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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Will it be in pick up groups, or guild groups?
I'll let you in on a tip - pick up groups in Ashes will be a very rare thing. People wont want to group up with people they do not know. 95%+ of all groups will be with people you know in some form.
As such, the scope for toxicity from trackers is damn close to zero - unless you consider a good friend trying to help you out to be toxic - in which case you are the toxic person and no matter what happens, toxicity will follow you around.
So you finally admit that toxicity from trackers is non-zero.
I never said it wasnt.
I said I have literally never seen it first hand, and so have asked others for examples where they think they have seen toxicity due to trackers that wouldn't happen otherwise. Most of that toxicity that has been talked about it actually caused by other things (players not sticking to the meta) and would exist with or without trackers.
If anything, the demand on players to stick to the games meta is even stronger without a tracker than with it.
A key thing to remember though, minimal toxicity from trackers is not a reason to not have them. There are definite advantages to them (you may never have seen that advantage, but remember that I have never seen that toxicity), and it is simply a matter of whether the amount of toxicity they add to the game is greater or lesser than the amount of good they bring to the game.
@Noaani Sorry If I misrepresented your previous statements, hopefully you can see why someone might misunderstand your opinion.
Based on the current stance of the studio, it would seem they believe the amount of toxicity they bring is greater than the good the bring.
You seem to want to prove otherwise...but something as subjective as "toxicity" can't be proven, and the best we can do is uphold the majority's opinion.
I'm fully aware people think toxicity can come from a tracker, and fully willing to believe that is the case at times. Hiwever, so far I have neither seen it happen, nor heard anyone give an example of where it would happen with a tracker but not without.
As to my stance that you can not say that trackers cause toxicity, that remains true. Again, if that were true, games like EQ, EQ2, Rift, DDO, LotRO and a number if others would have toxic communities, as they have high tracker use.
Since the above games are among the least toxic MMO communities around, and since Archeage has a toxic as all hell community with low tracker use, that essentially disproves the statement that trackers cause toxicity.
If you look at the two MMO's with the most toxic communities (WoW and Archheage, imo) the thing they have in common that games with low toxicity do not have, is a means of automatically forming groups, and automatically replacing people in said groups.
The other thing with this is that on both games, toxicity began in the parts of the game where groups were able to be formed automatically, and moved out from there (you can see this in WoW quite clearly in the late 2000's).
As such, literally any and all toxicity that happens while in a group formed via these systems (LFG and LFR in WoW) is a result of those systems, not of combat trackers.
This is because if you didnt have trackers, that toxicity would still be there (Archeage is your example), but if players had to form their own groups but still had trackers, that toxicity wouldn't be there (EQ, EQ2, Rift, DDO, LotRO and a number if others are your examples this time).
The thing people are missing is that literally every situation where toxicity exists, there is a friction point of people present having differing expectations of what they each should be doing. If you join a group with the expectation of setting back, relaxing, chatting, joking, RP'ing or what ever, but the group has plans to push through content as quickly as they can, there is a friction point that will result in toxicity.
People present do not need a tracker to be able to tell that you are not interested in performing at the speed the group wants you to perform at, so even if they are showing you numbers from a tracker and saying you are not fast enough, that friction isnt a result of the tracker still.
In this case, the friction - and thus toxicity - is a result of differing expectations. The tracker is just an easy way for the group to be able to show you what they think you are doing wrong. That isnt to say there wasnt a negative experience had - it was just an experience that wasnt a direct result of the tracker existing
So, while I dont doubt that toxicity that directly results from a tracker exists, I have yet to see it, or to hear about it. I haven't even heard hypothetical situations where it could happen - just situations where a tracker is present at the same time toxicity is present.
Alright, apparently my examples from before were not clear enough, so I guess it's story time. I will attempt to regale you with my most recent raiding experiences in WoW (with tracker) vs FF14 (without tracker).
I will preface this with:
* This is not an attempt to say all trackers lead to these situations, but show an example of WHY people have opinions against trackers. *
WOW
Back at the start of shadowlands, I was in a casual guild who was progressing through normal/heroic difficulties. We had players of all sorts of skill levels, and those players at different levels of inebriation. We'd typically take a while to fully understand boss mechanics, but something that made that more difficult was WoW's deep rooted culture of DPS meters. We had a handful of players of who would focus so much on being top of the chart, that they would fail to do/avoid basic boss mechanics (those players would admit that). And then after each boss, players would rush to see their "parses" on the log site, turning the whole raid experience into a pissing contest instead of a fun/challenging time with some friends.
IMO: without those DPS tools/ log websites that experience is dramatically different, and in my opinion would feel less "toxic".
There are many solutions to this problem: different tools, different players, etc. But I don't see how you can deny that the tracker/DPS meter itself helped caused this specific negative raiding experience. Would those players have been "toxic" without these tools? Personally, I don't think so, since their "toxic" behavior stemmed from the data that the tools provided.
FF14
Now let's look at some raiding I did in Endwalker, where trackers/DPS meters are more "hush, hush". I was part of yet another casual guild, again players of many skill levels. This time around we were attempting a savage raid, and focus was on learning boss mechanics, and having a good time/laugh. Because of the game's stance on meters being against ToS (even if no punishment is ever taken); the average casual player didn't ever bother getting one set up. Coming from WoW, it was refreshing to not have to listen to the whole parsing contest.
IMO: this was a much more enjoyable raiding experience, that is MUCH easier to come across in FF14, BECAUSE the tracker/meter culture isn't ingrained in the casual player base.
Conclusion:
While non-toxic groups can form with trackers/DPS meters, when those tools become part of the player culture, there will be many more toxic groups that form. A player looking to have a more casual raiding experience, is going to have a much harder time finding that, if almost every player misuses these types of tools. It is probably better for those tools to not be in the hands of the masses.
His goal is just to keep this at the top of the page and respond to everyone and try to convince them to agree with him even if not fully so he can say you support trackers, even if you prefer the game without it and say it.
Though it is kind of funny how it stays at the top and people continue to disagree with him lol.
edit Also he doesn't play the games you mentioned he pretty much plays EQ2
Data may be objective, but interpretation of said data is often biased.
I agree, not only is there interpretation bias it's also the scope of data available. People draw the wrong conclusions from limited data all the time.
This video is pretty good at explaining the various bias:
4,100 posts on the topic have done little other than show a strong and often heated divide.
Hazard a guess, the discussion likely reaffirmed the stance on toxicity and identified a wider range of issues only further grounding their decision.
Wonder how many are on a watch list now for advising they will use a tracker if approved or not.
You seem to be missing my point.
The issues come when players with differing expectations meet.
In your WoW example, some people were just there to have fun and try and out DPS, and some were trying to actually kill the mob. If the entire raid was just try to do one or the other, everyone present would have had more fun. If someones goal is to top the DPS meter, then that is their goal, killing the encounter is not. Trying to top the DPS meter is a form is clowning around - those players would have been clowning around regardless of if a combat tracker was being used or not.
In your FFXIV group, everyone was on the same page.
Your conclusion here shouldn't be anything at all to do with trackers - it should be that groups of players with the same goal will always have more fun than groups of players that have different goals.
Edit; regard less of the differing goals of your WoW guild, if your guild had anyone that knew what they were doing, they could have configured the combat tracker to only display the DPS of people that were meeting the requirements of the encounter - thus in order to top the tracker, you needed to do what was required.
As such, the issue that you claim was caused by a tracker could have indeed been solved by a tracker, if only you knew how to use it.
Even if you wish to blame the tool here rather than the different expectations of your guild, at best you should be blaming the fact that no one seems to have known how to use the tool properly.
Your guild being incompetent isn't anyone else's issue, nor anyone else's fault, imo.
You are absolutely correct.
However, what you are forgetting is that one of the many things that is more biased than interpretations of objective data is interpretations of subjective data.
In the absence of objective data. players will replace it with subjective data - and will interpret that with that even greater bias.
Keep telling me what?
That groups of players with differeing goals will often end badly for at least some of those present?
I already know that.
That groups of players that have similar goals (such as the above FFXIV example, and my entire time in EQ2) will often result in everyone enjoying themselves?
I mean, even if we drop the notion of LFG and LFR (or other automated group forming systems), every single time people talk about a bad experience in an MMO, the one consistent is the differing expectation of players present. Even if trackers aren't even being used - if players have different expectations of what the group or raid is about, then someone will have a bad time.
If who ever is responsible for that group of players assembling is clear up front with the expectation and goal of said group, then everyone is in a position to have a good time.
Perhaps that is why I have never seen toxicity from a tracker - I ensure people all have the same goal. I'll leave you to ponder that one.
@Noaani I feel like we are very close to the same page. I 100 % agree with this. But also, you are missing MY point.
My argument is that the accessibility/acceptability of these tools changes how said players behave. In the WoW example, if addons were generally frowned upon, I am of the opinion that the player expectations would be more aligned.
As you've said many times, the top players are going to have these tools regardless. The problem comes in when the bottom 90% of players misuse these tools, and by doing so create more situations where "players with differing expectations meet."
I'm not against the tools themselves, I just think that making them accepted among the larger player base leads to more people having trouble finding other with similar expectations. I feel like WoW and FF14 are perfect examples of the 2 sides of the coin. FF14 is not without its toxic players, but it is wildly viewed as a better social experience, and I believe there is a valid argument that square's stance on meters has contributed to that 'better social experience'
Even if you do not agree with the point about trackers, I am sure you agree with the point about getting them on the same page.
Essentially, this is a failing at the guild level. Most guilds recruit like minded players, players that want the same thing out of a game. This is kind of the point of guilds.
If your guild is just inviting any player that wants to join in, then yeah, that is the problem. The fact that some people do not know how to use a tool is not a reason to prevent those that do know how to use it from having it. All it is, should you apply logic to this situation, is a reason to provide more education on trackers.
If everyone understands how to use trackers properly, no one can misuse them. In fact, if even just one person in a group, guild or raid knows how to use them properly, they can prevent the entire group, guild or raid from misusing them.
However, if we want to just ignore the fact that education is important in terms of not misusing tools, we can always just restrict their availability. This is where you give players the option of taking them, or taking something else.
People that understand the value of a combat tracker can then have one. People that don't understand can take a boost to how many resources they gather, or a higher percentage change to gain a certificate when they kill a mob or something like that.
This is essentially a more polite way of dealing with what Dygz said above. He knew this is what I would say because him and I had this exact same discussion several years ago.
If the issue is that some people don't know how to use a tracker, give them something they will deem better than a tracker and leave the tracker to those that actually fully understand it's value.
What I don't get is exactly how you think Intrepid will stop that 90% from using a tracker if they want to use one.
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To your WoW vs FFXIV example, you are essentially cherry picking games there. It may be the games you have the most experience in, but in that situation you should still consider the experience of others in other games.
WoW is toxic, we all agree. It has combat trackers able to be used openly.
FFXIV is less toxic than WoW - I will have to take your word for this, as a result of my lack of experience in this game. It has combat trackers but people tend to be somewhat closed about them.
EQ2 is less toxic than WoW - you may need to take my word for this, as a result of your lack of experience in this game. It has combat trackers and people use them openly, just as they do in WoW.
EQ2 is that better social experience over WoW in the same way that FFXIV is.
Archeage is even more toxic than WoW. Almost no one in that game uses a combat tracker.
What this means is that you can't point to trackers as the reason for these two games being the better social experience. Good social experiences and bad social experiences are in games both with and without high tracker use. The fact that you have only played games with high tracker/high toxicity and low tracker/low toxicity does not mean that high tracker/low toxicity and low tracker/high toxicity games don't exist.
All it means is that you haven't played those games.
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My issue here really is that what you are arguing for is literally the thing you don't want.
So, we agree that trackers will be a factor in Ashes - those that want them will have them. From there, if limiting trackers to those that know what you are doing is what you want to do (I prefer education), then literally your only option is for Intrepid to implement them and find a way to restrict them. If they are third party applications, then literally everyone is able to get hold of them.
It's not like the FFXIV situation can ever happen again, because people know developers can't stop them. There will never again be an initial period in a game where people aren't sure if they can use a tracker or not. Everyone will start every MMO from now on knowing that trackers are a thing they have the option to use - and those distributing them won't limit it to people that know what they are doing.
In fact, since much of the discussion in groups and raids in Ashes will be via voice chat rather than text, and since voice chat isn't going to be recorded and thus people can't be banned for talking about trackers, Intrepid can't even have the policy of not talking about trackers in the game like FFXIV has.
As a TL;DR here, in arguing against built in trackers that allow Intrepid to put a limit on who has access, what you are really doing is just handing access over to literally anyone that wants it.
If I am not mistaken, that is exactly what you do not want, yet is the only conclusion to the argument you are making.
This is what I do not understand.
You are building your argument and just hoping the end result that you want will fit. You should perhaps start with the end result you want, and work back.
If I am not mistaken, you want trackers not in the game at all - you know that won't happen.
From there, my understanding is that the next best thing is trackers only in the hands of those that know how to use them - how do we achieve this?
So, what you sre saying is that o Ashes, anyone that wants a tracker should be able to get a tracker.
Because if Intrepid dont make a tracker for the game them self, that is the outcome.
As to the size of EQ2's community - 2 points.
First, most people understand that I am talking about EQ2 in its prime - when it was undisputedly in the top 5 MMO's world wide.
Second, last I heard, EQ2 had less than 1% of its players on Steam. If that figure is holding true, that puts the fame at 30k concurrent players after 18 years.
Since Ashes wont be live 18 years after launch (we are talking 2042 or so here), that is a samn good effort on EQ2's part.
First off, I think you highly overestimate the average player's desire to dig deep into raw data. If the data exists, the vast majority just want to see their number larger than the other's. Education may help in this regard, but depends on how that education is implemented (see last paragraph for more context)
Now, what is the end result I actually want? I want a game where the average player isn't brainwashed into thinking that the only way to prove their value is by having a larger number on a meter. I want it to be easy to find like minded people who want to work together to overcome challenges, not overcome their teammate on a meter.
Do I think a custom tracker with specific features built by intrepid could help solve this problem? sure, but I also think that taking a stance (and enforcement of said stance) is probably more effective, not to mention they can spend time on more important features.
The reason I'm not against "handing access over to literally anyone that wants it" in the context of 3rd party tools, is because I'm under the assumption the devs' stance/enforcement on the subject will deter the average player from even bothering. This has been my experience in FF14, you can find players who use tools if you want to take the game seriously, but you are also much more likely to find players who don't care, and just want to clear some content and work together.
I should clarify what I mean by "enforcement", I think what FF14 has done, is a pretty good compromise to the whole subject matter. it is a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of vibe. Like minded players can talk all they want about the tracker data...but when they force that data on to others who didn't sign up for that type of game play...that's when the person using the tracker is punished. This helps mitigate the toxic behavior that shows up when players end up playing together that don't share the same expectations. It creates an understanding in the community that it is not ok to treat others poorly based on their data/gameplay.
I'd be fine with trackers (1st or 3rd party) as long as it comes with the enforcement aspect of punishing players who use them in a toxic manner. And maybe that enforcement is part of the education you are talking about.
I mean, toxic behavior should either be against the rules and thus banned, or not against the rules and thus not banned. The use of a combat tracker in any toxic behavior shouldn't be a factor.
However, I want to tell you about a phone call I had a few minutes ago.
I rung a friend of mine that has played FFXIV for a few years to ask him what he thought about their tracker stance and enforcement. What he told me is that it is basically all just a joke.
Most people in the game use trackers - his estimate is 75%+. However, when people find themselves in a group with someone that they cant identify as using a tracker, everyone basically just sighs.
What this means, he told me, is that players in that group are now in a position where they aren't going to enjoy the group, dont expect much success, and cant boot that player out for fear of them complaining and getting them banned.
Essentially, all that has happened there is the negative experience has shifted, but those that have the negative experience are scared of losing their account if they speak up about it.
This is not a better situation. This is basically making it so everyone not using a tracker in FFXIV is considered the toxic player by the majority - they just aren't aware of it.
From what he has said, as of the last few weeks (something to do with a farming update or something, I have no idea), people are going around with the express intent of ruining other people's time by being in their group and not letting them talk about basically anything objective in regards to the game.
If you want to ban toxic behavior due to trackers in an MMO, I would insist that those people doing the above be on that ban list.
Toxicity around trackers can just as easily come from those not using them as it can from those using them.
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To me, the single best thing Intrepid could do to reduce the amount of toxicity players come across is to have an objective data based guild recruitment page.
Some games (Archeage comes to mind) have a page where you can advertise your guilds recruiting in game, but the problem is that most of them allow the guilds to say what kind of guild they are. Obviously, this doesnt work well.
If instead of that the guild recruitment page showed what content the guild had cleared recently, how many of their groups were guild only (or alliance only), how many caravans they has successfully delivered, defended and attacked, how many players have gained corruption, how many players have been bounty hunters, how many people have participated in sieges, and also what guild perks the guild has
With all of this being listed, the guild recruitment page is telling potential recruits what the guild ACTUALLY is, and so players are in a better position to find a guild that suits them - and thus less likely to be in situations where they are lumped in with people that have different goals.
In an utopic world with only nice people that would be the same thing
Because seeing bad and good DPS allow you to find what is good to do. And for people ? if we all were nice, we would use this information to help the "bad" (with again help of the tracker that allows to see what is the problem... like to many of a skill, not enough of another etc)[
Not even able to answer my last question or any other...
But i love there... When i spent hours and hours in any MMORPG i played to HELP people to improve their DPS, using test in fight, dummy, and also tracker to find anything false, but also... to prove them why i was right and they were wrong (because yes... i saw people denying their low DPS until ... they downloaded a tracker, and saw the reality... )
And all in explanation to allow them to understand their class and continue to progress by themselves... (Because yes i know, i could simply send them read a guide... easier maybe, but people read, obey and... are just able to do what guides said)
I don't care tracking everyone, except to have comparison (on wow for example, while playing mainly PU, if i see a dude with same class and specialisation than me, i watch their stuff, and watch their DPS to compare myself... allowing to know if i am good enough or not. If i have better stuff but we are close in damages : i am bad. if i have a lesser stuff but get over his DPS, i can think being in good position. this is the main use from the sites warcraftlogs/fflogs in fact... see if you are good or bad, and so, see if you need to progress or not)
I track people to compare myself or... to help them.
So your paranoid "you want the tracker to be a bad guy" ... you don't imagine how far from any reality you are. and if you are sure of that... i invite you to prove what you are saying... The duty of the accusator to give the proofs no ?
You just want people to do the tracker work (reading datas) with their bare hands.
-Do lot of test, minutes and minutes of battle, or dummy bashings can even be hours when you want to go deep.
This is true with a tracker or without. you will need LOTS of combat informations.
-Then collect data, the best way in a spread sheet. This will allow you to read it, and understand what happened during those test, to really see what was best, or even show you what to test next (taking best part of different setup?)
This second part will take HOURS of filling a spreadsheet while it is instant for a tracker.
This time is cut from playing the game, and socialize with guild, or other people trying to optimise themselves (sharing your test, results, listening to them sharing their own experience etc)
So your way is "don't play the game, fill spreadsheet, it will be more rewarding". Sorry i want to play a game...
Recently a friend, old player of FFXI, complained to me that... people were focus a lot in their parser results and when they wiped, they watched more the potential lack of DPS... even when the enrage was not the question.
(A really good friend i see often IRL, and the kind to deny me his bad DPS until i prove my word with ACT.)
Also, would be interesting to see if your character was really not recorded and uploaded on the site
The personnal experience remain personnal, small scale. FFlogs is filled of lot casuals... The parser is really common in FFXIV,
Even if people download ACT 10 time in average, there are still over a million people to download it...
With a limit to guild perks (so not for all guild), i think the spread of tracker will be similar to what it is in FFXIV currently.
A casual group like yours in FFXIV won't care to take it, they won't have lot to invest in guild perks, and will surely prefer thing more important in their mind.
Also people like Mag7spy if GM or even Officer will always fight all he can to avoid it to be taken as guild perk (and he would be absolutely right...).
On the other side, the fact there will be a good one, will be enough to make happy people who wants to use one... If people have what they want, they will spend less time to create it themselves. (less time doing it = more time playing, petting the cat or sharing laugh)
What if guilds like yours in wow take the perk ?
To be honest, getting from top to casual level in wow, i can say one thing : your guilds was doomed to never do real good progress. The differences of objectivs, even without tracker, would lead the guild to have 2 camp : we don't progress fast enough vs we are fine, all we care is getting our rythm.
The simple fact those who want to push will see some guild with "similar level" getting faster than them will be enough to try to push more, and here become the problem you said for your wow example. Not even a need of parser. (this is what i saw when i stopped high end/hardcore level guilds to go in casual, more relax guilds).
Here i defend combat tracker : didnt use one for myself in FFXIV but to help my FC members to improve.
My objectivs in Ashes of Creation will probably lead me to don't care at all about tracker. So will probably join a guild which will not take it... And will probably, if it is a debate in the guild, be in favour to NOT take it.
But because i know that ALL bad behaviour that can have tracker as origin will happen even without it, because before any origin, there is the first one : a group of people with too different mindset.
And i also know all good thing can do a tracker if well used.
And for toxicity ? Aside the problem of different mindset, which creates 2 sub-group who are toxic to each other (yes lets face it, there is not "the good guys" and "the bad guys"... ) if people are really toxic just kick them, or even report them if it seems close to a kind of harassment or another behaviour against the TOS. They deserve it. And as many people said in this topic (nearly all) with or without parser, those people will be toxic. they will find a way.
I have new insight as to why you are this way from one of your matches. I'll share it mostly to help clarify to people outside my group because it is important enough, I feel, since you keep talking even though you are being largely ignored. I will attempt to not draw the conclusion, hopefully others can draw it without me spelling it out. What I am about to describe is not a hypothetical, it is something I have observed directly from Mag's own content.
Mag is the sort of player who will use a tactic in a Mirror Match (against the same character you use, for those who are unfamiliar with the term) and make a self-appreciative vocalization.
Mag is also the sort of player who will, in the exact same situation, have the opponent use the same tactic successfully against, and make a vocalization that implies 'thinking the opponent is lame or stupid or a weak player for doing it'.
"Accuse the ______ ___"
It allows me to have a very different perspective on your posts. I hope it helps some others.
Imagine jumping into the convo out of dislike and trying to be rude without being as clear about it. Attempting to put words or actions in someone mouth because you want to believe your fantasy land. You won't understand people because you lack of the capability to be more understanding needing to see things as 1 or 0's. You aren't going to understand my view points or reasoning no matter how much you try.
So please stop trying to make things up on why you think what I do you are very very wrong.
I don't think that should be part of the game and I don't think it's an issue if it makes it harder for you to figure out.
You are now talking about the devs designing the game with trackers in mind and them being an expected part of the game instead of an optional way to improve your performance. That further pushes me against it.
Everything you need to figure out an encounter should in in the game and that is how you should be expected to figure it out.
Actually, this is almost exactly the opposite of what I am saying.
When designing content, developers have a difficulty in mind. This is often the first thing they know about the content they are developing - before they know the location, the mob type, the lore - anything like that.
When developing content to a specific difficulty, you look back at previous content that was supposed to be that same difficulty. If players breezed through content that was supposed to be really hard, then the next batch of content aimed at that same difficulty target will be designed to be much harder - in hopes of hitting the target.
You aren't looking at whether players are using trackers or not, you are simply looking at how easily players got through that content in relation to how much of a challenge it was supposed to be. The fact that players are using trackers that makes this content easier is only showing up as the content being easier.
So, if players use trackers on all content, then all content will have it's difficulty based on trackers on all content. Again though, we are still not even looking at tracker use by players.
The above is literally every MMO ever, and will be Ashes since we all know trackers will be a thing.
Now, if Intrepid implement trackers and leave it as a guild only perk that top end guilds are likely to pick but other guilds are not likely to pick (because they want their bonus resources or certificates or what ever), then on most content in the game, trackers aren't being used, and so future content will be based on how quickly players not using trackers get through it.
I'm not sure I have explained the above well enough, so I'll do a TL:DR;
In order for content to not be designed based on players using trackers, players need to actually not be using trackers. The only way to do this, is for Intrepid to control trackers.
If players are using third party trackers, then future content will be designed based on the increased ability of players due to trackers.