Sapiverenus is the kind of player your game is targeting without combat trackers and the increase in complexity of combat and content that go hand in hand with trackers.
What was it you were saying about toxicity again?
The above poster is a perfect example of someone ignoring data (or *facts*, in this case), and just being toxic with what ever they want, making up their own facts to suit what ever they want at that point in time.
Without objective data in an MMO, this is what happens. You dont lower toxicity, you just encourage toxicity without foundation.
The question then becomes, is "toxicity" based on an objective truth (ie, something that can be overcome) better or worse than "toxicity" based on the mood of some dipshit player/poster (ie, something that can not be overcome).
request = demand, usually used by people who are in a position of power
Mag7spy used the word "communicate"
You both describe the same thing but putting the weight on different aspect, he on the social interaction, you on obtaining the information you need.
And we know that if people want way to discriminate, they will find, and work to have it.
Back in WOTLK, people didnt kick other due to DPS meter, no... was too late, better to discriminate before, on stuff ! And because most were too dumb to inspect stuff (and watch clearly if the choices of stuff was good, not just ilvl) they used the "gearscore" addon... and forced people to have it. My guild ended to have a second alt run... in reality it was friend of us, we invited to the guild, and spread alt between 2 raid to allow our friend to enjoy PvE at lesser level (we went on the "race of first" on our server)... Simply because most midtier guild forced the use of gearscore (yes, casuals, not top end... )
And now ? try to find party for M+ without a decent raider.io . . . you could do M+15 each week with friends, if you uploaded nothing, forget about it. On FFXIV, i know some team check the fflogs for farm parties. and green parse got more chance to get invited that those with no parse... (also, it seems the checking reduced well for most parties... being now mostly on friendlist)
With discord now... would not be surprised to have people invited to share logs thru discord to get a spot... ... the "request" is not so hard to get... and it can even become a "give it, or cya" ...
And i personally totally, absolutely hate such behaviour... but they are far more hard to fight against than some dumb nobrain kicking for "low DPS" on content/wipe where DPS is not the problem...
Maybe i am dumb, or naive... But my years on MMORPG learnt me that it is easier to prevent the bad behaviour (including toxicity) with controlled tools than with ostrich politic.
It would be far easier to get the most objectiv way to judge people efficiency (tracker shows the result of their build + skill + stuff) and just some few rule (no harass, no flame, etc) and get people helping each other (again, tracker is good tool for it)
@Sapiverenus : you should try to edit your post of 3 line to add the 4 new line and then the 1 new line you have in mind, and not do 4 answer per post you read... ... If you want people to pay attention to you... it would help a lot.
@Sapiverenus
So you are actually admitting to misrepresenting me? Thats at least somewhat respectable if thats the case, I am all for some trolling as long as you admit it, still annoying af that you didn't actually address my points on this subject before doing that.
I'll indulge
RECAP of the poor sap
1. Unless...(badum) something ... (badum) has.... (badum) .... rythm .... (badum) it isnt .... (ba dum)... worth ... (badum).... having (badum tss)
2. Feedback? Heh, the less info there is the less the more you can blame the game instead of yourself, while still maintaining complete self-awareness- perfect for the objective, but objectively bad gamer #galaxy brain
3. No argument? NO PROBLEM
4. RNG in builds AND in my reasoning, consistency is key
5. Metas dont exist
6. Has bot fettish, gets turned on by programmed responses
Thank you for playing.
Seriously done now I need to go to sleep for work.
@Sapiverenus
So you are actually admitting to misrepresenting me? Thats at least somewhat respectable if thats the case, I am all for some trolling as long as you admit it, still annoying af that you didn't actually address my points on this subject before doing that.
I'll indulge
RECAP of the poor sap
1. Unless...(badum) something ... (badum) has.... (badum) .... rythm .... (badum) it isnt .... (ba dum)... worth ... (badum).... having (badum tss)
2. Feedback? Heh, the less info there is the less the more you can blame the game instead of yourself, while still maintaining complete self-awareness- perfect for the objective, but objectively bad gamer #galaxy brain
3. No argument? NO PROBLEM
4. RNG in builds AND in my reasoning, consistency is key
5. Metas dont exist
6. Has bot fettish, gets turned on by programmed responses
Thank you for playing.
Seriously done now I need to go to sleep for work.
Long boring intro to earn nerd points. Bad.
#1 is pretty bad. Play a game that isn't turn-based lmao
#2 This is basically exposition. You can't condense shit. Probably why you're bad at real-time games.
->You lose coherence as well.
#3 Eh. Bonus for less words.
#4 Real Data Analysis would crush you. Edit: Real life is Crushing you lmao.
#5 No hit
#6 You're drowning
You get a [D-]. B- to Pass. College standards. Still lower than Real standards lmao; good luck.
@Aerlana
What is easier to enforce is to design the game to not give client-side all the info, and have variability and abilities on mobs that are generally visible either subtly or obviously, and requiring a certain class to get a better idea about something [such as magical stone golem health %; or Rangers for something to do with animals] or simply require some basic deductive logic & communication.
Why do yall hate real life lol? Arcade MMOs are not better.
Designing a game that can be completed by anti-social nerdrage tracker metagaming fuckwads: attracts such types.
Real life... where we can measure and calculate all, being totally defined by some physical law that the human, always try to understand better and better, centuries after centuries.
The world where we know how many centimeter a hair grow each year. the impact of your body of a certain amount of sugar. and even how many cells, invisible to our eyes, your body contain.
The real life, where we are able to know the distance to the moon with a really high accuracy,
Where human is using lot of measurement tool because the human can't be satisfy by approximate information...
You want the game where players rely on approximate values, and as argument want us to do as "in real world" ? But my real world, is about measures, and calculations based on them.
Even your idea of RNG values can be abused and will just push people to know the probability behind this RNG... to optimise, and abuse it... nothing new there, no revolutionnal idea that was never done before... it was done, and we know the result
But again, your message, aside from it, shows all your hate about video games and that you favor doing real lfie activities...
What are you doing on a video game forum so ? you never answered. ... maybe just because you are full of rage and try to just show it to us... But i don't have any empathy for such raging behaviour as yours, sorry
What is easier to enforce is to design the game to not give client-side all the info,.
Was way to go for FFXI... and... people worked to find...
Programmation is always about numbers... numbers and numbers, and people can find it. will find it. you can't hide it forever, people will manage to find your values...
If people manage to find how to go for a mass to energy with each step between those two things... be sure that some hidden value in a software can be found...
You spoke about us disliking good games, but you are not even able to say an example of good video game for you...
Real life... oh yeah, where all can be defined by numbers...
The problem is not us hating real life, i have lot of activities real life, and with friend, even if spread everywhere in the country, we try to get hollidays at same time to get to see each other, and do activities ... out of our computers...
Real life is not getting factual information thru bare eyes, but with various measurement tool. . .
All the life around you is about factual numbers and strict laws that allows to do calculations, to have answers
Meter, thermometer, chronometer, watch... those are basic tools everyone are using at a daily basis.
Real life is nothing but some physical law... totally strict, and factual.
Also, while you hate video games... what are you doing here ?
What are you doing in real life?
What is even your point though. You think an artificial machine experience is more free and less controlled by 'fixed laws' or 'numbers' than the rest of life?
Refer back to what I said to you about Engagement.
You think everyone is nerdgachi with Google Glasses calculating shit for them all the time and they like it?
What is your argument even.
@Aerlana
Any RNG can be done better or worse. As I said before.
It can be more or less easy to dissect. As I said before.
RNG can be manipulated any day any hour by devs. As you already know.
Content can be designed around trackers (cheats) like it can be designed around hacks (such as aimbot), or it can be designed for everyone else.
You have no argument and refer to phantoms that have no bearing here.
you ask a lot, never answer. you want answer from me :
What are you doing on a forum speaking a hobby you absolutely hate with people you totally hate on it.
Give us examples of good video game in your opinion...
With both those thing, we could maybe, manage to have way to communicate with your mind full of hatred, blind to anything not fitting your own spirit... blind to the majority of the world you live in.
For the last few years, I've been using spreadsheets to track my vegetable garden. Everything from how different seeds perform, different locations in my garden, different compost (and indeed a spreadsheet for my own compost), planting dates, crop yield, basically anything I can measure. I have automated as much of this as I am able to (soil moisture being a big one here).
The results of this are that I am now able to grow far more food on my section than I should be able to grow.
Objective data is used in the real world all the time. I mean, go to any softball game - you'll see some people just watching the game and enjoying it, some people drinking a few beers and enjoying the game, and some people recording g every single pitch and enjoying the game that way. All of them are enjoying the game, but it is quite likely that none of them would enjoy the game if they were participating in said game via a different method above.
The argument Aerlana and myself have here is that people should be able to enjoy the game how ever they wish (and indeed that people will enjoy the game however they wish, regardless).
Your argument is that people should only enjoy the game the way you want them to enjoy the game.
@Aerlana
Stop projecting.
I've spoken about stuff I like in several games, mechanics I like, and the kind of game I'd like to play.
As I said before I'm not much of a fan of any. Is that your 'Shutdown'? Did you shut me down? Try harder.
@Aerlana
I pretty often respond to people's loaded questions, motivations and point of view. All the time. I just don't waste my time on exposition to signal how willing I am to conform. lmao
I've spoken about stuff I like in several games, mechanics I like, and the kind of game I'd like to play.
My question is not "what good idea that existed you like" but "what video game you find good"
Even on video game i dislike, i hated, there are ideas i find were really good and could be used again in other game... And a game you found excellent, top quality can have many flaw...
My game of heart, i would defend to death is Drakengard 3... and ... people who played it, even in its improved state on RPCS3... the flaws are obvious.
If you never liked any video game, just liked ideas/mechanics in them, if you never found one good, how could you even define what is a good video game ?
If it never existed in your opinion... how can you define "bad/good" which are subjectiv opinion, but also relativ... if all games are bad, no game is bad. if all game are good, no game is good
Understand : i could ignore you, and probably i should. but when i roam on forum, i consider that if anyone spend so much time posting, i could at least try to understand his opinion... and in 20 years on internet various forum speaking of various passions/hobby, you are one of the hardest opinion to understand...
You could love a game i find shit, it doesnt matter, this is your taste against mine, and i am far over thinking my taste is better than other...
You insult people on this forum... at least offers them clear answers...
"If you never liked any video game, just liked ideas/mechanics in them, if you never found one good, how could you even define what is a good video game ?"
How would you create one? Not by copying an entire game.
Most things in life simply require growth and struggle to improve, improve in, or grasp.
"If you never liked any video game, just liked ideas/mechanics in them, if you never found one good, how could you even define what is a good video game ?"
How would you create one? Not by copying an entire game.
Most things in life simply require growth and struggle to improve, improve in, or grasp.
Reading all of this, I couldn't make out the name of the game you've played that you like. Could you restate that for me pleas?
In L2 this "window" could be seen as the general buff amount and your very limited self-buffs that gave you a big boost (though this was mainly applicable to only one class). But considering that most bosses had a much longer ttk than just a few minutes, these "windows" weren't as important as they seem to be in WoW. And the general buff was always there (unless you royally fucked up your mana usage) so you'd be at a constant high boost of power.
This kind of method was used from time to time by other people, but usually you'd just farm normally cause your dps was enough to be in the best loot bracket.
And as an addition to that question, would you want to have the same kind of combat mechanic in Ashes, or is it not even a "want" but a "need" because this mechanic promotes the use of your analysis abilities?
@NiKr
They want to remove the need for analysis abilities.
If the feedback from the game is complex and compiled it's like trying to separate the individual signals from the complex one; like a fourier transform.
This sort of data analysis is performed all the time by people. Just trying to understand what someone is saying that has a different way of speaking will be a form of analysis.
Noaani and Azherae want everyone to speak the same way and simplify everything so they have a chance to compete. They want to make the game easier.
Comments
Sapiverenus is the kind of player your game is targeting without combat trackers and the increase in complexity of combat and content that go hand in hand with trackers.
What was it you were saying about toxicity again?
The above poster is a perfect example of someone ignoring data (or *facts*, in this case), and just being toxic with what ever they want, making up their own facts to suit what ever they want at that point in time.
Without objective data in an MMO, this is what happens. You dont lower toxicity, you just encourage toxicity without foundation.
The question then becomes, is "toxicity" based on an objective truth (ie, something that can be overcome) better or worse than "toxicity" based on the mood of some dipshit player/poster (ie, something that can not be overcome).
And we know that if people want way to discriminate, they will find, and work to have it.
Back in WOTLK, people didnt kick other due to DPS meter, no... was too late, better to discriminate before, on stuff ! And because most were too dumb to inspect stuff (and watch clearly if the choices of stuff was good, not just ilvl) they used the "gearscore" addon... and forced people to have it. My guild ended to have a second alt run... in reality it was friend of us, we invited to the guild, and spread alt between 2 raid to allow our friend to enjoy PvE at lesser level (we went on the "race of first" on our server)... Simply because most midtier guild forced the use of gearscore (yes, casuals, not top end... )
And now ? try to find party for M+ without a decent raider.io . . . you could do M+15 each week with friends, if you uploaded nothing, forget about it. On FFXIV, i know some team check the fflogs for farm parties. and green parse got more chance to get invited that those with no parse... (also, it seems the checking reduced well for most parties... being now mostly on friendlist)
With discord now... would not be surprised to have people invited to share logs thru discord to get a spot... ... the "request" is not so hard to get... and it can even become a "give it, or cya" ...
And i personally totally, absolutely hate such behaviour... but they are far more hard to fight against than some dumb nobrain kicking for "low DPS" on content/wipe where DPS is not the problem...
Maybe i am dumb, or naive... But my years on MMORPG learnt me that it is easier to prevent the bad behaviour (including toxicity) with controlled tools than with ostrich politic.
It would be far easier to get the most objectiv way to judge people efficiency (tracker shows the result of their build + skill + stuff) and just some few rule (no harass, no flame, etc) and get people helping each other (again, tracker is good tool for it)
@Sapiverenus : you should try to edit your post of 3 line to add the 4 new line and then the 1 new line you have in mind, and not do 4 answer per post you read... ... If you want people to pay attention to you... it would help a lot.
So you are actually admitting to misrepresenting me? Thats at least somewhat respectable if thats the case, I am all for some trolling as long as you admit it, still annoying af that you didn't actually address my points on this subject before doing that.
I'll indulge
RECAP of the poor sap
1. Unless...(badum) something ... (badum) has.... (badum) .... rythm .... (badum) it isnt .... (ba dum)... worth ... (badum).... having (badum tss)
2. Feedback? Heh, the less info there is the less the more you can blame the game instead of yourself, while still maintaining complete self-awareness- perfect for the objective, but objectively bad gamer #galaxy brain
3. No argument? NO PROBLEM
4. RNG in builds AND in my reasoning, consistency is key
5. Metas dont exist
6. Has bot fettish, gets turned on by programmed responses
Thank you for playing.
Seriously done now I need to go to sleep for work.
It doesn't help.
It does signal my willingness to conform though. lmao
Long boring intro to earn nerd points. Bad.
#1 is pretty bad. Play a game that isn't turn-based lmao
#2 This is basically exposition. You can't condense shit. Probably why you're bad at real-time games.
->You lose coherence as well.
#3 Eh. Bonus for less words.
#4 Real Data Analysis would crush you. Edit: Real life is Crushing you lmao.
#5 No hit
#6 You're drowning
You get a [D-]. B- to Pass. College standards. Still lower than Real standards lmao; good luck.
.
What is easier to enforce is to design the game to not give client-side all the info, and have variability and abilities on mobs that are generally visible either subtly or obviously, and requiring a certain class to get a better idea about something [such as magical stone golem health %; or Rangers for something to do with animals] or simply require some basic deductive logic & communication.
Why do yall hate real life lol? Arcade MMOs are not better.
Designing a game that can be completed by anti-social nerdrage tracker metagaming fuckwads: attracts such types.
HOSTILE ARCHITECTURE is the answer folks.
Real life... where we can measure and calculate all, being totally defined by some physical law that the human, always try to understand better and better, centuries after centuries.
The world where we know how many centimeter a hair grow each year. the impact of your body of a certain amount of sugar. and even how many cells, invisible to our eyes, your body contain.
The real life, where we are able to know the distance to the moon with a really high accuracy,
Where human is using lot of measurement tool because the human can't be satisfy by approximate information...
You want the game where players rely on approximate values, and as argument want us to do as "in real world" ? But my real world, is about measures, and calculations based on them.
Even your idea of RNG values can be abused and will just push people to know the probability behind this RNG... to optimise, and abuse it... nothing new there, no revolutionnal idea that was never done before... it was done, and we know the result
But again, your message, aside from it, shows all your hate about video games and that you favor doing real lfie activities...
What are you doing on a video game forum so ? you never answered. ... maybe just because you are full of rage and try to just show it to us... But i don't have any empathy for such raging behaviour as yours, sorry
Was way to go for FFXI... and... people worked to find...
Programmation is always about numbers... numbers and numbers, and people can find it. will find it. you can't hide it forever, people will manage to find your values...
If people manage to find how to go for a mass to energy with each step between those two things... be sure that some hidden value in a software can be found...
You spoke about us disliking good games, but you are not even able to say an example of good video game for you...
What are you doing in real life?
What is even your point though. You think an artificial machine experience is more free and less controlled by 'fixed laws' or 'numbers' than the rest of life?
Refer back to what I said to you about Engagement.
You think everyone is nerdgachi with Google Glasses calculating shit for them all the time and they like it?
What is your argument even.
Any RNG can be done better or worse. As I said before.
It can be more or less easy to dissect. As I said before.
RNG can be manipulated any day any hour by devs. As you already know.
Content can be designed around trackers (cheats) like it can be designed around hacks (such as aimbot), or it can be designed for everyone else.
You have no argument and refer to phantoms that have no bearing here.
You have no point but myopic despair or something.
Maybe you can't say it outright due to fear or something lol.
What are you doing on a forum speaking a hobby you absolutely hate with people you totally hate on it.
Give us examples of good video game in your opinion...
With both those thing, we could maybe, manage to have way to communicate with your mind full of hatred, blind to anything not fitting your own spirit... blind to the majority of the world you live in.
For the last few years, I've been using spreadsheets to track my vegetable garden. Everything from how different seeds perform, different locations in my garden, different compost (and indeed a spreadsheet for my own compost), planting dates, crop yield, basically anything I can measure. I have automated as much of this as I am able to (soil moisture being a big one here).
The results of this are that I am now able to grow far more food on my section than I should be able to grow.
Objective data is used in the real world all the time. I mean, go to any softball game - you'll see some people just watching the game and enjoying it, some people drinking a few beers and enjoying the game, and some people recording g every single pitch and enjoying the game that way. All of them are enjoying the game, but it is quite likely that none of them would enjoy the game if they were participating in said game via a different method above.
The argument Aerlana and myself have here is that people should be able to enjoy the game how ever they wish (and indeed that people will enjoy the game however they wish, regardless).
Your argument is that people should only enjoy the game the way you want them to enjoy the game.
Stop projecting.
I've spoken about stuff I like in several games, mechanics I like, and the kind of game I'd like to play.
As I said before I'm not much of a fan of any. Is that your 'Shutdown'? Did you shut me down? Try harder.
Well, true.
So what?
If what others are doing doesnt affect you at all, why would you care?
I pretty often respond to people's loaded questions, motivations and point of view. All the time. I just don't waste my time on exposition to signal how willing I am to conform. lmao
get real
Illuminated by the data streams. . . Enlightened by your own Intelligence. . .
Being OCD does indeed make someone more inclined to want objective data.
It isnt an outright connection (you can want such data and not be OCD and be OCD and not care about such data), but there is a small correlation.
But the question then becomes - so what?
My question is not "what good idea that existed you like" but "what video game you find good"
Even on video game i dislike, i hated, there are ideas i find were really good and could be used again in other game... And a game you found excellent, top quality can have many flaw...
My game of heart, i would defend to death is Drakengard 3... and ... people who played it, even in its improved state on RPCS3... the flaws are obvious.
If you never liked any video game, just liked ideas/mechanics in them, if you never found one good, how could you even define what is a good video game ?
If it never existed in your opinion... how can you define "bad/good" which are subjectiv opinion, but also relativ... if all games are bad, no game is bad. if all game are good, no game is good
Understand : i could ignore you, and probably i should. but when i roam on forum, i consider that if anyone spend so much time posting, i could at least try to understand his opinion... and in 20 years on internet various forum speaking of various passions/hobby, you are one of the hardest opinion to understand...
You could love a game i find shit, it doesnt matter, this is your taste against mine, and i am far over thinking my taste is better than other...
You insult people on this forum... at least offers them clear answers...
How would you create one? Not by copying an entire game.
Most things in life simply require growth and struggle to improve, improve in, or grasp.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/367704/#Comment_367704
Refer to what I said to you about Engagement and this Video
Reading all of this, I couldn't make out the name of the game you've played that you like. Could you restate that for me pleas?
In L2 this "window" could be seen as the general buff amount and your very limited self-buffs that gave you a big boost (though this was mainly applicable to only one class). But considering that most bosses had a much longer ttk than just a few minutes, these "windows" weren't as important as they seem to be in WoW. And the general buff was always there (unless you royally fucked up your mana usage) so you'd be at a constant high boost of power.
Here's the most famous video of a "window" being utilized to its max
This kind of method was used from time to time by other people, but usually you'd just farm normally cause your dps was enough to be in the best loot bracket.
They want to remove the need for analysis abilities.
If the feedback from the game is complex and compiled it's like trying to separate the individual signals from the complex one; like a fourier transform.
This sort of data analysis is performed all the time by people. Just trying to understand what someone is saying that has a different way of speaking will be a form of analysis.
Noaani and Azherae want everyone to speak the same way and simplify everything so they have a chance to compete. They want to make the game easier.