Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_logs
The information will be sent to the client, the client needs it for players to interact with the world.
We also get the numerical data in the log they will give us.
i know.... but i was saying, they it wasnt that way how would combat tracker uses clear stuff. funn xDDD
How can you make that program? How can you know what abilities are incoming? The only way you can do that is if the abilities are on a timer - and encounters with abilities that are on a timer are designed in this manner specifically so that players can time them. That is literally the intended interaction.
In an encounter where abilities are not on a set timer, a combat tracker can't tell you shit in regards to what is coming and when.
A combat assistant, however, can. Speculation on what may come in the following years is pointless. WoW at launch had a more exposed API than any other AAA MMO has ever had.
Without getting in to any detail at all, there is always the possibility, scope, access, expertise and precedent for a combat tracker running on the games server.
Your argument is "combat tracker will exist no matter what". People can already do simple python programs that use recognition in images to detect stuff, so it's not far fetched, it's something that is happening right now.
So a combat tracker means a combat assistant. According to your logic "they will happen nonetheless" so yeah. Combat assistant incoming
imagine you cant hack their server. you get 0 info about the combat. how people are gonna clear?
but if you gonna hack to clear, might as well just bot to clear =x
This is my point. Why do we need this information. How is this information relevant to make the game "competitive". I just don't get it.
I wish we could see no damage at all. You swing, you do damage, or you don't.
The thing you are asking a question about simply cant exist. Mobs dying is information that a tracker can use. The game simply cant function without some information being sent to the client.
Your question kind of reads to me as if you are asking how the game would be if characters coildnt walk on thr groud, but instead fell through. It simply wouldnt be released in that state. Likewise, there is no acceptable release stste the game could be in where there is no information sent to the client.
So, the only answer I can give you is that if there was no information sent to the client, no one would be playing because the game would be considered broken.
I know that isnt the answer you want, but it is the correct answer.
Even then, anything that is recognised on screen is information the developers specificslly wsnt us to have.
If a script recognizes an attack animation and calls it out, the developers wanted us to know that attack was happening. That is why they gave that attack a unique animation - they didnt have to give it an animation at all if they didnt want players knowing it was happening.
This is not the same as a combat assistant calling abilities before an animation has even started - something combat assistsnts do regularly.
If you are dealing with information that is on screen or in thr log file, that is a combat tracker.
As such, without API access, a combat assistsnt literally isnt possible.
But, in terms of DPS Meters...
I hate in when my friends are kicked from META-focused parties/raids for not being META.
Because I am more interested in the social aspects of cooperative playing than I am in the META aspects of competitive gaming.
Usually, I'm the one in guild parties who will figure out a winning strategy for defeating (PvE) challenges based on what each individual member brings to the group and based on how each individual player likes to play their class build. And I do that without consulting combat logs.
I just pay attention to player behaviors and mob behaviors.
So, I find kicking players just for not using the Most Efficient Tactics Available to be toxic (and perhaps somewhat antisocial). And I'm glad Steven feels the same and is therefore planning not to allow DPS meters, specifically.
"Factually incorrect" is a misleading question because - as this megathread exemplifies - it's really down to opinion and playstyle and what the devs wish to support for their game.
You're more of a unique situation in this context because you agree with Mag's stance of "we shouldn't need trackers", but you're also not a pvper, so my example doesn't apply to you in the way it, supposedly, applies to Mag.
And when the game is built around party being a single combat unit, personal logs ARE a part of the party log. So if the party fails to do smth, it's much easier to notice the source of the fail if everyone has their logs. And as Azherae pointed out in the past, parties usually have a person who's the best at analyzing logs, so instead of every member doing it on their own - it's a party interaction, mainly with the "log person".
Yes, some things will be obvious after a loss. There was a meme in russian part of L2: "archer asks his healer "why did I die?" and the healer says "your HP hit 0".
But Azherae, Noaani and I usually discuss meters in the context of high lvl pve, where "your hp hit 0" is not even considered as a thought, because it's several steps below the "obvious" lvl of understanding of the previous encounter.
In other words, we're talking about hardcore challenge pve, while, I assume, you're mostly talking about lower challenge pve. Unless your party experience differs from your own preferences? Cause I don't remember if I've ever asked you about that.
In the case of DPS Meters for Ashes, Steven's perspective is that the ease of use is not worth including the feature due the potential for "toxic" consequences.
I find the notion of "notice the source" to be the foundation of the toxic behavior.
Too many Party Leaders are going to seek the party member they can most easily flag as the weakest link to be "the source" and kick that scapegoat from the group.
When I devise winning strategies, I'm not looking for "the source". Rather, I'm evaluating how each player likes to play along with the behavior of the mob(s) in order to adjust the party's tactics.
We should not be required to rely on a combat log to tell us that someone got hit by an Ice Arrow. We should all be able to notice that there are opponents using Ice Arrows and adjust for that.
And, if it's the case that one member is not adept at moving out of the Fire - it may be that we as a party need to focus more Heals on that character. Which shoud be fine in an RPG because we should be expecting to shore up the weaknesses of a character with low WIS and/or low DEX.
RPGs are intended to be about the RPS aspects of a player character's strengths and weaknesses in the group and aiding the members in your group despite their individual weaknesses. RPGs are not supposed to be about easily determining which player you think sucks the most and kicking them from the group.
And sure... that can be very a different expectation compared to competitive "PvP MMOs".
I'm certainly not talking about what Noanni refers to as Top End PvE.
We shouldn't add DPS Meters (and the toxicity that typically comes with their inclusion) just to appease the 1% of MMORPG players.
I'm against kicking people based on performance on a single fight or raid. But if you join a "META-focused parties/raids" then you are also expected to be META-focused.
The scenario you just describes sounds more of a problem with your friends joining the wrong groups/raids, rather than DPS meters.
Again, I'm against that type of mindset but some players will have "META" in there head no matter what. It's just best to stay away from those types of people and play with like minded players.
I'm usually the one that do the combat log analysis and combat strategy in my guild. I mostly used the the combat log to see what was wrong with those strategies and how they could be improved. And to see if my raiders did the job that they where asked to do. Keeping an eye on 40 raiders during combat is quite challenging, so having logs that I could then review helped me help them to improve. But that's just me, how other guilds handle improvements of their raids isn't better or worse than my way. It's all up to how your guild runs and your goals with the guild as a whole
@NiKr - note that I'm just talking about any scenario in which there are too many things happening for a single person to easily track. High level teamwork in nearly any situation requires some form of baseline point for improvement that requires this (in the games I play currently).
So, Dygz, there's a part of this I don't understand, because once again, it sounds like the exact same flow but with a different outcome that isn't related to the tracker, but to the group.
You're supposed to be able to 'flag the weakest link as the source'. I consider it better to have a way to avoid the argument over 'who the weakest link was', particularly when there are conflicting goals in a moment. Sometimes it's not even an argument, 'everyone at once' is feeling the same thing, but they don't know where to target, so the leader decides.
Whether or not the leader 'looks for someone to blame the loss on' is irrelevant, the leader is always 'looking for something (and therefore someone) that needed to either play better or be supported more, but as always, the outcome/goal of having that data differs.
This probably 'can' occur even in games with 'average challenge' if the goal of the players is to improve at the game, and PvP/PvX MMORPGs have a 'challenge rating' that is determined primarily by the skill levels of the top 10-13% of players regardless.
Anyways, if y'all want clips, I got clips! We can discuss really concrete stuff. I have 'brought the items to clear the encounter', lmk if we wanna use 'em.
I would argue differently.
If I said "combat trackers always increase social interactions for everyone that uses them" that would be a factually incorrect statement.
I can state that I have seen increases in social interaction due to trackers, but I can't state it to always be the case.
The reverse is also true. Anyone stating that combat trackers reduce social interaction for people that use them is factually incorrect - even if their own personal experience has been exactly that.
This is the difference between subjective and objective, between opinion and fact. I hate it when this kind of thing happens as well.
The problem is, this is as much you and your friends fault as it is the people kicking you from the group or raid.
If you guys know you are not focused on being efficient, you should avoid joining groups with people that are focused on it. This has nothing to do with trackers, and is simply a case of diametrically opposed gameplay styles shouldn't attempt to get along.
If that means you get fewer groups and raids, that is just a result of the way you guys want to play the game.
I mean, if you guys had an RP event like a wedding or something, and I came along and started talking about real world politics or sport, you probably wouldn't want me around. At the very least, you would likely ignore this player (the RP equivlent of booting someone from the group).
This is just another example of people with different ways of playing and enjoying the game not being compatible with each other.
Know how you want to play, and only play with people that have a compatible gameplay style.
And you should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that - especially, the group should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that.
You don't really need to "improve". You just need to be able to defeat the challenges you encounter.
You don't rely on a combat tracker to do that, you use a combat tracker to assist you in doing that.
The whole issue you have with weakest link is a perfect example of ignoratio elenchi. As I have said to you in the past, if someone is of a predisposition to remove another player from a group for underperforming, they do not need a combat tracker to do so.
If your suggestion that we should not need a combat tracker to understand the strengths and weaknesses of those in our group or raid were indeed true, then this would only make the above even more obvious. If you can tell the strengths and weaknesses of people in your group either with or without a combat tracker, then you can spot the weakest link in your group. It is then up to that predisposition of the leader as to whether they boot that player or not.
If you wanted a game in which players weren't able to spot the weakest link in their group, then you would want a game where you can't see the strengths and weaknesses of those in your group or raid, not a game where it is blatantly obvious.
Who should to be the target audience?
We're still waiting for Steven (or maybe Bill Trost?) to tell us.
Since 'target audience' is going to be decided by design, not 'by whether or not the trackers are technically banned', then it comes back to what Dygz was saying. If the game is built so that the challenge level isn't one where the 'average person that knows how to get a parser' actually cares about it, then most likely, the sort of person who enjoys the part of the game that involves parser usage, won't be the target audience.
One more week to go...