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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
meta will appears. people will do it.
the problem is... how it will go.
Lets say an example : a game has 2 DPS builds
Build A is easy to find, quite easy to play and does 100 DPS
Build B is hard to find, little harder to play but could go up to 110 DPS.
The problem is
First build B, people will struggle to get it fine, and will do things that can reach 60 DPS, or 70... maybe 80, with a harder gameplay than build A => the build B will get considered bad to use, pushing people on A.
Also, build B is finally found, and good players are better with it than build A... ok... but many players play it bad, so they do less that what a bad players using the build A will do (because it is an easy build so...
For the second part, the tracker have no impact, except showing who is bad or not. is it a problem ? for me no. if the game is good, each can find its place (also, yes, the "bad" won't go to top end bosses but i don't see any problem with it, i find it normal. I expect a good mmorpg to have some bosses that more than 90% of players will never be able to kill it)
The combat tracker get a use there for personnal training, to see if you improved, and adapt little by little (reading a guide should never be enough to master the class, but also a long training on it)
Also, the combat tracker replace the kick for "playing out of meta" by the kick for "being bad"
For the first part... if all struggle to find out the build, due to lack of information and easy way to get datas of different test. Due to a team full of A get decent result on any bosses of the game, with no real difficulty on this part, why people would try to find out other efficient build ? The build A become the meta build to do. At any problem on fight, people will inspect stuff/build of others and if they see people trying B they will kick them out. And people will whine on forum for a better balance...
With a combat tracker, it will be far easier to figure out how to get the best from build B. the meta will stop to be "class A only".
The less data we have, the more easy people will go on things they will see fast being efficient, the people trying to push other ways will be a really small minority. This is what we saw a lot on games where there were low theorycrafting from players, but also games begining with a bad balance at launch, and even when it got far better no one bother to really work on other builds.
And because people don't want to lose time because of other people doing poor choices, instead of considering "all are equal, we are a pick up team that will stay until the win" they will kick out anyone out of those meta builds. meta builds define by... mostly what is the most obvious.
The more maths is avaible to everyone to see it, (so getting ALL effect of stats on stuff, etc, like 50 critical score = 1% crit chance or a more complex formula), the more way players have to test it, the larger the meta will be.
Also, you will say "people will focus only on the biggest DPS classes" : This is where the game design has to be good enough to avoid it (and because i have no reason to think IS will do it bad... i consider it will be a case of "well done" for AoC)
Lets add a build C : only 90 damages and is as hard to play as build B... useless ? this build is clearly better than others for kiting, or for crowd controll. And because boss fight includes adds that tank can't take... having enough build C in your team is mandatory... why not all C ? you would make the fight longer (so more problem on healers mana, more risk to do mistakes etc etc).
So we have for people who don't want to train too much / easy class to play : build A
People who want big DPS and ready to train for it : build B
People who love side utility : Build C
This is why having each class a strong identity is mandatory for a good MMORPG : it makes each class quite unique, and with a correct balance, the problem won't be "having only big DPS" but having a variety of all those uniqueness to answer to as much situation as possible.
There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this.
If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time.
Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know.
Or you make this point know and advocate for having stats show correct terms so people know, which has nothing to do with adding trackers. You are simply using what you would view as "bad design, or not enough information." As a reason for trackers which you are simply using as a scapegoat to push for trackers.
Correct answer - The game should correctly show your your stats and skills effect your abilities correction with a detailed info of your stats. Unless they go the route of not showing damage numbers.
The game should correctly show information- this is true.
However, many games do not. This is just a fact - if you look in to any games combat system deep enough, you will find mistakes (my honest assumption as to why Steven doesnt want trackers is that he doesnt want people like me finding mistakes in his game, literally nothing else makes sense from a game developer perspective - though obviously he wouldn't tell us that is his reason).
I mean, we can advocate all we like for tool tips and such to be correct, but unless we have a means of validating what is on them, we have no way of, well, validating them.
If we cant point to something and tell Intrepid it is wrong, they aren't going to check it.
This is actually the base level argument for trackers, everything else is secondary or tertiary arguments.
Without a combat tracker, players have no means of checking developers work. Developers have no incentive for checking their own work if players aren't able to point out issues - and as such games where players use trackers have fewer mistakes and/or bugs.
This isnt a theoretical debate, it is practical. I have given an example in this thread of a far reaching bug in an MMO that I personally pointed out to developers who then fixed it, making literally every aspect of that game better - and a tracker was absolutely key in that.
The buf in question was noticed in many different aspects of the game, but no one could figure it out for years - the developers looked in to different things a number of times that were a result of this bug, but never actually spotted it.
About the only thing you can say to this if you dont want trackers is that you are fine with bugs remaining in the game, even if they are bugs that are noticable.
@HybridSR
Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
Can anyone post a youtube link to a clear example from another MMO?
I mean, anything remotely hard in WoW would never have been figured out without a tracker.
Sure, you and your guild may not need one. You just use the guides you find.
However, the people that worked out the encounters originally, and thus were in a position to then make guides - they needed trackers.
It's pretty obvious that certain class combos will have a higher DPS thus automatically making top guilds aiming to have those specs into their raid parties, forcing a meta from the get go. And obviously, even random parties will have people complaining about someone not doing enough DPS.
Are you in such a rush to have 80% of the class combos outside raid parties?...
I repeat. There is NOTHING that requires a DPS meter. If you're playing the game, you know what your gear is and the damage you're doing. You can easily compare it to others. You don't need a DPS meter to kill bosses in an open world PvP. Nothing that helps to enforce a meta is a good idea and a DPS meter is the most meta enforcing trash you can possibly add to the game.
Again, no thanks-
Agreed thankfully most people here agree with you its just a handful that keep posting trying to change it and get dps meters (same people from years ago)
You aren't a developer you don't need tools to be looking for mistakes, that is not a reason to have a dps meter. If you think there is a issue test your damage out on mobs and see if things are being applied and such. If you don't believe in the devs to make a game and fix issues or bugs they find, they play or support a game where you think devs will do a better job.
All i see is weird arguments for trackers and you continue trying to use anything possible including bad faith. If you want to help solve dev issues, apply for a QA position.
preach.
@Noaani
It's funny how myself and others have tried to explain this, but you seem to refuse to try and understand our point of view. It's ok that you probably have a different view for what "toxic" means...but you also need to acknowledge that others ALSO have a different view of what it means.
Here it is again, since you seemed to miss it the first time.
He has never seen a toxic thing happen because of trackers, his own words. Most likely because he is on that toxic side of things and expects everyone to do as he says lmao.
So, what you are saying is that you dont want combat trackers, because us having combat trackers will expose Intrepida incompetence?
I mean, if the game is developed properly, if class balance is set to where different builds have apros and cons in different situations, then all a combat tracker will do is show players that this is the case.
I personally believe Intrepid are competent enough to balance classes well enough so that different builds have benefits in different situations. Should this be the case, combat trackers straight up cant result in the situation you are talking about.
So, what your argument here kind of comes down to is that if Intrwpid are shit at developing their game,a tracker will expose that. However, if they are good at developing their game, a tracker will show that.
With the above in mind, Steven is against trackers.
Classes that outDPS others will always be better in raid groups. It doesn't matter if other classes shine in other areas or if the top DPS classes actually suck at actual PvP. World bosses will be the #1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 priority for every big alliance in the game. The moment you discover a single combo is the best, tryhards guilds will immediately have 20 people reroll to one of them.
There's nothing more to be discussed. If you want to force a meta, get DPS meters and instantly kill 80% of the classes. Or don't because why even bother when NOBODY needs a DPS meter.
So, I already addressed that post.
Just because you think all of what you said is valid without debate, that doesnt mean it is.
First if all, you are claiming that a discussion in group that you do not like is considered toxic.
That is just bullshit. Stop being a snowflake, you do not get to dictate what others talk about. Even thinking that is a valid argument is beyond ridiculous and you should feel both shame and embarrassment for making that argument.
If someone else wants to look at their meter more than the game then OBVIOUSLY they enjoy playing the game with a meter active. This is because there is absolutely no need to have it on screen at all, so someone that has it on screen obviously has it there because they want it there.
If that is how someone else gets the most enjoyment out of the game,who are you to say it is an issue?
As to people thinking meters are needed for all content and so giving others grief, this is only a potential situation if all content is made in a complex manner where people even could think that.
If Intrepid make much of the content specifically assuming people donr need trackers, then people would have to be pretty stupid to assume you do need trackers, as it would be obvious that you do not.
Any given DPS class absolutely will have a build that is highest DPS. In this, I assume we agree.
In a game like WoW, this build will be considered the only viable build, as it is the best at DPS, and I'd you are a DPA class filling a DPS slot in a raid, then your DPS is actually all you are there for. I assume we also agree here.
However, in Ashes, this wont be the case. Sure, that class may be the best DPS, but it is probably going to be shit at PvP. Since the bulk of content in Ashes will see PvP remain a possibility almost all the time, it will often be preferable for people to drop some of that DPS in place of some survivability or utility - things supplied to the raid via other roles in instanced PvE.
As such, guilds will likely be happy to see DPS players drop an amount of top end DPS on place of some survivability or utility - and a tracker is key to assisting in this.
If avoiding a meta is your biggest driving force here, I suggest you look in to Archeage.
That game had 56 classes, very low combat tracker use,and a meta that only allowed players to use 3 builds - that meta remains unchanged for 5 years.
The problem there was people developed the meta, and so everyone just ran with it. Without combat trackers being used by many people, no one actually checked the meta to see if it was all that good.
No one was able to break the meta for years because the meta was the meta, and no one was able to provide objective data that any other builds were better - because no one had objective data.
Yes, I will discredit viewpoints that have no merit to them. Any view or opinion that has no merit should be discredited.
I mean, you are just asking for your opinion to be discredited if you are saying something that many people enjoy shouldnt be in the game because someone else doesnt like the way they enjoy it (I dont want trackers because some players may spend too long looking at them). That just isnt a good take on things at all.
lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't.
Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works.
This is my main point.
Where is the weakness in that point?
You don't need tools to check the work of developers that is not a point for trackers to be in the game. You are a player not a developers. If you don't trust the devs and think you need special tools to watch over them don't play the game.
Literally you reaching for trackers
Not me, i am not a child anymore,
I saw lot of devs doing mistakes, for a simple reason : they are human.
I saw games were mistakes needed players to gather datas (lot of datas sometime) to prove there was a mistake, and get it fixed by devs. because bugs are not only doing only 33% crit when your character sheet says 66%... It can be far more insidious to have it.
MMORPGs are far from avoid it. And it is not a problem, i have nothing against developers doing mistake, even big mistake... I have a problem with all those mistake...
I would trust nobody to do a perfect work, free of failure, mistake, bug. Including excellent devs like those in fromsoftware or Team Cherry. Because they are nothing more than human.
And as customer, and sometime fan, i have to help them to correct bugs, and other mistakes. How ? finding them, and not only finding them, trying to repeat, understand them, to show to devs as much information as possible to allow them to find it fast. And it can even include doing retro-engineering... Which was a thing on any online game then and now.
One of your argument is about opposing tracker versus social interaction.
A topic is a social interaction, so i think you consider fine to have people express their thought, get an answer from nooani, and maybe have them speak, debate, share thought about it right ? Those are real social interaction.
your post seems like you think this topic should stop now so i am surprised.
Now, i have a question : define "nobody wants combat tracker"
Because, some want tracker (there are post of people with low post saying they are totally fine with it, without even reading about the "limited to a guild perk" idea). You claim "nobody" so first, define a more clear way what is "nobody" ...
For me nobody = 0
this is the problem with you : you do claims, try to say what you think is a truth, but this is your truth and only yours... this nobody, a simple quote and this becomes false.
You are not even here to discuss or debate, just doing your claims.
So here is my real question : what do you really hope ?
However, developers are people. People can make mistakes.
As I have said, using trackers, I have identified and confirmed a number of bugs in a number of games that developers have missed - and I am just one player. One of those bugs in particular affected almost literally every aspect if that game.
This isnt a reach, this is a real world, recurring thing that every game and every player of every game benefits from.
I dont think you are I any position to tell me what the point of trackers is or is not. That is like telling someone that the point of a screwdriver is to build shelves, you cant use it to build a bench.
Obviously, the purpose of a screwdriver is to drive screws. That can be shelves, that can be a bench. It is up to the user to decide what they want to do.
Likewise, a trackers purpose is to collect and display data. If a player wishes to use that to better their build, or to work out an encounter, or to investigate a games combat system, that is obviously up to the individual user.
I cant see how anyone could believe anything other than the above.
There will be always people who minmax to the extreme and refuse to play with players who don't, but that's a social aspect- everyone has the right to choose if they want to play with someone or not, you cannot make someone play with you against their will. Instead you yourself find people who will be happy to play with you.
I think meters are very usefull, not only for seeing good and bad dps, but also to perfecting your build, and rotation. Without a meter it's really difficult to see if what im doing is good or bad. And I believe that if those meters aren't build into the game third party addons will be a thing -ff is a good example of that.
You aren't a developer you don't need tools to "test the developers for mistakes" you can do that without tools if you really care that much. If you want to help with bugs apply for a QA position.
Game is not being designed for trackers. You can test your stuff without trackers by putting in some actual effort and research into your build you don't need trackers for that.
Also i don't trust our ass so there is that as well
Go back and read the pages in a mind set where you are being competitive and not caring what people say. You just choose to ignore the truth when you can go back and read and understand, what ever the community and devs support is what I am for.
And yes the guild perk is BS because you can use the same argument here for guild perk to 3rd party trackers. It is pretty clear your starting goal is tracker sin the game and then next goal will be trackers to scan everyone and then it snow balls into other issues.
Then help them by applying for a QA position or do the actual work to find bugs as you can without a tool. You aren't a developer you don't need special tools for finding them that is not a reason to include trackers you are reaching.
You can see what you are doing dps wise if you test your damage against mobs and do a lot of test attacks. Meters are toxic and that is what it will lead to in people focusing on the bad dps without understanding reasons for it. You don't need a tool that tells you everything in the game stat and detail wise you need to be figuring things out on your own. Everyone is aware regardless of effective a tracker will be you gave all the information you need from it regardless on what mobs will do and it is effectively cheating.
One point of the tool is to make the experience easier understood not from your own knowledge but having all that bs on your screen to tell you and look over. Figure that out on your own it will be a lot more rewarding.
You dont need to trust me, and I dont want Intrepid to trust me. However, if I show them hard data that says something is wrong, I expect them to believe that data.
As to doing this without a combat tracker, some of the bugs I have found would have taken multiple thousands of hours to find without a tracker. That would be a big "nope" from me.