It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned.
It’s just wild
My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.
Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy.
---
I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels.
I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died.
All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
I still disagree that you require logs and addons to analyze a fight, and frankly (my personal opinion) guilds that cannot figure out on their own when agro was lost, who stood wrong, when healing was off on a target, etc. and need an addon for this ... they are the problem not the game.
Anyway, now that it is confirmed that there will be combat logs, you can analyze the information after the encounter. I hope this will please all the pro-meter folks
Regarding trial and error, trial and error is a time investment, it is not impossible. It just requires you to know your class inside out, figure out what works and doesn't and what gear compliments the class, it's skills and it's combat style. Here again (in my personal opinion) if anyone claims this is ONLY possible with a tracker then it's not the game but the player.
I do hope that and as said before: combat logs will help people after the encounter, and it seems to be a middle ground that everyone should be ok with.
You clearly have no idea how much combat trackers support every aspect of analyzing a game
Edit: Knowing the ins and outs of a class: needs detailed, accurate, objective information
Knowing how gear stats interact with each other: needs detailed, accurate, objective information
Knowing what works and what doesn't: needs detailed, accurate, objective information
Obviously if you wasted literally weeks of your life going over every damage number, every gear combination, every combination of every class, every skill, every piece of gear, every type of enchantment, every damage type, etc. on every boss then sure, you can eventually figure out the most optimized things out. Or, you can be smart and have tools to parse that information into a readable format and save yourself the trouble. Same as I could spend two hours walking to work every day, or I could be sensible and drive. Its not a matter of it being literally impossible, its a matter of wasting player's time.
It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned.
It’s just wild
My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.
Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy.
---
I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels.
I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died.
All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
I still disagree that you require logs and addons to analyze a fight, and frankly (my personal opinion) guilds that cannot figure out on their own when agro was lost, who stood wrong, when healing was off on a target, etc. and need an addon for this ... they are the problem not the game.
Anyway, now that it is confirmed that there will be combat logs, you can analyze the information after the encounter. I hope this will please all the pro-meter folks
Regarding trial and error, trial and error is a time investment, it is not impossible. It just requires you to know your class inside out, figure out what works and doesn't and what gear compliments the class, it's skills and it's combat style. Here again (in my personal opinion) if anyone claims this is ONLY possible with a tracker then it's not the game but the player.
I do hope that and as said before: combat logs will help people after the encounter, and it seems to be a middle ground that everyone should be ok with.
You clearly have no idea how much combat trackers support every aspect of analyzing a game
You do make me wonder if you ever did a raid without one xD or if you ever made your own build instead of copy-pasting one from the interwebs. If you give me a comment like that.
Each has their opinion, and as I mentioned in my post (it is my opinion) because that is how I cleared my raids, dungeons, etc. How I optimized my class and How I played. Nothing wrong with that.
Am I better than you? No, we just have our own style and our own opinion. all I am saying is that a lot of things you mentioned do not require a meter/parser but a keen eye and again that is my opinion
I also sometimes check builds people made for ESO for when it comes to PvP as that is what I enjoy the most there (if it doesn't lag hihi) + I'm not really interested in that game to spent hours up on hours trying things for that I have other games :
There are combat log you have your middle ground be happy with it
Steven said no addons/meters, he mentioned that there would be logs. With this people like yourself can analyze these or use parsers. In the end, everyone wins
It’s honestly hilarious that some people will excuse multiboxing as ok and are happy to leave it be cuz “well what can you do” despite all its harm, and yet rage that people using a tool that does nothing but provide objective, unbiased information that holds everyone on equal playing field, should be banned.
It’s just wild
My response in a spoiler because it's off topic.
Ok let's ban multiboxing but do not prevent families and friends from playing in the same house. By the way, you can't prevent multiboxing. It's impossible. And if you try, you will also have to prevent friends and family from playing in the same house, using the same internet. This is just one of the examples. Multiboxers can bypass other counter measures just as easy. What Intrepid is trying to achieve is correct, it is only a matter of words that they chose. They decided to say "multiboxing is allowed" and that's what caused the multiboxing controversy.
---
I'm fine with personal DPS meters, to be honest. But tell me, what game provides built in DPS meters while you're fighting a boss or any mobs out in the open? The question here is everyone is asking for DPS meters. However, most games usually provide training grounds of some sort for you to gauge your strength and not a real time DPS meter in the HUD. Best example is The Division 2's shooting range. I like that the best because you can play around with your builds, see your DPS and can choose the type of enemies as well as their levels.
I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died.
All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
I still disagree that you require logs and addons to analyze a fight, and frankly (my personal opinion) guilds that cannot figure out on their own when agro was lost, who stood wrong, when healing was off on a target, etc. and need an addon for this ... they are the problem not the game.
Anyway, now that it is confirmed that there will be combat logs, you can analyze the information after the encounter. I hope this will please all the pro-meter folks
Regarding trial and error, trial and error is a time investment, it is not impossible. It just requires you to know your class inside out, figure out what works and doesn't and what gear compliments the class, it's skills and it's combat style. Here again (in my personal opinion) if anyone claims this is ONLY possible with a tracker then it's not the game but the player.
I do hope that and as said before: combat logs will help people after the encounter, and it seems to be a middle ground that everyone should be ok with.
You clearly have no idea how much combat trackers support every aspect of analyzing a game
You do make me wonder if you ever did a raid without one xD or if you ever made your own build instead of copy-pasting one from the interwebs. If you give me a comment like that.
Each has their opinion, and as I mentioned in my post (it is my opinion) because that is how I cleared my raids, dungeons, etc. How I optimized my class and How I played. Nothing wrong with that.
Am I better than you? No, we just have our own style and our own opinion. all I am saying is that a lot of things you mentioned do not require a meter/parser but a keen eye and again that is my opinion
I also sometimes check builds people made for ESO for when it comes to PvP as that is what I enjoy the most there (if it doesn't lag hihi) + I'm not really interested in that game to spent hours up on hours trying things for that I have other games :
There are combat log you have your middle ground be happy with it
Steven said no addons/meters, he mentioned that there would be logs. With this people like yourself can analyze these or use parsers. In the end, everyone wins
Its not a matter of it being literally impossible, its a matter of wasting player's time.
You do make me wonder if you ever did a raid without one
The thing is, combat trackers don't just help the game in regards to raids.
As I've said, I've either seen or assisted in using combat trackers to improve;
class balance
combat mechanics
broken encounters
crafting mechanic imbalance
random number generator
Even just a random number generator that was ever so slightly broken - and was fixed using evidence provided from a combat tracker - says that there have been cases where a single person having access to one is able to make the game better for literally every player that ever plays the game.
Sure, that may be a one off (even though I've seen it twice, in different games) - but since it has actually happened it is not something that can be dismissed.
My main reason for wanting a combat tracker is not to do with raids, it is to do with being able to provide a check to Intrepids work.
Their use in raids is the part of combat trackers that people that only have a surface understanding of them focus on (no offense), and their impact on grouping is what people that have no understanding of them focus on. Some of us here do respond to these people - would be rude not to - but that isn't the focus we would like to have.
People that know their use well know that they are the only way to actually check anything at all in the game - and that is bigger than grouping or raiding or PvP or crafting or RP - it is all of them combined, plus more.
I'm not and have never been asking for just DPS measurements. DPS on its own is not that valuable a metric unless every boss fight is a tank-and-spank fight which would show a really godawful design team. Combat tracking, what I want, and what everyone here with sense is asking for, is the ability to objectively analyze encounters after the fact. Yes that includes who did the most and least damage. It also includes who took the most damage, who stood in stupid, who didn't cleanse when they should have, how often the tank lost aggro, how many times a player spread a debuff to another, how many times someone crit, how much overhealing the healers did, how high the uptime on key buffs were, how many times someone died.
All of this information is necessary to understand what is going wrong in an encounter, or what is going right. Thankfully, it seems we will in fact have combat logs, so we will have combat tracking at least from third party sites that parse such information into an easily read format, which is what most of us want. I don't need real-time dps feedback, but I absolutely need a clear, coherent way to judge a build's effectiveness. "Trial and error" cannot occur without clear, detailed, and accurate feedback.
My response to your post about multiboxing is just in the spoiler. Below "---" is my general thought to the topic in this thread itself. But I'm glad that you replied regarding the my opinion on the DPS meter nonetheless because you brought some valid points that I agree with.
In The Division 2, at the end of each missions or raids, there will be a detailed breakdown of each players performance. A combat log, basically. How many kills, damage done, damage taken, healing done, combos, killstreaks, highest damage of the skills that you use, highest healing done by your skills, and so on. I liked the post-mission logs because sometimes I thought that I was useful in killing the enemies, but it turns out I had the lowest kill count and lowest DPS of all. But I make those up by having the most (significant) healing done and revives.
That allows me to know what I need to improve on. There isn't a built in real time DPS meter and yes, I agree we don't need that. A post-combat log is very good to improve yourself.
I think when speaking of DPS meters, it shouldn't be about DPS meters. It should be about the combat logs after a raid or a dungeon.
I've been one of those 99% parse players trying to optimise everything. How about we actually get a game that don't spoonfeed us all the info through addons and indicators, but rather through trial and error and more need for interactions between players. I'm delighted by this no dmg meter policy because it convolutes the data and adds a bit of mystery to the game. How boring is it when a game becomes trivialised through data mining the crap out of it. Suddenly you get the optimal group comp, rotations etc. right there black on white. Will no dmg meter make the game harder, more confusing and time consuming? Yes, and I believe it's a good thing.
In The Division 2, at the end of each missions or raids, there will be a detailed breakdown of each players performance. A combat log, basically. How many kills, damage done, damage taken, healing done, combos, killstreaks, highest damage of the skills that you use, highest healing done by your skills, and so on. I liked the post-mission logs because sometimes I thought that I was useful in killing the enemies, but it turns out I had the lowest kill count and lowest DPS of all. But I make those up by having the most (significant) healing done and revives.
The problem I have with this is that it is too "large picture".
If you are in a raid, and someone of the same class is healing much more than you, with this system all you can do is look at how much they are doing and then talk to them about it.
Now, I am not overly good at describing what I do during combat - because rotations are stupid. Every time someone asks me how my DPS or HPS is so much higher than they would expect, I kind of just tell them that I play the game in a way that doesn't use rotations, and it is hard to explain (I've tried, it doesn't work).
On the other hand, if you have a breakdown of how much healing the other healer in your raid did with each healing ability they had, you would be able to compare that to that same breakdown of your own numbers.
Armed with that information, you will be able to deduce for yourself a whole lot more than you would be able to from simply talking to the player in question (although you still should talk to them).
I'm perfectly fine with not having information until after a pull, but the information contained should be complete.
Watched an interesting video recently that went into depth about how players will optimize fun out of the game simply to "be the best" or perform better.
Sure some min-maxers will always do this, because that is what brings them joy. But DPS meters tend to cause situations like "Accepting DPS 40K+ for raid no others", so for people to compete they play what performs best and not what they have fun playing. Because if they don't play the meta for best DPS they will not be able to get into groups for X content.
Yes this hinders min-maxers, but they still can find ways to measure their uber awesomeness without DPS meters. People who want to play to have fun can't undo DPS meter impact.
Guilty as charged.
Now why did I do that? Only because of exactly what you mentioned. When I wasn't getting into raids because my built wasn't optimal enough, I was pretty much forced into the flavor of the month build so I could participate in the upper level content. I enjoyed being included finally but I did not like the path I had to walk for that inclusion.
Watched an interesting video recently that went into depth about how players will optimize fun out of the game simply to "be the best" or perform better.
Sure some min-maxers will always do this, because that is what brings them joy. But DPS meters tend to cause situations like "Accepting DPS 40K+ for raid no others", so for people to compete they play what performs best and not what they have fun playing. Because if they don't play the meta for best DPS they will not be able to get into groups for X content.
Yes this hinders min-maxers, but they still can find ways to measure their uber awesomeness without DPS meters. People who want to play to have fun can't undo DPS meter impact.
Guilty as charged.
Now why did I do that? Only because of exactly what you mentioned. When I wasn't getting into raids because my built wasn't optimal enough, I was pretty much forced into the flavor of the month build so I could participate in the upper level content. I enjoyed being included finally but I did not like the path I had to walk for that inclusion.
Combat trackers will not change this.
Guilds will have builds that have worked for them in the past, and players will not be able to deviate from them. Not because the guild knows other builds don't work, but because they don't know that other builds do work.
At least with combat trackers, you have the ability to prove to a guild that your build works. Then, if there is only one or two builds that are viable, you have the option of complaining to teh games developer (and this is a valid complaint) that they are shit at class balance (edit to add; by removing this from the game, Intrepid are removing our ability to put forth an objectiove argument in regards to anything at all in the game).
No combat tracker means the developers won't listen if you say the classes are not balanced (you have no way of knowing this). It also means guilds won't listen to you if you want to try a different build. So, right away, the two avenues you have in a game to get out of the trap of needing a specific build to play at the top end are completely eliminated without access to a combat tracker.
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Damage meter's are definitely a double edged sword. Its obviously nice to see who is lacking and also how to better optimize your own dps. This however leads into cookie cutter metas, which im still there will still be, but I think not having them will allow more diversity in specs which im looking forward to.
Damage meter's are definitely a double edged sword. Its obviously nice to see who is lacking and also how to better optimize your own dps. This however leads into cookie cutter metas, which im still there will still be, but I think not having them will allow more diversity in specs which im looking forward to.
The only way a game can ever have cookie cutter metas is if the games developers did a poor job of overall design.
If the developers put systems in to the game where by a player may not have access to a specific item (or simply may not have it yet), then a good class system will see that player wanting a different build as someone that has that item.
If you extrapolate that notion in to the rest of Ashes, that could mean that a player that happens to be based in a node cluster that has a specific social organization, a specific religion and access to specific content may be best served by a totally different build of the same class as a player in a metropolic cluster that has a different social organization, religion and content.
Again, if there is a single "best build" in a game for any given class, then you are playing a game made by shit developers.
On the other hand, if you are playing a game where there isn't a single "best build" a combat tracker would seem to be an essential tool.
looks like ppl can't enjoy the game without min-maxing everything.
I want the game where diversity matters, not the game where everyone will roll the same build because dps meter shows that this configuration of skills and augments do 5% more damage than others...
dps-meter pros:
- you can see your dps and potentially improve
cons:
- tool for shaming others
- for boosting someones egos, bragging about numbers
- cuts diversity, most of the ppl will want to roll top dps class
- takes fun away, encounters doesn't matters only numbers, charts and diagrams
from my experience dps-meter took my enjoyment of raiding. I was more focused on being top 5 dps/healing that on actual boss fights, and I hate when ppl were replaced cause of bad performance instead of taking time to teach them.
It may be a fun tool for some ppl, but when it's mandatory to have it then it's bad. Also CONS > pros so I agree with official statement
Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️
looks like ppl can't enjoy the game without min-maxing everything.
I want the game where diversity matters, not the game where everyone will roll the same build because dps meter shows that this configuration of skills and augments do 5% more damage than others...
Please read the post directly above yours.
A combat tracker is not going to force players in to a single class or build, it is the only possible tool that will enable players to NOT be forced in to a specific class or build.
dps-meter pros:
- you can see your dps and potentially improve
cons:
- tool for shaming others
- for boosting someones egos, bragging about numbers
- cuts diversity, most of the ppl will want to roll top dps class
- takes fun away, encounters doesn't matters only numbers, charts and diagrams
In your "pros" section, you are completely ommitting the fact that a combat tracker is the only means by which players are able to reasonably objectively assess the games combat system, which in turn leads to greater player education, and also provides a check to Intrepids work.
Either the education it can provide OR the check to intrepids work more than balances out the "cons" you have listed, if they were all true.
However, they aren't.
Combat trackers do not create braggers - they exist, and will always find an avenue to tell the world how awesome and amazing they are. While combat trackers may well be the easiest thing for them to use to do this if they are in game, they will do it with literally anything they can find. Should the idea then be to remove anything in game that these players find they are able to use to brag with?
Players will also shame other players. If not for combat numbers (which usually come from players that don;t understand how combat trackers work, and are only effective on people that don't understand how combat trackers work) it will be for class, or for race, or for guild, or for node, or for social organization. These people will find something - and the same question as above applies, should we just remove everything these people find to use to shame others?
@noaani
I have read your post and I simply disagree
I prefer environment where you play something that feels the best not something that IS the best cause it's optimal. Learning by trials and errors not by making excels sheets to break things to smallest pieces.
And there always will be "the best build" and many will follow meta. Devs can patch it and I don't agree they are shitty if they didn't balance 64 classes perfectly. Less tools is better in my opinion. If something is good and helpful should be build in game.
I don't now even why we still debating about it since there will be NO DPS METES.
And there always will be "the best build" and many will follow meta.
This right here is blatantly not true.
The more complex a game is, the less true the statement here becomes.
When you start adding variables like support classes, there will be a build to almost every class that is able to make much better use of a given support class, but if you don't have that support class in your group then the build is far less worthwhile.
Or there could be a specific augment from being in a matron guild of a specific type of metropolis - getting this augment may well mean that the optimal build for your class changes drastically.
Now, one statement that will always be true is that there will always be a single best build for each specific set of circumstances. If this were the statement that people were making, I'd fully agree with them. However, people say there is a best build for each class - a statement which is only ever true in one MMO on the market (and even then, there are items that alter the best build for some classes).
I prefer environment where you play something that feels the best not something that IS the best cause it's optimal. Learning by trials and errors not by making excels sheets to break things to smallest pieces.
Cool, have at it as far as I am concerned.
The system I have been arguing for since the start of the year is for a combat tracker built in to the guild perk system, which only works on members of the specific guild. This means that if you don't want a combat tracker, you don't have to have one - and unless you join a guild that values a combat tracker (which if you are against them, you won't), then no one will be able to track your combat. Thus, you can play the game in perfect ignorant bliss - which again, have at it as far as I am concerned.
I don't now even why we still debating about it since there will be NO DPS METES.
Oh, there will be combat trackers for Ashes.
This is a point that even Steven will concede. The best you'll get from his is what he has already said "I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers."
I am currently following two groups that have been developing combat trackers for Ashes since last year.
Throwing my hat into the discussion once more:
I think that A "damage meter" should only be accessible for raid or guild leaders AFTER a raid or dungeon fight. It should show how many people were hit by AoE's, how much healing was done and who interrupted what how many times (to see who did and did not keep to the plan)
After leading a mythic and heroic raid for around 5 years I can tell you that it is a major help for raid leaders and lieutenants to weed out weaker players, which you can then help.
I know that some people dont use it for the right reason, but it also helps out showing who simply does not enough work. In higher difficulties you just cant carry dead weight sometimes. Often times DPS meter have shown that fact to the person themselves and they readily left the raid after seing that fact.
Another way to implement it would be to make it a tool that only pops up if you hit specific training dolls that you can place in your freehold, or that military nodes can build on training fields inside of the city.
Thus, you can play the game in perfect ignorant bliss - which again, have at it as far as I am concerned.
Man this is just different approach to making best of your class. You like it simple, straight forward. 10 is more than 5, ok I am doing better then. Believe me I will tweak my build base on my performance and how it feel to play it, not base on some meters and statistics and I end up with something, maybe not OPTIMAL, but satisfying and fun for ME to play.
Having a meter that tells me, my build is doing 10% less damage than optimal one, will just rip off my enjoyment.
Been playing wow for few years and have always hated how players judged the others based on their damage performance. It creates an unecessary toxicity and for that I hope that the damage meter will never make it into Ashes of Creation.
"Why do we fight? To protect Home, and Family, to preserve Balance, and bring Harmony.
For my kind, the true question is: What is worth fighting for?"
Increasing my DPS is basically where I get all my enjoyment out of PvE encounters. Does anyone else feel this way?
Some might, many others do not. I am forced to question though. If that is what gives you enjoyment. What sort of games did you play? If the proverbial d**k measuring contest is what makes things fun. It must mean the game design really is quite bad. I've never quite understood it either.
I mean topping the meters releases dopamine in many a brain, including mine. But my items might be a lot better. I might have gotten procs at the right moments in fights. Like when I do not have to move. And it just gets more and more complex that the only way to properly measure the skill component is to attack a target dummy, naked, with someone who has the exact same point allocation.
I'd also point out, that dps meters and the like, are one of the components that make classes all samey. A meta will be a lot harder to figure out if you don't have add-ons keeping track. Meaning people will pick what they enjoy a lot more, until a meta forms. And when that happens, you can as a developer make changes again and make them start from scratch.
The 64 class combinations are a big feature, not quite node system level. But a big feature nonetheless. You'd shoot yourself in the foot as a dev if you'd make it super easy for min-maxers. Because once the optimal builds are found out. People will almost be forced to play it. It's what we see in games like WoW too.
God bless for no dps meters.
Competitive players will be competitive anyways, don't think there is a need for this.
People focus more on colored rows then their own gameplay. And if this gets implemented its not a case of "if you don't like it, don't use it", its like gearscore and "link achievment", it becomes a mandatory part of the game.
The thing with this is that since circumstances change far more often than respecs will, no one is able to tell you what the over all optimal build for you is other than you - and you can use what ever criteria you want for deciding what is optimal (including how to play).
The more builds that there are for a class that are viable, the less other players are able to say anything at all about your build.
Put another way, the more complex the game is, the more freedom you have with your build being accepted.
When you look at a game like WoW, it is the simplest MMO on the market, and also the MMO with the least flexibility in terms of what players were willing to accept in terms of build. Look at a game like Path of Exile (not strictly an MMO, but a complex character building system in an online game) and there are as many variations as to what an acceptable build in that game is as there are players in that game.
Again, this is a good thing, as it means you can play your class how you want - as long as it is mostly effective (no one is going to care about 5% of a groups DPS in a game without a dungeon finder - and 5% of the groups DPS is 30% of your DPS).
So again, with complexity, you get choice without complaint. With simplicity, you get pigeon holed without any say. A combat tracker has absolutely no say in either situaiton.
cool, whatever boost your endorphins, but I hope it will be bannable sooner or later
I think you are getting me confised with a 12 year old.
I don't use a combat tracker to track my DPS, I use it to track my guilds progress. I use it to find bugs in the game that developers miss. I use it to help people that don't know how it works to improve when they ask me to.
If your opinion of a combat tracker is as you are making it out to be, then I have to say that I am of the opinion that you do not know the value of a combat tracker.
As to you hoping the become a bannable offence, honestly, that doesn't bother me.
If they are, I simply won't openly discuss the fact that I will be using one, knowing full well that Intrepid won't be able to see any use of one on my computer. So either way, I know full well I will not get banned for it.
I mean topping the meters releases dopamine in many a brain, including mine. But my items might be a lot better. I might have gotten procs at the right moments in fights. Like when I do not have to move. And it just gets more and more complex that the only way to properly measure the skill component is to attack a target dummy, naked, with someone who has the exact same point allocation.
If you are comparing one player against another on one night, you are doing combat trackers wrong.
Compare the same player in the group/raid in the same zone across multiple months.
The amount of people that are against combat trackers and then go on to post how they use them so poorly is actually astounding.
I mean, I hate trying to use a screwdriver to get a nail in a piece of wood too. Doesn't mean I think all screwdrivers should be thrown out though.
Everyone needs to relax. Someone will figure out a way to parse the data and come up with a way to parse to evaluate dps, healing and buff uptimes (and/or debuff uptime), and this is not a bad thing
And with meta classes....hmm this game seems to be more inclined towards node sieges and castle sieges. If there is a niche or role for each class in pvp, well, every class will be needed or desired in the siege. .
Oh and in PvP it is not like you need a damage meter to know if you know your class or gauge your pvp effectiveness.
Dear god this discussion about DPS meters is really exhausting. I just hope Steven has a good idea to replace meters so that there isn't the need for them because I too believe that it does more harm than benefits considering the social side (and well that's the most important side) of an MMO.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
Comments
You clearly have no idea how much combat trackers support every aspect of analyzing a game
Edit: Knowing the ins and outs of a class: needs detailed, accurate, objective information
Knowing how gear stats interact with each other: needs detailed, accurate, objective information
Knowing what works and what doesn't: needs detailed, accurate, objective information
Obviously if you wasted literally weeks of your life going over every damage number, every gear combination, every combination of every class, every skill, every piece of gear, every type of enchantment, every damage type, etc. on every boss then sure, you can eventually figure out the most optimized things out. Or, you can be smart and have tools to parse that information into a readable format and save yourself the trouble. Same as I could spend two hours walking to work every day, or I could be sensible and drive. Its not a matter of it being literally impossible, its a matter of wasting player's time.
You do make me wonder if you ever did a raid without one xD or if you ever made your own build instead of copy-pasting one from the interwebs. If you give me a comment like that.
Each has their opinion, and as I mentioned in my post (it is my opinion) because that is how I cleared my raids, dungeons, etc. How I optimized my class and How I played. Nothing wrong with that.
Am I better than you? No, we just have our own style and our own opinion. all I am saying is that a lot of things you mentioned do not require a meter/parser but a keen eye and again that is my opinion
I also sometimes check builds people made for ESO for when it comes to PvP as that is what I enjoy the most there (if it doesn't lag hihi) + I'm not really interested in that game to spent hours up on hours trying things for that I have other games :
There are combat log
Steven said no addons/meters, he mentioned that there would be logs. With this people like yourself can analyze these or use parsers. In the end, everyone wins
Its not a matter of it being literally impossible, its a matter of wasting player's time.
As I've said, I've either seen or assisted in using combat trackers to improve;
class balance
combat mechanics
broken encounters
crafting mechanic imbalance
random number generator
Even just a random number generator that was ever so slightly broken - and was fixed using evidence provided from a combat tracker - says that there have been cases where a single person having access to one is able to make the game better for literally every player that ever plays the game.
Sure, that may be a one off (even though I've seen it twice, in different games) - but since it has actually happened it is not something that can be dismissed.
My main reason for wanting a combat tracker is not to do with raids, it is to do with being able to provide a check to Intrepids work.
Their use in raids is the part of combat trackers that people that only have a surface understanding of them focus on (no offense), and their impact on grouping is what people that have no understanding of them focus on. Some of us here do respond to these people - would be rude not to - but that isn't the focus we would like to have.
People that know their use well know that they are the only way to actually check anything at all in the game - and that is bigger than grouping or raiding or PvP or crafting or RP - it is all of them combined, plus more.
My response to your post about multiboxing is just in the spoiler. Below "---" is my general thought to the topic in this thread itself. But I'm glad that you replied regarding the my opinion on the DPS meter nonetheless because you brought some valid points that I agree with.
In The Division 2, at the end of each missions or raids, there will be a detailed breakdown of each players performance. A combat log, basically. How many kills, damage done, damage taken, healing done, combos, killstreaks, highest damage of the skills that you use, highest healing done by your skills, and so on. I liked the post-mission logs because sometimes I thought that I was useful in killing the enemies, but it turns out I had the lowest kill count and lowest DPS of all. But I make those up by having the most (significant) healing done and revives.
That allows me to know what I need to improve on. There isn't a built in real time DPS meter and yes, I agree we don't need that. A post-combat log is very good to improve yourself.
I think when speaking of DPS meters, it shouldn't be about DPS meters. It should be about the combat logs after a raid or a dungeon.
If you are in a raid, and someone of the same class is healing much more than you, with this system all you can do is look at how much they are doing and then talk to them about it.
Now, I am not overly good at describing what I do during combat - because rotations are stupid. Every time someone asks me how my DPS or HPS is so much higher than they would expect, I kind of just tell them that I play the game in a way that doesn't use rotations, and it is hard to explain (I've tried, it doesn't work).
On the other hand, if you have a breakdown of how much healing the other healer in your raid did with each healing ability they had, you would be able to compare that to that same breakdown of your own numbers.
Armed with that information, you will be able to deduce for yourself a whole lot more than you would be able to from simply talking to the player in question (although you still should talk to them).
I'm perfectly fine with not having information until after a pull, but the information contained should be complete.
Guilty as charged.
Now why did I do that? Only because of exactly what you mentioned. When I wasn't getting into raids because my built wasn't optimal enough, I was pretty much forced into the flavor of the month build so I could participate in the upper level content. I enjoyed being included finally but I did not like the path I had to walk for that inclusion.
Combat trackers will not change this.
Guilds will have builds that have worked for them in the past, and players will not be able to deviate from them. Not because the guild knows other builds don't work, but because they don't know that other builds do work.
At least with combat trackers, you have the ability to prove to a guild that your build works. Then, if there is only one or two builds that are viable, you have the option of complaining to teh games developer (and this is a valid complaint) that they are shit at class balance (edit to add; by removing this from the game, Intrepid are removing our ability to put forth an objectiove argument in regards to anything at all in the game).
No combat tracker means the developers won't listen if you say the classes are not balanced (you have no way of knowing this). It also means guilds won't listen to you if you want to try a different build. So, right away, the two avenues you have in a game to get out of the trap of needing a specific build to play at the top end are completely eliminated without access to a combat tracker.
Care to expand on this at all?
None of them do, yet we are all here anyway.
The only way a game can ever have cookie cutter metas is if the games developers did a poor job of overall design.
If the developers put systems in to the game where by a player may not have access to a specific item (or simply may not have it yet), then a good class system will see that player wanting a different build as someone that has that item.
If you extrapolate that notion in to the rest of Ashes, that could mean that a player that happens to be based in a node cluster that has a specific social organization, a specific religion and access to specific content may be best served by a totally different build of the same class as a player in a metropolic cluster that has a different social organization, religion and content.
Again, if there is a single "best build" in a game for any given class, then you are playing a game made by shit developers.
On the other hand, if you are playing a game where there isn't a single "best build" a combat tracker would seem to be an essential tool.
I want the game where diversity matters, not the game where everyone will roll the same build because dps meter shows that this configuration of skills and augments do 5% more damage than others...
dps-meter pros:
- you can see your dps and potentially improve
cons:
- tool for shaming others
- for boosting someones egos, bragging about numbers
- cuts diversity, most of the ppl will want to roll top dps class
- takes fun away, encounters doesn't matters only numbers, charts and diagrams
from my experience dps-meter took my enjoyment of raiding. I was more focused on being top 5 dps/healing that on actual boss fights, and I hate when ppl were replaced cause of bad performance instead of taking time to teach them.
It may be a fun tool for some ppl, but when it's mandatory to have it then it's bad. Also CONS > pros so I agree with official statement
Please read the post directly above yours.
A combat tracker is not going to force players in to a single class or build, it is the only possible tool that will enable players to NOT be forced in to a specific class or build. In your "pros" section, you are completely ommitting the fact that a combat tracker is the only means by which players are able to reasonably objectively assess the games combat system, which in turn leads to greater player education, and also provides a check to Intrepids work.
Either the education it can provide OR the check to intrepids work more than balances out the "cons" you have listed, if they were all true.
However, they aren't.
Combat trackers do not create braggers - they exist, and will always find an avenue to tell the world how awesome and amazing they are. While combat trackers may well be the easiest thing for them to use to do this if they are in game, they will do it with literally anything they can find. Should the idea then be to remove anything in game that these players find they are able to use to brag with?
Players will also shame other players. If not for combat numbers (which usually come from players that don;t understand how combat trackers work, and are only effective on people that don't understand how combat trackers work) it will be for class, or for race, or for guild, or for node, or for social organization. These people will find something - and the same question as above applies, should we just remove everything these people find to use to shame others?
I have read your post and I simply disagree
I prefer environment where you play something that feels the best not something that IS the best cause it's optimal. Learning by trials and errors not by making excels sheets to break things to smallest pieces.
And there always will be "the best build" and many will follow meta. Devs can patch it and I don't agree they are shitty if they didn't balance 64 classes perfectly. Less tools is better in my opinion. If something is good and helpful should be build in game.
I don't now even why we still debating about it since there will be NO DPS METES.
The more complex a game is, the less true the statement here becomes.
When you start adding variables like support classes, there will be a build to almost every class that is able to make much better use of a given support class, but if you don't have that support class in your group then the build is far less worthwhile.
Or there could be a specific augment from being in a matron guild of a specific type of metropolis - getting this augment may well mean that the optimal build for your class changes drastically.
Now, one statement that will always be true is that there will always be a single best build for each specific set of circumstances. If this were the statement that people were making, I'd fully agree with them. However, people say there is a best build for each class - a statement which is only ever true in one MMO on the market (and even then, there are items that alter the best build for some classes).
Cool, have at it as far as I am concerned.
The system I have been arguing for since the start of the year is for a combat tracker built in to the guild perk system, which only works on members of the specific guild. This means that if you don't want a combat tracker, you don't have to have one - and unless you join a guild that values a combat tracker (which if you are against them, you won't), then no one will be able to track your combat. Thus, you can play the game in perfect ignorant bliss - which again, have at it as far as I am concerned. Oh, there will be combat trackers for Ashes.
This is a point that even Steven will concede. The best you'll get from his is what he has already said "I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers."
I am currently following two groups that have been developing combat trackers for Ashes since last year.
I think that A "damage meter" should only be accessible for raid or guild leaders AFTER a raid or dungeon fight. It should show how many people were hit by AoE's, how much healing was done and who interrupted what how many times (to see who did and did not keep to the plan)
After leading a mythic and heroic raid for around 5 years I can tell you that it is a major help for raid leaders and lieutenants to weed out weaker players, which you can then help.
I know that some people dont use it for the right reason, but it also helps out showing who simply does not enough work. In higher difficulties you just cant carry dead weight sometimes. Often times DPS meter have shown that fact to the person themselves and they readily left the raid after seing that fact.
Another way to implement it would be to make it a tool that only pops up if you hit specific training dolls that you can place in your freehold, or that military nodes can build on training fields inside of the city.
oh I didn't mean one and only true "best build" but more like you describe below.
hate it already
Man this is just different approach to making best of your class. You like it simple, straight forward. 10 is more than 5, ok I am doing better then. Believe me I will tweak my build base on my performance and how it feel to play it, not base on some meters and statistics
Having a meter that tells me, my build is doing 10% less damage than optimal one, will just rip off my enjoyment.
cool, whatever boost your endorphins, but I hope it will be bannable sooner or later
peace.
For my kind, the true question is: What is worth fighting for?"
Some might, many others do not. I am forced to question though. If that is what gives you enjoyment. What sort of games did you play? If the proverbial d**k measuring contest is what makes things fun. It must mean the game design really is quite bad. I've never quite understood it either.
I mean topping the meters releases dopamine in many a brain, including mine. But my items might be a lot better. I might have gotten procs at the right moments in fights. Like when I do not have to move. And it just gets more and more complex that the only way to properly measure the skill component is to attack a target dummy, naked, with someone who has the exact same point allocation.
I'd also point out, that dps meters and the like, are one of the components that make classes all samey. A meta will be a lot harder to figure out if you don't have add-ons keeping track. Meaning people will pick what they enjoy a lot more, until a meta forms. And when that happens, you can as a developer make changes again and make them start from scratch.
The 64 class combinations are a big feature, not quite node system level. But a big feature nonetheless. You'd shoot yourself in the foot as a dev if you'd make it super easy for min-maxers. Because once the optimal builds are found out. People will almost be forced to play it. It's what we see in games like WoW too.
Competitive players will be competitive anyways, don't think there is a need for this.
People focus more on colored rows then their own gameplay. And if this gets implemented its not a case of "if you don't like it, don't use it", its like gearscore and "link achievment", it becomes a mandatory part of the game.
The more builds that there are for a class that are viable, the less other players are able to say anything at all about your build.
Put another way, the more complex the game is, the more freedom you have with your build being accepted.
When you look at a game like WoW, it is the simplest MMO on the market, and also the MMO with the least flexibility in terms of what players were willing to accept in terms of build. Look at a game like Path of Exile (not strictly an MMO, but a complex character building system in an online game) and there are as many variations as to what an acceptable build in that game is as there are players in that game.
Again, this is a good thing, as it means you can play your class how you want - as long as it is mostly effective (no one is going to care about 5% of a groups DPS in a game without a dungeon finder - and 5% of the groups DPS is 30% of your DPS).
So again, with complexity, you get choice without complaint. With simplicity, you get pigeon holed without any say. A combat tracker has absolutely no say in either situaiton. I think you are getting me confised with a 12 year old.
I don't use a combat tracker to track my DPS, I use it to track my guilds progress. I use it to find bugs in the game that developers miss. I use it to help people that don't know how it works to improve when they ask me to.
If your opinion of a combat tracker is as you are making it out to be, then I have to say that I am of the opinion that you do not know the value of a combat tracker.
As to you hoping the become a bannable offence, honestly, that doesn't bother me.
If they are, I simply won't openly discuss the fact that I will be using one, knowing full well that Intrepid won't be able to see any use of one on my computer. So either way, I know full well I will not get banned for it.
Compare the same player in the group/raid in the same zone across multiple months.
The amount of people that are against combat trackers and then go on to post how they use them so poorly is actually astounding.
I mean, I hate trying to use a screwdriver to get a nail in a piece of wood too. Doesn't mean I think all screwdrivers should be thrown out though.
And with meta classes....hmm this game seems to be more inclined towards node sieges and castle sieges. If there is a niche or role for each class in pvp, well, every class will be needed or desired in the siege. .
Oh and in PvP it is not like you need a damage meter to know if you know your class or gauge your pvp effectiveness.
I heard a bird ♫