DPS Meter Megathread

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Mag7spy

EQ2 is dead there is no community, u can't even attempt to say its not toxic without a proper player base lmao.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Trackers do not need to be given to anyone so they can attempt to gather more information over playing and learning through actual experience in the game and using your brain. Literally wants a trackers so yo can see everyone that is being done and know faster method to more effectively counter something. Game design doesn't need to be made around trackers so nor should it be pushed or accepted.

So, what you sre saying is that o Ashes, anyone that wants a tracker should be able to get a tracker.

Because if Intrepid dont make a tracker for the game them self, that is the outcome.

As to the size of EQ2's community - 2 points.

First, most people understand that I am talking about EQ2 in its prime - when it was undisputedly in the top 5 MMO's world wide.

Second, last I heard, EQ2 had less than 1% of its players on Steam. If that figure is holding true, that puts the fame at 30k concurrent players after 18 years.

Since Ashes wont be live 18 years after launch (we are talking 2042 or so here), that is a samn good effort on EQ2's part.

MrPockets

Noaani wrote: »

As a TL;DR here, in arguing against built in trackers that allow Intrepid to put a limit on who has access, what you are really doing is just handing access over to literally anyone that wants it.

If I am not mistaken, that is exactly what you do not want, yet is the only conclusion to the argument you are making.

This is what I do not understand.

You are building your argument and just hoping the end result that you want will fit. You should perhaps start with the end result you want, and work back.

If I am not mistaken, you want trackers not in the game at all - you know that won't happen.

From there, my understanding is that the next best thing is trackers only in the hands of those that know how to use them - how do we achieve this?

First off, I think you highly overestimate the average player's desire to dig deep into raw data. If the data exists, the vast majority just want to see their number larger than the other's. Education may help in this regard, but depends on how that education is implemented (see last paragraph for more context)

Now, what is the end result I actually want? I want a game where the average player isn't brainwashed into thinking that the only way to prove their value is by having a larger number on a meter. I want it to be easy to find like minded people who want to work together to overcome challenges, not overcome their teammate on a meter.

Do I think a custom tracker with specific features built by intrepid could help solve this problem? sure, but I also think that taking a stance (and enforcement of said stance) is probably more effective, not to mention they can spend time on more important features.

The reason I'm not against "handing access over to literally anyone that wants it" in the context of 3rd party tools, is because I'm under the assumption the devs' stance/enforcement on the subject will deter the average player from even bothering. This has been my experience in FF14, you can find players who use tools if you want to take the game seriously, but you are also much more likely to find players who don't care, and just want to clear some content and work together.

I should clarify what I mean by "enforcement", I think what FF14 has done, is a pretty good compromise to the whole subject matter. it is a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of vibe. Like minded players can talk all they want about the tracker data...but when they force that data on to others who didn't sign up for that type of game play...that's when the person using the tracker is punished. This helps mitigate the toxic behavior that shows up when players end up playing together that don't share the same expectations. It creates an understanding in the community that it is not ok to treat others poorly based on their data/gameplay.

I'd be fine with trackers (1st or 3rd party) as long as it comes with the enforcement aspect of punishing players who use them in a toxic manner. And maybe that enforcement is part of the education you are talking about.

Noaani

MrPockets wrote: »

I'd be fine with trackers (1st or 3rd party) as long as it comes with the enforcement aspect of punishing players who use them in a toxic manner.

I mean, toxic behavior should either be against the rules and thus banned, or not against the rules and thus not banned. The use of a combat tracker in any toxic behavior shouldn't be a factor.

However, I want to tell you about a phone call I had a few minutes ago.

I rung a friend of mine that has played FFXIV for a few years to ask him what he thought about their tracker stance and enforcement. What he told me is that it is basically all just a joke.

Most people in the game use trackers - his estimate is 75%+. However, when people find themselves in a group with someone that they cant identify as using a tracker, everyone basically just sighs.

What this means, he told me, is that players in that group are now in a position where they aren't going to enjoy the group, dont expect much success, and cant boot that player out for fear of them complaining and getting them banned.

Essentially, all that has happened there is the negative experience has shifted, but those that have the negative experience are scared of losing their account if they speak up about it.

This is not a better situation. This is basically making it so everyone not using a tracker in FFXIV is considered the toxic player by the majority - they just aren't aware of it.

From what he has said, as of the last few weeks (something to do with a farming update or something, I have no idea), people are going around with the express intent of ruining other people's time by being in their group and not letting them talk about basically anything objective in regards to the game.

If you want to ban toxic behavior due to trackers in an MMO, I would insist that those people doing the above be on that ban list.

Toxicity around trackers can just as easily come from those not using them as it can from those using them.

---

To me, the single best thing Intrepid could do to reduce the amount of toxicity players come across is to have an objective data based guild recruitment page.

Some games (Archeage comes to mind) have a page where you can advertise your guilds recruiting in game, but the problem is that most of them allow the guilds to say what kind of guild they are. Obviously, this doesnt work well.

If instead of that the guild recruitment page showed what content the guild had cleared recently, how many of their groups were guild only (or alliance only), how many caravans they has successfully delivered, defended and attacked, how many players have gained corruption, how many players have been bounty hunters, how many people have participated in sieges, and also what guild perks the guild has

With all of this being listed, the guild recruitment page is telling potential recruits what the guild ACTUALLY is, and so players are in a better position to find a guild that suits them - and thus less likely to be in situations where they are lumped in with people that have different goals.

Aerlana

Jelen619 wrote: »

I think meters are very usefull, not only for seeing good and bad dps, but also to perfecting your build, and rotation.

In an utopic world with only nice people that would be the same thing

Because seeing bad and good DPS allow you to find what is good to do. And for people ? if we all were nice, we would use this information to help the "bad" (with again help of the tracker that allows to see what is the problem... like to many of a skill, not enough of another etc)[

Mag7spy wrote: »

And yes the guild perk is BS because you can use the same argument here for guild perk to 3rd party trackers. It is pretty clear your starting goal is tracker sin the game and then next goal will be trackers to scan everyone and then it snow balls into other issues.

Not even able to answer my last question or any other...
But i love there... When i spent hours and hours in any MMORPG i played to HELP people to improve their DPS, using test in fight, dummy, and also tracker to find anything false, but also... to prove them why i was right and they were wrong (because yes... i saw people denying their low DPS until ... they downloaded a tracker, and saw the reality... )
And all in explanation to allow them to understand their class and continue to progress by themselves... (Because yes i know, i could simply send them read a guide... easier maybe, but people read, obey and... are just able to do what guides said)

I don't care tracking everyone, except to have comparison (on wow for example, while playing mainly PU, if i see a dude with same class and specialisation than me, i watch their stuff, and watch their DPS to compare myself... allowing to know if i am good enough or not. If i have better stuff but we are close in damages : i am bad. if i have a lesser stuff but get over his DPS, i can think being in good position. this is the main use from the sites warcraftlogs/fflogs in fact... see if you are good or bad, and so, see if you need to progress or not)

I track people to compare myself or... to help them.

So your paranoid "you want the tracker to be a bad guy" ... you don't imagine how far from any reality you are. and if you are sure of that... i invite you to prove what you are saying... The duty of the accusator to give the proofs no ?

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can see what you are doing dps wise if you test your damage against mobs and do a lot of test attacks.

You just want people to do the tracker work (reading datas) with their bare hands.

-Do lot of test, minutes and minutes of battle, or dummy bashings can even be hours when you want to go deep.
This is true with a tracker or without. you will need LOTS of combat informations.

-Then collect data, the best way in a spread sheet. This will allow you to read it, and understand what happened during those test, to really see what was best, or even show you what to test next (taking best part of different setup?)

This second part will take HOURS of filling a spreadsheet while it is instant for a tracker.
This time is cut from playing the game, and socialize with guild, or other people trying to optimise themselves (sharing your test, results, listening to them sharing their own experience etc)

So your way is "don't play the game, fill spreadsheet, it will be more rewarding". Sorry i want to play a game...

MrPockets wrote: »

FF14
Now let's look at some raiding I did in Endwalker, where trackers/DPS meters are more "hush, hush". I was part of yet another casual guild, again players of many skill levels. This time around we were attempting a savage raid, and focus was on learning boss mechanics, and having a good time/laugh. Because of the game's stance on meters being against ToS (even if no punishment is ever taken); the average casual player didn't ever bother getting one set up. Coming from WoW, it was refreshing to not have to listen to the whole parsing contest.

Recently a friend, old player of FFXI, complained to me that... people were focus a lot in their parser results and when they wiped, they watched more the potential lack of DPS... even when the enrage was not the question.

(A really good friend i see often IRL, and the kind to deny me his bad DPS until i prove my word with ACT.)

Also, would be interesting to see if your character was really not recorded and uploaded on the site

The personnal experience remain personnal, small scale. FFlogs is filled of lot casuals... The parser is really common in FFXIV,
Even if people download ACT 10 time in average, there are still over a million people to download it...

MrPockets wrote: »

Conclusion:
While non-toxic groups can form with trackers/DPS meters, when those tools become part of the player culture, there will be many more toxic groups that form. A player looking to have a more casual raiding experience, is going to have a much harder time finding that, if almost every player misuses these types of tools. It is probably better for those tools to not be in the hands of the masses.

With a limit to guild perks (so not for all guild), i think the spread of tracker will be similar to what it is in FFXIV currently.

A casual group like yours in FFXIV won't care to take it, they won't have lot to invest in guild perks, and will surely prefer thing more important in their mind.
Also people like Mag7spy if GM or even Officer will always fight all he can to avoid it to be taken as guild perk (and he would be absolutely right...).
On the other side, the fact there will be a good one, will be enough to make happy people who wants to use one... If people have what they want, they will spend less time to create it themselves. (less time doing it = more time playing, petting the cat or sharing laugh)

What if guilds like yours in wow take the perk ?
To be honest, getting from top to casual level in wow, i can say one thing : your guilds was doomed to never do real good progress. The differences of objectivs, even without tracker, would lead the guild to have 2 camp : we don't progress fast enough vs we are fine, all we care is getting our rythm.

The simple fact those who want to push will see some guild with "similar level" getting faster than them will be enough to try to push more, and here become the problem you said for your wow example. Not even a need of parser. (this is what i saw when i stopped high end/hardcore level guilds to go in casual, more relax guilds).

Here i defend combat tracker : didnt use one for myself in FFXIV but to help my FC members to improve.
My objectivs in Ashes of Creation will probably lead me to don't care at all about tracker. So will probably join a guild which will not take it... And will probably, if it is a debate in the guild, be in favour to NOT take it.
But because i know that ALL bad behaviour that can have tracker as origin will happen even without it, because before any origin, there is the first one : a group of people with too different mindset.
And i also know all good thing can do a tracker if well used.

And for toxicity ? Aside the problem of different mindset, which creates 2 sub-group who are toxic to each other (yes lets face it, there is not "the good guys" and "the bad guys"... ) if people are really toxic just kick them, or even report them if it seems close to a kind of harassment or another behaviour against the TOS. They deserve it. And as many people said in this topic (nearly all) with or without parser, those people will be toxic. they will find a way.

Mag7spy

Still with this BS trying to assume people won't take any other guild perk when they seek trackers are normalized for guilds. Manipulation tactics as usual.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Still with this BS trying to assume people won't take any other guild perk when they seek trackers are normalized for guilds. Manipulation tactics as usual.

I have new insight as to why you are this way from one of your matches. I'll share it mostly to help clarify to people outside my group because it is important enough, I feel, since you keep talking even though you are being largely ignored. I will attempt to not draw the conclusion, hopefully others can draw it without me spelling it out. What I am about to describe is not a hypothetical, it is something I have observed directly from Mag's own content.

Mag is the sort of player who will use a tactic in a Mirror Match (against the same character you use, for those who are unfamiliar with the term) and make a self-appreciative vocalization.

Mag is also the sort of player who will, in the exact same situation, have the opponent use the same tactic successfully against, and make a vocalization that implies 'thinking the opponent is lame or stupid or a weak player for doing it'.

"Accuse the ______ ___"

It allows me to have a very different perspective on your posts. I hope it helps some others.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Still with this BS trying to assume people won't take any other guild perk when they seek trackers are normalized for guilds. Manipulation tactics as usual.

I have new insight as to why you are this way from one of your matches. I'll share it mostly to help clarify to people outside my group because it is important enough, I feel, since you keep talking even though you are being largely ignored. I will attempt to not draw the conclusion, hopefully others can draw it without me spelling it out. What I am about to describe is not a hypothetical, it is something I have observed directly from Mag's own content.

Mag is the sort of player who will use a tactic in a Mirror Match (against the same character you use, for those who are unfamiliar with the term) and make a self-appreciative vocalization.

Mag is also the sort of player who will, in the exact same situation, have the opponent use the same tactic successfully against, and make a vocalization that implies 'thinking the opponent is lame or stupid or a weak player for doing it'.

"Accuse the ______ ___"

It allows me to have a very different perspective on your posts. I hope it helps some others.

Imagine jumping into the convo out of dislike and trying to be rude without being as clear about it. Attempting to put words or actions in someone mouth because you want to believe your fantasy land. You won't understand people because you lack of the capability to be more understanding needing to see things as 1 or 0's. You aren't going to understand my view points or reasoning no matter how much you try.

So please stop trying to make things up on why you think what I do you are very very wrong.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I don't think trackers should be how you figure out mechanics. You should have to figure out these mechanics from the hints they give you in game.

This inherently makes content faster to clear.

In my way, we sit there pulling the encounter several times (perhaps several dozen times), until we think we have an understanding of what is going on. We change things up a bit based on what we are seeing, and perhaps that sees us progress further, perhaps not. Then at the end of the day we pull out the tracker and look over things and work out what is actually happening, based on the observations we saw.

With hints in the content, we pull the mob, read the text that is giving us a "hint" as to what is happening, and probably kill the encounter on the second pull.

Hints in content make content easy, and allow guilds to push through content at a much faster rate than using a tracker.

I know this is the opposite of what many think - that using a tracker allows guilds to get through content much faster. The thing is, this is only true if the content is made to be too easy. If the content is made under the assumption that a tracker will be used, those hints can just be done away with, forcing players to work it all out for ourselves, and thus take much longer - yet be more rewarding when you have finished.

I don't think that should be part of the game and I don't think it's an issue if it makes it harder for you to figure out.

You are now talking about the devs designing the game with trackers in mind and them being an expected part of the game instead of an optional way to improve your performance. That further pushes me against it.

Everything you need to figure out an encounter should in in the game and that is how you should be expected to figure it out.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

You are now talking about the devs designing the game with trackers in mind and expect everyone to use trackers. That further pushes me against it. You are now talking about it being an expected part of the game instead of an optional way to improve your performance.

@mcstackerson

Actually, this is almost exactly the opposite of what I am saying.

When designing content, developers have a difficulty in mind. This is often the first thing they know about the content they are developing - before they know the location, the mob type, the lore - anything like that.

When developing content to a specific difficulty, you look back at previous content that was supposed to be that same difficulty. If players breezed through content that was supposed to be really hard, then the next batch of content aimed at that same difficulty target will be designed to be much harder - in hopes of hitting the target.

You aren't looking at whether players are using trackers or not, you are simply looking at how easily players got through that content in relation to how much of a challenge it was supposed to be. The fact that players are using trackers that makes this content easier is only showing up as the content being easier.

So, if players use trackers on all content, then all content will have it's difficulty based on trackers on all content. Again though, we are still not even looking at tracker use by players.

The above is literally every MMO ever, and will be Ashes since we all know trackers will be a thing.

Now, if Intrepid implement trackers and leave it as a guild only perk that top end guilds are likely to pick but other guilds are not likely to pick (because they want their bonus resources or certificates or what ever), then on most content in the game, trackers aren't being used, and so future content will be based on how quickly players not using trackers get through it.

I'm not sure I have explained the above well enough, so I'll do a TL:DR;

In order for content to not be designed based on players using trackers, players need to actually not be using trackers. The only way to do this, is for Intrepid to control trackers.

If players are using third party trackers, then future content will be designed based on the increased ability of players due to trackers.

Mag7spy

This is fluff just to get trackers in the hands of the people and that way you can more easily justify using "better" 3rd party trackers.

Translation - Give players trackers and if we choose to not use it and feel it doesn't work we will try third party and if it still doesn't work then game difficulty won't be designed around trackers.

Trackers do not need to be normalized nor does gameplay need to be designed for trackers with players cheating getting more information than they should over playing and learning on their own.

Its like game jurnos arguing there needs to be a easy mode in dark souls. Sure you can grab hacks and they exist, but game is not designed for that.

Mag7spy

They need to keep a lot of things hidden so trackers can't tell what is doing what and it won't be nearly as affective even if players are breaking tos to use it. The is how they need to design the gameplay and follow with being against trackers.

MrPockets

Noaani wrote: »

When designing content, developers have a difficulty in mind. This is often the first thing they know about the content they are developing - before they know the location, the mob type, the lore - anything like that.

Let's assume this is true for sake of argument.

To determine difficulty, they would need to asses what tools are available in game. They've already stated that they don't want to allow combat trackers/meters. We have to assume those are the constraints the designers have agreed upon and will design the game around.

when 3rd party trackers are then used on said content, you didn't complete the challenge that designers put forth. you made it "easier" by using a tool outside of the challenge constraints.

This is similar to accepting a challenge of "making a wood table with no power tools", and then claiming the challenge was too easy because you used power saws/drills.

Noaani wrote: »

When developing content to a specific difficulty, you look back at previous content that was supposed to be that same difficulty. If players breezed through content that was supposed to be really hard, then the next batch of content aimed at that same difficulty target will be designed to be much harder - in hopes of hitting the target.

You aren't looking at whether players are using trackers or not, you are simply looking at how easily players got through that content in relation to how much of a challenge it was supposed to be. The fact that players are using trackers that makes this content easier is only showing up as the content being easier.

Your assessment here is that eventually the difficulty over time will naturally move the goal posts towards being extremely difficult even with trackers. That assessment makes sense if the goal of the designers is to create extremely difficult encounters, but who's to say that is their goal? The fact that one of the main design pillars of this game is PvX, I have to assume they want extremely dynamic encounters. Their current stance on meters tells me they want that dynamic content to not require meters to complete.

Maybe they want interesting/fun mechanics instead of super tight stat checks?

How does the fact that most bosses will be open world come into play? A boss might be easy when only 1 group is fighting it, but super hard if it is in contention with another group?

What if they do internal testing without trackers to assess difficulty? Do they want to change this difficulty based on what the top players say is easy/hard?

You make it sounds like there is only 1 way to design MMO encounters, and you want to stay in your comfort zone of using trackers. If the designers don't want to design content with that tool in mind, that is their decision. I'm going to assume that is their intent based on what they've already stated.

Noaani

MrPockets wrote: »

To determine difficulty, they would need to asses what tools are available in game.

No, they just look at how long it takes the target audience to kill it - because that is literally all that matters.

This is the only way to develop content to a specific difficulty in a practical sense. Anything else is only a theoretical exercise.

What if they do internal testing without trackers to assess difficulty?

Players are always better at the game than the developers that made it.

There has literally not been a single MMO where this hasn't been true.

This is why developers don't develop content with a theoretical difficulty, and need to work based on an actual difficulty. The only way to assess actual difficulty is based on how quickly previous content was cleared.

This is similar to accepting a challenge of "making a wood table with no power tools", and then claiming the challenge was too easy because you used power saws/drills.

This is a point you should ponder a little more.

Imagine you were running a competition to build a table. Your intention is for it to be hand tools only, but you are unable to actually determine if participants used hand tools or power tools.

You have no option other than to accept the entrants of all, and can only judge based on the finished product. As such, those using hand tools are still being compared to those using power tools.

Now imagine you have a means to segregate those using hand tools and those using power tools - all you need to do is provide the power tools yourself (I've not gone in to details of this with you, but this is the exact situation Intrepid is in). You now have the opportunity to maintain your hand tools only ideal, it just means you also need to run a power tools competition in parallel.

So, what do you do? Do you have a competition that is basically just what ever tools people want, or do you run a hand tool and power tool competition in parallel?

MrPockets

Noaani wrote: »

Imagine you were running a competition to build a table. Your intention is for it to be hand tools only, but you are unable to actually determine if participants used hand tools or power tools.

You just changed my example to fit your narrative. I stated you (as a player) "accepted a challenge". You changed it to "joined a competition". Those are two different things.

Are there players that treat encounters as competitions? sure. Is that the average player? I don't think so. I find it much more likely they view it as a challenge to overcome -- meaning they accept the tools that the game gives them as everything they need to succeed in that challenge. If intrepid doesn't want to allow trackers for their challenges, then so be it, why do you care?

If there is a smaller subset of players that wants to speed run content and optimize it, fine...but why do the devs need to go against their design principles to make content specifically for that subset of players? Are they not allowed to make their own design decisions? (for better or worse).

Even if you are correct in all of your points, why not let Intrepid make the game they want first, see how things play, and then let the players decide on these things later?

Azherae

MrPockets wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Imagine you were running a competition to build a table. Your intention is for it to be hand tools only, but you are unable to actually determine if participants used hand tools or power tools.

You just changed my example to fit your narrative. I stated you (as a player) "accepted a challenge". You changed it to "joined a competition". Those are two different things.

Are there players that treat encounters as competitions? sure. Is that the average player? I don't think so. I find it much more likely they view it as a challenge to overcome -- meaning they accept the tools that the game gives them as everything they need to succeed in that challenge. If intrepid doesn't want to allow trackers for their challenges, then so be it, why do you care?

If there is a smaller subset of players that wants to speed run content and optimize it, fine...but why do the devs need to go against their design principles to make content specifically for that subset of players? Are they not allowed to make their own design decisions? (for better or worse).

Even if you are correct in all of your points, why not let Intrepid make the game they want first, see how things play, and then let the players decide on these things later?

Because even well built MMOs can die very fast and you have to try to avoid that as much as you can out of the gate, especially now.

I'm not saying Ashes would, I'm saying 'why take an unnecessary risk?'

Maybe it feels necessary to some. Not judging that either. But that would be the main reason why so many people come on these forums with complaints for systems they haven't even tested.
MMOs die QUICKLY. Having them be as robust as possible at launch is preferable.

Noaani

MrPockets wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Imagine you were running a competition to build a table. Your intention is for it to be hand tools only, but you are unable to actually determine if participants used hand tools or power tools.

You just changed my example to fit your narrative. I stated you (as a player) "accepted a challenge". You changed it to "joined a competition". Those are two different things.

The problem here is that your example was constructed to fit your narrative.

It isn't how things actually are. It has literally no resemblance at all to how things actually are.

What I did was explain to you what real, actual MMO developers use to work out how hard they need to make their content. No examples, no hypotheticals. Rather, I gave you the actual metric used.

You wanted to drop that in order to use a hypothetical. I altered your hypothetical to bring it back to be more in line with reality.

Fact is, when determining how hard content is, there is only one metric developers can use - how long did players take to kill the previous content content. If developers create content that they expect players to spend 8 hours on over a week before completing, but players spend 3 hours in total and complete it on the second day, the next time the developers want to make content that players will spend 8 hours on over a week to complete, they will make it harder.

Not only are these the metrics used by developers, in some studios, these same metrics are used as KPI's for content developers - hitting those targets is literally an indicator of how good they are at their job.

meaning they accept the tools that the game gives them as everything they need to succeed in that challenge.

If this were the case, a single plugin for a combat tracker for FFXIV would not have 18 million downloads.

You probably should be working on the assumption that 50%+ of the games population will use a tracker if there is one readily available for the game - because that is what the reality will be.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

MrPockets wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Imagine you were running a competition to build a table. Your intention is for it to be hand tools only, but you are unable to actually determine if participants used hand tools or power tools.

You just changed my example to fit your narrative. I stated you (as a player) "accepted a challenge". You changed it to "joined a competition". Those are two different things.

Are there players that treat encounters as competitions? sure. Is that the average player? I don't think so. I find it much more likely they view it as a challenge to overcome -- meaning they accept the tools that the game gives them as everything they need to succeed in that challenge. If intrepid doesn't want to allow trackers for their challenges, then so be it, why do you care?

If there is a smaller subset of players that wants to speed run content and optimize it, fine...but why do the devs need to go against their design principles to make content specifically for that subset of players? Are they not allowed to make their own design decisions? (for better or worse).

Even if you are correct in all of your points, why not let Intrepid make the game they want first, see how things play, and then let the players decide on these things later?

Because even well built MMOs can die very fast and you have to try to avoid that as much as you can out of the gate, especially now.

I'm not saying Ashes would, I'm saying 'why take an unnecessary risk?'

Maybe it feels necessary to some. Not judging that either. But that would be the main reason why so many people come on these forums with complaints for systems they haven't even tested.
MMOs die QUICKLY. Having them be as robust as possible at launch is preferable.

Not supporting trackers is not a risk to the game you are as usual being manipulative in your post. That is a small minority, the only thing people want is a good game.

When the majority here say do not want trackers and support Steven it would be a risk to suddenly start going back on that and building a game for trackers when people are trying to get away from some of these new modern tools and add on that ruin the game experience.

Mag7spy

@MrPockets They will argue with you for 100 pages, trust me when i say you won't change their mind. Their goal is only to get you to agree to give them trackers or guild ones so they can push for for information given tot hem so they know everything bosses do and can beat it easier, and/or push for thirds party trackers.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

MrPockets They will argue with you for 100 pages, trust me when i say you won't change their mind. Their goal is only to get you to agree to give them trackers or guild ones so they can push for for information given tot hem so they know everything bosses do and can beat it easier, and/or push for thirds party trackers.

See, this is your problem.

You are ore focused on "winning" than on discussing.

You actually don't care about the discussion - which is why you often cut out a little part of it that may be totally irrelevant to the larger picture, just because you think you can get a "win" out of it.

MrPockets is - it seems to me - more interested in discussion.

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