DPS meters are dumb, nothing new to see here. Same arguments from page 10, 30, 50-150 all being talked about again here and repeated word to word.
Indeed it is.
I mean, it isn't as if there is anything to add to "I'll have a tracker regardless of what Intrepid has to say about it", so there isn't really any more discussion to be had other than pointing this fact out to new people coming in to the thread.
DPS meters are dumb, nothing new to see here. Same arguments from page 10, 30, 50-150 all being talked about again here and repeated word to word.
Indeed it is.
I mean, it isn't as if there is anything to add to "I'll have a tracker regardless of what Intrepid has to say about it", so there isn't really any more discussion to be had other than pointing this fact out to new people coming in to the thread.
you probs shouldnt say that. they gonna be onto u now xD
DPS meters are dumb, nothing new to see here. Same arguments from page 10, 30, 50-150 all being talked about again here and repeated word to word.
Indeed it is.
I mean, it isn't as if there is anything to add to "I'll have a tracker regardless of what Intrepid has to say about it", so there isn't really any more discussion to be had other than pointing this fact out to new people coming in to the thread.
you probs shouldnt say that. they gonna be onto u now xD
we better have pointless reiterated back and forth conversations for 10 pages to bury it then so no one ever knows....
DPS meters are dumb, nothing new to see here. Same arguments from page 10, 30, 50-150 all being talked about again here and repeated word to word.
Indeed it is.
I mean, it isn't as if there is anything to add to "I'll have a tracker regardless of what Intrepid has to say about it", so there isn't really any more discussion to be had other than pointing this fact out to new people coming in to the thread.
you probs shouldnt say that. they gonna be onto u now xD
we better have pointless reiterated back and forth conversations for 10 pages to bury it then so no one ever knows....
vaknar reads everything. i feel sorry for him lol. intrepid also probably has some faceless employees reading this forum and all social media. i also feel bad for them
DPS meters are dumb, nothing new to see here. Same arguments from page 10, 30, 50-150 all being talked about again here and repeated word to word.
Indeed it is.
I mean, it isn't as if there is anything to add to "I'll have a tracker regardless of what Intrepid has to say about it", so there isn't really any more discussion to be had other than pointing this fact out to new people coming in to the thread.
you probs shouldnt say that. they gonna be onto u now xD
we better have pointless reiterated back and forth conversations for 10 pages to bury it then so no one ever knows....
vaknar reads everything. i feel sorry for him lol. intrepid also probably has some faceless employees reading this forum and all social media. i also feel bad for them
Awareness and perceptive characteristics in relation to validity of opinion priority.
Meta with information or without information is meta. It will happen. I would rather have meta based on feelings than facts because at the end of the day I can still say "I like this build more", while with facts you end up saying "I like this build more despite being inferior".
I want to play my character like I feel to. Unless I am in the 1% my build shouldn't matter.
So why do we need to create a combat tracker for that 1%?
The most common position is "there will be one anyways" which is the shittiest argument I've ever heard. So why forbid addons if there will be anwaysy? Next time we're dealing with addons calling every single mechanic like in Wow. How is that a fun game?
Meta with information or without information is meta. It will happen. I would rather have meta based on feelings than facts because at the end of the day I can still say "I like this build more", while with facts you end up saying "I like this build more despite being inferior".
I want to play my character like I feel to. Unless I am in the 1% my build shouldn't matter.
So why do we need to create a combat tracker for that 1%?
The most common position is "there will be one anyways" which is the shittiest argument I've ever heard. So why forbid addons if there will be anwaysy? Next time we're dealing with addons calling every single mechanic like in Wow. How is that a fun game?
it is a shitty truth unfortunately. Many developers and studio throw a good pitch of their product and idea. I dont like it anymore than you do lol.
it is a shitty truth unfortunately. Many developers and studio throw a good pitch of their product and idea. I dont like it anymore than you do lol.
Expectations vs Reality.
Not sure I take your meaning properly.
Its really not up to the developers on if there will be addons or not. They are named 3rd party, because someone else makes and maintains them. It is challenging and time consuming from the dev point of view also to track down and punish addon users, because it is so very hard to figure out who uses them. And its kind of unreasonable to expect them to stay on top of it forever, when we would rather they work on new content for us to enjoy.
I think its on us, as the community of gamers playing the game, to influence and decide what sort of community we want. A good example of community moderation is the ff14 japan servers raiding community. While they generally accept the use of dps meters and parsers, they strongly shame people that use automated callouts, or cheat programs. Party kick and blacklist.
So, in the context of Ashes. We are provided combat logs. Because we have combat logs provided to us there will be a parser written within the first week for those of us that like numbers to be able to sort the log data into fancy charts so we can figure out which stats we like best.
We are not provided any sort of API to directly interact with the game. It will be awhile until the favorite logging tool ACT has a plugin written for ashes since someone has to figure out the network traffic and all that, but such a tool sits on the line of grey area if not in the black.
I dont even need to talk about automated callout programs (Which act can also do) or cheat programs. Those are clearly wrong.
So, we, (collectively all of us) have to decide as the community, how we interact with the addon users when they pop up.
it is a shitty truth unfortunately. Many developers and studio throw a good pitch of their product and idea. I dont like it anymore than you do lol.
Expectations vs Reality.
Not sure I take your meaning properly.
Its really not up to the developers on if there will be addons or not. They are named 3rd party, because someone else makes and maintains them. It is challenging and time consuming from the dev point of view also to track down and punish addon users, because it is so very hard to figure out who uses them. And its kind of unreasonable to expect them to stay on top of it forever, when we would rather they work on new content for us to enjoy.
I think its on us, as the community of gamers playing the game, to influence and decide what sort of community we want. A good example of community moderation is the ff14 japan servers raiding community. While they generally accept the use of dps meters and parsers, they strongly shame people that use automated callouts, or cheat programs. Party kick and blacklist.
So, in the context of Ashes. We are provided combat logs. Because we have combat logs provided to us there will be a parser written within the first week for those of us that like numbers to be able to sort the log data into fancy charts so we can figure out which stats we like best.
We are not provided any sort of API to directly interact with the game. It will be awhile until the favorite logging tool ACT has a plugin written for ashes since someone has to figure out the network traffic and all that, but such a tool sits on the line of grey area if not in the black.
I dont even need to talk about automated callout programs (Which act can also do) or cheat programs. Those are clearly wrong.
So, we, (collectively all of us) have to decide as the community, how we interact with the addon users when they pop up.
Not technically wrong by any means.
Developers can allow inhouse made and/or third-party. Both function the same from source allowances.
Community generally push for meters and addons regardless of specific to a game or generalisation of demographic. It's like social media. Look how many more narcissists are in society because of it and continued exposure to future generations creating more. It's becoming the norm. It's one of those wait and find out leniency snowball things.
We as a community is ever changing from then, now and future. It's how sample sizes work regardless of methods. No different than studies and experiments.
It's like social media. Look how many more narcissists are in society because of it and continued exposure to future generations creating more. It's becoming the norm. It's one of those wait and find out leniency snowball things.
I don't think there are more, I just think those that are become more obvious due to social media.
It's like social media. Look how many more narcissists are in society because of it and continued exposure to future generations creating more. It's becoming the norm. It's one of those wait and find out leniency snowball things.
I don't think there are more, I just think those that are become more obvious due to social media.
So, we, (collectively all of us) have to decide as the community, how we interact with the addon users when they pop up.
This is the key point, imo.
Only thing is, I do t see it as a collective thing, I see it as an individual thing. Each person has to decide for themselves.
This is the core of why I like the notion of a guild based combat tracker - one that guilds can select as a perk.
If each individual makes a decision whether they do or do not want to be associated with combat tracker use, that decision is naturally going to partially inform their guild decision. Someone that wants to use them isn't likely to join a guild that is dead set against them, and conversely someone that hates the very notion of them isn't going to join a guild that is always running them.
This is a natural split in the population that players absolutely will make. It will exist in the game regardless of Intrepids stance on trackers.
Since this split will exist, I am of the opinion that Intrepid can best serve its player base by working with that split, building the best tracker they can in to the game for those that want it, and not allowing it to work on anyone that is not in their guild.
This allows those that want it to have it right there, but is also the best chance those that don't want it will have of not being forced to associate with trackers directly (even if unknowingly).
Basically, it allows players to make their own decision.
Of all actually plausible options, it is easily the best for players that want trackers, players that do not want trackers and also for Intrepid.
DPS meters are dumb, nothing new to see here. Same arguments from page 10, 30, 50-150 all being talked about again here and repeated word to word.
Bad players dont like them. That is it.
This is only partially true.
There are indeed many players that simply dont understand what a combat tracker does, or how the information it lays out for you could be benefitial.
Such people are indeed bad players.
However, there are also people that are against them due to not believi g players should need a third party tool to do this - and it is simply that third party aspect of it that they are against.
These players need not be inherently bad at the game.
Good players use logs and video review to solve mechanics and prog encounters to get that clear faster than others.
I am 100% for us having better combat logs that make it easier for us as players to parse through and sift through the data, and I also think we should get all of the data of all participants of a fight in our log. (Not gonna happen, but its what I think)
I dont care one little bit about real time DPS meters. They don't help you solve a fight as the encounter is in progress. Still gotta go back and review the log and video to figure out what happened as the team is exploring new mechanics and how to solve them.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. They help players that didnt do all the prog themselves to skip the prog and get the clear with much less effort. Players dont even have to watch bosses anymore, they can just watch the addon.
As players, the expectation should be that we are using default, provided in game information while the encounter is in progress.
Game skill is the ability to execute, which is gained by experience or talent
Game knowledge is the understanding of what is happening, which is gained by review of data
Knowledge augments skill, and is the fastest way to get good at a game.
You can still be good at a game without knowledge turns out. So I actually agree with Noaani here.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
Hold on there friend.
That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log.
A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker).
Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing).
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format.
Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
It will happen sooner rather than later. Ashes has few indicators of intent except animations so the triggers will be difficult for some. Therefore, a combat assistant will be sought when the masses come.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
It will happen sooner rather than later. Ashes has few indicators of intent except animations so the triggers will be difficult for some. Therefore, a combat assistant will be sought when the masses come.
Excellent. If we have Combat trackers we should also have combat assistants.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
This just shows a total lack of understanding.
WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files.
The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
This just shows a total lack of understanding.
WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files.
The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch.
What lack of understanding it shows? You can make a program that after X min of combat lets you know what abilities are incoming in what time range. You can also use software with AI that recognizes pattern (visual cues) and knows what's coming next.
You don't need an exposed API to know what's coming. Wow in Vanilla didn't have that and we still have combat assistant that let you know the next ability incoming.
Comments
Indeed it is.
I mean, it isn't as if there is anything to add to "I'll have a tracker regardless of what Intrepid has to say about it", so there isn't really any more discussion to be had other than pointing this fact out to new people coming in to the thread.
you probs shouldnt say that. they gonna be onto u now xD
It's not even that controversial of a topic.
Most people do not understand statistics, so they act like fools about it and create an adversarial environment for others.
So there's no DPS meters.
End.
we better have pointless reiterated back and forth conversations for 10 pages to bury it then so no one ever knows....
Which has nothing at all to do with parsing combat logs to interpret the information.
currently and allegedly
vaknar reads everything. i feel sorry for him lol. intrepid also probably has some faceless employees reading this forum and all social media. i also feel bad for them
Awareness and perceptive characteristics in relation to validity of opinion priority.
I want to play my character like I feel to. Unless I am in the 1% my build shouldn't matter.
So why do we need to create a combat tracker for that 1%?
The most common position is "there will be one anyways" which is the shittiest argument I've ever heard. So why forbid addons if there will be anwaysy? Next time we're dealing with addons calling every single mechanic like in Wow. How is that a fun game?
it is a shitty truth unfortunately. Many developers and studio throw a good pitch of their product and idea. I dont like it anymore than you do lol.
Expectations vs Reality.
Not sure I take your meaning properly.
Its really not up to the developers on if there will be addons or not. They are named 3rd party, because someone else makes and maintains them. It is challenging and time consuming from the dev point of view also to track down and punish addon users, because it is so very hard to figure out who uses them. And its kind of unreasonable to expect them to stay on top of it forever, when we would rather they work on new content for us to enjoy.
I think its on us, as the community of gamers playing the game, to influence and decide what sort of community we want. A good example of community moderation is the ff14 japan servers raiding community. While they generally accept the use of dps meters and parsers, they strongly shame people that use automated callouts, or cheat programs. Party kick and blacklist.
So, in the context of Ashes. We are provided combat logs. Because we have combat logs provided to us there will be a parser written within the first week for those of us that like numbers to be able to sort the log data into fancy charts so we can figure out which stats we like best.
We are not provided any sort of API to directly interact with the game. It will be awhile until the favorite logging tool ACT has a plugin written for ashes since someone has to figure out the network traffic and all that, but such a tool sits on the line of grey area if not in the black.
I dont even need to talk about automated callout programs (Which act can also do) or cheat programs. Those are clearly wrong.
So, we, (collectively all of us) have to decide as the community, how we interact with the addon users when they pop up.
Not technically wrong by any means.
Developers can allow inhouse made and/or third-party. Both function the same from source allowances.
Community generally push for meters and addons regardless of specific to a game or generalisation of demographic. It's like social media. Look how many more narcissists are in society because of it and continued exposure to future generations creating more. It's becoming the norm. It's one of those wait and find out leniency snowball things.
We as a community is ever changing from then, now and future. It's how sample sizes work regardless of methods. No different than studies and experiments.
I don't think there are more, I just think those that are become more obvious due to social media.
dont talk to me please
This is the key point, imo.
Only thing is, I do t see it as a collective thing, I see it as an individual thing. Each person has to decide for themselves.
This is the core of why I like the notion of a guild based combat tracker - one that guilds can select as a perk.
If each individual makes a decision whether they do or do not want to be associated with combat tracker use, that decision is naturally going to partially inform their guild decision. Someone that wants to use them isn't likely to join a guild that is dead set against them, and conversely someone that hates the very notion of them isn't going to join a guild that is always running them.
This is a natural split in the population that players absolutely will make. It will exist in the game regardless of Intrepids stance on trackers.
Since this split will exist, I am of the opinion that Intrepid can best serve its player base by working with that split, building the best tracker they can in to the game for those that want it, and not allowing it to work on anyone that is not in their guild.
This allows those that want it to have it right there, but is also the best chance those that don't want it will have of not being forced to associate with trackers directly (even if unknowingly).
Basically, it allows players to make their own decision.
Of all actually plausible options, it is easily the best for players that want trackers, players that do not want trackers and also for Intrepid.
That is funny, imagine needing a tool because you are unable to figure things out and calling other players bad.
Account join date today, the 7 posts mostly troll posts. Claims wow doesnt have DBM addon. (something that has existed since 2007)
(Don't mind me, just helping to reach 300 here)
This is only partially true.
There are indeed many players that simply dont understand what a combat tracker does, or how the information it lays out for you could be benefitial.
Such people are indeed bad players.
However, there are also people that are against them due to not believi g players should need a third party tool to do this - and it is simply that third party aspect of it that they are against.
These players need not be inherently bad at the game.
Welp now i know not to respond lol.
Good players use logs and video review to solve mechanics and prog encounters to get that clear faster than others.
I am 100% for us having better combat logs that make it easier for us as players to parse through and sift through the data, and I also think we should get all of the data of all participants of a fight in our log. (Not gonna happen, but its what I think)
I dont care one little bit about real time DPS meters. They don't help you solve a fight as the encounter is in progress. Still gotta go back and review the log and video to figure out what happened as the team is exploring new mechanics and how to solve them.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. They help players that didnt do all the prog themselves to skip the prog and get the clear with much less effort. Players dont even have to watch bosses anymore, they can just watch the addon.
As players, the expectation should be that we are using default, provided in game information while the encounter is in progress.
Game skill is the ability to execute, which is gained by experience or talent
Game knowledge is the understanding of what is happening, which is gained by review of data
Knowledge augments skill, and is the fastest way to get good at a game.
You can still be good at a game without knowledge turns out. So I actually agree with Noaani here.
Hold on there friend.
That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log.
A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker).
Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing).
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format.
Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
It will happen sooner rather than later. Ashes has few indicators of intent except animations so the triggers will be difficult for some. Therefore, a combat assistant will be sought when the masses come.
Excellent. If we have Combat trackers we should also have combat assistants.
This just shows a total lack of understanding.
WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files.
The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch.
What lack of understanding it shows? You can make a program that after X min of combat lets you know what abilities are incoming in what time range. You can also use software with AI that recognizes pattern (visual cues) and knows what's coming next.
You don't need an exposed API to know what's coming. Wow in Vanilla didn't have that and we still have combat assistant that let you know the next ability incoming.