Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
Hold on there friend.
That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log.
A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker).
Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing).
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format.
Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other.
i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
The information will be sent to the client, the client needs it for players to interact with the world.
We also get the numerical data in the log they will give us.
i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
The information will be sent to the client, the client needs it for players to interact with the world.
We also get the numerical data in the log they will give us.
i know.... but i was saying, they it wasnt that way how would combat tracker uses clear stuff. funn xDDD
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
This just shows a total lack of understanding.
WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files.
The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch.
What lack of understanding it shows? You can make a program that after X min of combat lets you know what abilities are incoming in what time range.
The lack of understanding is literally on display in this portion here of your reply.
How can you make that program? How can you know what abilities are incoming? The only way you can do that is if the abilities are on a timer - and encounters with abilities that are on a timer are designed in this manner specifically so that players can time them. That is literally the intended interaction.
In an encounter where abilities are not on a set timer, a combat tracker can't tell you shit in regards to what is coming and when.
A combat assistant, however, can.
You can also use software with AI that recognizes pattern (visual cues) and knows what's coming next.
Speculation on what may come in the following years is pointless.
You don't need an exposed API to know what's coming. Wow in Vanilla didn't have that and we still have combat assistant that let you know the next ability incoming.
WoW at launch had a more exposed API than any other AAA MMO has ever had.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
Hold on there friend.
That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log.
A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker).
Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing).
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format.
Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other.
i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
Without getting in to any detail at all, there is always the possibility, scope, access, expertise and precedent for a combat tracker running on the games server.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
This just shows a total lack of understanding.
WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files.
The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch.
What lack of understanding it shows? You can make a program that after X min of combat lets you know what abilities are incoming in what time range.
The lack of understanding is literally on display in this portion here of your reply.
How can you make that program? How can you know what abilities are incoming? The only way you can do that is if the abilities are on a timer - and encounters with abilities that are on a timer are designed in this manner specifically so that players can time them. That is literally the intended interaction.
In an encounter where abilities are not on a set timer, a combat tracker can't tell you shit in regards to what is coming and when.
A combat assistant, however, can.
You can also use software with AI that recognizes pattern (visual cues) and knows what's coming next.
Speculation on what may come in the following years is pointless.
You don't need an exposed API to know what's coming. Wow in Vanilla didn't have that and we still have combat assistant that let you know the next ability incoming.
WoW at launch had a more exposed API than any other AAA MMO has ever had.
Your argument is "combat tracker will exist no matter what". People can already do simple python programs that use recognition in images to detect stuff, so it's not far fetched, it's something that is happening right now.
So a combat tracker means a combat assistant. According to your logic "they will happen nonetheless" so yeah. Combat assistant incoming
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
Hold on there friend.
That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log.
A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker).
Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing).
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format.
Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other.
i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
Without getting in to any detail at all, there is always the possibility, scope, access, expertise and precedent for a combat tracker running on the games server.
imagine you cant hack their server. you get 0 info about the combat. how people are gonna clear?
but if you gonna hack to clear, might as well just bot to clear =x
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
Hold on there friend.
That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log.
A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker).
Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing).
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format.
Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other.
i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
Without getting in to any detail at all, there is always the possibility, scope, access, expertise and precedent for a combat tracker running on the games server.
imagine you cant hack their server. you get 0 info about the combat. how people are gonna clear?
but if you gonna hack to clear, might as well just bot to clear =x
This is my point. Why do we need this information. How is this information relevant to make the game "competitive". I just don't get it.
I wish we could see no damage at all. You swing, you do damage, or you don't.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
Hold on there friend.
That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log.
A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker).
Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing).
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format.
Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other.
i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
Without getting in to any detail at all, there is always the possibility, scope, access, expertise and precedent for a combat tracker running on the games server.
imagine you cant hack their server. you get 0 info about the combat. how people are gonna clear?
but if you gonna hack to clear, might as well just bot to clear =x
To be clear, I'm not exactly for a server based third party tracker. I just wanted to point out that it has happened in other games (thus the precedent already existing), and those that are working on trackers for Ashes between them have the knowledge, access and desire to oull it off if there is no other way.
The thing you are asking a question about simply cant exist. Mobs dying is information that a tracker can use. The game simply cant function without some information being sent to the client.
Your question kind of reads to me as if you are asking how the game would be if characters coildnt walk on thr groud, but instead fell through. It simply wouldnt be released in that state. Likewise, there is no acceptable release stste the game could be in where there is no information sent to the client.
So, the only answer I can give you is that if there was no information sent to the client, no one would be playing because the game would be considered broken.
I know that isnt the answer you want, but it is the correct answer.
Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either.
So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
This just shows a total lack of understanding.
WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files.
The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch.
What lack of understanding it shows? You can make a program that after X min of combat lets you know what abilities are incoming in what time range.
The lack of understanding is literally on display in this portion here of your reply.
How can you make that program? How can you know what abilities are incoming? The only way you can do that is if the abilities are on a timer - and encounters with abilities that are on a timer are designed in this manner specifically so that players can time them. That is literally the intended interaction.
In an encounter where abilities are not on a set timer, a combat tracker can't tell you shit in regards to what is coming and when.
A combat assistant, however, can.
You can also use software with AI that recognizes pattern (visual cues) and knows what's coming next.
Speculation on what may come in the following years is pointless.
You don't need an exposed API to know what's coming. Wow in Vanilla didn't have that and we still have combat assistant that let you know the next ability incoming.
WoW at launch had a more exposed API than any other AAA MMO has ever had.
Your argument is "combat tracker will exist no matter what". People can already do simple python programs that use recognition in images to detect stuff, so it's not far fetched, it's something that is happening right now.
So a combat tracker means a combat assistant. According to your logic "they will happen nonetheless" so yeah. Combat assistant incoming
Even then, anything that is recognised on screen is information the developers specificslly wsnt us to have.
If a script recognizes an attack animation and calls it out, the developers wanted us to know that attack was happening. That is why they gave that attack a unique animation - they didnt have to give it an animation at all if they didnt want players knowing it was happening.
This is not the same as a combat assistant calling abilities before an animation has even started - something combat assistsnts do regularly.
If you are dealing with information that is on screen or in thr log file, that is a combat tracker.
As such, without API access, a combat assistsnt literally isnt possible.
You like pvp, right? I'd assume you consider it a fairly social feature, cause people group up and work together to fight enemies, and they can find great rivals to respect and potentially even befriend for years to come.
So let's say a person says that they find pvp mmo utterly unsocial. And when you ask them why they think so they say "several of my friends played pvp mmos and they'd always get kicked from parties/guilds for being too weak, and then they'd get killed in pvp because they were alone".
Would you say that this person is factually incorrect?
I don't enjoy PvP enough to reply to this specific scenario. Especially because I am multiplayer RPG fan rather than a PvP MMO fan.
But, in terms of DPS Meters...
I hate in when my friends are kicked from META-focused parties/raids for not being META.
Because I am more interested in the social aspects of cooperative playing than I am in the META aspects of competitive gaming.
Usually, I'm the one in guild parties who will figure out a winning strategy for defeating (PvE) challenges based on what each individual member brings to the group and based on how each individual player likes to play their class build. And I do that without consulting combat logs.
I just pay attention to player behaviors and mob behaviors.
So, I find kicking players just for not using the Most Efficient Tactics Available to be toxic (and perhaps somewhat antisocial). And I'm glad Steven feels the same and is therefore planning not to allow DPS meters, specifically.
"Factually incorrect" is a misleading question because - as this megathread exemplifies - it's really down to opinion and playstyle and what the devs wish to support for their game.
"Factually incorrect" is a misleading question because - as this megathread exemplifies - it's really down to opinion and playstyle and what the devs wish to support for their game.
That question was in the context of Mag arguing about socialness (or lack of) of trackers. I simply tried to put him into the shoes of someone on the other side of his argument.
You're more of a unique situation in this context because you agree with Mag's stance of "we shouldn't need trackers", but you're also not a pvper, so my example doesn't apply to you in the way it, supposedly, applies to Mag.
Combat Logs are there for individuals to be able to review their own tactics - should they choose to do so.
They absolutely are not there for debates or arguments because they are intended for individual review; not for party review -- especially in the Ashes design.
Combat Trackers/DPS Meters exist for groups to review. Where there are multiple perspectives and interpretations of data - expect debate and arguments to ensue.
As been stated before, trackers and meters simply use those personal logs (unless you're WoW, but we're not, so fuck that).
And when the game is built around party being a single combat unit, personal logs ARE a part of the party log. So if the party fails to do smth, it's much easier to notice the source of the fail if everyone has their logs. And as Azherae pointed out in the past, parties usually have a person who's the best at analyzing logs, so instead of every member doing it on their own - it's a party interaction, mainly with the "log person".
Don't have to notice all potential happenings in an encounter. Just have to be aware enough to be successful.
And, we shouldn't need to rely on combat logs to be successful.
Especially when they are reviewed after the encounter has ended.
Yes, some things will be obvious after a loss. There was a meme in russian part of L2: "archer asks his healer "why did I die?" and the healer says "your HP hit 0".
But Azherae, Noaani and I usually discuss meters in the context of high lvl pve, where "your hp hit 0" is not even considered as a thought, because it's several steps below the "obvious" lvl of understanding of the previous encounter.
In other words, we're talking about hardcore challenge pve, while, I assume, you're mostly talking about lower challenge pve. Unless your party experience differs from your own preferences? Cause I don't remember if I've ever asked you about that.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That question was in the context of Mag arguing about socialness (or lack of) of trackers. I simply tried to put him into the shoes of someone on the other side of his argument.
You're more of a unique situation in this context because you agree with Mag's stance of "we shouldn't need trackers", but you're also not a pvper, so my example doesn't apply to you in the way it, supposedly, applies to Mag.
Yep... But, even for Mag... it's not going to be a matter of factually incorrect- regardless of his actual answer.
And when the game is built around party being a single combat unit, personal logs ARE a part of the party log. So if the party fails to do smth, it's much easier to notice the source of the fail if everyone has their logs. And as Azherae pointed out in the past, parties usually have a person who's the best at analyzing logs, so instead of every member doing it on their own - it's a party interaction, mainly with the "log person".
It can be easier... just because you can doesn't mean you should. Depends on how one values the consequences.
In the case of DPS Meters for Ashes, Steven's perspective is that the ease of use is not worth including the feature due the potential for "toxic" consequences.
I find the notion of "notice the source" to be the foundation of the toxic behavior.
Too many Party Leaders are going to seek the party member they can most easily flag as the weakest link to be "the source" and kick that scapegoat from the group.
When I devise winning strategies, I'm not looking for "the source". Rather, I'm evaluating how each player likes to play along with the behavior of the mob(s) in order to adjust the party's tactics.
We should not be required to rely on a combat log to tell us that someone got hit by an Ice Arrow. We should all be able to notice that there are opponents using Ice Arrows and adjust for that.
And, if it's the case that one member is not adept at moving out of the Fire - it may be that we as a party need to focus more Heals on that character. Which shoud be fine in an RPG because we should be expecting to shore up the weaknesses of a character with low WIS and/or low DEX.
RPGs are intended to be about the RPS aspects of a player character's strengths and weaknesses in the group and aiding the members in your group despite their individual weaknesses. RPGs are not supposed to be about easily determining which player you think sucks the most and kicking them from the group.
And sure... that can be very a different expectation compared to competitive "PvP MMOs".
we're talking about hardcore challenge pve, while, I assume, you're mostly talking about lower challenge pve. Unless your party experience differs from your own preferences? Cause I don't remember if I've ever asked you about that.
I'm certainly not talking about what Noanni refers to as Top End PvE.
We shouldn't add DPS Meters (and the toxicity that typically comes with their inclusion) just to appease the 1% of MMORPG players.
But, in terms of DPS Meters...
I hate in when my friends are kicked from META-focused parties/raids for not being META.
Because I am more interested in the social aspects of cooperative playing than I am in the META aspects of competitive gaming.
I'm against kicking people based on performance on a single fight or raid. But if you join a "META-focused parties/raids" then you are also expected to be META-focused.
The scenario you just describes sounds more of a problem with your friends joining the wrong groups/raids, rather than DPS meters.
Again, I'm against that type of mindset but some players will have "META" in there head no matter what. It's just best to stay away from those types of people and play with like minded players.
Usually, I'm the one in guild parties who will figure out a winning strategy for defeating (PvE) challenges based on what each individual member brings to the group and based on how each individual player likes to play their class build. And I do that without consulting combat logs.
I just pay attention to player behaviors and mob behaviors.
I'm usually the one that do the combat log analysis and combat strategy in my guild. I mostly used the the combat log to see what was wrong with those strategies and how they could be improved. And to see if my raiders did the job that they where asked to do. Keeping an eye on 40 raiders during combat is quite challenging, so having logs that I could then review helped me help them to improve. But that's just me, how other guilds handle improvements of their raids isn't better or worse than my way. It's all up to how your guild runs and your goals with the guild as a whole
Alright! Back after engaging the add that was constantly pulling us off the boss, I guess?
@NiKr - note that I'm just talking about any scenario in which there are too many things happening for a single person to easily track. High level teamwork in nearly any situation requires some form of baseline point for improvement that requires this (in the games I play currently).
So, Dygz, there's a part of this I don't understand, because once again, it sounds like the exact same flow but with a different outcome that isn't related to the tracker, but to the group.
You're supposed to be able to 'flag the weakest link as the source'. I consider it better to have a way to avoid the argument over 'who the weakest link was', particularly when there are conflicting goals in a moment. Sometimes it's not even an argument, 'everyone at once' is feeling the same thing, but they don't know where to target, so the leader decides.
Whether or not the leader 'looks for someone to blame the loss on' is irrelevant, the leader is always 'looking for something (and therefore someone) that needed to either play better or be supported more, but as always, the outcome/goal of having that data differs.
This probably 'can' occur even in games with 'average challenge' if the goal of the players is to improve at the game, and PvP/PvX MMORPGs have a 'challenge rating' that is determined primarily by the skill levels of the top 10-13% of players regardless.
Anyways, if y'all want clips, I got clips! We can discuss really concrete stuff. I have 'brought the items to clear the encounter', lmk if we wanna use 'em.
"Factually incorrect" is a misleading question because - as this megathread exemplifies - it's really down to opinion and playstyle and what the devs wish to support for their game.
I would argue differently.
If I said "combat trackers always increase social interactions for everyone that uses them" that would be a factually incorrect statement.
I can state that I have seen increases in social interaction due to trackers, but I can't state it to always be the case.
The reverse is also true. Anyone stating that combat trackers reduce social interaction for people that use them is factually incorrect - even if their own personal experience has been exactly that.
This is the difference between subjective and objective, between opinion and fact.
But, in terms of DPS Meters...
I hate in when my friends are kicked from META-focused parties/raids for not being META.
Because I am more interested in the social aspects of cooperative playing than I am in the META aspects of competitive gaming.
I hate it when this kind of thing happens as well.
The problem is, this is as much you and your friends fault as it is the people kicking you from the group or raid.
If you guys know you are not focused on being efficient, you should avoid joining groups with people that are focused on it. This has nothing to do with trackers, and is simply a case of diametrically opposed gameplay styles shouldn't attempt to get along.
If that means you get fewer groups and raids, that is just a result of the way you guys want to play the game.
I mean, if you guys had an RP event like a wedding or something, and I came along and started talking about real world politics or sport, you probably wouldn't want me around. At the very least, you would likely ignore this player (the RP equivlent of booting someone from the group).
This is just another example of people with different ways of playing and enjoying the game not being compatible with each other.
Know how you want to play, and only play with people that have a compatible gameplay style.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You aren't supposed to find the "weakest link" - you just need to determine how to synergize with your groupmates to mitigate their weaknesses and enhance their strengths. While evaluating the strenghts and weaknesses of your opponents.
And you should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that - especially, the group should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that.
You don't really need to "improve". You just need to be able to defeat the challenges you encounter.
You aren't supposed to find the "weakest link" - you just need to determine how to synergize with your groupmates to mitigate their weaknesses and enhance their strengths. While evaluating the strenghts and weaknesses of your opponents.
And you should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that - especially, the group should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that.
You don't really need to "improve". You just need to be able to defeat the challenges you encounter.
You don't rely on a combat tracker to do that, you use a combat tracker to assist you in doing that.
The whole issue you have with weakest link is a perfect example of ignoratio elenchi. As I have said to you in the past, if someone is of a predisposition to remove another player from a group for underperforming, they do not need a combat tracker to do so.
If your suggestion that we should not need a combat tracker to understand the strengths and weaknesses of those in our group or raid were indeed true, then this would only make the above even more obvious. If you can tell the strengths and weaknesses of people in your group either with or without a combat tracker, then you can spot the weakest link in your group. It is then up to that predisposition of the leader as to whether they boot that player or not.
If you wanted a game in which players weren't able to spot the weakest link in their group, then you would want a game where you can't see the strengths and weaknesses of those in your group or raid, not a game where it is blatantly obvious.
Some people want to play the game with combat trackers, others without.
Who should to be the target audience?
We're still waiting for Steven (or maybe Bill Trost?) to tell us.
Since 'target audience' is going to be decided by design, not 'by whether or not the trackers are technically banned', then it comes back to what Dygz was saying. If the game is built so that the challenge level isn't one where the 'average person that knows how to get a parser' actually cares about it, then most likely, the sort of person who enjoys the part of the game that involves parser usage, won't be the target audience.
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i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_logs
The information will be sent to the client, the client needs it for players to interact with the world.
We also get the numerical data in the log they will give us.
i know.... but i was saying, they it wasnt that way how would combat tracker uses clear stuff. funn xDDD
How can you make that program? How can you know what abilities are incoming? The only way you can do that is if the abilities are on a timer - and encounters with abilities that are on a timer are designed in this manner specifically so that players can time them. That is literally the intended interaction.
In an encounter where abilities are not on a set timer, a combat tracker can't tell you shit in regards to what is coming and when.
A combat assistant, however, can. Speculation on what may come in the following years is pointless. WoW at launch had a more exposed API than any other AAA MMO has ever had.
Without getting in to any detail at all, there is always the possibility, scope, access, expertise and precedent for a combat tracker running on the games server.
Your argument is "combat tracker will exist no matter what". People can already do simple python programs that use recognition in images to detect stuff, so it's not far fetched, it's something that is happening right now.
So a combat tracker means a combat assistant. According to your logic "they will happen nonetheless" so yeah. Combat assistant incoming
imagine you cant hack their server. you get 0 info about the combat. how people are gonna clear?
but if you gonna hack to clear, might as well just bot to clear =x
This is my point. Why do we need this information. How is this information relevant to make the game "competitive". I just don't get it.
I wish we could see no damage at all. You swing, you do damage, or you don't.
The thing you are asking a question about simply cant exist. Mobs dying is information that a tracker can use. The game simply cant function without some information being sent to the client.
Your question kind of reads to me as if you are asking how the game would be if characters coildnt walk on thr groud, but instead fell through. It simply wouldnt be released in that state. Likewise, there is no acceptable release stste the game could be in where there is no information sent to the client.
So, the only answer I can give you is that if there was no information sent to the client, no one would be playing because the game would be considered broken.
I know that isnt the answer you want, but it is the correct answer.
Even then, anything that is recognised on screen is information the developers specificslly wsnt us to have.
If a script recognizes an attack animation and calls it out, the developers wanted us to know that attack was happening. That is why they gave that attack a unique animation - they didnt have to give it an animation at all if they didnt want players knowing it was happening.
This is not the same as a combat assistant calling abilities before an animation has even started - something combat assistsnts do regularly.
If you are dealing with information that is on screen or in thr log file, that is a combat tracker.
As such, without API access, a combat assistsnt literally isnt possible.
But, in terms of DPS Meters...
I hate in when my friends are kicked from META-focused parties/raids for not being META.
Because I am more interested in the social aspects of cooperative playing than I am in the META aspects of competitive gaming.
Usually, I'm the one in guild parties who will figure out a winning strategy for defeating (PvE) challenges based on what each individual member brings to the group and based on how each individual player likes to play their class build. And I do that without consulting combat logs.
I just pay attention to player behaviors and mob behaviors.
So, I find kicking players just for not using the Most Efficient Tactics Available to be toxic (and perhaps somewhat antisocial). And I'm glad Steven feels the same and is therefore planning not to allow DPS meters, specifically.
"Factually incorrect" is a misleading question because - as this megathread exemplifies - it's really down to opinion and playstyle and what the devs wish to support for their game.
You're more of a unique situation in this context because you agree with Mag's stance of "we shouldn't need trackers", but you're also not a pvper, so my example doesn't apply to you in the way it, supposedly, applies to Mag.
And when the game is built around party being a single combat unit, personal logs ARE a part of the party log. So if the party fails to do smth, it's much easier to notice the source of the fail if everyone has their logs. And as Azherae pointed out in the past, parties usually have a person who's the best at analyzing logs, so instead of every member doing it on their own - it's a party interaction, mainly with the "log person".
Yes, some things will be obvious after a loss. There was a meme in russian part of L2: "archer asks his healer "why did I die?" and the healer says "your HP hit 0".
But Azherae, Noaani and I usually discuss meters in the context of high lvl pve, where "your hp hit 0" is not even considered as a thought, because it's several steps below the "obvious" lvl of understanding of the previous encounter.
In other words, we're talking about hardcore challenge pve, while, I assume, you're mostly talking about lower challenge pve. Unless your party experience differs from your own preferences? Cause I don't remember if I've ever asked you about that.
In the case of DPS Meters for Ashes, Steven's perspective is that the ease of use is not worth including the feature due the potential for "toxic" consequences.
I find the notion of "notice the source" to be the foundation of the toxic behavior.
Too many Party Leaders are going to seek the party member they can most easily flag as the weakest link to be "the source" and kick that scapegoat from the group.
When I devise winning strategies, I'm not looking for "the source". Rather, I'm evaluating how each player likes to play along with the behavior of the mob(s) in order to adjust the party's tactics.
We should not be required to rely on a combat log to tell us that someone got hit by an Ice Arrow. We should all be able to notice that there are opponents using Ice Arrows and adjust for that.
And, if it's the case that one member is not adept at moving out of the Fire - it may be that we as a party need to focus more Heals on that character. Which shoud be fine in an RPG because we should be expecting to shore up the weaknesses of a character with low WIS and/or low DEX.
RPGs are intended to be about the RPS aspects of a player character's strengths and weaknesses in the group and aiding the members in your group despite their individual weaknesses. RPGs are not supposed to be about easily determining which player you think sucks the most and kicking them from the group.
And sure... that can be very a different expectation compared to competitive "PvP MMOs".
I'm certainly not talking about what Noanni refers to as Top End PvE.
We shouldn't add DPS Meters (and the toxicity that typically comes with their inclusion) just to appease the 1% of MMORPG players.
I'm against kicking people based on performance on a single fight or raid. But if you join a "META-focused parties/raids" then you are also expected to be META-focused.
The scenario you just describes sounds more of a problem with your friends joining the wrong groups/raids, rather than DPS meters.
Again, I'm against that type of mindset but some players will have "META" in there head no matter what. It's just best to stay away from those types of people and play with like minded players.
I'm usually the one that do the combat log analysis and combat strategy in my guild. I mostly used the the combat log to see what was wrong with those strategies and how they could be improved. And to see if my raiders did the job that they where asked to do. Keeping an eye on 40 raiders during combat is quite challenging, so having logs that I could then review helped me help them to improve. But that's just me, how other guilds handle improvements of their raids isn't better or worse than my way. It's all up to how your guild runs and your goals with the guild as a whole
@NiKr - note that I'm just talking about any scenario in which there are too many things happening for a single person to easily track. High level teamwork in nearly any situation requires some form of baseline point for improvement that requires this (in the games I play currently).
So, Dygz, there's a part of this I don't understand, because once again, it sounds like the exact same flow but with a different outcome that isn't related to the tracker, but to the group.
You're supposed to be able to 'flag the weakest link as the source'. I consider it better to have a way to avoid the argument over 'who the weakest link was', particularly when there are conflicting goals in a moment. Sometimes it's not even an argument, 'everyone at once' is feeling the same thing, but they don't know where to target, so the leader decides.
Whether or not the leader 'looks for someone to blame the loss on' is irrelevant, the leader is always 'looking for something (and therefore someone) that needed to either play better or be supported more, but as always, the outcome/goal of having that data differs.
This probably 'can' occur even in games with 'average challenge' if the goal of the players is to improve at the game, and PvP/PvX MMORPGs have a 'challenge rating' that is determined primarily by the skill levels of the top 10-13% of players regardless.
Anyways, if y'all want clips, I got clips! We can discuss really concrete stuff. I have 'brought the items to clear the encounter', lmk if we wanna use 'em.
I would argue differently.
If I said "combat trackers always increase social interactions for everyone that uses them" that would be a factually incorrect statement.
I can state that I have seen increases in social interaction due to trackers, but I can't state it to always be the case.
The reverse is also true. Anyone stating that combat trackers reduce social interaction for people that use them is factually incorrect - even if their own personal experience has been exactly that.
This is the difference between subjective and objective, between opinion and fact. I hate it when this kind of thing happens as well.
The problem is, this is as much you and your friends fault as it is the people kicking you from the group or raid.
If you guys know you are not focused on being efficient, you should avoid joining groups with people that are focused on it. This has nothing to do with trackers, and is simply a case of diametrically opposed gameplay styles shouldn't attempt to get along.
If that means you get fewer groups and raids, that is just a result of the way you guys want to play the game.
I mean, if you guys had an RP event like a wedding or something, and I came along and started talking about real world politics or sport, you probably wouldn't want me around. At the very least, you would likely ignore this player (the RP equivlent of booting someone from the group).
This is just another example of people with different ways of playing and enjoying the game not being compatible with each other.
Know how you want to play, and only play with people that have a compatible gameplay style.
And you should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that - especially, the group should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that.
You don't really need to "improve". You just need to be able to defeat the challenges you encounter.
You don't rely on a combat tracker to do that, you use a combat tracker to assist you in doing that.
The whole issue you have with weakest link is a perfect example of ignoratio elenchi. As I have said to you in the past, if someone is of a predisposition to remove another player from a group for underperforming, they do not need a combat tracker to do so.
If your suggestion that we should not need a combat tracker to understand the strengths and weaknesses of those in our group or raid were indeed true, then this would only make the above even more obvious. If you can tell the strengths and weaknesses of people in your group either with or without a combat tracker, then you can spot the weakest link in your group. It is then up to that predisposition of the leader as to whether they boot that player or not.
If you wanted a game in which players weren't able to spot the weakest link in their group, then you would want a game where you can't see the strengths and weaknesses of those in your group or raid, not a game where it is blatantly obvious.
Who should to be the target audience?
We're still waiting for Steven (or maybe Bill Trost?) to tell us.
Since 'target audience' is going to be decided by design, not 'by whether or not the trackers are technically banned', then it comes back to what Dygz was saying. If the game is built so that the challenge level isn't one where the 'average person that knows how to get a parser' actually cares about it, then most likely, the sort of person who enjoys the part of the game that involves parser usage, won't be the target audience.
One more week to go...