I wouldn't say trackers cause healers to focus on pumping dps, but instead combat log leaderboards such as any *game*logs.com where ppl sabotage the raid in pursuit of better performance number decided by the site owners - it is just a leaderboard measuring contest of everybody's peepee
however that is not really what trackers are used for by raid leaders, because these guys focus on getting the encounter killed first and the measuring contest begins when guilds transition to farming out the raid instead of progressing through it
however in ashes afaik there will not be "farm raids" because as i understand it, when you clear a raid - that raid stays cleared until you open a different raid - so in essence you shouldn't get into a situation when guilds are on grind farm of a certain raid
- at least that's the design goal afaik
Yeah, I mean the tracker in question didn't have an overlay, it was just pasted in a macro after each fight - its the preferred tracker system i tend to use when available. If its an overlay tracker then I can't resist staring at the overlay in down moments and its just not very enjoyable. The system you described for the raids sounds interesting but I'm not sure how beneficial it will be in the long run. We have to get resources to craft gear and also maintain gear. Even if you got a legendary item as a drop, you'd still need to maintain the gear. I'm not sure how prevalent the resources will be or how often we can farm a raid. Make no mistake, even if a raid can only be done once every 6 months it will eventually be on farm for certain guilds.
I don't think you are being a "dick" but who am I to disagree? I have been wrong about everything else so far
I had to stop reading after you quoted me as it seem you don't know the difference between adjectives and nouns. "meta-crunching" (adjective) "player" (noun).
Sorry if you made any valid points after that, I just couldn't move past that. I will have to trust the Devs to pan out any gold dust from the rest of that post.
I don't think you are being a "dick" but who am I to disagree? I have been wrong about everything else so far
I had to stop reading after you quoted me as it seem you don't know the difference between adjectives and nouns. "meta-crunching" (adjective) "player" (noun).
Sorry if you made any valid points after that, I just couldn't move past that. I will have to trust the Devs to pan out any gold dust from the rest of that post.
Until the next thread.
As a means of attempting to say "that thing I just said that you pulled me up on so now I am going to pretend I didn't say it", as a means to back out of a position you know you cant claw your way back from, you're a long way short of Dygz here.
I'm not even sure what it is you are trying to say.
I mean, yes, meta-crunching is obviously an adjective as used, but it is also a verb in other situations (for example, if Azehrae asked me what I was doing, I may reply "I am meta-crunching with the existing combat tracker for Ashes to parse developer livestream content just to ruin TheMarten's day").
If you are stating that you have concerns with meta-crunching players and you dont then specify a verb that you are specifically concerned with, then the default fallback is to assume your concern is in regards to the adjective you used to describe the noun. If it is not, you either should have used a better adjective to get your point across, or should have added the verb in for clarity.
This is stuff you should have learned when you were what, 11?
So, what are you trying to say in your above post? Is the concern you have with meta-crunching players something other than their meta-crunching activities? Or are you just trying to back out of a situation you see no other way out of, as I suspect?
I have a love-hate relationship with dps meters. On the one hand my inner nerd loves pouring over the data you get from them. But at the same time I hate having to rely on them to know if you are playing well or not.
I'd prefer they stayed out of the game unless we absolutely needed them.
Again, this still leads to exclusion. I never mentioned exclusion based on a single metric, I'm talking about people not pulling their weight when all the metrics are considered. If someone's class can't perform to a certain standard, and as a player they are unable to mechanically perform at the skill level required, would you keep them onboard? I personally wouldn't. That's exclusion. You seem to be under the impression that every raid leader will act altruistically when given access to this data. People are pretty shitty, and while I believe you would use the meters to better the raid by figuring out who needs advice instead of a kicking, I firmly believe most wouldn't. Now, again, I do agree that there should be meters, however I don't think we will see them because of the exclusion that they bring.
I would like to add my voice behind the above quotes as both are well said.
I would hate for globally accessible metering. It leads to class (subclass) exclusions by meta-crunching players that think they can tell by a single number if you are a good player or not. Support classes would get hit the hardest in what many refer to as "end game" content. DPS/Healing meters do not tell you what NPC-debuffs lead to the biggest increase in damage, just that Barb-x did the damage. DPS/Healing meters do not tell you who prevented players from taking damage via buffs/debuffs, just what cleric-x did the most healing.
If the Devs decide on a meter (I honestly hope they don't) it needs to be a private meter so that players can tweak their own class and not have some other person telling them how they should be playing. Personally I would allocate that Dev time to other tasks.
Steven has said there will be no meters its one guy responding to everyone and a small handful of others trying to get meters. Most people here have said they dont want meters as well.
I really hope they don't add trackers or there'll be a server with Noaani In it yelling numbers in chat from raid boss encounters and linking it to group efficiency.
No there wont.
Why would I do that?
You said it yourself earlier. If you've got a group clearing content you'd want builds that are optimised for that, as well as having people in your guild be the best [insert class here] they can be, otherwise why have them?
So with a tracker you'd be able to demonstrate with the trackers information to back it up the group that would be perfect for the content you want to run.
And you'd most likely ignore other applications of people who fail to match that number.
Which is why I said you'll be in chat yelling numbers and equating it to efficiency if you ever have to find someone.
YUUUUUUUP and based on his personality you know its so true that it would happen. Stubborn and bias and will argue for 200 pages for what he wants and not what the community wants at a large.
@Noaani It doesn't mater if this thread stays at the top and you try twist logic or stretch peoples opinions in form of your own fantasy of bias. People don't agree with what you want you are in the extreme minority people agree with what Steven wants with no meters
@Mag7spy Bruh, I love how you can represent the opinions of the silent majority - do you work for a living reading peoples minds?
There are 100 previous threads you can read them and see how many people are against trackers. Im only speak for the information that is in the thread.
Or are you saying what they say didn't matter because they don't want to argue with the same person for 200 pages?
And no not everyone is silent, plenty people comment their dissatisfaction on meters. that i believe are new every day, granted could be some people commenting again from the many hundreds of previous post.
you take the forum community - exaggerate the ratio towards your personal beliefs and present that as proportionate representation of the people that are going to tryout ashes when it comes out
this whole thread is the same thing as setting up a stand in a park with a written title "come write down if you think global warming is real"
do you really think the listed opinions are going to be proportional towards the true beliefs of the whole populace? Only people that have strong feelings towards their opinion on global warming are going to write something down
you take the forum community - exaggerate the ratio towards your personal beliefs and present that as proportionate representation of the people that are going to tryout ashes when it comes out
this whole thread is the same thing as setting up a stand in a park with a written title "come write down if you think global warming is real"
do you really think the listed opinions are going to be proportional towards the true beliefs of the whole populace? Only people that have strong feelings towards their opinion on global warming are going to write something down
This is what you don't understand so ill explain it again. Forums is like less than 1% of player base it normally has the most dedicated people commenting on it. This would be the most bias place to support DPS meters if that was the case and it falls short of being anywhere near supported except for a small group on this forum.
If we are talking about all the people off the forums they would not be supporting DPS meters or would not know about it or care about it. Plenty would think people are cheating to know more information as well. Off the forum is where things would be supported against trackers even more so.
As i said i don't think it will be proportional, People do not want trackers, a normal person isn't wanting or using, or knowing of tracker either.
you take the forum community - exaggerate the ratio towards your personal beliefs and present that as proportionate representation of the people that are going to tryout ashes when it comes out
this whole thread is the same thing as setting up a stand in a park with a written title "come write down if you think global warming is real"
do you really think the listed opinions are going to be proportional towards the true beliefs of the whole populace? Only people that have strong feelings towards their opinion on global warming are going to write something down
This is what you don't understand so ill explain it again. Forums is like less than 1% of player base it normally has the most dedicated people commenting on it. This would be the most bias place to support DPS meters if that was the case and it falls short of being anywhere near supported except for a small group on this forum.
If we are talking about all the people off the forums they would not be supporting DPS meters or would not know about it or care about it. Plenty would think people are cheating to know more information as well. Off the forum is where things would be supported against trackers even more so.
As i said i don't think it will be proportional, People do not want trackers, a normal person isn't wanting or using, or knowing of tracker either.
So your argument is really just that the people on your side are the ones who are ignorant of the situation and don't want to learn about it?
you take the forum community - exaggerate the ratio towards your personal beliefs and present that as proportionate representation of the people that are going to tryout ashes when it comes out
this whole thread is the same thing as setting up a stand in a park with a written title "come write down if you think global warming is real"
do you really think the listed opinions are going to be proportional towards the true beliefs of the whole populace? Only people that have strong feelings towards their opinion on global warming are going to write something down
This is what you don't understand so ill explain it again. Forums is like less than 1% of player base it normally has the most dedicated people commenting on it. This would be the most bias place to support DPS meters if that was the case and it falls short of being anywhere near supported except for a small group on this forum.
If we are talking about all the people off the forums they would not be supporting DPS meters or would not know about it or care about it. Plenty would think people are cheating to know more information as well. Off the forum is where things would be supported against trackers even more so.
As i said i don't think it will be proportional, People do not want trackers, a normal person isn't wanting or using, or knowing of tracker either.
So your argument is really just that the people on your side are the ones who are ignorant of the situation and don't want to learn about it?
People have said plenty of arguments within this thread as a whole, I'm talking about the conscious of the general majority. If I'm talking about groups It be a post for each one to explain though that is already done in this thread.
Ignorant are the ones that don't care what people think and want to force meters even if it means breaking tos btw.
It is not our remit to maintain the no tracker stance, its the onus of those who want trackers to persuade IS to allow trackers. If you just stopped your arguments against trackers you would find that the situation just dies because no counter arguments can be put forth (or essays as I like to call the posts). Thus, if you want the notion to keep trackers out of ashes, simply let the status quo stand.
It is not our remit to maintain the no tracker stance, its the onus of those who want trackers to persuade IS to allow trackers.
This isnt quite true.
Those who want trackers will have them. What we (or, at least, I) are doing, is trying to make the game better by making trackers available to all who want to use them, rather than just those of us "in the know". In doing this, it would also mean those not wanting trackers would have confidence that others they group with wont be tracking their combat - while with the status quo, this is not something that can ever be assumed.
No one has yet painted a realistic picture of how the game would actually be worse if Intrepid implemented guild based trackers - not even Intrepid. The arguments have all been about combat trackers vs no combat trackers, but that ship sailed long ago.
The argument about it being against the ToS is ridiculous - as if I wanted to, I can ask a friend to use the tracker on a computer that I dont even have access to if I want. As such, literally nothing at all about the tracker functioning (neither the user nor the computer) has had anything at all to do with Intrepid.
I'd like to see someone argue that a tracker can be against the ToS when the user of that tracker hasn't even agreed to a ToS with Intrepid.
Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.
Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.
What about meta gaming guides on forums, youtube, guide sites? Are you going to take them down? They do everything you accuse trackers "making easier" but on a massive scale basically without any barrier of entry, because you don't need to understand it - just follow the guide step by step
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
People will know that META gaming guides won't be very helpful in Ashes - especially because Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game.
Won't stop some people from obsessing over pursuit of the META.
People will know that META gaming guides won't be very helpful in Ashes - especially because Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game.
Won't stop some people from obsessing over pursuit of the META.
META won't, but meta will.
A games meta (as opposed to META) will account for likely variation.
Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.
What about meta gaming guides on forums, youtube, guide sites? Are you going to take them down? They do everything you accuse trackers "making easier" but on a massive scale basically without any barrier of entry, because you don't need to understand it - just follow the guide step by step
Comparing external programs and literarily tell you exactly what is going on (number and state wise precisely) and a guide that is written by someone else after figuring things out are two different things. Nice false comparison.
Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.
What about meta gaming guides on forums, youtube, guide sites? Are you going to take them down? They do everything you accuse trackers "making easier" but on a massive scale basically without any barrier of entry, because you don't need to understand it - just follow the guide step by step
Comparing external programs and literarily tell you exactly what is going on (number and state wise precisely) and a guide that is written by someone else after figuring things out are two different things. Nice false comparison.
Is that how you think it is? xD
- you can test with tracker when you become uncritable OR you just read from guide the precise value
- you can test with tracker your stat values OR you just read it from a guide
- you can trial test with tracker how much of the node specific gear you need OR you just read it from a table in a guide how much every node requires
- you can try to figure out how to kill the boss (where tracker doesnt help, because all it does is show you who isn't doing their job - interupters not interrupting, stunners not stunning, dispellers not dispelling etc) OR you just follow a kill guide
however it still baffles me how obfuscation of information is beneficial to the crowd that doesnt like iron man challenges, but I guess I'll never get an answer to that here xD
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Dygz I beg to differ - games with big variation rely even MORE on meta guides to use the most versatile builds for the most amount of situations
basically more build options equals more chances to create useless build
Not in Ashes, because your build and how efficient you are is going to be dependent on the various choices each individual in your group has made and how well you synergize with the members of your group.
You don’t really create “useless” builds. You could have a great build and not know how to synergize with your group.
Also…Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game, even raid session to raid session, so…whatever guide there might be is unlikely to help others much.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Why test in a tracker whether you are uncritable? You can just put points in Passive Skills for that.
You are like a fanatic, that try to claim truths without even knowing what reality is...
you do lot of claims but never show proof of your claims... When people claims thing, with proof, you just explain why you consider it not relevant...
But you are just unable to give yourself any kind of proof to support your own claims "most people" what are most, what kind of people, etc etc.
Myself don't try to claim "everyone wants combat tracker" neither "no one wants" or "makority wants/don't wants" because i have no factual strict proof about the whole current community (which is far in number but also in the type of people we will have after the game is released... )
Now, lets get straight to your problem with combat tracker :
You spoke about gatekeeping... But the idea of nooani would generates gatekeeping only for a really few people... and in a way that will happens with or without it :
With combat tracker limited to guilds which decide to take it, and only able to show datas from guild members, this won't be able to see anyone else... But guilds mostly do high end content with... guild member.
The gatekeep so, will comes because some people who want to join the guild doesn't meet the requirements to become member (in consideration of guild officers / leader) and will be rejected.
So you fear a gatekeep ? really ? Does that mean you want to join any guild without to have to prove you fit in the guild ? If yes, you are totally on the toxic side... Yes, people that don't care their own efficiency can be toxic, losing the time of 39 other people in the raid.
Toxicity in video games doesn't follow a strict rule... If you join a group of players and doesn't fit their mentality, objectivs, you will be toxic, even if you are the nicer guy that walked the Earth.
You defend guide, guide that generates a lot of gatekeeping... because lot of people refuses the other because they didnt follow those guides... Those are the only time i was refused/kick in MMORPG : when people did saw my build didnt fit any of the guide they judge to be "the way to play"... I never was under-efficient for any content i joined in PU... while i rarely follow guides. I was denied not because i am a bad player, but because i was not playing how players expected me to play...
and i won't speak about all parties with "read guides / watch video or don't join" ... those are also kind of gatekeeping. It doesn't seems to be a problem for you right ?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Comments
You think anyone at Intrepid is reading this?
Yeah, I mean the tracker in question didn't have an overlay, it was just pasted in a macro after each fight - its the preferred tracker system i tend to use when available. If its an overlay tracker then I can't resist staring at the overlay in down moments and its just not very enjoyable. The system you described for the raids sounds interesting but I'm not sure how beneficial it will be in the long run. We have to get resources to craft gear and also maintain gear. Even if you got a legendary item as a drop, you'd still need to maintain the gear. I'm not sure how prevalent the resources will be or how often we can farm a raid. Make no mistake, even if a raid can only be done once every 6 months it will eventually be on farm for certain guilds.
I had to stop reading after you quoted me as it seem you don't know the difference between adjectives and nouns. "meta-crunching" (adjective) "player" (noun).
Sorry if you made any valid points after that, I just couldn't move past that. I will have to trust the Devs to pan out any gold dust from the rest of that post.
Until the next thread.
Peace!
As a means of attempting to say "that thing I just said that you pulled me up on so now I am going to pretend I didn't say it", as a means to back out of a position you know you cant claw your way back from, you're a long way short of Dygz here.
I'm not even sure what it is you are trying to say.
I mean, yes, meta-crunching is obviously an adjective as used, but it is also a verb in other situations (for example, if Azehrae asked me what I was doing, I may reply "I am meta-crunching with the existing combat tracker for Ashes to parse developer livestream content just to ruin TheMarten's day").
If you are stating that you have concerns with meta-crunching players and you dont then specify a verb that you are specifically concerned with, then the default fallback is to assume your concern is in regards to the adjective you used to describe the noun. If it is not, you either should have used a better adjective to get your point across, or should have added the verb in for clarity.
This is stuff you should have learned when you were what, 11?
So, what are you trying to say in your above post? Is the concern you have with meta-crunching players something other than their meta-crunching activities? Or are you just trying to back out of a situation you see no other way out of, as I suspect?
Steven has said there will be no meters its one guy responding to everyone and a small handful of others trying to get meters. Most people here have said they dont want meters as well.
YUUUUUUUP and based on his personality you know its so true that it would happen. Stubborn and bias and will argue for 200 pages for what he wants and not what the community wants at a large.
― Plato
There are 100 previous threads you can read them and see how many people are against trackers. Im only speak for the information that is in the thread.
Or are you saying what they say didn't matter because they don't want to argue with the same person for 200 pages?
this whole thread is the same thing as setting up a stand in a park with a written title "come write down if you think global warming is real"
do you really think the listed opinions are going to be proportional towards the true beliefs of the whole populace? Only people that have strong feelings towards their opinion on global warming are going to write something down
― Plato
This is what you don't understand so ill explain it again. Forums is like less than 1% of player base it normally has the most dedicated people commenting on it. This would be the most bias place to support DPS meters if that was the case and it falls short of being anywhere near supported except for a small group on this forum.
If we are talking about all the people off the forums they would not be supporting DPS meters or would not know about it or care about it. Plenty would think people are cheating to know more information as well. Off the forum is where things would be supported against trackers even more so.
As i said i don't think it will be proportional, People do not want trackers, a normal person isn't wanting or using, or knowing of tracker either.
So your argument is really just that the people on your side are the ones who are ignorant of the situation and don't want to learn about it?
People have said plenty of arguments within this thread as a whole, I'm talking about the conscious of the general majority. If I'm talking about groups It be a post for each one to explain though that is already done in this thread.
Ignorant are the ones that don't care what people think and want to force meters even if it means breaking tos btw.
This isnt quite true.
Those who want trackers will have them. What we (or, at least, I) are doing, is trying to make the game better by making trackers available to all who want to use them, rather than just those of us "in the know". In doing this, it would also mean those not wanting trackers would have confidence that others they group with wont be tracking their combat - while with the status quo, this is not something that can ever be assumed.
No one has yet painted a realistic picture of how the game would actually be worse if Intrepid implemented guild based trackers - not even Intrepid. The arguments have all been about combat trackers vs no combat trackers, but that ship sailed long ago.
The argument about it being against the ToS is ridiculous - as if I wanted to, I can ask a friend to use the tracker on a computer that I dont even have access to if I want. As such, literally nothing at all about the tracker functioning (neither the user nor the computer) has had anything at all to do with Intrepid.
I'd like to see someone argue that a tracker can be against the ToS when the user of that tracker hasn't even agreed to a ToS with Intrepid.
What about meta gaming guides on forums, youtube, guide sites? Are you going to take them down? They do everything you accuse trackers "making easier" but on a massive scale basically without any barrier of entry, because you don't need to understand it - just follow the guide step by step
― Plato
Won't stop some people from obsessing over pursuit of the META.
META won't, but meta will.
A games meta (as opposed to META) will account for likely variation.
basically more build options equals more chances to create useless build
― Plato
Comparing external programs and literarily tell you exactly what is going on (number and state wise precisely) and a guide that is written by someone else after figuring things out are two different things. Nice false comparison.
Is that how you think it is? xD
- you can test with tracker when you become uncritable OR you just read from guide the precise value
- you can test with tracker your stat values OR you just read it from a guide
- you can trial test with tracker how much of the node specific gear you need OR you just read it from a table in a guide how much every node requires
- you can try to figure out how to kill the boss (where tracker doesnt help, because all it does is show you who isn't doing their job - interupters not interrupting, stunners not stunning, dispellers not dispelling etc) OR you just follow a kill guide
however it still baffles me how obfuscation of information is beneficial to the crowd that doesnt like iron man challenges, but I guess I'll never get an answer to that here xD
― Plato
You don’t really create “useless” builds. You could have a great build and not know how to synergize with your group.
Also…Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game, even raid session to raid session, so…whatever guide there might be is unlikely to help others much.
the point was to point towards an item stat and its breakpoint value
― Plato
You are like a fanatic, that try to claim truths without even knowing what reality is...
you do lot of claims but never show proof of your claims... When people claims thing, with proof, you just explain why you consider it not relevant...
But you are just unable to give yourself any kind of proof to support your own claims "most people" what are most, what kind of people, etc etc.
Myself don't try to claim "everyone wants combat tracker" neither "no one wants" or "makority wants/don't wants" because i have no factual strict proof about the whole current community (which is far in number but also in the type of people we will have after the game is released... )
Now, lets get straight to your problem with combat tracker :
You spoke about gatekeeping... But the idea of nooani would generates gatekeeping only for a really few people... and in a way that will happens with or without it :
With combat tracker limited to guilds which decide to take it, and only able to show datas from guild members, this won't be able to see anyone else... But guilds mostly do high end content with... guild member.
The gatekeep so, will comes because some people who want to join the guild doesn't meet the requirements to become member (in consideration of guild officers / leader) and will be rejected.
So you fear a gatekeep ? really ? Does that mean you want to join any guild without to have to prove you fit in the guild ? If yes, you are totally on the toxic side... Yes, people that don't care their own efficiency can be toxic, losing the time of 39 other people in the raid.
Toxicity in video games doesn't follow a strict rule... If you join a group of players and doesn't fit their mentality, objectivs, you will be toxic, even if you are the nicer guy that walked the Earth.
You defend guide, guide that generates a lot of gatekeeping... because lot of people refuses the other because they didnt follow those guides... Those are the only time i was refused/kick in MMORPG : when people did saw my build didnt fit any of the guide they judge to be "the way to play"... I never was under-efficient for any content i joined in PU... while i rarely follow guides. I was denied not because i am a bad player, but because i was not playing how players expected me to play...
and i won't speak about all parties with "read guides / watch video or don't join" ... those are also kind of gatekeeping. It doesn't seems to be a problem for you right ?