Okay, good case for both sides.
I don't support DPS meters being implemented.
The min-max'ers will set the bar for what is "acceptable" damage compared to them, so I don't mind not having easy access to the info, just to slow down the meta.
I would say, focus on making each class bring something substantial to the group, so it's less about damage and more about diversity.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes, Atama, I want all that and more. I doubt we will get it in a PvX Game but I can hope. I do like to outperform others, and, often can once I get to grips with a Toon. It can be difficult to learn some fights but some fights aren't worth learning.
Sometimes it is better to train people (Which I do in PUG Raids) than to kick and replace people all the time. It hasn't been a case that a DPS Meter has caused the kicks, or, the replacements, but because people have had time constraints or people just do not listen to the warnings and continue to stand in AoE.
That’s what happened to us. Our guild lasted for years across multiple games. I joined it playing Lord of the Rings Online, and we later moved to World of Warcraft (and SW:TOR, and Rift, and The Secret World) so we were a close group. A number of them are still Facebook friends. We weren’t in the business of kicking people, we helped each other, and that’s what happened; we trained, changed our builds and gear, got better rotations and eventually won.
I am not requesting no skill be required, I am requesting that skill be required. You can have skill without a DPS Meter, its old school in fact. If a Raid Encounter requires a DPS Meter to complete I do not think it is a good Raid Design. Why would IS give us a Raid based on a DPS Meter when IS aren't giving us a DPS Meter? I do also appreciate Enrage Timers, but, again, we never used DPS Meters to tackle an Enrage Timer, we just had four modes 'Switch Tank', 'Light DPS', 'Nuke' and 'Hate Increase'.
As I said, we were in LotRO when I joined the guild. We also did end game raids there. Some of them were DPS races, where the enemy went berserk after awhile if you didn’t kill them fast enough. Without meters we had no tools to figure out what to do. That may have been on us but we really couldn’t begin to address the issues when we had no data to show us where the problems were. We kept trying but never succeeded. In WoW, we had the tools and used them to improve and eventually accomplished what we couldn’t in LotRO. As you said though, probably those raids were not appropriate for that game, you’ll get no argument from me.
It depends on specific Raid setups though - It never works to cloud communications so simple instructions are often the best. It is difficult for me to say how I would deal with an Ashes Raid because I haven't seen all the Classes let alone any of the Raids (Besides a Dragon and the Brood Queen).
This may be a big deal in Ashes or a non-issue. We’ll find out later. I will say what I’ve said before; some MMOs don’t need meters. I hope Ashes is one of them.
I heard there isn't going to be a damage meter allowed in this game. I think this is a mistake. Damage meters allow you to know how you're performing in comparison to other people of your class. Increasing my DPS is basically where I get all my enjoyment out of PvE encounters. Does anyone else feel this way?
No it's not a mistake. Sick to death of elitist asshat tools being used to trivialize other peoples gameplay to the point of harassment. Goodbye. Good riddance and about time.
I heard there isn't going to be a damage meter allowed in this game. I think this is a mistake. Damage meters allow you to know how you're performing in comparison to other people of your class. Increasing my DPS is basically where I get all my enjoyment out of PvE encounters. Does anyone else feel this way?
No it's not a mistake. Sick to death of elitist asshat tools being used to trivialize other peoples gameplay to the point of harassment. Goodbye. Good riddance and about time.
After reading this reply, I wounder who the real "toixc" player is....
I'm just going to point out, again, that without a tool to see stats you won't know that your class is objectively worse than someone else's.
That leaves the entire balancing act in the hands of the devs with ZERO player oversight.
In the other parts of the game, pvp for example, you will get rolled because your class is worse, and you still won't know why. Player skill can only overcome so much disadvantage before class disparity makes it impossible.
A game with zero oversight from the playerbase has the potential to become unfun very quickly.
I don't like damage meters, I don't like add-ons that basically handicap content. Let players teach by word of mouth, guides, and videos.
Metas are born and quickly degrade games because being aware of them usually makes most people feel like what they're doing isn't the 'correct' way or the most 'efficient' way. I know players can choose to ignore it, and not follow like 'sheep'.
However...
It's easily mitigated if we avoid fostering the idea that the game needs to be figured out from top to bottom as soon as possible with tools aiding in such endeavors. RPG's are meant to be immersive and fun - not doing things necessarily the 'correct' and most 'efficient' way. The correct and efficient way to meaningful game play is to leave things in the unknown sometimes.
Do easier content. Life doesn't award people for being bad. If you want to see the content, practice. "I want this promotion at work, but I don't have a college degree like everyone else." You should probably get a college degree. "I can't get a college degree because I'm not smart enough." You probably shouldn't do that job then.
I'm just going to point out, again, that without a tool to see stats you won't know that your class is objectively worse than someone else's.
That leaves the entire balancing act in the hands of the devs with ZERO player oversight.
In the other parts of the game, pvp for example, you will get rolled because your class is worse, and you still won't know why. Player skill can only overcome so much disadvantage before class disparity makes it impossible.
A game with zero oversight from the playerbase has the potential to become unfun very quickly.
Not sure if you're supposed to get rolled, but they don't balance 1 vs 1, so some classes will always have a disadvantage against others.
I don't like damage meters, I don't like add-ons that basically handicap content. Let players teach by word of mouth, guides, and videos.
Metas are born and quickly degrade games because being aware of them usually makes most people feel like what they're doing isn't the 'correct' way or the most 'efficient' way. I know players can choose to ignore it, and not follow like 'sheep'.
However...
It's easily mitigated if we avoid fostering the idea that the game needs to be figured out from top to bottom as soon as possible with tools aiding in such endeavors. RPG's are meant to be immersive and fun - not doing things necessarily the 'correct' and most 'efficient' way. The correct and efficient way to meaningful game play is to leave things in the unknown sometimes.
I believe add ons are like revealing a magic trick. Once you know what it's behind it loses its magic a bit.
I understand the plea from PvE players, but the game won't have instanced content to Raid, so I fail to see what use they can get of a meter when they need to build PvP stuff that might not do damage, but other things.
Do easier content. Life doesn't award people for being bad. If you want to see the content, practice. "I want this promotion at work, but I don't have a college degree like everyone else." You should probably get a college degree. "I can't get a college degree because I'm not smart enough." You probably shouldn't do that job then.
I'm just going to point out, again, that without a tool to see stats you won't know that your class is objectively worse than someone else's.
That leaves the entire balancing act in the hands of the devs with ZERO player oversight.
In the other parts of the game, pvp for example, you will get rolled because your class is worse, and you still won't know why. Player skill can only overcome so much disadvantage before class disparity makes it impossible.
A game with zero oversight from the playerbase has the potential to become unfun very quickly.
Not sure if you're supposed to get rolled, but they don't balance 1 vs 1, so some classes will always have a disadvantage against others.
So are you willing to have an objectively worse class without hope of change because it relies all on the devs? You're not going to be limited to being worse than other players in just pvp. They will level faster, they will quest faster, they will see more of the game than you, quicker, and advance quicker. It trickles into every aspect of the game.
People forget that the game is not even out yet!! Guys when a game comes out brand new its better to be simplistic, maybe in the future we can talk about add-ons, but I prefer a clean game when it comes out.
Too much concerns about balancing a game thats not even in alpha.
So are you willing to have an objectively worse class without hope of change because it relies all on the devs? You're not going to be limited to being worse than other players in just pvp. They will level faster, they will quest faster, they will see more of the game than you, quicker, and advance quicker. It trickles into every aspect of the game.
The system is based around trinity and hard counters. You can soft the hard counter through secondary class and augments, but some classes at equal footing on skills/gear WILL lose against other.
I don't mind this, why would I? It's how the dev intended the game to be played.
Balancing in Ashes of Creation is "group focused".[10]
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[10] – Steven Sharif
Certain secondary archetypes are capable of "bridging the gap" between their counterpart.[11]
Certain archetypes are capable of moving the gap between their counterpart per-se. If I am a Tank archetype and a Mage is my counter, I can take a Mage secondary and kind of bridge the divide slightly; and then move my identity that direction ever so slightly.[11] – Steven Sharif
So are you willing to have an objectively worse class without hope of change because it relies all on the devs? You're not going to be limited to being worse than other players in just pvp. They will level faster, they will quest faster, they will see more of the game than you, quicker, and advance quicker. It trickles into every aspect of the game.
The system is based around trinity and hard counters. You can soft the hard counter through secondary class and augments, but some classes at equal footing on skills/gear WILL lose against other.
I don't mind this, why would I? It's how the dev intended the game to be played.
Balancing in Ashes of Creation is "group focused".[10]
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[10] – Steven Sharif
Certain secondary archetypes are capable of "bridging the gap" between their counterpart.[11]
Certain archetypes are capable of moving the gap between their counterpart per-se. If I am a Tank archetype and a Mage is my counter, I can take a Mage secondary and kind of bridge the divide slightly; and then move my identity that direction ever so slightly.[11] – Steven Sharif
this is funny because with that level of detail and balance that goes into each class, there's literally no way classes are going to be balanced well
So are you willing to have an objectively worse class without hope of change because it relies all on the devs? You're not going to be limited to being worse than other players in just pvp. They will level faster, they will quest faster, they will see more of the game than you, quicker, and advance quicker. It trickles into every aspect of the game.
The system is based around trinity and hard counters. You can soft the hard counter through secondary class and augments, but some classes at equal footing on skills/gear WILL lose against other.
I don't mind this, why would I? It's how the dev intended the game to be played.
Balancing in Ashes of Creation is "group focused".[10]
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[10] – Steven Sharif
Certain secondary archetypes are capable of "bridging the gap" between their counterpart.[11]
Certain archetypes are capable of moving the gap between their counterpart per-se. If I am a Tank archetype and a Mage is my counter, I can take a Mage secondary and kind of bridge the divide slightly; and then move my identity that direction ever so slightly.[11] – Steven Sharif
this is funny because with that level of detail and balance that goes into each class, there's literally no way classes are going to be balanced well
Because they will plan 8 vs 8, not 1 vs 1, so you can't expect and shouldn't expect balance between classes. That's my take.
The game will be balanced on a 8 vs 8 having each one of the archetypes
So are you willing to have an objectively worse class without hope of change because it relies all on the devs? You're not going to be limited to being worse than other players in just pvp. They will level faster, they will quest faster, they will see more of the game than you, quicker, and advance quicker. It trickles into every aspect of the game.
The system is based around trinity and hard counters. You can soft the hard counter through secondary class and augments, but some classes at equal footing on skills/gear WILL lose against other.
I don't mind this, why would I? It's how the dev intended the game to be played.
Balancing in Ashes of Creation is "group focused".[10]
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[10] – Steven Sharif
Certain secondary archetypes are capable of "bridging the gap" between their counterpart.[11]
Certain archetypes are capable of moving the gap between their counterpart per-se. If I am a Tank archetype and a Mage is my counter, I can take a Mage secondary and kind of bridge the divide slightly; and then move my identity that direction ever so slightly.[11] – Steven Sharif
this is funny because with that level of detail and balance that goes into each class, there's literally no way classes are going to be balanced well
Because they will plan 8 vs 8, not 1 vs 1, so you can't expect and shouldn't expect balance between classes. That's my take.
The game will be balanced on a 8 vs 8 having each one of the archetypes
games already try this and it's still very difficult to get right
Lack of dps meter will hide bad players won't it? You can have no idea how to play your class and your rotation be completely broken but because you are friends with the guild leader everyone else is the group will be carrying that bad player and not have a clue. How is that fun for anyone but the bad player?
I just don't understand your guys fear of a DPS meter. Have you guys been kicked from a group because of bad DPS? I've never kicked someone from my raid group because of bad DPS. I've never been kicked from a raid group because of bad DPS.
When I go into a raid encounter that is easy enough to where optimal DPS doesn't matter, I still want the DPS meter. I want to be able to see how I'm doing compared to the other players. If everyones pulling 5k DPS and I'm pulling 2k DPS, I want to know so I can improve.
People are always going to bar others from joining dependent on some standard. If there's no DPS meter, they're just going to say you're not allowed to come because you're items aren't high enough level, you don't have the achievement of killing this boss, no one has ever heard of you, or you don't have the right food buff. There's always something. No DPS meter isn't going to change that.
No DPS meter does ensure there is no reason to strive for a better rotation. No reason to try to optimize your build. No reason to put any risk/reward toward your character. The best part is, even if you do try to optimize your character, there is no way of even telling.
Ever played a class and don't get accepted to groups because you AOE numbers suck? That the exact reason, they don't want DPS meters. Its makes a meta and kills classes that don't perform as #1 and generally makes it toxic experience. "HaHa YoU pLaY ThAt sHiT ClAsS"
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Potato BasketMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I just don't understand your guys fear of a DPS meter. Have you guys been kicked from a group because of bad DPS? I've never kicked someone from my raid group because of bad DPS. I've never been kicked from a raid group because of bad DPS.
When I go into a raid encounter that is easy enough to where optimal DPS doesn't matter, I still want the DPS meter. I want to be able to see how I'm doing compared to the other players. If everyones pulling 5k DPS and I'm pulling 2k DPS, I want to know so I can improve.
People are always going to bar others from joining dependent on some standard. If there's no DPS meter, they're just going to say you're not allowed to come because you're items aren't high enough level, you don't have the achievement of killing this boss, no one has ever heard of you, or you don't have the right food buff. There's always something. No DPS meter isn't going to change that.
No DPS meter does ensure there is no reason to strive for a better rotation. No reason to try to optimize your build. No reason to put any risk/reward toward your character. The best part is, even if you do try to optimize your character, there is no way of even telling.
Ever played a class and don't get accepted to groups because you AOE numbers suck? That the exact reason, they don't want DPS meters. Its makes a meta and kills classes that don't perform as #1 and generally makes it toxic experience. "HaHa YoU pLaY ThAt sHiT ClAsS"
I'm not pro dps meters but how the lack of them would make a difference?
Players pretty easily would figure out which classes are less dps efficient and hit you with the same toxicity
We raided the first 10+ years of MOORPGs and cleared content without meters. So definitely not anything that is needed.
I love this kind of stupid reasoning.
I can do the same too:
Mankind lived their first few thousands of years without electricity. So definitely not anything that is needed.
I mean, sure, if you like to stay at stone age, be my guest, but don't drag down people who want to improve/optimize with your own ideals that a dpsmeter is not needed, you're free to not use it if you don't want it, as many people said, it's very unlikely that you'll be kicked out of a group because your dps is too low, unless you're doing hardcore endgame content that requires optimization obviously, and in that case, well, it's better for the people you're running it with that they know where the problem comes from, so that they can either replace you or help you fix it, rather than making everyone waste days or weeks of tries without knowing where the problem comes from.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Lack of dps meter will hide bad players won't it? You can have no idea how to play your class and your rotation be completely broken but because you are friends with the guild leader everyone else is the group will be carrying that bad player and not have a clue. How is that fun for anyone but the bad player?
If someone is that bad it’ll be obvious without a meter.
A meter is useful if someone is really trying and seems to be doing everything right, but they just have something wrong that’s not obvious but is holding them back.
We raided the first 10+ years of MOORPGs and cleared content without meters. So definitely not anything that is needed.
I love this kind of stupid reasoning.
I can do the same too:
Mankind lived their first few thousands of years without electricity. So definitely not anything that is needed.
I mean, sure, if you like to stay at stone age, be my guest, but don't drag down people who want to improve/optimize with your own ideals that a dpsmeter is not needed, you're free to not use it if you don't want it, as many people said, it's very unlikely that you'll be kicked out of a group because your dps is too low, unless you're doing hardcore endgame content that requires optimization obviously, and in that case, well, it's better for the people you're running it with that they know where the problem comes from, so that they can either replace you or help you fix it, rather than making everyone waste days or weeks of tries without knowing where the problem comes from.
My "argument" against meters is the fact that forces developer to consider the potential of min maxing to extremes, having to make extremely hard content, otherwise the hardcore PvE raids will find it "easy".
Meanwhile the gap between the top and casuals will widen, forcing developers to create more content that will be completed by less people.
When the focus of the game is mostly around PvP, player/guilds/node friction than hardcore PvE raiding, I find it hard to justify the amount of resources needed to sustain hardcore players expectations, which we know are never satisfied.
Since they aren't allowing addons in the game, maybe they can set it up so that you can get your own personal metrics without having to display it to the group. I personally am not the biggest fan of having to compare dps with others but really like the aspects of self improvement that comes from being able to optimize my own rotations.
It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned.
It’s just wild
My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.
Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy.
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I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels.
A lot of people seem to think that it's impossible to figure out an efficient dps rotation or that theorycrafting somehow becomes impossible if the dps meters get taken away.
Experiment, learn, improve. If you can't figure out how to play your archetype/class efficiently, I can tell you there will certainly be heaps of content available come launch detailing how to get the most out of your class when the game launches, by people who are eager and willing to take the time and break a few eggs.
I'd make an analogy about dps meters being a cheat sheet for a test you hadn't studied for, but that''d probably get wordy. Instead, I'll say this: You can choose to either believe it's going to be ok, or that it isn't, and everything is ruined forever.
No it's not a mistake. Sick to death of elitist asshat tools being used to trivialize other peoples gameplay to the point of harassment. Goodbye. Good riddance and about time.
Ever played a class and don't get accepted to groups because you AOE numbers suck? That the exact reason, they don't want DPS meters. Its makes a meta and kills classes that don't perform as #1 and generally makes it toxic experience. "HaHa YoU pLaY ThAt sHiT ClAsS"
Without a DPS meter, players will still exclude specific classes, but rather than being based on factual evidence, it will be based on assumptions.
You may well know how to play your class better than anyone else in the game thinks the class is able to be played, but if you can't convince people that the class is better than they think, there are still people that will exclude you based purely on your class.
I'm not saying they are right to do that - I am simply saying they will do that.
My "argument" against meters is the fact that forces developer to consider the potential of min maxing to extremes, having to make extremely hard content, otherwise the hardcore PvE raids will find it "easy".
Meanwhile the gap between the top and casuals will widen, forcing developers to create more content that will be completed by less people.
When the focus of the game is mostly around PvP, player/guilds/node friction than hardcore PvE raiding, I find it hard to justify the amount of resources needed to sustain hardcore players expectations, which we know are never satisfied.
@BlackBrony regardless of whether a combat tracker is present or not (there will be several), players will dissect the games combat system down to the smallest component possible. Developers have to develop every system in every game with the expectation that players will at some point come to understand it.
Even if all I have to work with is my own characters HP pool, I'll likely work out more about the games combat system in alpha than most players will work out in 10 years.
It really doesn't take a combat tracker to min/max.
As to your comments on balance - I would be wary of any game that doesn't allow you to check their working in some manner. Archeage didn't really have an easy way to do this (though I had a working combat tracker for that game), and it's classes were among the worst balanced in the genre (due to having a combat tracker running for years in the game, I am somewhat uniquely qualified to be able to say that).
Archeage also completely disproves the notion that not having combat trackers will mean there are no required classes - I have never seen a games playerbase stick as closely to what builds and classes are acceptable as the playerbase of Archeage did. People were literally too scared to try out a different build, as there was no real way to test it out objectively, so every time they grouped up with a new person, they would get laughed at for their build/class.
This is the future we can all expect in Ashes if we don't have open access to a combat tracker in order to actually be able to prove that a new build is viable.
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ogreMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2020
No add-ons or DPS meters is a very good thing imo. Class balance will likely change fairly often as patches roll out anyway, and will probably take years to properly balance. Regardless, it will likely be only a few weeks or months before the "hardcore" audience works out optimal builds and determines which classes/builds are the "best" for each given patch. I would much rather that a tight guild with good communication is able to succeed in dungeions, raids, and PvP regardless of whether or not they are playing the optimal race/class/build.
I don't think that a vast majority of players are trying to be world-first raiders or the top DPS on their server. I would rather not know the exact numbers even if it means that my class or build is sub-optimal. Simply progressing a character through trial and error is often great fun, i believe that that kind of gameplay is more in alignment with the vision behind an MMORPG like this one. It's about the journey not the destination.
I would much rather that a tight guild with good communication is able to succeed in dungeions, raids, and PvP regardless of whether or not they are playing the optimal race/class/build.
As would I, but this is a function of the design of the content, not of the presence or absence of a combat tracker.
I don't think that a vast majority of players are trying to be world-first raiders or the top DPS on their server. I would rather not know the exact numbers even if means that my class or build is sub-optimal.
I agree, and this is why I have been suggesting for a long time now that this tool be restricted to only the people that value it's use, while other players can opt to chose an option that is of more value to you.
That way, those that know how to make good use of combat trackers (for things like raiding - but also things like designing builds to post for the playerbase, and peer reviewing the combat system for Intrepid) have access to them, and those that do not want them do not need to deal with them.
It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned.
It’s just wild
My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.
Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy.
---
I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels.
I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died.
All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
@BlackBrony regardless of whether a combat tracker is present or not (there will be several), players will dissect the games combat system down to the smallest component possible. Developers have to develop every system in every game with the expectation that players will at some point come to understand it.
Even if all I have to work with is my own characters HP pool, I'll likely work out more about the games combat system in alpha than most players will work out in 10 years.
It really doesn't take a combat tracker to min/max.
As to your comments on balance - I would be wary of any game that doesn't allow you to check their working in some manner. Archeage didn't really have an easy way to do this (though I had a working combat tracker for that game), and it's classes were among the worst balanced in the genre (due to having a combat tracker running for years in the game, I am somewhat uniquely qualified to be able to say that).
Archeage also completely disproves the notion that not having combat trackers will mean there are no required classes - I have never seen a games playerbase stick as closely to what builds and classes are acceptable as the playerbase of Archeage did. People were literally too scared to try out a different build, as there was no real way to test it out objectively, so every time they grouped up with a new person, they would get laughed at for their build/class.
This is the future we can all expect in Ashes if we don't have open access to a combat tracker in order to actually be able to prove that a new build is viable.
Your first 3 paragraphs are spot on.
Man you hit me hard with the Archeage comment though. That game really was unbalanced to another level. But I don't think that will happen with Ashes regardless of combat tracker or not.
Its not hard to understand what should be able to counter what and who should die to who relatively easily. Assuming you are a knowledgeable player... Where Archeage failed was the fact Trion had no ability to control the balance in the game.
You are right about people not wanting to try new classes though. I am curious to see how this plays out and I hope that age old comment of "oh but my utility skills" actually plays a serious role in this game. Or why else would someone be a tank/bard.
It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned.
It’s just wild
My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.
Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy.
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I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels.
I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died.
All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
I still disagree that you require logs and addons to analyze a fight, and frankly (my personal opinion) guilds that cannot figure out on their own when agro was lost, who stood wrong, when healing was off on a target, etc. and need an addon for this ... they are the problem not the game.
Anyway, now that it is confirmed that there will be combat logs, you can analyze the information after the encounter. I hope this will please all the pro-meter folks
Regarding trial and error, trial and error is a time investment, it is not impossible. It just requires you to know your class inside out, figure out what works and doesn't and what gear compliments the class, it's skills and it's combat style. Here again (in my personal opinion) if anyone claims this is ONLY possible with a tracker then it's not the game but the player.
I do hope that and as said before: combat logs will help people after the encounter, and it seems to be a middle ground that everyone should be ok with.
Comments
I don't support DPS meters being implemented.
The min-max'ers will set the bar for what is "acceptable" damage compared to them, so I don't mind not having easy access to the info, just to slow down the meta.
I would say, focus on making each class bring something substantial to the group, so it's less about damage and more about diversity.
As I said, we were in LotRO when I joined the guild. We also did end game raids there. Some of them were DPS races, where the enemy went berserk after awhile if you didn’t kill them fast enough. Without meters we had no tools to figure out what to do. That may have been on us but we really couldn’t begin to address the issues when we had no data to show us where the problems were. We kept trying but never succeeded. In WoW, we had the tools and used them to improve and eventually accomplished what we couldn’t in LotRO. As you said though, probably those raids were not appropriate for that game, you’ll get no argument from me.
This may be a big deal in Ashes or a non-issue. We’ll find out later. I will say what I’ve said before; some MMOs don’t need meters. I hope Ashes is one of them.
No it's not a mistake. Sick to death of elitist asshat tools being used to trivialize other peoples gameplay to the point of harassment. Goodbye. Good riddance and about time.
After reading this reply, I wounder who the real "toixc" player is....
That leaves the entire balancing act in the hands of the devs with ZERO player oversight.
In the other parts of the game, pvp for example, you will get rolled because your class is worse, and you still won't know why. Player skill can only overcome so much disadvantage before class disparity makes it impossible.
A game with zero oversight from the playerbase has the potential to become unfun very quickly.
Metas are born and quickly degrade games because being aware of them usually makes most people feel like what they're doing isn't the 'correct' way or the most 'efficient' way. I know players can choose to ignore it, and not follow like 'sheep'.
However...
It's easily mitigated if we avoid fostering the idea that the game needs to be figured out from top to bottom as soon as possible with tools aiding in such endeavors. RPG's are meant to be immersive and fun - not doing things necessarily the 'correct' and most 'efficient' way. The correct and efficient way to meaningful game play is to leave things in the unknown sometimes.
Not sure if you're supposed to get rolled, but they don't balance 1 vs 1, so some classes will always have a disadvantage against others.
I believe add ons are like revealing a magic trick. Once you know what it's behind it loses its magic a bit.
I understand the plea from PvE players, but the game won't have instanced content to Raid, so I fail to see what use they can get of a meter when they need to build PvP stuff that might not do damage, but other things.
So are you willing to have an objectively worse class without hope of change because it relies all on the devs? You're not going to be limited to being worse than other players in just pvp. They will level faster, they will quest faster, they will see more of the game than you, quicker, and advance quicker. It trickles into every aspect of the game.
Too much concerns about balancing a game thats not even in alpha.
The system is based around trinity and hard counters. You can soft the hard counter through secondary class and augments, but some classes at equal footing on skills/gear WILL lose against other.
I don't mind this, why would I? It's how the dev intended the game to be played.
this is funny because with that level of detail and balance that goes into each class, there's literally no way classes are going to be balanced well
Because they will plan 8 vs 8, not 1 vs 1, so you can't expect and shouldn't expect balance between classes. That's my take.
The game will be balanced on a 8 vs 8 having each one of the archetypes
games already try this and it's still very difficult to get right
Ever played a class and don't get accepted to groups because you AOE numbers suck? That the exact reason, they don't want DPS meters. Its makes a meta and kills classes that don't perform as #1 and generally makes it toxic experience. "HaHa YoU pLaY ThAt sHiT ClAsS"
I'm not pro dps meters but how the lack of them would make a difference?
Players pretty easily would figure out which classes are less dps efficient and hit you with the same toxicity
I love this kind of stupid reasoning.
I can do the same too:
Mankind lived their first few thousands of years without electricity. So definitely not anything that is needed.
I mean, sure, if you like to stay at stone age, be my guest, but don't drag down people who want to improve/optimize with your own ideals that a dpsmeter is not needed, you're free to not use it if you don't want it, as many people said, it's very unlikely that you'll be kicked out of a group because your dps is too low, unless you're doing hardcore endgame content that requires optimization obviously, and in that case, well, it's better for the people you're running it with that they know where the problem comes from, so that they can either replace you or help you fix it, rather than making everyone waste days or weeks of tries without knowing where the problem comes from.
A meter is useful if someone is really trying and seems to be doing everything right, but they just have something wrong that’s not obvious but is holding them back.
My "argument" against meters is the fact that forces developer to consider the potential of min maxing to extremes, having to make extremely hard content, otherwise the hardcore PvE raids will find it "easy".
Meanwhile the gap between the top and casuals will widen, forcing developers to create more content that will be completed by less people.
When the focus of the game is mostly around PvP, player/guilds/node friction than hardcore PvE raiding, I find it hard to justify the amount of resources needed to sustain hardcore players expectations, which we know are never satisfied.
My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.
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I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels.
Experiment, learn, improve. If you can't figure out how to play your archetype/class efficiently, I can tell you there will certainly be heaps of content available come launch detailing how to get the most out of your class when the game launches, by people who are eager and willing to take the time and break a few eggs.
I'd make an analogy about dps meters being a cheat sheet for a test you hadn't studied for, but that''d probably get wordy. Instead, I'll say this: You can choose to either believe it's going to be ok, or that it isn't, and everything is ruined forever.
This argument seems to be one where you are attempting to combat perceved exclusionary behavior with further exclusionary behavior.
This isn't an overly good argument to make, and I hope you have better reasoning than this.
@SgtKeeneye
Without a DPS meter, players will still exclude specific classes, but rather than being based on factual evidence, it will be based on assumptions.
You may well know how to play your class better than anyone else in the game thinks the class is able to be played, but if you can't convince people that the class is better than they think, there are still people that will exclude you based purely on your class.
I'm not saying they are right to do that - I am simply saying they will do that.
@BlackBrony regardless of whether a combat tracker is present or not (there will be several), players will dissect the games combat system down to the smallest component possible. Developers have to develop every system in every game with the expectation that players will at some point come to understand it.
Even if all I have to work with is my own characters HP pool, I'll likely work out more about the games combat system in alpha than most players will work out in 10 years.
It really doesn't take a combat tracker to min/max.
As to your comments on balance - I would be wary of any game that doesn't allow you to check their working in some manner. Archeage didn't really have an easy way to do this (though I had a working combat tracker for that game), and it's classes were among the worst balanced in the genre (due to having a combat tracker running for years in the game, I am somewhat uniquely qualified to be able to say that).
Archeage also completely disproves the notion that not having combat trackers will mean there are no required classes - I have never seen a games playerbase stick as closely to what builds and classes are acceptable as the playerbase of Archeage did. People were literally too scared to try out a different build, as there was no real way to test it out objectively, so every time they grouped up with a new person, they would get laughed at for their build/class.
This is the future we can all expect in Ashes if we don't have open access to a combat tracker in order to actually be able to prove that a new build is viable.
I don't think that a vast majority of players are trying to be world-first raiders or the top DPS on their server. I would rather not know the exact numbers even if it means that my class or build is sub-optimal. Simply progressing a character through trial and error is often great fun, i believe that that kind of gameplay is more in alignment with the vision behind an MMORPG like this one. It's about the journey not the destination.
That way, those that know how to make good use of combat trackers (for things like raiding - but also things like designing builds to post for the playerbase, and peer reviewing the combat system for Intrepid) have access to them, and those that do not want them do not need to deal with them.
I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died.
All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
Your first 3 paragraphs are spot on.
Man you hit me hard with the Archeage comment though. That game really was unbalanced to another level. But I don't think that will happen with Ashes regardless of combat tracker or not.
Its not hard to understand what should be able to counter what and who should die to who relatively easily. Assuming you are a knowledgeable player... Where Archeage failed was the fact Trion had no ability to control the balance in the game.
You are right about people not wanting to try new classes though. I am curious to see how this plays out and I hope that age old comment of "oh but my utility skills" actually plays a serious role in this game. Or why else would someone be a tank/bard.
I still disagree that you require logs and addons to analyze a fight, and frankly (my personal opinion) guilds that cannot figure out on their own when agro was lost, who stood wrong, when healing was off on a target, etc. and need an addon for this ... they are the problem not the game.
Anyway, now that it is confirmed that there will be combat logs, you can analyze the information after the encounter. I hope this will please all the pro-meter folks
Regarding trial and error, trial and error is a time investment, it is not impossible. It just requires you to know your class inside out, figure out what works and doesn't and what gear compliments the class, it's skills and it's combat style. Here again (in my personal opinion) if anyone claims this is ONLY possible with a tracker then it's not the game but the player.
I do hope that and as said before: combat logs will help people after the encounter, and it seems to be a middle ground that everyone should be ok with.