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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
That said, I agree with everything here.
Games like WoW treat players as if they are disposable, and so it should come as no surprise that players of such games treat each other as disposable.
By contrast, players in games where you are more reliant on your community tend to have players that treat each other significantly better.
I mean, if you are forming a group up to run some content, you aren't likely to invite the guy that was a dick in your last group. If groups are limited to server only, that player is going to run out of people to group with very quickly - whereas in WoW, there is a limitless supply of groups for that player to join.
To me, this says that a guild only combat tracker would result in all the positive aspects of trackers, and none of the negative aspects.
However, the only way for a guild only tracker to exist is if the game developer builds it in to the game client.
This is what my argument during this entire thread is. Would that be an position you agree with?
But if you look at the actual complaints with trackers, they are all basically only limited to PUGs.
This is why a guild based tracker is the best option, imo.
Wait. I thought I didn't care about the ToS.
If I didnt care about the ToS as you have said, I wouldn't be posting to try and change it. If I am posting to try and change it, I must care about what it says.
I mean, it cant be both.
I want the game to have built in trackers so that literally every person that wants to use them is able to use them.
I am suggesting they be guild basednsonthat those not wanting to deal with them will have mo inherent need to do so.
That is literally it.
Ill repeat myself from before you will do it anyway and don't care about TOS. But if you can get it in then TOS can't stop you from doing anything at all and it will be easier to use more third party tools.
Classic manipulation on your part.
This aspect of DBM is the combat assistant part, not combat tracker.
All a combat tracker can do is tell you what has happened - it cant then tell you what to do, or assist you in doing anything.
In terms of players knowing the content mechanics, I'm from a game where the guild was the only unit worth thinking about. 99% of all raids were done by and within the guild.
The game also had content where there wasnt a single strategy to any given encounter. Each guild would often have wildly different methods for taking on the same encounter.
As such, it was expected that you would need to train new guild members - even if they had done the content in another guild.
The other thing it meant is that guilds were overly protective of the strategies they de slip for content. There were no actual guides at all for most top end raids. This only added to an individual guild needing to teach its recruits, as players had no means of learning the content outside of actually running it - even if you did it the same way as another guild.
To me, this is the best approach I have seen in any MMO. I'm not sure if it was done on purpose in that game, but the way it worked out really did make for the best community.
But the ToS wont prevent me from using a tracker. It cant. We've been over this - it is literally not within the purview of what the ToS can cover.
Even if we ignore that, I have never asked for a change to the games ToS. In fact, I dont think I've even talked about rhen outside of specifically talking to you (and the offshoot conversation with one or two other players that spawned from it).
It isnt something I have ever bought up, because it isnt something that I ever think about. It isnt something j ever think about because it isnt something that could limit me at all.
Edit; fun fact for anyone reading this, it would seem that 483 is the hard limit on notifications on these forums.
That could be all it is. Thought it was an odd number to be the limit.
I noticed thread views have been broken for a few days, assume it's the same thing.
Similarly, Steven says that Ashes should not have combat trackers. There are hardcore challenge PvE players who don't agree with that. We can expect Steven to accept that there are players who don't agree and still not implement combat trackers.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by potential use for them.
There is a use for combat trackers. There should not be a need for combat trackers.
If the devs implement combat trackers, the will design boss encounters expecting that it's common for people to rely on combat trackers. Therefore, needing combat trackers would be more prevalent than it will be when the devs design expecting most people are not relying on combat trackers.
The big difference is that players cant ignore Intrepid and just start up their own PvE only server.
If they could, you had better believe Steven would rethink the situation.
Wait for the private servers after the official game dies. I imagine all the rulesets under the sun will be implemented on the private servers. Incidentally, trackers are against FF14 ToS too but so long as you don't use the trackers to spread information, ban players, block players or lambast players the FF14 devs don't discipline the tracker users. I'm not sure I'd want to dice with the IS devs. I don't particularly want my account banned. I'm normally quite free flow on certain game practices but with Ashes I've waited years to play the main game and also spent a lot of money on cosmetics. I don't think I could face a game ban.
As to FFXIV, as far as I can tell from reading their User Agreement, here isnt anything at all about trackers. They only mention of analysis is in relation to them analyzing players - nothing at all in relation to players analyzing the game. All mentions of third party software are in relation to things like RMT, data mining, and other such activities.
If you have the exact language used where they say you cant use trackers, I'd like to read it. If it is in a document other than;
FINAL FANTASY® XIV
User Agreement
Last Updated: 12/24/2019
I'd like to know which document.
However, I will say that in their FAQ they have a list of prohibited activities. One activity is analyzing game data - this is the closest thing I can find. However, a combat tracker analyzes combat data (or character data), not game data. If taken at face value, it is reasonable to assume people could get mixed up between analyzing game data (data mining), and analyzing combat data.
However, not only are these things not the same, but this specific document is a FAQ, not their legally binding User Agreement. The FAQ Prohibited Activities page is basically a "please dont do these things - we're asking nicely". If it is in this FAQ but not in the User Agreement, they really cant actually do anything about it.
Yeah, in FFXIV they essentially treat talking about objective data the same as actual harassment.
People can use trackers freely in that game. It isn't actually against the rules, because they cant make it against the rules. So instead, they made talking about it against the rules for reasons that can only be called pettiness.
This is the way Intrepid seem to be heading. Running a tracker will be fine - purely because they cant make that act against the rules.
Talking about your tracker in any official channels (the game, forums and maybe social media) could result in a ban.
So, I will be able to run my tracker. In a group, if someone is sub-par, I will he able to boot them - as long as I dont tell them why. If I tell them they were booted for sub-par performance, and they complain, my account could be suspended regardless of whether I am using a tracker or not.
What this will also mean though, is that o adjective discussion about the game can not happen on the official forums.
The stupid thing is, if guilds only use Discord for communication, they are literally immune to any such rule.
This will result in such discussions happening on third party sites (perhaps a forum, perhaps an unofficial Reddit, what ever). Basically, the community will split - assuming Ingrepid make the same "no discussion" rule that FFXIV has (which is indeed a rule they are able to make).
So, in an attempt to not have the community split over trackers it is very possible that Intrepid will cause the community to split.
One could just google FF14 and find the 'Act' Devs though. If indeed your 'Act' is the same 'Act' associated with FF14. The tag, colours, font and image matches those Devs though. Not that it really matters. I'm sure in the grand scheme everything will work out for the best.
Toxic
My character has an attack string that basically ends in 'FlameBreath'. If I use this FlameBreath on the frame just before my opponent can no longer be hit by it, my frame data changes, their fall position changes, I can use my teleport and make it impossible to counter (In Ashes, let's assume the equivalent of this is that I would appear behind the opponent if I do it right, and in front of them if I do it wrong).
If Ashes were similar, I would want the Frame Data (but I can get it myself). If an opponent had an attack that for some reason hit me anyway while LOOKING like it should only hit in front of them, now I want a 'Hitbox Scanner' (harder to get myself, but I CAN do it).
This HitBox Scanner would not give me any DPS information at all, but it would be in the same spirit, to ME, as a Tracker or Parser. In my practice, that I am doing right now, I can 'do this combo for 2000 repetitions until I know the Hitbox for my opponent's counter-move', or I can look it up.
It's already clear that some people will say 'do the 2000 repetitions', that's not the question. The question is 'should Intrepid also have a negative stance on Hitbox Scanners since it has Action Combat elements?' and then for my purposes then, would I 'then be not allowed to discuss hitboxes in-game?' e.g.
"We're dying because you keep missing the lastframe teleport on your Flame Breath and dropping into the wrong hitbox for the enemy Tank, we need you to swap with someone who can do it or we're gonna lose this (PvP Encounter)"
My concern is that for me, 'discussing hit and hurtboxes' happens whether I have a scanner or not. I know they exist, I learn them by just playing the game naturally, I am, in all arrogance, basically a savant at 'seeing them without the scanner' which makes my skill valuable in analysis (cat is credit to team!)
But unlike a Realtime Combat Tracker where the 'way you tell if someone is using it' is 'how detailed information they have is relative to your perception of human capacity' (for observation and arithmetic, basically), it's much harder to judge for a HTBox.
Even more troublesome, I think, is that they're a 'moment to moment' thing. If you ask someone 'please use this ability instead, I think it will do more damage', I think you can get away with that even in FF14. If you 'try to explain the enemy HTBox/Frame Data to someone in chat so that they can improve performance', you normally don't have any way to be less specific.
I don't quite understand in that regard. What is the GM checking to make the ban decision, if not the communication?
Noanni brought the ToS statements from FF14 and suggested that Ashes might follow the same terms as FF14, but, that remains pure speculation at this point. I merely suggested that Steven gets notified every time we enter a post on this thread, thus, from my vantage point we seem to be able to discuss matters in a civil manner without fear of retribution. Of course, everything is subject to change.
Ah. I see.
For clarity, I'm not talking about the type that interacts directly with the client (admittedly building an HBS that does not is considerable work for imprecise data), which gets us back to an unproductive discussion, I think.
There for there is no reason to stop people from talking about it.
However, if Intrepid do not attempt to enforce such a rule, what do they have left? If they dont want to prevent people talking about trackers, and can not prevent people using trackers, their stance on trackers is no different to any other game.
I mean, *I* am obviously fine with this, but it does seem to be a pointless stance for Intrepid to take. At that point, they may as well just build one in to the client so they can maintain control over it.