Proof is in the comments its like 130+ pages now top of the thread, and people still don't agree with you after you have been fanatically fighting for it for years.
Proofs ? 130 page of topics doesnt mean people are against, even when some of people during topic changed their mind.
You are here telling your own reality... or totally lying.
Stop capping with that bs about limited to guilds, i see right through you its simply a way to convince some people to try to say ok if it doesn't effect them without realizing down the line. Typical manipulation people can see through it if they are paying attention, you can use the same arguments on you being for trackers here and then apply to down the road to all third party trackers since the features won't be enough for them. Or because they are losing points they can put into something else when they can use their own "better" tracker in their subjective mind.
What you don't understand, because you are blind, focus in your own dreamworld...
If i have a tracker that gives me all information i need, what should i bother take a third party program ?
Limited to guild : so you, that dislikes it can go on guild that won't use it, and you will NEVER get your data recorded.
The current state you are defending we already know what will happens, and there are proofs of it :
FFXIV, and the site fflogs ... And while i defend combat tracker, i have a problem with people getting their fight data recorded without they aknowledge it...
The stance that was said here, and that people like you defend here is the same stance that FFXIV has... Do you really think that doing the same thing will do a different result ?
More BS on guides I see trying to say you are getting kicked for not following a guide. Stop trying to create a comparison to move your point it isn't going to work. Guide and trackers are two completely different things. Yes people can be toxic for anything but trackers only confirm toxic behavior even more so as the image of players is less of a player and more of a numbers.
We can run it 500 pages if you want, you aren't going to bring anything new and its going to be the same old bs with disingenuous points, trying to manipulate what people say and what they want, and your same continued points that are not going to convince people. All you can go back to is saying the studio will never be able to stop us so you have to use trackers which is more bs.
I was getting kicked for playing what was considered out of meta, and what was considered meta was not what combat tracker showed, but what guides were saying.
Another example ? LoL... famous place where you can be reported for "trollpick" because you didnt took one of current meta character for your lane, or to counter the ennemy, (while you still take a character that can deal the lane, just a less strong one in current balance)
Follow guide, don't think by yourself, or get reported/kicked/flamed
Those are the problem with guides
Guides have nothing to do with "social between people" there are 0 social relationship thru guide. When you read a guide, you have no interaction with anyone. And this is a problem when reading guide becomes mandatory.
But about social : tracker allow people to gather informations. and then, when you see theorycrafters communities (heavy users of combat tracker for obvious reason) they communicate A LOT, share all they find, discuss about all those discoveries, share ideas to what test next, how to test it (when it is not so simple) etc.
And combat tracker just reduce the time to get the data in a way easy to read, to
1) spend more time playing (which include social with guildmates... )
2) spend more time sharing datas, reading other's data, discussing about it (so social)
With your "do it without tracker" you just defend the "more math, less play and social"
See what are proofs ?
I pointed a game and a site proving what i says (FFXIV/fflogs) and for tc communities, i can say for example warcraftpriest site. LA got also huge TC community. Even FFXIV where there is far less to calculate.
And before you say "we didnt need it back in good old days" false... FFXI : the players complained a lot about lack of informations about how class, stats or other things works in it. while in everquest... there was some tc.
You are so lost, all the bs you are talking about has already been debunked, if you actually read what people were saying and understood instead of only caring what you wanted you would understand what people want. The thread is open to read you are free to go through every post and read what people are saying and not look at it in a combative way.
Mobas are generally toxic and have nothing to do with mmorpgs please don't bring that up. I am the father of mobas i understand them better than anyone having been playing Warcraft 3 reign of chaos.
Knowing your stats has nothing to do with trackers, stop bringing up pointless information that relates to another topic. If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used.
You will bring up any point and say you need trackers for it when you clearly don't you are just desperately wanting them and will refuse to acknowledge what people want. Then create weird arguments as if you have changed someone's mind because you don't want to accept the fact people disagree wit you so you try to nullify peoples thoughts or what they want.
It is funny you are mentioning guides are bad when trackers are the next level what toxicity and greatly enhances guides in a undeniable way to support them and speed up their process. The meter is the "guide" you will always have with you to gauge people at any point you want. A guide is simply someone's thought on what works best for them and they share it.
And yes until there is a official ToS anything is possible in open development. Though there is a big difference in we aren't making trackers and we aren't allowing trackers Though we know they aren't developing the gameplay for trackers as it doesn't make a game better he goal of a tool is to make things easier gameplay wise.
Heck, that may still happen without DPS meters and gear score, but it will at least give them a fighting chance to be useful in endgame.
meta will appears. people will do it.
the problem is... how it will go.
Lets say an example : a game has 2 DPS builds
Build A is easy to find, quite easy to play and does 100 DPS
Build B is hard to find, little harder to play but could go up to 110 DPS.
The problem is
First build B, people will struggle to get it fine, and will do things that can reach 60 DPS, or 70... maybe 80, with a harder gameplay than build A => the build B will get considered bad to use, pushing people on A.
Also, build B is finally found, and good players are better with it than build A... ok... but many players play it bad, so they do less that what a bad players using the build A will do (because it is an easy build so...
For the second part, the tracker have no impact, except showing who is bad or not. is it a problem ? for me no. if the game is good, each can find its place (also, yes, the "bad" won't go to top end bosses but i don't see any problem with it, i find it normal. I expect a good mmorpg to have some bosses that more than 90% of players will never be able to kill it)
The combat tracker get a use there for personnal training, to see if you improved, and adapt little by little (reading a guide should never be enough to master the class, but also a long training on it)
Also, the combat tracker replace the kick for "playing out of meta" by the kick for "being bad"
For the first part... if all struggle to find out the build, due to lack of information and easy way to get datas of different test. Due to a team full of A get decent result on any bosses of the game, with no real difficulty on this part, why people would try to find out other efficient build ? The build A become the meta build to do. At any problem on fight, people will inspect stuff/build of others and if they see people trying B they will kick them out. And people will whine on forum for a better balance...
With a combat tracker, it will be far easier to figure out how to get the best from build B. the meta will stop to be "class A only".
The less data we have, the more easy people will go on things they will see fast being efficient, the people trying to push other ways will be a really small minority. This is what we saw a lot on games where there were low theorycrafting from players, but also games begining with a bad balance at launch, and even when it got far better no one bother to really work on other builds.
And because people don't want to lose time because of other people doing poor choices, instead of considering "all are equal, we are a pick up team that will stay until the win" they will kick out anyone out of those meta builds. meta builds define by... mostly what is the most obvious.
The more maths is avaible to everyone to see it, (so getting ALL effect of stats on stuff, etc, like 50 critical score = 1% crit chance or a more complex formula), the more way players have to test it, the larger the meta will be.
Also, you will say "people will focus only on the biggest DPS classes" : This is where the game design has to be good enough to avoid it (and because i have no reason to think IS will do it bad... i consider it will be a case of "well done" for AoC)
Lets add a build C : only 90 damages and is as hard to play as build B... useless ? this build is clearly better than others for kiting, or for crowd controll. And because boss fight includes adds that tank can't take... having enough build C in your team is mandatory... why not all C ? you would make the fight longer (so more problem on healers mana, more risk to do mistakes etc etc).
So we have for people who don't want to train too much / easy class to play : build A
People who want big DPS and ready to train for it : build B
People who love side utility : Build C
This is why having each class a strong identity is mandatory for a good MMORPG : it makes each class quite unique, and with a correct balance, the problem won't be "having only big DPS" but having a variety of all those uniqueness to answer to as much situation as possible.
If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used.
The problem here is - many games tell you how they think the stats work, but these are often wrong.
There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this.
If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time.
Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know.
If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used.
The problem here is - many games tell you how they think the stats work, but these are often wrong.
There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this.
If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time.
Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know.
Or you make this point know and advocate for having stats show correct terms so people know, which has nothing to do with adding trackers. You are simply using what you would view as "bad design, or not enough information." As a reason for trackers which you are simply using as a scapegoat to push for trackers.
Correct answer - The game should correctly show your your stats and skills effect your abilities correction with a detailed info of your stats. Unless they go the route of not showing damage numbers.
If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used.
The problem here is - many games tell you how they think the stats work, but these are often wrong.
There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this.
If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time.
Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know.
Or you make this point know and advocate for having stats show correct terms so people know, which has nothing to do with adding trackers. You are simply using what you would view as "bad design, or not enough information." As a reason for trackers which you are simply using as a scapegoat to push for trackers.
Correct answer - The game should correctly show your your stats and skills effect your abilities correction with a detailed info of your stats. Unless they go the route of not showing damage numbers.
The game should correctly show information- this is true.
However, many games do not. This is just a fact - if you look in to any games combat system deep enough, you will find mistakes (my honest assumption as to why Steven doesnt want trackers is that he doesnt want people like me finding mistakes in his game, literally nothing else makes sense from a game developer perspective - though obviously he wouldn't tell us that is his reason).
I mean, we can advocate all we like for tool tips and such to be correct, but unless we have a means of validating what is on them, we have no way of, well, validating them.
If we cant point to something and tell Intrepid it is wrong, they aren't going to check it.
This is actually the base level argument for trackers, everything else is secondary or tertiary arguments.
Without a combat tracker, players have no means of checking developers work. Developers have no incentive for checking their own work if players aren't able to point out issues - and as such games where players use trackers have fewer mistakes and/or bugs.
This isnt a theoretical debate, it is practical. I have given an example in this thread of a far reaching bug in an MMO that I personally pointed out to developers who then fixed it, making literally every aspect of that game better - and a tracker was absolutely key in that.
The buf in question was noticed in many different aspects of the game, but no one could figure it out for years - the developers looked in to different things a number of times that were a result of this bug, but never actually spotted it.
About the only thing you can say to this if you dont want trackers is that you are fine with bugs remaining in the game, even if they are bugs that are noticable.
Absolutely not. Literally all a DPS meter does is bring toxicity and we'll already have plenty of that in an Open World PvP game. Nobody needs a DPS meter. Nobody.-
Absolutely not. Literally all a DPS meter does is bring toxicity and we'll already have plenty of that in an Open World PvP game. Nobody needs a DPS meter. Nobody.-
Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I`m intrigued as to these complex high level / difficult raids that some believe a tracker is imperative for.
Can anyone post a youtube link to a clear example from another MMO?
Absolutely not. Literally all a DPS meter does is bring toxicity and we'll already have plenty of that in an Open World PvP game. Nobody needs a DPS meter. Nobody.-
Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
It's pretty obvious that certain class combos will have a higher DPS thus automatically making top guilds aiming to have those specs into their raid parties, forcing a meta from the get go. And obviously, even random parties will have people complaining about someone not doing enough DPS.
Are you in such a rush to have 80% of the class combos outside raid parties?...
I repeat. There is NOTHING that requires a DPS meter. If you're playing the game, you know what your gear is and the damage you're doing. You can easily compare it to others. You don't need a DPS meter to kill bosses in an open world PvP. Nothing that helps to enforce a meta is a good idea and a DPS meter is the most meta enforcing trash you can possibly add to the game.
Absolutely not. Literally all a DPS meter does is bring toxicity and we'll already have plenty of that in an Open World PvP game. Nobody needs a DPS meter. Nobody.-
Agreed thankfully most people here agree with you its just a handful that keep posting trying to change it and get dps meters (same people from years ago)
If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used.
The problem here is - many games tell you how they think the stats work, but these are often wrong.
There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this.
If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time.
Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know.
Or you make this point know and advocate for having stats show correct terms so people know, which has nothing to do with adding trackers. You are simply using what you would view as "bad design, or not enough information." As a reason for trackers which you are simply using as a scapegoat to push for trackers.
Correct answer - The game should correctly show your your stats and skills effect your abilities correction with a detailed info of your stats. Unless they go the route of not showing damage numbers.
The game should correctly show information- this is true.
However, many games do not. This is just a fact - if you look in to any games combat system deep enough, you will find mistakes (my honest assumption as to why Steven doesnt want trackers is that he doesnt want people like me finding mistakes in his game, literally nothing else makes sense from a game developer perspective - though obviously he wouldn't tell us that is his reason).
I mean, we can advocate all we like for tool tips and such to be correct, but unless we have a means of validating what is on them, we have no way of, well, validating them.
If we cant point to something and tell Intrepid it is wrong, they aren't going to check it.
This is actually the base level argument for trackers, everything else is secondary or tertiary arguments.
Without a combat tracker, players have no means of checking developers work. Developers have no incentive for checking their own work if players aren't able to point out issues - and as such games where players use trackers have fewer mistakes and/or bugs.
This isnt a theoretical debate, it is practical. I have given an example in this thread of a far reaching bug in an MMO that I personally pointed out to developers who then fixed it, making literally every aspect of that game better - and a tracker was absolutely key in that.
The buf in question was noticed in many different aspects of the game, but no one could figure it out for years - the developers looked in to different things a number of times that were a result of this bug, but never actually spotted it.
About the only thing you can say to this if you dont want trackers is that you are fine with bugs remaining in the game, even if they are bugs that are noticable.
You aren't a developer you don't need tools to be looking for mistakes, that is not a reason to have a dps meter. If you think there is a issue test your damage out on mobs and see if things are being applied and such. If you don't believe in the devs to make a game and fix issues or bugs they find, they play or support a game where you think devs will do a better job.
All i see is weird arguments for trackers and you continue trying to use anything possible including bad faith. If you want to help solve dev issues, apply for a QA position.
Absolutely not. Literally all a DPS meter does is bring toxicity and we'll already have plenty of that in an Open World PvP game. Nobody needs a DPS meter. Nobody.-
Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
It's pretty obvious that certain class combos will have a higher DPS thus automatically making top guilds aiming to have those specs into their raid parties, forcing a meta from the get go. And obviously, even random parties will have people complaining about someone not doing enough DPS.
Are you in such a rush to have 80% of the class combos outside raid parties?...
I repeat. There is NOTHING that requires a DPS meter. If you're playing the game, you know what your gear is and the damage you're doing. You can easily compare it to others. You don't need a DPS meter to kill bosses in an open world PvP. Nothing that helps to enforce a meta is a good idea and a DPS meter is the most meta enforcing trash you can possibly add to the game.
Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
@Noaani
It's funny how myself and others have tried to explain this, but you seem to refuse to try and understand our point of view. It's ok that you probably have a different view for what "toxic" means...but you also need to acknowledge that others ALSO have a different view of what it means.
Here it is again, since you seemed to miss it the first time.
I want to try and explain to you that "toxic" behavior is a very broad subject and is different for each player. You seem to be stuck on this example of kicking players from parties, but I would argue that is the least of my worries. I will try to provide examples of what I mean, and what makes me personally not enjoy PvE content as much when meters are heavily involved.
* Note: the term "toxic" is very much subjective and it not the same for every individual *
When meters become part of the average player's UI, it tends to be something they end up fixating on. Examples of how the average player can feel "toxic":
- They look more at the meters more than the fight's mechanics, leading to wipes
- They only talk to others about how much damage they did, compared to others. leading to repetitive and stale conversations. It becomes not enjoyable to do content with that player.
- They view meters as required to do ALL content, and not just the hardest. Leading to flaming others for not using it, or gatekeeping.
Now the obvious rebuttal to this type of behavior is "just don't play with those people"....but the problem is that this behavior is MUCH more likely to show up in the average player when meters are easily accessible and/or accepted. And now it becomes more difficult for me to find a solid group of players to play with, that isn't tainted by one of these "toxic" players.
Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
@Noaani
It's funny how myself and others have tried to explain this, but you seem to refuse to try and understand our point of view. It's ok that you probably have a different view for what "toxic" means...but you also need to acknowledge that others ALSO have a different view of what it means.
Here it is again, since you seemed to miss it the first time.
I want to try and explain to you that "toxic" behavior is a very broad subject and is different for each player. You seem to be stuck on this example of kicking players from parties, but I would argue that is the least of my worries. I will try to provide examples of what I mean, and what makes me personally not enjoy PvE content as much when meters are heavily involved.
* Note: the term "toxic" is very much subjective and it not the same for every individual *
When meters become part of the average player's UI, it tends to be something they end up fixating on. Examples of how the average player can feel "toxic":
- They look more at the meters more than the fight's mechanics, leading to wipes
- They only talk to others about how much damage they did, compared to others. leading to repetitive and stale conversations. It becomes not enjoyable to do content with that player.
- They view meters as required to do ALL content, and not just the hardest. Leading to flaming others for not using it, or gatekeeping.
Now the obvious rebuttal to this type of behavior is "just don't play with those people"....but the problem is that this behavior is MUCH more likely to show up in the average player when meters are easily accessible and/or accepted. And now it becomes more difficult for me to find a solid group of players to play with, that isn't tainted by one of these "toxic" players.
He has never seen a toxic thing happen because of trackers, his own words. Most likely because he is on that toxic side of things and expects everyone to do as he says lmao.
It's pretty obvious that certain class combos will have a higher DPS thus automatically making top guilds aiming to have those specs into their raid parties, forcing a meta from the get go. And obviously, even random parties will have people complaining about someone not doing enough DPS.
So, what you are saying is that you dont want combat trackers, because us having combat trackers will expose Intrepida incompetence?
I mean, if the game is developed properly, if class balance is set to where different builds have apros and cons in different situations, then all a combat tracker will do is show players that this is the case.
I personally believe Intrepid are competent enough to balance classes well enough so that different builds have benefits in different situations. Should this be the case, combat trackers straight up cant result in the situation you are talking about.
So, what your argument here kind of comes down to is that if Intrwpid are shit at developing their game,a tracker will expose that. However, if they are good at developing their game, a tracker will show that.
With the above in mind, Steven is against trackers.
I mean, if the game is developed properly, if class balance is set to where different builds have apros and cons in different situations, then all a combat tracker will do is show players that this is the case.
Classes that outDPS others will always be better in raid groups. It doesn't matter if other classes shine in other areas or if the top DPS classes actually suck at actual PvP. World bosses will be the #1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 priority for every big alliance in the game. The moment you discover a single combo is the best, tryhards guilds will immediately have 20 people reroll to one of them.
There's nothing more to be discussed. If you want to force a meta, get DPS meters and instantly kill 80% of the classes. Or don't because why even bother when NOBODY needs a DPS meter.
Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
@Noaani
It's funny how myself and others have tried to explain this, but you seem to refuse to try and understand our point of view. It's ok that you probably have a different view for what "toxic" means...but you also need to acknowledge that others ALSO have a different view of what it means.
Here it is again, since you seemed to miss it the first time.
So, I already addressed that post.
Just because you think all of what you said is valid without debate, that doesnt mean it is.
First if all, you are claiming that a discussion in group that you do not like is considered toxic.
That is just bullshit. Stop being a snowflake, you do not get to dictate what others talk about. Even thinking that is a valid argument is beyond ridiculous and you should feel both shame and embarrassment for making that argument.
If someone else wants to look at their meter more than the game then OBVIOUSLY they enjoy playing the game with a meter active. This is because there is absolutely no need to have it on screen at all, so someone that has it on screen obviously has it there because they want it there.
If that is how someone else gets the most enjoyment out of the game,who are you to say it is an issue?
As to people thinking meters are needed for all content and so giving others grief, this is only a potential situation if all content is made in a complex manner where people even could think that.
If Intrepid make much of the content specifically assuming people donr need trackers, then people would have to be pretty stupid to assume you do need trackers, as it would be obvious that you do not.
Classes that outDPS others will always be better in raid groups.
Not true.
Any given DPS class absolutely will have a build that is highest DPS. In this, I assume we agree.
In a game like WoW, this build will be considered the only viable build, as it is the best at DPS, and I'd you are a DPA class filling a DPS slot in a raid, then your DPS is actually all you are there for. I assume we also agree here.
However, in Ashes, this wont be the case. Sure, that class may be the best DPS, but it is probably going to be shit at PvP. Since the bulk of content in Ashes will see PvP remain a possibility almost all the time, it will often be preferable for people to drop some of that DPS in place of some survivability or utility - things supplied to the raid via other roles in instanced PvE.
As such, guilds will likely be happy to see DPS players drop an amount of top end DPS on place of some survivability or utility - and a tracker is key to assisting in this.
If avoiding a meta is your biggest driving force here, I suggest you look in to Archeage.
That game had 56 classes, very low combat tracker use,and a meta that only allowed players to use 3 builds - that meta remains unchanged for 5 years.
The problem there was people developed the meta, and so everyone just ran with it. Without combat trackers being used by many people, no one actually checked the meta to see if it was all that good.
No one was able to break the meta for years because the meta was the meta, and no one was able to provide objective data that any other builds were better - because no one had objective data.
No one wants dps meters lmao, we are going to get to 200 pages and people saying they don't want it and you are going to forget all their view points and discredt them like the other people in last 100 pages. The loop continues you don't care what people want, just what you want.
No one wants dps meters lmao, we are going to get to 200 pages and people saying they don't want it and you are going to forget all their view points and discredt them like the other people in last 100 pages. The loop continues you don't care what people want, just what you want.
Yes, I will discredit viewpoints that have no merit to them. Any view or opinion that has no merit should be discredited.
I mean, you are just asking for your opinion to be discredited if you are saying something that many people enjoy shouldnt be in the game because someone else doesnt like the way they enjoy it (I dont want trackers because some players may spend too long looking at them). That just isnt a good take on things at all.
No one wants dps meters lmao, we are going to get to 200 pages and people saying they don't want it and you are going to forget all their view points and discredt them like the other people in last 100 pages. The loop continues you don't care what people want, just what you want.
Yes, I will discredit viewpoints that have no merit to them. Any view or opinion that has no merit should be discredited.
I mean, you are just asking for your opinion to be discredited if you are saying something that many people enjoy shouldnt be in the game because someone else doesnt like the way they enjoy it (I dont want trackers because some players may spend too long looking at them). That just isnt a good take on things at all.
lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't.
lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't.
Which points of mine are weak?
Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works.
lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't.
Which points of mine are weak?
Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works.
This is my main point.
Where is the weakness in that point?
You don't need tools to check the work of developers that is not a point for trackers to be in the game. You are a player not a developers. If you don't trust the devs and think you need special tools to watch over them don't play the game.
Not me, i am not a child anymore,
I saw lot of devs doing mistakes, for a simple reason : they are human.
I saw games were mistakes needed players to gather datas (lot of datas sometime) to prove there was a mistake, and get it fixed by devs. because bugs are not only doing only 33% crit when your character sheet says 66%... It can be far more insidious to have it.
MMORPGs are far from avoid it. And it is not a problem, i have nothing against developers doing mistake, even big mistake... I have a problem with all those mistake...
I would trust nobody to do a perfect work, free of failure, mistake, bug. Including excellent devs like those in fromsoftware or Team Cherry. Because they are nothing more than human.
And as customer, and sometime fan, i have to help them to correct bugs, and other mistakes. How ? finding them, and not only finding them, trying to repeat, understand them, to show to devs as much information as possible to allow them to find it fast. And it can even include doing retro-engineering... Which was a thing on any online game then and now.
No one wants dps meters lmao, we are going to get to 200 pages and people saying they don't want it and you are going to forget all their view points and discredt them like the other people in last 100 pages. The loop continues you don't care what people want, just what you want.
One of your argument is about opposing tracker versus social interaction.
A topic is a social interaction, so i think you consider fine to have people express their thought, get an answer from nooani, and maybe have them speak, debate, share thought about it right ? Those are real social interaction.
your post seems like you think this topic should stop now so i am surprised.
Now, i have a question : define "nobody wants combat tracker"
Because, some want tracker (there are post of people with low post saying they are totally fine with it, without even reading about the "limited to a guild perk" idea). You claim "nobody" so first, define a more clear way what is "nobody" ...
For me nobody = 0
this is the problem with you : you do claims, try to say what you think is a truth, but this is your truth and only yours... this nobody, a simple quote and this becomes false.
You are not even here to discuss or debate, just doing your claims.
So here is my real question : what do you really hope ?
lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't.
Which points of mine are weak?
Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works.
This is my main point.
Where is the weakness in that point?
You don't need tools to check the work of developers that is not a point for trackers to be in the game. You are a player not a developers. If you don't trust the devs and think you need special tools to watch over them don't play the game.
I trust developers to want to make their game as good as it can be.
However, developers are people. People can make mistakes.
As I have said, using trackers, I have identified and confirmed a number of bugs in a number of games that developers have missed - and I am just one player. One of those bugs in particular affected almost literally every aspect if that game.
This isnt a reach, this is a real world, recurring thing that every game and every player of every game benefits from.
I dont think you are I any position to tell me what the point of trackers is or is not. That is like telling someone that the point of a screwdriver is to build shelves, you cant use it to build a bench.
Obviously, the purpose of a screwdriver is to drive screws. That can be shelves, that can be a bench. It is up to the user to decide what they want to do.
Likewise, a trackers purpose is to collect and display data. If a player wishes to use that to better their build, or to work out an encounter, or to investigate a games combat system, that is obviously up to the individual user.
I cant see how anyone could believe anything other than the above.
Players do and want different things in games and allowing as many of those playstyles as possible is crucial imo. If you have the choice of using the meters or not that's a good thing.
There will be always people who minmax to the extreme and refuse to play with players who don't, but that's a social aspect- everyone has the right to choose if they want to play with someone or not, you cannot make someone play with you against their will. Instead you yourself find people who will be happy to play with you.
I think meters are very usefull, not only for seeing good and bad dps, but also to perfecting your build, and rotation. Without a meter it's really difficult to see if what im doing is good or bad. And I believe that if those meters aren't build into the game third party addons will be a thing -ff is a good example of that.
lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't.
Which points of mine are weak?
Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works.
This is my main point.
Where is the weakness in that point?
You don't need tools to check the work of developers that is not a point for trackers to be in the game. You are a player not a developers. If you don't trust the devs and think you need special tools to watch over them don't play the game.
I trust developers to want to make their game as good as it can be.
However, developers are people. People can make mistakes.
As I have said, using trackers, I have identified and confirmed a number of bugs in a number of games that developers have missed - and I am just one player. One of those bugs in particular affected almost literally every aspect if that game.
This isnt a reach, this is a real world, recurring thing that every game and every player of every game benefits from.
I dont think you are I any position to tell me what the point of trackers is or is not. That is like telling someone that the point of a screwdriver is to build shelves, you cant use it to build a bench.
Obviously, the purpose of a screwdriver is to drive screws. That can be shelves, that can be a bench. It is up to the user to decide what they want to do.
Likewise, a trackers purpose is to collect and display data. If a player wishes to use that to better their build, or to work out an encounter, or to investigate a games combat system, that is obviously up to the individual user.
I cant see how anyone could believe anything other than the above.
You aren't a developer you don't need tools to "test the developers for mistakes" you can do that without tools if you really care that much. If you want to help with bugs apply for a QA position.
Game is not being designed for trackers. You can test your stuff without trackers by putting in some actual effort and research into your build you don't need trackers for that.
Also i don't trust our ass so there is that as well
Not me, i am not a child anymore,
I saw lot of devs doing mistakes, for a simple reason : they are human.
I saw games were mistakes needed players to gather datas (lot of datas sometime) to prove there was a mistake, and get it fixed by devs. because bugs are not only doing only 33% crit when your character sheet says 66%... It can be far more insidious to have it.
MMORPGs are far from avoid it. And it is not a problem, i have nothing against developers doing mistake, even big mistake... I have a problem with all those mistake...
I would trust nobody to do a perfect work, free of failure, mistake, bug. Including excellent devs like those in fromsoftware or Team Cherry. Because they are nothing more than human.
And as customer, and sometime fan, i have to help them to correct bugs, and other mistakes. How ? finding them, and not only finding them, trying to repeat, understand them, to show to devs as much information as possible to allow them to find it fast. And it can even include doing retro-engineering... Which was a thing on any online game then and now.
No one wants dps meters lmao, we are going to get to 200 pages and people saying they don't want it and you are going to forget all their view points and discredt them like the other people in last 100 pages. The loop continues you don't care what people want, just what you want.
One of your argument is about opposing tracker versus social interaction.
A topic is a social interaction, so i think you consider fine to have people express their thought, get an answer from nooani, and maybe have them speak, debate, share thought about it right ? Those are real social interaction.
your post seems like you think this topic should stop now so i am surprised.
Now, i have a question : define "nobody wants combat tracker"
Because, some want tracker (there are post of people with low post saying they are totally fine with it, without even reading about the "limited to a guild perk" idea). You claim "nobody" so first, define a more clear way what is "nobody" ...
For me nobody = 0
this is the problem with you : you do claims, try to say what you think is a truth, but this is your truth and only yours... this nobody, a simple quote and this becomes false.
You are not even here to discuss or debate, just doing your claims.
So here is my real question : what do you really hope ?
Go back and read the pages in a mind set where you are being competitive and not caring what people say. You just choose to ignore the truth when you can go back and read and understand, what ever the community and devs support is what I am for.
And yes the guild perk is BS because you can use the same argument here for guild perk to 3rd party trackers. It is pretty clear your starting goal is tracker sin the game and then next goal will be trackers to scan everyone and then it snow balls into other issues.
Then help them by applying for a QA position or do the actual work to find bugs as you can without a tool. You aren't a developer you don't need special tools for finding them that is not a reason to include trackers you are reaching.
Players do and want different things in games and allowing as many of those playstyles as possible is crucial imo. If you have the choice of using the meters or not that's a good thing.
There will be always people who minmax to the extreme and refuse to play with players who don't, but that's a social aspect- everyone has the right to choose if they want to play with someone or not, you cannot make someone play with you against their will. Instead you yourself find people who will be happy to play with you.
I think meters are very usefull, not only for seeing good and bad dps, but also to perfecting your build, and rotation. Without a meter it's really difficult to see if what im doing is good or bad. And I believe that if those meters aren't build into the game third party addons will be a thing -ff is a good example of that.
You can see what you are doing dps wise if you test your damage against mobs and do a lot of test attacks. Meters are toxic and that is what it will lead to in people focusing on the bad dps without understanding reasons for it. You don't need a tool that tells you everything in the game stat and detail wise you need to be figuring things out on your own. Everyone is aware regardless of effective a tracker will be you gave all the information you need from it regardless on what mobs will do and it is effectively cheating.
One point of the tool is to make the experience easier understood not from your own knowledge but having all that bs on your screen to tell you and look over. Figure that out on your own it will be a lot more rewarding.
Comments
You are so lost, all the bs you are talking about has already been debunked, if you actually read what people were saying and understood instead of only caring what you wanted you would understand what people want. The thread is open to read you are free to go through every post and read what people are saying and not look at it in a combative way.
Mobas are generally toxic and have nothing to do with mmorpgs please don't bring that up. I am the father of mobas i understand them better than anyone having been playing Warcraft 3 reign of chaos.
Knowing your stats has nothing to do with trackers, stop bringing up pointless information that relates to another topic. If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used.
You will bring up any point and say you need trackers for it when you clearly don't you are just desperately wanting them and will refuse to acknowledge what people want. Then create weird arguments as if you have changed someone's mind because you don't want to accept the fact people disagree wit you so you try to nullify peoples thoughts or what they want.
It is funny you are mentioning guides are bad when trackers are the next level what toxicity and greatly enhances guides in a undeniable way to support them and speed up their process. The meter is the "guide" you will always have with you to gauge people at any point you want. A guide is simply someone's thought on what works best for them and they share it.
And yes until there is a official ToS anything is possible in open development. Though there is a big difference in we aren't making trackers and we aren't allowing trackers Though we know they aren't developing the gameplay for trackers as it doesn't make a game better he goal of a tool is to make things easier gameplay wise.
meta will appears. people will do it.
the problem is... how it will go.
Lets say an example : a game has 2 DPS builds
Build A is easy to find, quite easy to play and does 100 DPS
Build B is hard to find, little harder to play but could go up to 110 DPS.
The problem is
First build B, people will struggle to get it fine, and will do things that can reach 60 DPS, or 70... maybe 80, with a harder gameplay than build A => the build B will get considered bad to use, pushing people on A.
Also, build B is finally found, and good players are better with it than build A... ok... but many players play it bad, so they do less that what a bad players using the build A will do (because it is an easy build so...
For the second part, the tracker have no impact, except showing who is bad or not. is it a problem ? for me no. if the game is good, each can find its place (also, yes, the "bad" won't go to top end bosses but i don't see any problem with it, i find it normal. I expect a good mmorpg to have some bosses that more than 90% of players will never be able to kill it)
The combat tracker get a use there for personnal training, to see if you improved, and adapt little by little (reading a guide should never be enough to master the class, but also a long training on it)
Also, the combat tracker replace the kick for "playing out of meta" by the kick for "being bad"
For the first part... if all struggle to find out the build, due to lack of information and easy way to get datas of different test. Due to a team full of A get decent result on any bosses of the game, with no real difficulty on this part, why people would try to find out other efficient build ? The build A become the meta build to do. At any problem on fight, people will inspect stuff/build of others and if they see people trying B they will kick them out. And people will whine on forum for a better balance...
With a combat tracker, it will be far easier to figure out how to get the best from build B. the meta will stop to be "class A only".
The less data we have, the more easy people will go on things they will see fast being efficient, the people trying to push other ways will be a really small minority. This is what we saw a lot on games where there were low theorycrafting from players, but also games begining with a bad balance at launch, and even when it got far better no one bother to really work on other builds.
And because people don't want to lose time because of other people doing poor choices, instead of considering "all are equal, we are a pick up team that will stay until the win" they will kick out anyone out of those meta builds. meta builds define by... mostly what is the most obvious.
The more maths is avaible to everyone to see it, (so getting ALL effect of stats on stuff, etc, like 50 critical score = 1% crit chance or a more complex formula), the more way players have to test it, the larger the meta will be.
Also, you will say "people will focus only on the biggest DPS classes" : This is where the game design has to be good enough to avoid it (and because i have no reason to think IS will do it bad... i consider it will be a case of "well done" for AoC)
Lets add a build C : only 90 damages and is as hard to play as build B... useless ? this build is clearly better than others for kiting, or for crowd controll. And because boss fight includes adds that tank can't take... having enough build C in your team is mandatory... why not all C ? you would make the fight longer (so more problem on healers mana, more risk to do mistakes etc etc).
So we have for people who don't want to train too much / easy class to play : build A
People who want big DPS and ready to train for it : build B
People who love side utility : Build C
This is why having each class a strong identity is mandatory for a good MMORPG : it makes each class quite unique, and with a correct balance, the problem won't be "having only big DPS" but having a variety of all those uniqueness to answer to as much situation as possible.
There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this.
If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time.
Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know.
Or you make this point know and advocate for having stats show correct terms so people know, which has nothing to do with adding trackers. You are simply using what you would view as "bad design, or not enough information." As a reason for trackers which you are simply using as a scapegoat to push for trackers.
Correct answer - The game should correctly show your your stats and skills effect your abilities correction with a detailed info of your stats. Unless they go the route of not showing damage numbers.
The game should correctly show information- this is true.
However, many games do not. This is just a fact - if you look in to any games combat system deep enough, you will find mistakes (my honest assumption as to why Steven doesnt want trackers is that he doesnt want people like me finding mistakes in his game, literally nothing else makes sense from a game developer perspective - though obviously he wouldn't tell us that is his reason).
I mean, we can advocate all we like for tool tips and such to be correct, but unless we have a means of validating what is on them, we have no way of, well, validating them.
If we cant point to something and tell Intrepid it is wrong, they aren't going to check it.
This is actually the base level argument for trackers, everything else is secondary or tertiary arguments.
Without a combat tracker, players have no means of checking developers work. Developers have no incentive for checking their own work if players aren't able to point out issues - and as such games where players use trackers have fewer mistakes and/or bugs.
This isnt a theoretical debate, it is practical. I have given an example in this thread of a far reaching bug in an MMO that I personally pointed out to developers who then fixed it, making literally every aspect of that game better - and a tracker was absolutely key in that.
The buf in question was noticed in many different aspects of the game, but no one could figure it out for years - the developers looked in to different things a number of times that were a result of this bug, but never actually spotted it.
About the only thing you can say to this if you dont want trackers is that you are fine with bugs remaining in the game, even if they are bugs that are noticable.
@HybridSR
Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
Can anyone post a youtube link to a clear example from another MMO?
I mean, anything remotely hard in WoW would never have been figured out without a tracker.
Sure, you and your guild may not need one. You just use the guides you find.
However, the people that worked out the encounters originally, and thus were in a position to then make guides - they needed trackers.
It's pretty obvious that certain class combos will have a higher DPS thus automatically making top guilds aiming to have those specs into their raid parties, forcing a meta from the get go. And obviously, even random parties will have people complaining about someone not doing enough DPS.
Are you in such a rush to have 80% of the class combos outside raid parties?...
I repeat. There is NOTHING that requires a DPS meter. If you're playing the game, you know what your gear is and the damage you're doing. You can easily compare it to others. You don't need a DPS meter to kill bosses in an open world PvP. Nothing that helps to enforce a meta is a good idea and a DPS meter is the most meta enforcing trash you can possibly add to the game.
Again, no thanks-
Agreed thankfully most people here agree with you its just a handful that keep posting trying to change it and get dps meters (same people from years ago)
You aren't a developer you don't need tools to be looking for mistakes, that is not a reason to have a dps meter. If you think there is a issue test your damage out on mobs and see if things are being applied and such. If you don't believe in the devs to make a game and fix issues or bugs they find, they play or support a game where you think devs will do a better job.
All i see is weird arguments for trackers and you continue trying to use anything possible including bad faith. If you want to help solve dev issues, apply for a QA position.
preach.
@Noaani
It's funny how myself and others have tried to explain this, but you seem to refuse to try and understand our point of view. It's ok that you probably have a different view for what "toxic" means...but you also need to acknowledge that others ALSO have a different view of what it means.
Here it is again, since you seemed to miss it the first time.
He has never seen a toxic thing happen because of trackers, his own words. Most likely because he is on that toxic side of things and expects everyone to do as he says lmao.
So, what you are saying is that you dont want combat trackers, because us having combat trackers will expose Intrepida incompetence?
I mean, if the game is developed properly, if class balance is set to where different builds have apros and cons in different situations, then all a combat tracker will do is show players that this is the case.
I personally believe Intrepid are competent enough to balance classes well enough so that different builds have benefits in different situations. Should this be the case, combat trackers straight up cant result in the situation you are talking about.
So, what your argument here kind of comes down to is that if Intrwpid are shit at developing their game,a tracker will expose that. However, if they are good at developing their game, a tracker will show that.
With the above in mind, Steven is against trackers.
Classes that outDPS others will always be better in raid groups. It doesn't matter if other classes shine in other areas or if the top DPS classes actually suck at actual PvP. World bosses will be the #1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 priority for every big alliance in the game. The moment you discover a single combo is the best, tryhards guilds will immediately have 20 people reroll to one of them.
There's nothing more to be discussed. If you want to force a meta, get DPS meters and instantly kill 80% of the classes. Or don't because why even bother when NOBODY needs a DPS meter.
So, I already addressed that post.
Just because you think all of what you said is valid without debate, that doesnt mean it is.
First if all, you are claiming that a discussion in group that you do not like is considered toxic.
That is just bullshit. Stop being a snowflake, you do not get to dictate what others talk about. Even thinking that is a valid argument is beyond ridiculous and you should feel both shame and embarrassment for making that argument.
If someone else wants to look at their meter more than the game then OBVIOUSLY they enjoy playing the game with a meter active. This is because there is absolutely no need to have it on screen at all, so someone that has it on screen obviously has it there because they want it there.
If that is how someone else gets the most enjoyment out of the game,who are you to say it is an issue?
As to people thinking meters are needed for all content and so giving others grief, this is only a potential situation if all content is made in a complex manner where people even could think that.
If Intrepid make much of the content specifically assuming people donr need trackers, then people would have to be pretty stupid to assume you do need trackers, as it would be obvious that you do not.
Any given DPS class absolutely will have a build that is highest DPS. In this, I assume we agree.
In a game like WoW, this build will be considered the only viable build, as it is the best at DPS, and I'd you are a DPA class filling a DPS slot in a raid, then your DPS is actually all you are there for. I assume we also agree here.
However, in Ashes, this wont be the case. Sure, that class may be the best DPS, but it is probably going to be shit at PvP. Since the bulk of content in Ashes will see PvP remain a possibility almost all the time, it will often be preferable for people to drop some of that DPS in place of some survivability or utility - things supplied to the raid via other roles in instanced PvE.
As such, guilds will likely be happy to see DPS players drop an amount of top end DPS on place of some survivability or utility - and a tracker is key to assisting in this.
If avoiding a meta is your biggest driving force here, I suggest you look in to Archeage.
That game had 56 classes, very low combat tracker use,and a meta that only allowed players to use 3 builds - that meta remains unchanged for 5 years.
The problem there was people developed the meta, and so everyone just ran with it. Without combat trackers being used by many people, no one actually checked the meta to see if it was all that good.
No one was able to break the meta for years because the meta was the meta, and no one was able to provide objective data that any other builds were better - because no one had objective data.
Yes, I will discredit viewpoints that have no merit to them. Any view or opinion that has no merit should be discredited.
I mean, you are just asking for your opinion to be discredited if you are saying something that many people enjoy shouldnt be in the game because someone else doesnt like the way they enjoy it (I dont want trackers because some players may spend too long looking at them). That just isnt a good take on things at all.
lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't.
Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works.
This is my main point.
Where is the weakness in that point?
You don't need tools to check the work of developers that is not a point for trackers to be in the game. You are a player not a developers. If you don't trust the devs and think you need special tools to watch over them don't play the game.
Literally you reaching for trackers
Not me, i am not a child anymore,
I saw lot of devs doing mistakes, for a simple reason : they are human.
I saw games were mistakes needed players to gather datas (lot of datas sometime) to prove there was a mistake, and get it fixed by devs. because bugs are not only doing only 33% crit when your character sheet says 66%... It can be far more insidious to have it.
MMORPGs are far from avoid it. And it is not a problem, i have nothing against developers doing mistake, even big mistake... I have a problem with all those mistake...
I would trust nobody to do a perfect work, free of failure, mistake, bug. Including excellent devs like those in fromsoftware or Team Cherry. Because they are nothing more than human.
And as customer, and sometime fan, i have to help them to correct bugs, and other mistakes. How ? finding them, and not only finding them, trying to repeat, understand them, to show to devs as much information as possible to allow them to find it fast. And it can even include doing retro-engineering... Which was a thing on any online game then and now.
One of your argument is about opposing tracker versus social interaction.
A topic is a social interaction, so i think you consider fine to have people express their thought, get an answer from nooani, and maybe have them speak, debate, share thought about it right ? Those are real social interaction.
your post seems like you think this topic should stop now so i am surprised.
Now, i have a question : define "nobody wants combat tracker"
Because, some want tracker (there are post of people with low post saying they are totally fine with it, without even reading about the "limited to a guild perk" idea). You claim "nobody" so first, define a more clear way what is "nobody" ...
For me nobody = 0
this is the problem with you : you do claims, try to say what you think is a truth, but this is your truth and only yours... this nobody, a simple quote and this becomes false.
You are not even here to discuss or debate, just doing your claims.
So here is my real question : what do you really hope ?
However, developers are people. People can make mistakes.
As I have said, using trackers, I have identified and confirmed a number of bugs in a number of games that developers have missed - and I am just one player. One of those bugs in particular affected almost literally every aspect if that game.
This isnt a reach, this is a real world, recurring thing that every game and every player of every game benefits from.
I dont think you are I any position to tell me what the point of trackers is or is not. That is like telling someone that the point of a screwdriver is to build shelves, you cant use it to build a bench.
Obviously, the purpose of a screwdriver is to drive screws. That can be shelves, that can be a bench. It is up to the user to decide what they want to do.
Likewise, a trackers purpose is to collect and display data. If a player wishes to use that to better their build, or to work out an encounter, or to investigate a games combat system, that is obviously up to the individual user.
I cant see how anyone could believe anything other than the above.
There will be always people who minmax to the extreme and refuse to play with players who don't, but that's a social aspect- everyone has the right to choose if they want to play with someone or not, you cannot make someone play with you against their will. Instead you yourself find people who will be happy to play with you.
I think meters are very usefull, not only for seeing good and bad dps, but also to perfecting your build, and rotation. Without a meter it's really difficult to see if what im doing is good or bad. And I believe that if those meters aren't build into the game third party addons will be a thing -ff is a good example of that.
You aren't a developer you don't need tools to "test the developers for mistakes" you can do that without tools if you really care that much. If you want to help with bugs apply for a QA position.
Game is not being designed for trackers. You can test your stuff without trackers by putting in some actual effort and research into your build you don't need trackers for that.
Also i don't trust our ass so there is that as well
Go back and read the pages in a mind set where you are being competitive and not caring what people say. You just choose to ignore the truth when you can go back and read and understand, what ever the community and devs support is what I am for.
And yes the guild perk is BS because you can use the same argument here for guild perk to 3rd party trackers. It is pretty clear your starting goal is tracker sin the game and then next goal will be trackers to scan everyone and then it snow balls into other issues.
Then help them by applying for a QA position or do the actual work to find bugs as you can without a tool. You aren't a developer you don't need special tools for finding them that is not a reason to include trackers you are reaching.
You can see what you are doing dps wise if you test your damage against mobs and do a lot of test attacks. Meters are toxic and that is what it will lead to in people focusing on the bad dps without understanding reasons for it. You don't need a tool that tells you everything in the game stat and detail wise you need to be figuring things out on your own. Everyone is aware regardless of effective a tracker will be you gave all the information you need from it regardless on what mobs will do and it is effectively cheating.
One point of the tool is to make the experience easier understood not from your own knowledge but having all that bs on your screen to tell you and look over. Figure that out on your own it will be a lot more rewarding.