thread, the bulk if people that engage in discussion on it come to the understanding that trackers are not the inherent root of the problem they initially thought, and that a guild only tracker would be fine.
Honestly, there are only a small handful of people that have engaged in discussion and not come to this conclusion.
You are in denial doesn't matter how many times you want to think that. People do not want trackers. People that do and other add on are the extreme minatory as shown in this thread.
Doesn't matter how you are trying to twist it in your mind, people do not want it, nor do they want people to view them like you are pushing for. Because their leeway is guilds is not a point that they want trackers when they would prefer it without trackers so again you are incorrect as usual when it comes to this.
People are happy with combat logs so they can improve and do as they need in testing out and seeing their dps of skills.
We can go in circles all day, doesn't change the fact you can read what people have said in the thread so it doesn't really matter. You can keep lying and stretching points that is up to you though, people don't or prefer not to have trackers....period.
So, I will be able to run my tracker. In a group, if someone is sub-par, I will he able to boot them - as long as I dont tell them why. If I tell them they were booted for sub-par performance, and they complain, my account could be suspended regardless of whether I am using a tracker or not.
See, what is happening in this thread is that as most people realize this is not an option at all, they consider Intrepid created, built in, guild only trackers to be by far the best option.
You've yet to accept that no trackers is just not an option at all.
You want trackers to track people, people do not.
Literally the only way I will not be able to track you on combat - should I chose to do so - is if Intrepid implement trackers.
If they do not, I am able to track you.
So, the question for you - the one that many people in this thread and elsewhere have answered - is, would you rather a game where i can track you in combat, or where i can not track you in combat?
Once you decide which of these you would prefer for the game, the discussion then moves on to how to achieve that.
If you would rather a game where i am unable to track you in combat, there is literally only one option open to Intrepid - and that is to build the trackers themselves, and place restrictions on their use.
Anything other than that and i will have a tracker that does not have those restrictions.
So, which would you prefer,me being able to track you, or me not being able to track you? Because that is the only real question you need to consider.
See, what is happening in this thread is that as most people realize this is not an option at all, they consider Intrepid created, built in, guild only trackers to be by far the best option.
You've yet to accept that no trackers is just not an option at all.
You want trackers to track people, people do not.
Literally the only way I will not be able to track you on combat - should I chose to do so - is if Intrepid implement trackers.
If they do not, I am able to track you.
So, the question for you - the one that many people in this thread and elsewhere have answered - is, would you rather a game where i can track you in combat, or where i can not track you in combat?
Once you decide which of these you would prefer for the game, the discussion then moves on to how to achieve that.
If you would rather a game where i am unable to track you in combat, there is literally only one option open to Intrepid - and that is to build the trackers themselves, and place restrictions on their use.
Anything other than that and i will have a tracker that does not have those restrictions.
So, which would you prefer,me being able to track you, or me not being able to track you? Because that is the only real question you need to consider.
Nice narrative keep trying to push it, the world doesn't work how you would like it to work either. If someone chooses not to support it and prevent it from impacting and effecting the game as much as possible as punish with people they find using it that is for them to decide not you.
You will take some ones words and say that for them, when that isn't what they are saying they are simply opened minded to if the worst case scenario happens in this element they could stomach x-y. Again you are the minority, the most you can reach for is people saying dps meters so they can only view themselves. Which means they do not agree with you tracking them, and if the combat log is good enough they can simply use that to measure themselves.
Please stop with the bs about in game trackers, as soon as you allow any form people will simply use that or 3rd party trackers which ever is more effective to them. If trackers are in the game it allows more open use of third party trackers and for that to be pushed. As well as people trying to make a argument trackers should influence gameplay for their content.
You are simply using bs tactics in arguments and people don't want to deal with it or argue with you all day.
You can do your snake stuff of tracking people and see how long that last be it being effective or not based on game development. And if you can truly get away without somehow being caught and being banned after all your hard work and having to go play some P2W mmorpg next, or Patheon online i guess.
This game Isn't everquest stop thinking this needs to be similar or akin to it, that would be a dead game as it is dated and old. Ashes will be ashes trust the devs and support them and don't be a snake. If it becomes something that can't be managed in the future you can do the I told you so thing. Shouldn't change your position just let them make the game they want and trust them while giving proper feedback on other elements of the game.
Please stop with the bs about in game trackers, as soon as you allow any form people will simply use that or 3rd party trackers which ever is more effective to them. .
As I explained earlier in this thread, if Intrwpid implement first party trackers, they are then in a position to actually be able to prevent third party trackers.
If they do not implement first party trackers, they can not be in a position to prevent third party trackers.
Note that this primarilyy matters on launch day. If the game launches with a first party tracker, there will not be third party. If they then remove the first party tracker, third party trackers will spring up within 24 hours. If they launch without a first party tracker, third party trackers will exist. If they then add a first party tracker to the game after launch, it wont matter as third party trackers already exist.
You will take some ones words and say that for them, when that isn't what they are saying they are simply opened minded to if the worst case scenario happens in this element they could stomach x-y.
The thing is, most other people have realised that no tracker is just not an option.
And if you can truly get away without somehow being caught and being banned
There is literally no situation in which a player in Ashes could get banned for using a combat tracker. We have been over this a number of times - it is not within the scope of what Intrepid can do, legally or technologically.
Even if Intrepid attempted to ban people for talking about trackers, that still only applies to in game communication (and maybe the forums). Since I'm going to do 99% of any communication outside of the game, as will many long time MMO players, this really isnt an issue.
Your entire premise in this thread seems to be based on the idea that trackers will be against the ToS, and that Intrepid will be able to do something about people using them.
I would be somewhat interested to see how your opinion shifts - if at all - if you make the assumption that neither of the above are able to be true. Even if you dont agree that they cant be true - if you performed a thought experiment based around them not being true, how does that alter your perspective?
See, what is happening in this thread is that as most people realize this is not an option at all, they consider Intrepid created, built in, guild only trackers to be by far the best option.
You've yet to accept that no trackers is just not an option at all.
You want trackers to track people, people do not.
Literally the only way I will not be able to track you on combat - should I chose to do so - is if Intrepid implement trackers.
If they do not, I am able to track you.
So, the question for you - the one that many people in this thread and elsewhere have answered - is, would you rather a game where i can track you in combat, or where i can not track you in combat?
Once you decide which of these you would prefer for the game, the discussion then moves on to how to achieve that.
If you would rather a game where i am unable to track you in combat, there is literally only one option open to Intrepid - and that is to build the trackers themselves, and place restrictions on their use.
Anything other than that and i will have a tracker that does not have those restrictions.
So, which would you prefer,me being able to track you, or me not being able to track you? Because that is the only real question you need to consider.
Nice narrative keep trying to push it, the world doesn't work how you would like it to work either. If someone chooses not to support it and prevent it from impacting and effecting the game as much as possible as punish with people they find using it that is for them to decide not you.
You will take some ones words and say that for them, when that isn't what they are saying they are simply opened minded to if the worst case scenario happens in this element they could stomach x-y. Again you are the minority, the most you can reach for is people saying dps meters so they can only view themselves. Which means they do not agree with you tracking them, and if the combat log is good enough they can simply use that to measure themselves.
Please stop with the bs about in game trackers, as soon as you allow any form people will simply use that or 3rd party trackers which ever is more effective to them. If trackers are in the game it allows more open use of third party trackers and for that to be pushed. As well as people trying to make a argument trackers should influence gameplay for their content.
You are simply using bs tactics in arguments and people don't want to deal with it or argue with you all day.
You can do your snake stuff of tracking people and see how long that last be it being effective or not based on game development. And if you can truly get away without somehow being caught and being banned after all your hard work and having to go play some P2W mmorpg next, or Patheon online i guess.
This game Isn't everquest stop thinking this needs to be similar or akin to it, that would be a dead game as it is dated and old. Ashes will be ashes trust the devs and support them and don't be a snake. If it becomes something that can't be managed in the future you can do the I told you so thing. Shouldn't change your position just let them make the game they want and trust them while giving proper feedback on other elements of the game.
That's the slippery slope that wow took and look at all the add-ons now. - practically run your game, tell you where to go and what to do, how to do it. aren't we trying to be different?
See, what is happening in this thread is that as most people realize this is not an option at all, they consider Intrepid created, built in, guild only trackers to be by far the best option.
You've yet to accept that no trackers is just not an option at all.
You want trackers to track people, people do not.
Literally the only way I will not be able to track you on combat - should I chose to do so - is if Intrepid implement trackers.
If they do not, I am able to track you.
So, the question for you - the one that many people in this thread and elsewhere have answered - is, would you rather a game where i can track you in combat, or where i can not track you in combat?
Once you decide which of these you would prefer for the game, the discussion then moves on to how to achieve that.
If you would rather a game where i am unable to track you in combat, there is literally only one option open to Intrepid - and that is to build the trackers themselves, and place restrictions on their use.
Anything other than that and i will have a tracker that does not have those restrictions.
So, which would you prefer,me being able to track you, or me not being able to track you? Because that is the only real question you need to consider.
Nice narrative keep trying to push it, the world doesn't work how you would like it to work either. If someone chooses not to support it and prevent it from impacting and effecting the game as much as possible as punish with people they find using it that is for them to decide not you.
You will take some ones words and say that for them, when that isn't what they are saying they are simply opened minded to if the worst case scenario happens in this element they could stomach x-y. Again you are the minority, the most you can reach for is people saying dps meters so they can only view themselves. Which means they do not agree with you tracking them, and if the combat log is good enough they can simply use that to measure themselves.
Please stop with the bs about in game trackers, as soon as you allow any form people will simply use that or 3rd party trackers which ever is more effective to them. If trackers are in the game it allows more open use of third party trackers and for that to be pushed. As well as people trying to make a argument trackers should influence gameplay for their content.
You are simply using bs tactics in arguments and people don't want to deal with it or argue with you all day.
You can do your snake stuff of tracking people and see how long that last be it being effective or not based on game development. And if you can truly get away without somehow being caught and being banned after all your hard work and having to go play some P2W mmorpg next, or Patheon online i guess.
This game Isn't everquest stop thinking this needs to be similar or akin to it, that would be a dead game as it is dated and old. Ashes will be ashes trust the devs and support them and don't be a snake. If it becomes something that can't be managed in the future you can do the I told you so thing. Shouldn't change your position just let them make the game they want and trust them while giving proper feedback on other elements of the game.
That's the slippery slope that wow took and look at all the add-ons now. - practically run your game, tell you where to go and what to do, how to do it. aren't we trying to be different?
Blizzard opened up various API hooks for WoW, which is what allows for the state the game in in now (in this regard, at least). This policy with API hooks was a part of Blizzards plan from the very beginning.
A combat tracker without those hooks cant do what things like DBM can do.
So, what I'm saying is - there is no need to worry about WoW sryle add ons unless someone starts talking about API hooks - and if that happens, I'll be as vocal arguing against that as I am arguing for trackers.
As I explained earlier in this thread, if Intrwpid implement first party trackers, they are then in a position to actually be able to prevent third party trackers.
How though? What if Intrepid's tracker doesn't have some functionality and Intrepid refuses to add it. Wouldn't some 3rd party just make their own and the same hardcore players that care about trackers would just use the better one?
Or just even the basic "I wanna use the info outside of the game" wish from players would only be addressed by a 3rd party tracker that's outside of the game. Or would you demand Intrepid make their tracker a separate app?
As I explained earlier in this thread, if Intrwpid implement first party trackers, they are then in a position to actually be able to prevent third party trackers.
How though? What if Intrepid's tracker doesn't have some functionality and Intrepid refuses to add it.
I should have said that if Intrepid implement a tracker with basic minimal functionality.
Being able to access information outside of the game is a consideration I haven't actually spent much time thinking about - but is something I consider a basic function of a combat tracker. Thinking about it now, I see no reason at all why we wouldn't be able to pull up data from the in game tracker later on using the app they plan on making.
I'd even be fine with it is we needed to tag a period of combat in game in order to be able to pull it up to look at it later on in the app.
I should have said that if Intrepid implement a tracker with basic minimal functionality.
You'd be fine with a minimal functionality tracker, but how many others would be? And how many of those people would choose a tracker with a much better functionality, if presented with one by a 3rd party? I'd also assume that some people might not have the same definition of "basic functionality" as you, so there's that too.
This is why I think that combat log should be the base lvl of knowledge for people rather than a tracker function/app based on said log. You could add "tracker functionality" to the log (though mainly I'm talking about export of the log into a text file), but outside of that I think it should be on players themselves to figure out what they want to do with that info and how much they can get out of it.
I should have said that if Intrepid implement a tracker with basic minimal functionality.
You'd be fine with a minimal functionality tracker, but how many others would be?
By basic functionality, I really mean basically everything that ACT can do - as it is the base standard of a combat tracker across basically all MMO's other than WoW.
If a tracker in Ashes can do what ACT can do, you would have literally 99.99% of players wanting a tracker covered - and that 0.01% are likely to be mostly people that are confused between combat trackers and combat assistants.
By basic functionality, I really mean basically everything that ACT can do - as it is the base standard of a combat tracker across basically all MMO's other than WoW.
And this is where I'd love to give an example of some feature that Intrepid might not want to include, but I got 0 fucking clue what ACT even does
By basic functionality, I really mean basically everything that ACT can do - as it is the base standard of a combat tracker across basically all MMO's other than WoW.
And this is where I'd love to give an example of some feature that Intrepid might not want to include, but I got 0 fucking clue what ACT even does
Honestly, my suggestion would be to download it, find a game that it has a plugin for and that you are at least marginally interested in looking at, and look at both that game and ACT at the same time.
Guys, I just don't see your discussions can go any where.
Agree Steven side you just deny to face that not implement dps meter or tracker doesn't make the situations less, and you more willing to do something about tools that can have negative effect in stead of people who make the negative effect. But the truth is meter/tracker or not don't make the situations more or less, you see if I am a toxic player I make my toxic friends and form a guild over 64 players, after we all get max level we can start to find out all builds and skill combinations and get to know all what we need to know to do what you don't want to see, and spread what we know about and talk about which is the best which is the worst so far etc on youtube etc and our out come or point of view don't need to be 100% right because what we want is just make the ripple and there will be players watch that and no matter they believe or don't believe our out came there is a chance they will try it themselves to see what is what and some of them will definitely make another ripple for us to make others have similar mentality you don't like and I don't know the way to ban this.
The Okay with dps meter or tracker side you just can't convince anyone on agree Steven side because you too can't prevent example I said earlier, and I just need a timer to do that and no one of you can ban me to have one. I'm not super understand how the 3rd party do their tracker but I'm sure that nothing is perfect no matter what there will be what you want, I mean do you ever saw any mmo don't have cheat program or 3rd party tools? maybe they hard ban those but if you find hard enough I think you will find it, but I know that you just want an official build in dps meter or tracker you'd like to have that don't hurt anyone in your opinions and just enjoy the game without any toxicity.
All I want to say is tool is just tool don't blame on tool, the mentality is not healthy. I'm fine with no dps meter if I be honest it just make things a little inconvenient fro me to teach or share my point to my friends but I still I have my timer that's all I need.
In my opinion I would more like to punish toxic player hard as possible once found it's true, like I said I willing to pay more to support Intrepid to do what most mmos claim what they will do but never happen like WOW rarely hard punish bots or gold sellers at least in my experience.
And this will be my last post talk about dps meter or tracker, see you guys around.
Wow definitely does trash bots and botters, there are videos online of Wow devs destroying bot accounts. The problem is there are thousands of botters much like Runescape. It takes time to detect and destroy each botter and then the botters just open up new accounts and continue. You can't curb these practices in Wow because they are very profitable, much like multi boxers who use multiple toons/accounts to gain extra rare drops (Its only used for rare drops despite what others say). A 5% drop chance sees 2, 3 or 4 drops an hour when 20 toons are all killing the same mobs with the 5% drop chance. You'll be lucky to get 1 or 2 an hour at 5% drop chance solo. Anyway, I digress.
Trackers won't make or break the game. Even if no trackers stop the usual top PvE Guilds from playing, Ashes will have top PvE Guilds spawned from the player base anyway. Its not like we require the usual top PvE Guilds - Everyone will PvE a little in a PvX. Make no mistake, PvX is the main game mode and a tracker is like a kill cam to PvPers, an addon that will struggle to be approved.
Honestly, my suggestion would be to download it, find a game that it has a plugin for and that you are at least marginally interested in looking at, and look at both that game and ACT at the same time.
I guess that's the main problem with trackers for me. I got 0 interest in games that use them (this is the list from act's site)
And I got barely any interest of tinkering with or figuring them out in a game that I got 0 interest in. I might ask you or Azherae for a tracker during alpha2 just to see what they provide for the game's experience, but before that I'm not sure I'd be able to give them a fair look through if I tried using them in another game.
Is there maybe a video guide for absolute dumbass newbs about what ACT does? Cause from a quick search on youtube, most of the stuff seems to just explain how to set it up w/o any real practical use of it.
Wow definitely does trash bots and botters, there are videos online of Wow devs destroying bot accounts. The problem is there are thousands of botters much like Runescape. It takes time to detect and destroy each botter and then the botters just open up new accounts and continue. You can't curb these practices in Wow because they are very profitable, much like multi boxers who use multiple toons/accounts to gain extra rare drops (Its only used for rare drops despite what others say). A 5% drop chance sees 2, 3 or 4 drops an hour when 20 toons are all killing the same mobs with the 5% drop chance. You'll be lucky to get 1 or 2 an hour at 5% drop chance solo. Anyway, I digress.
Trackers won't make or break the game. Even if no trackers stop the usual top PvE Guilds from playing, Ashes will have top PvE Guilds spawned from the player base anyway. Its not like we require the usual top PvE Guilds - Everyone will PvE a little in a PvX. Make no mistake, PvX is the main game mode and a tracker is like a kill cam to PvPers, an addon that will struggle to be approved.
I doubt it, few bots I report and their id never shows on punish list and I still see them in WOW while I still play it.
When cost higher than profit business don't go on, just simple as that, so I willing to pay to support Intrepid to do it, punish what need to be punished: gold sellers gold buyers bot users etc what ever the behavior hurt the game beyond you can tolerate, and yes I aware that people can have lot of money to spend and I don't care, they need to pay first to create account means they paid so it won't hurt the game to punish them by delete their accounts but not to do will hurt the game, because it will create a atmosphere and mentality that tells players that you as game developers don't care that as long as you get profit, then player start don't care anymore and it's one big reason most mmos dead.
Honestly, my suggestion would be to download it, find a game that it has a plugin for and that you are at least marginally interested in looking at, and look at both that game and ACT at the same time.
I guess that's the main problem with trackers for me. I got 0 interest in games that use them (this is the list from act's site)
It's worth noting that you are only looking at the plugins that ACT itself is hosting. There are a good number of other plugins out there, but they are probably a bit harder to find.
Failing that, if you do indeed want to get a good understanding of what ACT can do, I suggest looking over this page
I think MMOs die because of the time investment. It was all well and good when we were all young and in education. It gets harder when we have familys, and even less time becomes available. If the gulf between what we want and what we get becomes too wide we just cut out things we can't achieve - most of the times that would be the MMOs. In some ways, its a rather high fluted mode of gaming. We all know masses amounts of time will go into a MMO if the MMO is good, but, the more time we spend in an MMO the more the flaws start to grate and the less likely we are to stick to the MMO in question. Certainly, expansions can change an MMO so fundamentally and add to the widening gap between hardcore and casual that it simply doesn't become viable for some people in the long term.
I've seen people in top end guilds with me that only play the game 9 - 12 hours a week. They set aside 3 nights a week, and play 3 or 4 hours a night. Those 3 nights just so happen to be the nights we were raiding.
Some games (WoW is bad at this) add in artificial barriers so that people can't just log in and run the content they want, but this is kind of the minority of games.
To me, that 9 - 12 hours a week isn't that much more of a commitment than if you joined a bowling team, or a book club, or a - what ever else people do.
While it is absolutely true that some people would put that bowling club before playing an MMO and so may not have time for that MMO, I am of the firm belief that people think MMO's take more time than they actually do take.
One need only look at the number of players in most games running around town doing nothing for evidence of this.
I think MMOs die because of the time investment. It was all well and good when we were all young and in education. It gets harder when we have familys, and even less time becomes available.
I wrote this in another thread, but it still applies here
that is a bad choise of design, we are not kid anymore and we are not in L2, i personally work 8h a day (normal timework i think), sleep 8h (otherwise i will not perform at work) and in general i can play maybe 1h to 3h a day, and like me probably 70% of the world
Now just a quick question. Back in those L2 days, were you always the oldest kid around? Were there only kids playing the game? Because back when I played L2, I was usually the youngest person in my guild. I talked with 40-50y.o. dudes with wives and kids who, yes, played only for 2-3h a day if that, but they enjoyed the game to the fullest and the guild would just get more people who played during a different time to pad out their spawn camping shifts.
Yes, you've become old, but instead of being selfish and thinking about only your own benefits, try to think about the current younger people who might want to experience the same thing you did back then. If you have 1h to play the game - do so and enjoy that 1h. If you can't enjoy the game w/o getting everything presented to you on a silver platter - mmos are no longer for you.
The mmos die because they went down the shitter with their design. And you just need to look at FF14's success to see that. FF14 became better at what it was doing over the years and has millions of people playing it and enjoying it. All you need is a good game and people will play it even if they only have 1h a day to play, while the game want you to spend hundreds of hours to achieve smth.
I've seen people in top end guilds with me that only play the game 9 - 12 hours a week. They set aside 3 nights a week, and play 3 or 4 hours a night. Those 3 nights just so happen to be the nights we were raiding.
Some games (WoW is bad at this) add in artificial barriers so that people can't just log in and run the content they want, but this is kind of the minority of games.
To me, that 9 - 12 hours a week isn't that much more of a commitment than if you joined a bowling team, or a book club, or a - what ever else people do.
While it is absolutely true that some people would put that bowling club before playing an MMO and so may not have time for that MMO, I am of the firm belief that people think MMO's take more time than they actually do take.
One need only look at the number of players in most games running around town doing nothing for evidence of this.
There is a difference between playing an MMO and just having a raid schedule. A raid schedule to me is not playing the MMO. This is the difference between the PvP players and the PvE Players. Its why your old statements of 'There are more PvE players than PvP players' can be said to be true. Ashes will die a lot faster if the PvP players leave. Ashes wants PvP to be the gears of change. The issue will pertain to expansions - which normally only focus on PvE as a matter of fact. PvP expansions are much rarer and are much more needed in Ashes.
I've seen people in top end guilds with me that only play the game 9 - 12 hours a week. They set aside 3 nights a week, and play 3 or 4 hours a night. Those 3 nights just so happen to be the nights we were raiding.
Some games (WoW is bad at this) add in artificial barriers so that people can't just log in and run the content they want, but this is kind of the minority of games.
To me, that 9 - 12 hours a week isn't that much more of a commitment than if you joined a bowling team, or a book club, or a - what ever else people do.
While it is absolutely true that some people would put that bowling club before playing an MMO and so may not have time for that MMO, I am of the firm belief that people think MMO's take more time than they actually do take.
One need only look at the number of players in most games running around town doing nothing for evidence of this.
There is a difference between playing an MMO and just having a raid schedule. A raid schedule to me is not playing the MMO. This is the difference between the PvP players and the PvE Players. Its why your old statements of 'There are more PvE players than PvP players' can be said to be true. Ashes will die a lot faster if the PvP players leave. Ashes wants PvP to be the gears of change. The issue will pertain to expansions - which normally only focus on PvE as a matter of fact. PvP expansions are much rarer and are much more needed in Ashes.
No, I think you all over think it, mmo players always find the part they like in one mmo to play, and back in the day we really are play mmos which means not played by it, there are not such time investment BS there, we just login and have fun, end game? bis? addons? metat? raids? hardcore players? F that, I play the game not the other way around.
Failing that, if you do indeed want to get a good understanding of what ACT can do, I suggest looking over this page.
I mean, to me this just looks like a written form of an omniscient pov of the fight. I'm definitely naïve when it comes to this (and obviously haven't experienced content that ever required this), but to me this looks just like a tool to overcome the "humanity" of the game.
This puts all the burden of figuring out raid members' fails and misses on the main parser of the tracker (or the group that does it), while also giving that person omniscient powers over the encounter's history. You remove any human factor from it, mainly because you're seeing the objective truth instead of someone's recollection of their actions, or at the very least video recording of it (which is nowhere near the omniscience that's seemingly present in those screenshots).
I guess I'm just a purist, when it comes to this topic. Maybe that stems from me never having the need for this kind of information or maybe from just my own preferences in gaming, but this point is even stronger than the "it speeds up content consumption" one for me. Guess I'll just never participate in AoC's top lvl pve, if it ends up requiring trackers.
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However, if Intrepid do not attempt to enforce such a rule, what do they have left? If they dont want to prevent people talking about trackers, and can not prevent people using trackers, their stance on trackers is no different to any other game.
I mean, *I* am obviously fine with this, but it does seem to be a pointless stance for Intrepid to take. At that point, they may as well just build one in to the client so they can maintain control over it.
It's not, for a slightly subtle reason: It is impossible on a technical level to detect combat trackers. They don't even need to run on the same computer as the game client. You'd have to ban streaming. The discussion isn't so much "will Intrepid allow add-ons or not", it's "Do you prefer that combat trackers are available only to the elite who will ignore your rules, or do you prefer that they are available to everyone?" You don't need to worry that banning trackers will prevent elitism. It won't. It will just give other players less tools to help them catch up.
As many defenders have pointed out: Nobody's here to get trackers for themselves. We want everyone to have them, not just the elites. The game's more interesting when more people can keep up.
@Volgaris The game isn't being designed for use of trackers, also Steven said himself there will not be a dps meter in this forum post and the very large majority of people support his view.
From a technical perspective, combat trackers are not inherently add ons.
An add on is essentially a mod to the client application. These are easy to detect and ban.
A combat tracker such as ACT is it's own application. They can run and perform their function without the game client even running. Indeed, if set up properly, they can function on a computer that doesnt even have the game client installed.
Not surprisingly, this makes combat trackers essentially impossible to detect, and thus impossible to effectively ban.
Obviously, some combat trackers are built as add ons (I believe DBM is - not 100% sure though). Hiwever, it is not an inherent property of trackers.
This is still untrue.
I would potentially agree that a light majority of people initially have the view that combat trackers cause issues. Hiwever, once again if you read this thread, the bulk if people that engage in discussion on it come to the understanding that trackers are not the inherent root of the problem they initially thought, and that a guild only tracker would be fine.
Honestly, there are only a small handful of people that have engaged in discussion and not come to this conclusion.
You are in denial doesn't matter how many times you want to think that. People do not want trackers. People that do and other add on are the extreme minatory as shown in this thread.
Doesn't matter how you are trying to twist it in your mind, people do not want it, nor do they want people to view them like you are pushing for. Because their leeway is guilds is not a point that they want trackers when they would prefer it without trackers so again you are incorrect as usual when it comes to this.
People are happy with combat logs so they can improve and do as they need in testing out and seeing their dps of skills.
You want trackers to track people, people do not.
You've yet to accept that no trackers is just not an option at all.
Literally the only way I will not be able to track you on combat - should I chose to do so - is if Intrepid implement trackers.
If they do not, I am able to track you.
So, the question for you - the one that many people in this thread and elsewhere have answered - is, would you rather a game where i can track you in combat, or where i can not track you in combat?
Once you decide which of these you would prefer for the game, the discussion then moves on to how to achieve that.
If you would rather a game where i am unable to track you in combat, there is literally only one option open to Intrepid - and that is to build the trackers themselves, and place restrictions on their use.
Anything other than that and i will have a tracker that does not have those restrictions.
So, which would you prefer,me being able to track you, or me not being able to track you? Because that is the only real question you need to consider.
Nice narrative keep trying to push it, the world doesn't work how you would like it to work either. If someone chooses not to support it and prevent it from impacting and effecting the game as much as possible as punish with people they find using it that is for them to decide not you.
You will take some ones words and say that for them, when that isn't what they are saying they are simply opened minded to if the worst case scenario happens in this element they could stomach x-y. Again you are the minority, the most you can reach for is people saying dps meters so they can only view themselves. Which means they do not agree with you tracking them, and if the combat log is good enough they can simply use that to measure themselves.
Please stop with the bs about in game trackers, as soon as you allow any form people will simply use that or 3rd party trackers which ever is more effective to them. If trackers are in the game it allows more open use of third party trackers and for that to be pushed. As well as people trying to make a argument trackers should influence gameplay for their content.
You are simply using bs tactics in arguments and people don't want to deal with it or argue with you all day.
You can do your snake stuff of tracking people and see how long that last be it being effective or not based on game development. And if you can truly get away without somehow being caught and being banned after all your hard work and having to go play some P2W mmorpg next, or Patheon online i guess.
This game Isn't everquest stop thinking this needs to be similar or akin to it, that would be a dead game as it is dated and old. Ashes will be ashes trust the devs and support them and don't be a snake. If it becomes something that can't be managed in the future you can do the I told you so thing. Shouldn't change your position just let them make the game they want and trust them while giving proper feedback on other elements of the game.
As I explained earlier in this thread, if Intrwpid implement first party trackers, they are then in a position to actually be able to prevent third party trackers.
If they do not implement first party trackers, they can not be in a position to prevent third party trackers.
Note that this primarilyy matters on launch day. If the game launches with a first party tracker, there will not be third party. If they then remove the first party tracker, third party trackers will spring up within 24 hours. If they launch without a first party tracker, third party trackers will exist. If they then add a first party tracker to the game after launch, it wont matter as third party trackers already exist.
The thing is, most other people have realised that no tracker is just not an option. There is literally no situation in which a player in Ashes could get banned for using a combat tracker. We have been over this a number of times - it is not within the scope of what Intrepid can do, legally or technologically.
Even if Intrepid attempted to ban people for talking about trackers, that still only applies to in game communication (and maybe the forums). Since I'm going to do 99% of any communication outside of the game, as will many long time MMO players, this really isnt an issue.
Your entire premise in this thread seems to be based on the idea that trackers will be against the ToS, and that Intrepid will be able to do something about people using them.
I would be somewhat interested to see how your opinion shifts - if at all - if you make the assumption that neither of the above are able to be true. Even if you dont agree that they cant be true - if you performed a thought experiment based around them not being true, how does that alter your perspective?
That's the slippery slope that wow took and look at all the add-ons now. - practically run your game, tell you where to go and what to do, how to do it. aren't we trying to be different?
Blizzard opened up various API hooks for WoW, which is what allows for the state the game in in now (in this regard, at least). This policy with API hooks was a part of Blizzards plan from the very beginning.
A combat tracker without those hooks cant do what things like DBM can do.
So, what I'm saying is - there is no need to worry about WoW sryle add ons unless someone starts talking about API hooks - and if that happens, I'll be as vocal arguing against that as I am arguing for trackers.
Or just even the basic "I wanna use the info outside of the game" wish from players would only be addressed by a 3rd party tracker that's outside of the game. Or would you demand Intrepid make their tracker a separate app?
Being able to access information outside of the game is a consideration I haven't actually spent much time thinking about - but is something I consider a basic function of a combat tracker. Thinking about it now, I see no reason at all why we wouldn't be able to pull up data from the in game tracker later on using the app they plan on making.
I'd even be fine with it is we needed to tag a period of combat in game in order to be able to pull it up to look at it later on in the app.
This is why I think that combat log should be the base lvl of knowledge for people rather than a tracker function/app based on said log. You could add "tracker functionality" to the log (though mainly I'm talking about export of the log into a text file), but outside of that I think it should be on players themselves to figure out what they want to do with that info and how much they can get out of it.
If a tracker in Ashes can do what ACT can do, you would have literally 99.99% of players wanting a tracker covered - and that 0.01% are likely to be mostly people that are confused between combat trackers and combat assistants.
Honestly, my suggestion would be to download it, find a game that it has a plugin for and that you are at least marginally interested in looking at, and look at both that game and ACT at the same time.
Agree Steven side you just deny to face that not implement dps meter or tracker doesn't make the situations less, and you more willing to do something about tools that can have negative effect in stead of people who make the negative effect. But the truth is meter/tracker or not don't make the situations more or less, you see if I am a toxic player I make my toxic friends and form a guild over 64 players, after we all get max level we can start to find out all builds and skill combinations and get to know all what we need to know to do what you don't want to see, and spread what we know about and talk about which is the best which is the worst so far etc on youtube etc and our out come or point of view don't need to be 100% right because what we want is just make the ripple and there will be players watch that and no matter they believe or don't believe our out came there is a chance they will try it themselves to see what is what and some of them will definitely make another ripple for us to make others have similar mentality you don't like and I don't know the way to ban this.
The Okay with dps meter or tracker side you just can't convince anyone on agree Steven side because you too can't prevent example I said earlier, and I just need a timer to do that and no one of you can ban me to have one. I'm not super understand how the 3rd party do their tracker but I'm sure that nothing is perfect no matter what there will be what you want, I mean do you ever saw any mmo don't have cheat program or 3rd party tools? maybe they hard ban those but if you find hard enough I think you will find it, but I know that you just want an official build in dps meter or tracker you'd like to have that don't hurt anyone in your opinions and just enjoy the game without any toxicity.
All I want to say is tool is just tool don't blame on tool, the mentality is not healthy. I'm fine with no dps meter if I be honest it just make things a little inconvenient fro me to teach or share my point to my friends but I still I have my timer that's all I need.
In my opinion I would more like to punish toxic player hard as possible once found it's true, like I said I willing to pay more to support Intrepid to do what most mmos claim what they will do but never happen like WOW rarely hard punish bots or gold sellers at least in my experience.
And this will be my last post talk about dps meter or tracker, see you guys around.
: )
Trackers won't make or break the game. Even if no trackers stop the usual top PvE Guilds from playing, Ashes will have top PvE Guilds spawned from the player base anyway. Its not like we require the usual top PvE Guilds - Everyone will PvE a little in a PvX. Make no mistake, PvX is the main game mode and a tracker is like a kill cam to PvPers, an addon that will struggle to be approved.
And I got barely any interest of tinkering with or figuring them out in a game that I got 0 interest in. I might ask you or Azherae for a tracker during alpha2 just to see what they provide for the game's experience, but before that I'm not sure I'd be able to give them a fair look through if I tried using them in another game.
Is there maybe a video guide for absolute dumbass newbs about what ACT does? Cause from a quick search on youtube, most of the stuff seems to just explain how to set it up w/o any real practical use of it.
I doubt it, few bots I report and their id never shows on punish list and I still see them in WOW while I still play it.
When cost higher than profit business don't go on, just simple as that, so I willing to pay to support Intrepid to do it, punish what need to be punished: gold sellers gold buyers bot users etc what ever the behavior hurt the game beyond you can tolerate, and yes I aware that people can have lot of money to spend and I don't care, they need to pay first to create account means they paid so it won't hurt the game to punish them by delete their accounts but not to do will hurt the game, because it will create a atmosphere and mentality that tells players that you as game developers don't care that as long as you get profit, then player start don't care anymore and it's one big reason most mmos dead.
Failing that, if you do indeed want to get a good understanding of what ACT can do, I suggest looking over this page
https://advancedcombattracker.com/screenshots.php
Click each screenshot (I suggest going in order), they have a description of what each one is showing.
I'm not sure I can agree with this.
I've seen people in top end guilds with me that only play the game 9 - 12 hours a week. They set aside 3 nights a week, and play 3 or 4 hours a night. Those 3 nights just so happen to be the nights we were raiding.
Some games (WoW is bad at this) add in artificial barriers so that people can't just log in and run the content they want, but this is kind of the minority of games.
To me, that 9 - 12 hours a week isn't that much more of a commitment than if you joined a bowling team, or a book club, or a - what ever else people do.
While it is absolutely true that some people would put that bowling club before playing an MMO and so may not have time for that MMO, I am of the firm belief that people think MMO's take more time than they actually do take.
One need only look at the number of players in most games running around town doing nothing for evidence of this.
The mmos die because they went down the shitter with their design. And you just need to look at FF14's success to see that. FF14 became better at what it was doing over the years and has millions of people playing it and enjoying it. All you need is a good game and people will play it even if they only have 1h a day to play, while the game want you to spend hundreds of hours to achieve smth.
There is a difference between playing an MMO and just having a raid schedule. A raid schedule to me is not playing the MMO. This is the difference between the PvP players and the PvE Players. Its why your old statements of 'There are more PvE players than PvP players' can be said to be true. Ashes will die a lot faster if the PvP players leave. Ashes wants PvP to be the gears of change. The issue will pertain to expansions - which normally only focus on PvE as a matter of fact. PvP expansions are much rarer and are much more needed in Ashes.
No, I think you all over think it, mmo players always find the part they like in one mmo to play, and back in the day we really are play mmos which means not played by it, there are not such time investment BS there, we just login and have fun, end game? bis? addons? metat? raids? hardcore players? F that, I play the game not the other way around.
This puts all the burden of figuring out raid members' fails and misses on the main parser of the tracker (or the group that does it), while also giving that person omniscient powers over the encounter's history. You remove any human factor from it, mainly because you're seeing the objective truth instead of someone's recollection of their actions, or at the very least video recording of it (which is nowhere near the omniscience that's seemingly present in those screenshots).
I guess I'm just a purist, when it comes to this topic. Maybe that stems from me never having the need for this kind of information or maybe from just my own preferences in gaming, but this point is even stronger than the "it speeds up content consumption" one for me. Guess I'll just never participate in AoC's top lvl pve, if it ends up requiring trackers.