That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.
👍
Hi Steven,
I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?
I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?
Thanks
Hello friend,
Yes there are combat logs
So just to clarify @Steven Sharif the combat logs will reflect only the individual's output or also that of the group?
In the case of the group, there is no difference between a meter and these logs. You can easily just use a log tool to analyze the information.
Thank you in advance for your reply
If it is the individual information only, combat trackers will just be run on servers that all members of the raid need to join.
The end result is the same as if the suggestion I made months ago were enacted.
Let's be honest now, having group combat logs would pretty much give everything they need for their meter.
So you got what you wanted
Let's celebrate hardcore guilds that cannot figure things out with a meter
If it was up to me, I would prefer no combat logs but just the suggestion we had earlier for guild leaders/officers.
Ya again, instead of party exclusion, now you have guild exclusion. You said "friends" thinking you meant real life friends. I'm assuming that people in your guild are'nt all real life friends. I would suggest that if you thinkt heir damage doesn't pass the eye test , instead of g kicking talk to them with constructive criticism and try to find the reason behind the lack of damage.
As a community I would like to see us reach out and help each instead of ghosting and ignoring people like the MMO cumminity has gone lately. Social skills need a comeback.
are mutually exclusive, if we assume that the common understanding of combat logs holds true in this case.
I find it hard to believe that there would be a drastic 180° turn on this topic in less than a day.
My assumption is that Steven doesn’t want some meter announcing to everyone how much damage you are doing. But if you want to go through the trouble of taking the data, parsing it, and figuring out what happened it’s okay.
I’m also uncertain if combat logs show what everyone did or just you. I assume the latter, in which case you can use the logs to judge your own performance but not to judge others.
I wonder if in a cooperative setting (like a guild doing content together) if it will be possible for everyone to send their combat logs voluntarily to a person to evaluate them so they can get help about how to improve.
Most MMOs have Combat Logs, most MMOs do not have DPS Meters inbuilt. There are also laxed API Rules which enable easier integration of UI Mods, DPS Meters and Resource Locators. If Steven does not want Third Party Applications to run with the API then it is Steven's decision. What if I as a Bard refuse to DPS Buff a player and instead focus on specific players so someone tops the DPS Meter?
Abuses of power should not be enabled. As a Bard I should be active and Buff all people in a Raid. We do not know how effective Bards will be, but, it could be Bard Buffs which will dictate DPS Output for a Raid and not simply min/maxed characters.
are mutually exclusive, if we assume that the common understanding of combat logs holds true in this case.
I find it hard to believe that there would be a drastic 180° turn on this topic in less than a day.
My assumption is that Steven doesn’t want some meter announcing to everyone how much damage you are doing. But if you want to go through the trouble of taking the data, parsing it, and figuring out what happened it’s okay.
I’m also uncertain if combat logs show what everyone did or just you. I assume the latter, in which case you can use the logs to judge your own performance but not to judge others.
I wonder if in a cooperative setting (like a guild doing content together) if it will be possible for everyone to send their combat logs voluntarily to a person to evaluate them so they can get help about how to improve.
If there are combat logs as we understand them (even if those logs are self only) then it would take maybe 15 minutes for someone to write a plugin for Advanced Combat Tracker to work with Ashes - and that plugin can then be distributed freely.
This means there will be a fully functioning combat tracker the day we have access to these logs.
And yes, everyone connecting to a server absolutely will be a thing in raids.
This was a base assumption of what will be needed that both groups of people I know that were working on a combat tracker for Ashes had.
The complexity of the task depends on how many walls they put in place. But it isn't impossible. But if they are making a combat log self only then why not make a combat meter that is self only? That just aggregates that information into a chart. There are different ways to approach the issue than a blanket "no".
If the log is self only, then you make a piece of software that runs on a central "server" (the host computer) and everyone sends their logs (via the software automatically) to that host who then redistributes the compiled data back out.
The end result is more effort for both Intrepid (who has the data anyway and has to actively try to hide it) and those who are writing the tools for the community.
But since Steve said he wants to avoid 3rd party i assume then the data wont be output to a log FILE but just be a tab in the chat window (like how other games have it). That's fine too, but that data is in a memory buffer on your computer somewhere.. someone will find it. And encrypting that data will be a lot of effort to have the game decrypt it later for someone to crack the encryption and get the data anyway.
i am 100% fine if they want to make it a "my group / raid only" exportable detailed combat log that then other people can analyze as they see fit, but can't be used to shame others in game.
You talk about guilds shaming and excluding you but do you want to be in a guild that would do that anyway? if the people you are guilded with a meter shamers do you really want to be IN that guild?
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You talk about guilds shaming and excluding you but do you want to be in a guild that would do that anyway? if the people you are guilded with a meter shamers do you really want to be IN that guild?
This, totally. I’ve seen these “hardcore” guilds and avoid them. If you don’t want to be judged and pushed don’t join them.
But since Steve said he wants to avoid 3rd party i assume then the data wont be output to a log FILE but just be a tab in the chat window (like how other games have it). That's fine too, but that data is in a memory buffer on your computer somewhere.. someone will find it. And encrypting that data will be a lot of effort to have the game decrypt it later for someone to crack the encryption and get the data anyway.
Even if the information is completely encripted, making pulling it directly from the ram impossible slightly harder, one of the systems that has been in development for a combat tracker for Ashes is planning on simply pulling the data directly from the screen.
If the data exists in chat text form, a combat tracker for it will also exist.
Honestly i dont care either way. It has positives and negatives and i havent played a game without one in forever so im excited to see how it feels again.
I feel with everything we've seen AoC is a more hardcore variant to MMORPGs and although I believe the damage meter would be useful to more casual players in general, it would take away from the overall design. But that's just my opinion, I do see valid points from those saying it should be implemented.
You talk about guilds shaming and excluding you but do you want to be in a guild that would do that anyway? if the people you are guilded with a meter shamers do you really want to be IN that guild?
This, totally. I’ve seen these “hardcore” guilds and avoid them. If you don’t want to be judged and pushed don’t join them.
I "am" those hardcore guilds, but I don't judge, I attempt to help.
Well, to tell the truth there's always a barrier for some people. The bad part about DPS meters isn't the system per se but the people that surround it and display shameful behavior because of it, especially on non-premade scenarios where you don't even know the people that you are cursing for DPS thingies.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
Well, to tell the truth there's always a barrier for some people. The bad part about DPS meters isn't the system per se but the people that surround it and display shameful behavior because of it, especially on non-premade scenarios where you don't even know the people that you are cursing for DPS thingies.
This is why you make it so that combat trackers can only be used on people in your guild.
Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noanni articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️
This makes me the big sad. I will still try the game because I love MMOs, but this makes me worried. I'll go in with an open mind, and hope you prove me wrong.
Imagine not playing an amazing game because it does not have a feature that shows a number on your screen telling if you are 'good' or 'bad'.
Imagine not being able to read. Oh wait, you don't have to imagine that.
You talk about guilds shaming and excluding you but do you want to be in a guild that would do that anyway? if the people you are guilded with a meter shamers do you really want to be IN that guild?
This, totally. I’ve seen these “hardcore” guilds and avoid them. If you don’t want to be judged and pushed don’t join them.
I "am" those hardcore guilds, but I don't judge, I attempt to help.
It's far more productive.
I've literally never been in a guild where I've been benched for having low DPS. I've been bottom DPS while progressing through mythic content in WoW without fear of being benched.
The only time you get benched is if you're FAR below average. If everyone on average is pulling 80-40k DPS, and you're pulling 20k DPS. Yes, You will get benched, but honestly, you deserve to get benched.
Why do you expect 19 other players to carry you through content while you under perform? You're the toxic player in this situation not the 19 other people. You're the snowflake everyone is always complaining about. Practice, get better and contribute to the group instead of hold them back.
You should feel bad that you're the reason 19 other people can't down the boss, but the problem is, in your world, they can tell you're holding them back. That mindset is the reason every MMO fails.
Hopefully, the content in AoC will be classic Wow levels of easy, so the under performing players don't matter.
You've just singled out the twentieth player for low DPS and claim 19 others can't complete the content because of 1 player?
I would blame the raid as a whole, because, Raids aren't always about DPS. Do you refer to a point when a Boss has 60k Health left when the Boss wipes the raid, or just generally want to bad mouth low DPSers at any point. I do not see how a player with 20k Damage Done should be penalised in this manner. It would only mean 19 other players would need to do less than 4k extra DPS in total, but of course, the elitist Min/Maxers only want to top the charts, not actually perform to the benefit of all in a Raid Group.
Thanks for the behind the scenes look at a DPS Meter Challenge.
You talk about guilds shaming and excluding you but do you want to be in a guild that would do that anyway? if the people you are guilded with a meter shamers do you really want to be IN that guild?
This, totally. I’ve seen these “hardcore” guilds and avoid them. If you don’t want to be judged and pushed don’t join them.
I "am" those hardcore guilds, but I don't judge, I attempt to help.
It's far more productive.
I've literally never been in a guild where I've been benched for having low DPS. I've been bottom DPS while progressing through mythic content in WoW without fear of being benched.
The only time you get benched is if you're FAR below average. If everyone on average is pulling 80-40k DPS, and you're pulling 20k DPS. Yes, You will get benched, but honestly, you deserve to get benched.
Why do you expect 19 other players to carry you through content while you under perform? You're the toxic player in this situation not the 19 other people. You're the snowflake everyone is always complaining about. Practice, get better and contribute to the group instead of hold them back.
You should feel bad that you're the reason 19 other people can't down the boss, but the problem is, in your world, they can tell you're holding them back. That mindset is the reason every MMO fails.
Hopefully, the content in AoC will be classic Wow levels of easy, so the under performing players don't matter.
Put the effort. Yeah, what if you're bad? Some people are just bad.
What about content becoming too easy for people who use meters because they have min-maxed it to the extreme? And then demanding more challenging content.
And suddenly the other people who are not obsessed about it can't experience content because now min maxing is a requirement not something optional?
You've just singled out the twentieth player for low DPS and claim 19 others can't complete the content because of 1 player?
I would blame the raid as a whole, because, Raids aren't always about DPS. Do you refer to a point when a Boss has 60k Health left when the Boss wipes the raid, or just generally want to bad mouth low DPSers at any point. I do not see how a player with 20k Damage Done should be penalised in this manner. It would only mean 19 other players would need to do less than 4k extra DPS in total, but of course, the elitist Min/Maxers only want to top the charts, not actually perform to the benefit of all in a Raid Group.
Thanks for the behind the scenes look at a DPS Meter Challenge.
It's crazy to me that you walk into a raid and think to yourself, "I'm here, so now everyone else has to play better to carry me". "It's only 4k more on top of the already 20-60k they're doing more than me". "They got this, I CAN DOWN THIS BOSS"
I agree though if the content is easy enough that anyone can be carried through it, who cares if there is low dps.
The reason I ask is because I have done 2 Million Heals output and 20 k DPS in some Boss Fights. I see myself as Carrying the Raid, the Raid has never carried me. When I have DPS'd more and healed less, we do not clear the content.
It is not enough to simply have a DPS Meter and bench the lowest DPS. Raids should be complex affairs and as such blanket approaches can't be used. I could quibble and state 'I hate fools who stand in AoE and make me Heal through the damage instead of avoiding the damage which means I must heal and not DPS.' All because they want to stand there and continue DPS.
This is why I dislike DPS Meters and DPS Races to begin with. For a Player to maximise DPS other players have to maximise support. You either want the support or want to be face rolled because all you care for is DPS.
You talk about guilds shaming and excluding you but do you want to be in a guild that would do that anyway? if the people you are guilded with a meter shamers do you really want to be IN that guild?
This, totally. I’ve seen these “hardcore” guilds and avoid them. If you don’t want to be judged and pushed don’t join them.
I "am" those hardcore guilds, but I don't judge, I attempt to help.
It's far more productive.
I've literally never been in a guild where I've been benched for having low DPS. I've been bottom DPS while progressing through mythic content in WoW without fear of being benched.
The only time you get benched is if you're FAR below average. If everyone on average is pulling 80-40k DPS, and you're pulling 20k DPS. Yes, You will get benched, but honestly, you deserve to get benched.
Why do you expect 19 other players to carry you through content while you under perform? You're the toxic player in this situation not the 19 other people. You're the snowflake everyone is always complaining about. Practice, get better and contribute to the group instead of hold them back.
You should feel bad that you're the reason 19 other people can't down the boss, but the problem is, in your world, they can tell you're holding them back. That mindset is the reason every MMO fails.
Hopefully, the content in AoC will be classic Wow levels of easy, so the under performing players don't matter.
Put the effort. Yeah, what if you're bad? Some people are just bad.
What about content becoming too easy for people who use meters because they have min-maxed it to the extreme? And then demanding more challenging content.
And suddenly the other people who are not obsessed about it can't experience content because now min maxing is a requirement not something optional?
Do easier content. Life doesn't award people for being bad. If you want to see the content, practice. "I want this promotion at work, but I don't have a college degree like everyone else." You should probably get a college degree. "I can't get a college degree because I'm not smart enough." You probably shouldn't do that job then.
The reason I ask is because I have done 2 Million Heals output and 20 k DPS in some Boss Fights. I see myself as Carrying the Raid, the Raid has never carried me. When I have DPS'd more and healed less, we do not clear the content.
It is not enough to simply have a DPS Meter and bench the lowest DPS. Raids should be complex affairs and as such blanket approaches can't be used. I could quibble and state 'I hate fools who stand in AoE and make me Heal through the damage instead of avoiding the damage which means I must heal and not DPS.' All because they want to stand there and continue DPS.
This is why I dislike DPS Meters and DPS Races to begin with. For a Player to maximise DPS other players have to maximise support. You either want the support or want to be face rolled because all you care for is DPS.
Obviously not every encounter is about DPS. No one thinks that. If you get kicked from a group because you have low DPS, and it isn't a DPS problem, I'm sorry. In the situation where the wrong players are getting kicked, they're still not going to down the boss. That same person is also going to kick you because your spec isnt following the boss guide. He will kick you because you made a suggestion on how to down the boss.
You're pointing out a player issue, not a DPS meter issue. Players are going to get kicked from groups unjustly, regardless if theres a dps meter or not.
Yes, you can kick players as much as you want, but, you'll gain a reputation for kicking players and players will probably choose not to join future Raids, and word will spread, so friends of the kicked person will probably also not join the Raids.
In Ashes, I hope the Raids require movement, coordination and skill. Not a mindless approach to top charts and where any movement hinders 'The Best Deeps Rotations' and I want the Bosses to disrupt 'The Best Deeps Rotations' as much as physically possible. The good news is it seems unlikely Healers will be able to cover for stupidity due to Mana Constrictions and the fact Clerics aren't Heal Bots. I imagine we will see a shift in the balance of power away from Mindless Deeps, but, towards skilful players.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You've just singled out the twentieth player for low DPS and claim 19 others can't complete the content because of 1 player?
I would blame the raid as a whole, because, Raids aren't always about DPS. Do you refer to a point when a Boss has 60k Health left when the Boss wipes the raid, or just generally want to bad mouth low DPSers at any point. I do not see how a player with 20k Damage Done should be penalised in this manner. It would only mean 19 other players would need to do less than 4k extra DPS in total, but of course, the elitist Min/Maxers only want to top the charts, not actually perform to the benefit of all in a Raid Group.
Thanks for the behind the scenes look at a DPS Meter Challenge.
You’re acting like this is far-fetched but it’s not. I have been in that situation where myself and another DPS were not pulling our weight and the raid failed. Specifically it was this fight: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Deathbringer_Saurfang
Note that it does say in the article that the raid is explicitly a “DPS race”. Maybe Ashes won’t have content like this. Who knows? But people aren’t making things up, in many MMOs if you want to do end game raids all it takes is one person screwing up and you fail.
Another fight we got stuck on was Sindragosa, the second-to-last in the Icecrown Citadel. In that case it wasn’t a DPS thing or anything a meter would tell you at all, but we had one player who consistently could not take cover in one part of the fight and died. Taking the time to resurrect that player hurt us and without them we couldn’t finish. We found out later he always used the keyboard for all movements (even turning!) so he just couldn’t move fast enough. We helped him get used to using the mouse and got through it.
Yes, there are raids where everyone needs to be at their best or you won’t make it, and others can’t make up the slack for one person because they are already doing as much as they can. It’s “elitist” in the sense that they are trying to complete the hardest content in the game. It’s not “elitist” because they are unforgiving snobs; it’s the content that is unforgiving.
Yes, Atama, I want all that and more. I doubt we will get it in a PvX Game but I can hope. I do like to outperform others, and, often can once I get to grips with a Toon. It can be difficult to learn some fights but some fights aren't worth learning.
Sometimes it is better to train people (Which I do in PUG Raids) than to kick and replace people all the time. It hasn't been a case that a DPS Meter has caused the kicks, or, the replacements, but because people have had time constraints or people just do not listen to the warnings and continue to stand in AoE.
I am not requesting no skill be required, I am requesting that skill be required. You can have skill without a DPS Meter, its old school in fact. If a Raid Encounter requires a DPS Meter to complete I do not think it is a good Raid Design. Why would IS give us a Raid based on a DPS Meter when IS aren't giving us a DPS Meter? I do also appreciate Enrage Timers, but, again, we never used DPS Meters to tackle an Enrage Timer, we just had four modes 'Switch Tank', 'Light DPS', 'Nuke' and 'Hate Increase'.
It depends on specific Raid setups though - It never works to cloud communications so simple instructions are often the best. It is difficult for me to say how I would deal with an Ashes Raid because I haven't seen all the Classes let alone any of the Raids (Besides a Dragon and the Brood Queen).
I've read a lot of this and while I don't really care either way doesn't it just mean if there is no meter everything would be harder? I like it harder...
I've read a lot of this and while I don't really care either way doesn't it just mean if there is no meter everything would be harder? I like it harder...
it's because some people claim that a game doesn't function without a meter.
That they can not be good at the game without one.
Some claim that it's the only way they can optimize their class.
and then you got your group that thinks that Dps meters improve the community in a game.
Hopefully the most prevalent punishment leading to a boss wipe is badly positioning and incorrect party distribution throughout the encounter, rather than raw numbers. I speak this as a 85% DPS / 15% support player.
I suspect they're aiming for this, rendering DPS meters not that useful anyways.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
Hopefully the most prevalent punishment leading to a boss wipe is badly positioning and incorrect party distribution throughout the encounter, rather than raw numbers. I speak this as a 85% DPS / 15% support player.
I suspect they're aiming for this, rendering DPS meters not that useful anyways.
So do I, I prefer fights where it is more about tactics, movement, etc. even full a DPS stop is fun once and a while. then just be about let's pull out our bows and swords and smack this dragon down in 2 min.
Comments
Let's be honest now, having group combat logs would pretty much give everything they need for their meter.
So you got what you wanted
Let's celebrate hardcore guilds that cannot figure things out with a meter
If it was up to me, I would prefer no combat logs but just the suggestion we had earlier for guild leaders/officers.
As a community I would like to see us reach out and help each instead of ghosting and ignoring people like the MMO cumminity has gone lately. Social skills need a comeback.
and are mutually exclusive, if we assume that the common understanding of combat logs holds true in this case.
I find it hard to believe that there would be a drastic 180° turn on this topic in less than a day.
I’m also uncertain if combat logs show what everyone did or just you. I assume the latter, in which case you can use the logs to judge your own performance but not to judge others.
I wonder if in a cooperative setting (like a guild doing content together) if it will be possible for everyone to send their combat logs voluntarily to a person to evaluate them so they can get help about how to improve.
Abuses of power should not be enabled. As a Bard I should be active and Buff all people in a Raid. We do not know how effective Bards will be, but, it could be Bard Buffs which will dictate DPS Output for a Raid and not simply min/maxed characters.
If there are combat logs as we understand them (even if those logs are self only) then it would take maybe 15 minutes for someone to write a plugin for Advanced Combat Tracker to work with Ashes - and that plugin can then be distributed freely.
This means there will be a fully functioning combat tracker the day we have access to these logs.
And yes, everyone connecting to a server absolutely will be a thing in raids.
This was a base assumption of what will be needed that both groups of people I know that were working on a combat tracker for Ashes had.
If the log is self only, then you make a piece of software that runs on a central "server" (the host computer) and everyone sends their logs (via the software automatically) to that host who then redistributes the compiled data back out.
The end result is more effort for both Intrepid (who has the data anyway and has to actively try to hide it) and those who are writing the tools for the community.
But since Steve said he wants to avoid 3rd party i assume then the data wont be output to a log FILE but just be a tab in the chat window (like how other games have it). That's fine too, but that data is in a memory buffer on your computer somewhere.. someone will find it. And encrypting that data will be a lot of effort to have the game decrypt it later for someone to crack the encryption and get the data anyway.
i am 100% fine if they want to make it a "my group / raid only" exportable detailed combat log that then other people can analyze as they see fit, but can't be used to shame others in game.
You talk about guilds shaming and excluding you but do you want to be in a guild that would do that anyway? if the people you are guilded with a meter shamers do you really want to be IN that guild?
If the data exists in chat text form, a combat tracker for it will also exist.
I "am" those hardcore guilds, but I don't judge, I attempt to help.
It's far more productive.
I heard a bird ♫
This is why you make it so that combat trackers can only be used on people in your guild.
Literally, problem solved.
If someone is using DPS numbers to harasser other players, they automatically go into my ignore list.
Imagine not being able to read. Oh wait, you don't have to imagine that.
I've literally never been in a guild where I've been benched for having low DPS. I've been bottom DPS while progressing through mythic content in WoW without fear of being benched.
The only time you get benched is if you're FAR below average. If everyone on average is pulling 80-40k DPS, and you're pulling 20k DPS. Yes, You will get benched, but honestly, you deserve to get benched.
Why do you expect 19 other players to carry you through content while you under perform? You're the toxic player in this situation not the 19 other people. You're the snowflake everyone is always complaining about. Practice, get better and contribute to the group instead of hold them back.
You should feel bad that you're the reason 19 other people can't down the boss, but the problem is, in your world, they can tell you're holding them back. That mindset is the reason every MMO fails.
Hopefully, the content in AoC will be classic Wow levels of easy, so the under performing players don't matter.
I would blame the raid as a whole, because, Raids aren't always about DPS. Do you refer to a point when a Boss has 60k Health left when the Boss wipes the raid, or just generally want to bad mouth low DPSers at any point. I do not see how a player with 20k Damage Done should be penalised in this manner. It would only mean 19 other players would need to do less than 4k extra DPS in total, but of course, the elitist Min/Maxers only want to top the charts, not actually perform to the benefit of all in a Raid Group.
Thanks for the behind the scenes look at a DPS Meter Challenge.
Put the effort. Yeah, what if you're bad? Some people are just bad.
What about content becoming too easy for people who use meters because they have min-maxed it to the extreme? And then demanding more challenging content.
And suddenly the other people who are not obsessed about it can't experience content because now min maxing is a requirement not something optional?
It's crazy to me that you walk into a raid and think to yourself, "I'm here, so now everyone else has to play better to carry me". "It's only 4k more on top of the already 20-60k they're doing more than me". "They got this, I CAN DOWN THIS BOSS"
I agree though if the content is easy enough that anyone can be carried through it, who cares if there is low dps.
It is not enough to simply have a DPS Meter and bench the lowest DPS. Raids should be complex affairs and as such blanket approaches can't be used. I could quibble and state 'I hate fools who stand in AoE and make me Heal through the damage instead of avoiding the damage which means I must heal and not DPS.' All because they want to stand there and continue DPS.
This is why I dislike DPS Meters and DPS Races to begin with. For a Player to maximise DPS other players have to maximise support. You either want the support or want to be face rolled because all you care for is DPS.
Do easier content. Life doesn't award people for being bad. If you want to see the content, practice. "I want this promotion at work, but I don't have a college degree like everyone else." You should probably get a college degree. "I can't get a college degree because I'm not smart enough." You probably shouldn't do that job then.
Obviously not every encounter is about DPS. No one thinks that. If you get kicked from a group because you have low DPS, and it isn't a DPS problem, I'm sorry. In the situation where the wrong players are getting kicked, they're still not going to down the boss. That same person is also going to kick you because your spec isnt following the boss guide. He will kick you because you made a suggestion on how to down the boss.
You're pointing out a player issue, not a DPS meter issue. Players are going to get kicked from groups unjustly, regardless if theres a dps meter or not.
In Ashes, I hope the Raids require movement, coordination and skill. Not a mindless approach to top charts and where any movement hinders 'The Best Deeps Rotations' and I want the Bosses to disrupt 'The Best Deeps Rotations' as much as physically possible. The good news is it seems unlikely Healers will be able to cover for stupidity due to Mana Constrictions and the fact Clerics aren't Heal Bots. I imagine we will see a shift in the balance of power away from Mindless Deeps, but, towards skilful players.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Deathbringer_Saurfang
Note that it does say in the article that the raid is explicitly a “DPS race”. Maybe Ashes won’t have content like this. Who knows? But people aren’t making things up, in many MMOs if you want to do end game raids all it takes is one person screwing up and you fail.
Another fight we got stuck on was Sindragosa, the second-to-last in the Icecrown Citadel. In that case it wasn’t a DPS thing or anything a meter would tell you at all, but we had one player who consistently could not take cover in one part of the fight and died. Taking the time to resurrect that player hurt us and without them we couldn’t finish. We found out later he always used the keyboard for all movements (even turning!) so he just couldn’t move fast enough. We helped him get used to using the mouse and got through it.
Yes, there are raids where everyone needs to be at their best or you won’t make it, and others can’t make up the slack for one person because they are already doing as much as they can. It’s “elitist” in the sense that they are trying to complete the hardest content in the game. It’s not “elitist” because they are unforgiving snobs; it’s the content that is unforgiving.
Sometimes it is better to train people (Which I do in PUG Raids) than to kick and replace people all the time. It hasn't been a case that a DPS Meter has caused the kicks, or, the replacements, but because people have had time constraints or people just do not listen to the warnings and continue to stand in AoE.
I am not requesting no skill be required, I am requesting that skill be required. You can have skill without a DPS Meter, its old school in fact. If a Raid Encounter requires a DPS Meter to complete I do not think it is a good Raid Design. Why would IS give us a Raid based on a DPS Meter when IS aren't giving us a DPS Meter? I do also appreciate Enrage Timers, but, again, we never used DPS Meters to tackle an Enrage Timer, we just had four modes 'Switch Tank', 'Light DPS', 'Nuke' and 'Hate Increase'.
It depends on specific Raid setups though - It never works to cloud communications so simple instructions are often the best. It is difficult for me to say how I would deal with an Ashes Raid because I haven't seen all the Classes let alone any of the Raids (Besides a Dragon and the Brood Queen).
it's because some people claim that a game doesn't function without a meter.
That they can not be good at the game without one.
Some claim that it's the only way they can optimize their class.
and then you got your group that thinks that Dps meters improve the community in a game.
I suspect they're aiming for this, rendering DPS meters not that useful anyways.
I heard a bird ♫
So do I, I prefer fights where it is more about tactics, movement, etc. even full a DPS stop is fun once and a while. then just be about let's pull out our bows and swords and smack this dragon down in 2 min.