That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.
👍
Hi Steven,
I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?
I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?
Thanks
Hello friend,
Yes there are combat logs
oh sorry missed this!!!!! Thank you so much. My guild in EQ2 is 30 people story and I will do my best to get them all to move to AoC with full vigor now! This will be our next MMO
twist or turn it as much as you want, to be good at the game you do not need a tracker. It's not called "Trackers of Creation" Over the last 20 years I have played countless MMO's that didn't support meters. Were they around?? for sure, but because it was not officially the majority of the player base would not use them, some of the MMO's didn't care, others banned if they found out.
Yet in those MMO's are the ones that gave me the best memories ... we had to figure out everything on our own! We came up with our own strategy and funny enough most encounters weren't even DPS races.
Based on the mechanics and the progression you make in a fight you will quickly identify what the problem is in your group. If anyone says that cannot do this without a tracker, to bad for them.
I've lead raids in dozens of MMO's through raids, dungeons, pvp, etc. and never used a tracker to say that X sucked. We worked as a team, we trust each other and discuss with each other our builds.
The builds we used was based on mix and match, trying stuff out. Working with your friends and guild to say: Hi let's start a group, is it ok if I try my new build? if you are in a good guild, friendly, and one that works as a team 99% sure people will help you out.
Earlier in this discussion, we spoke about a middle ground, which I still stand by as someone who is against meters. Purely because I want people to enjoy the game. But clearly people want everything or nothing.
The people I am going to be playing Ashes, some wouldn't mind a meter but understand the pain points.
This doesn't stop any of them from not playing the game! We look forward to taking on new challenges, no matter if it takes us 50 tries to get a boss down or if we have to go back to the drawing board.
Can you give an example of game where there is no detailed combat logs and how did you figure thing out on your own pls?
I've not met a single PvE raider that would not be content with the suggestion made previously.
It covers what people consider the basic functionality, and that is all that really matters.
I will say though, combat tracker or no - if someone I don't know is invited to a group with me and introduces themselves by saying they are trying a new build, I would probably suggest they don't - and for a few reasons.
The first and most important - is that with a group they are unfamiliar with, they won't be able to compare that build to any previous build.
You should always try new builds with groups you have run with before.
twist or turn it as much as you want, to be good at the game you do not need a tracker. It's not called "Trackers of Creation" Over the last 20 years I have played countless MMO's that didn't support meters. Were they around?? for sure, but because it was not officially the majority of the player base would not use them, some of the MMO's didn't care, others banned if they found out.
Yet in those MMO's are the ones that gave me the best memories ... we had to figure out everything on our own! We came up with our own strategy and funny enough most encounters weren't even DPS races.
Based on the mechanics and the progression you make in a fight you will quickly identify what the problem is in your group. If anyone says that cannot do this without a tracker, to bad for them.
I've lead raids in dozens of MMO's through raids, dungeons, pvp, etc. and never used a tracker to say that X sucked. We worked as a team, we trust each other and discuss with each other our builds.
The builds we used was based on mix and match, trying stuff out. Working with your friends and guild to say: Hi let's start a group, is it ok if I try my new build? if you are in a good guild, friendly, and one that works as a team 99% sure people will help you out.
Earlier in this discussion, we spoke about a middle ground, which I still stand by as someone who is against meters. Purely because I want people to enjoy the game. But clearly people want everything or nothing.
The people I am going to be playing Ashes, some wouldn't mind a meter but understand the pain points.
This doesn't stop any of them from not playing the game! We look forward to taking on new challenges, no matter if it takes us 50 tries to get a boss down or if we have to go back to the drawing board.
Can you give an example of a game where there is no detailed combat logs and how did you figure the thing out on your own pls?
Never said there are no combat logs, we just didn't have to use them or become a data Analyst.
We went through each fight by observing what was going on, how could we counter it, what went wrong, what did we notice, etc.
This has given me some of my best MMO memories
We played (below is the ones were we focused on Pve content)
- Lotro
- WoW (we played until cata)
- Swtor (raiding was not their strong point, neither the story or nightmare mode)
- Gw2
- Eso
- Wildstar (not sure if you are familiar with this MMO - wasn't around for that long)
-
Missing a few for sure
Never have we harrassed a random that joined our group, if they didn't do that well or they struggled we just spoke with them and gave some pointers it's also how I met a lot of my MMO friends
1
mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There is a lot about this decision that doesn't make much sense.
The logic doesn't hold from a toxicity perspective.
It doesn't hold from a player agency perspective.
It doesn't hold from an inclusivity perspective.
The only perspective it makes sense from is a "his game, his choice" perspective. But even then, you would think there would be some logic in the choice.
I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is it's easier to give something then take it away.
If they really think they need to add them later down the line, they can and people will be happy but if they cave to pressure now and decide they want to go back, there will be a lot more backlash.
Also, just because you have counter-arguments or know of instances where something they claim isn't true, doesn't discount their whole argument.
There have most definitely been instances where having easy access to data on DPS has caused toxicity.
Having the precise data you get from dps meters does reduce player agency as you have a very fine measuring stick to know exactly how different builds perform. This means fewer builds are viable as even if it's by a small margin and it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, you know what's better.
Inclusivity kind of loops back to the toxicity argument.
Just because you are right doesn't mean they are wrong.
As a side note, you can be a hardcore player without dps meters. It just takes a little more work.
There have most definitely been instances where having easy access to data on DPS has caused toxicity.
If we were to assume that toxicity is a major driver behind the decision, all we need to do is look at the toxicity that will be caused when players have their freeholds steamrolled over after losing a siege - have their entire in game life and routine completely upended - to realize that any potential toxicity that could come from combat trackers (especially if implemented as per the suggestion made months ago) would be insignificantly minor in comparison.
This is the issue.
It's ok to have a thing that will cause toxicity in the game for one group of players, but not something that only might possibly cause a small amount of the same - and on very rare occasions when all the stars and planets align - is not ok if it is for a different segment of the player base.
Honestly, saying it is because of toxicity is worse than saying almost anything else - worse than saying nothing.
It's great that there is a combat log confirmed now, but will this be exportable? Or in game only? And does it only say what you've done or show what others have done also?
Also, i assume "damage meters" as a whole will exist on the Intrepid side so they can balance the game using their sims of classes. But the combat formulas (if not expressly given) will be closely approximated or reverse engineered if the game is popular enough, and sims will be run to get the tier list of damage dealt, HPS done, Best tank configuration. Then the associated stats and any thresholds that are seen (really depends on how the stats are). These will be posted up in guides and People will enter in their current gear to sim how they are doing compared to others. We have seen this in many other popular and non-popular games that do and don't offer damage meters. Combat logs are enough for this but trial and error testing on targets would do fine too.
There are sites like warcraftlogs.com that will take a combat log and extract all the information from it, put it on a timeline, show you what happened when and where. It doesn't show positioning or anything of that but what damage was done where and when and for how much. Then give a breakdown in a chart of you and the raid against the world. So it's not like damage meters wont exist. It may be that every person will need to input their output log separately but that's just a hassle. But doesn't mean it wont be done.
So a group will be able to "optimize" the best they can with this information. The community will eventually know which augments are good or perceived to be less optimal. You can use Utility abilities to make a certain class worth bringing but a rogue finding a trap door wont help kill the dragon faster, and that is what people will want to do. In a lot of the examples you've given in interviews, you've talked about the Fighter using Daggers and getting a bleed effect or picking up fire sword synergies with Mages. One of those will do theoretical higher damage than the other. Yes you will have people who do one or the other because of how they want to play and what feels more fun, but the "hardcore" group will be forced into one of them. Now either stuff will be too easy for them to and will need to be made harder, or you make it so sub optimal can complete the content just not as fast or easily.
Where i am getting at here is really, while i would LOVE a world in which damage meters don't exist and people play the game and enjoy it and damage wont matter, that world unfortunately wont exist; and if it does, not for very long.
I think if you want to not officially support damage meters in game, that's fine. But i wouldn't go out of your way to hinder 3rd party ones that use official game data (like the combat logs). Because it'll happen anyway and if that's your policy then you'll spend a lot of time tackling a problem that really at the end of the day is out of your hands. I think a better use of your time would be to keep working on balancing the games, working on systems and new features for future content packs / expansions.
People don't keep making threads about the potential to delevel nodes (No Toxicity).
People keep making threads about DPS Meters etc (Toxicity in most of these threads).
I see the argument about toxicity to be self evident.
If you go back through the threads on combat trackers this year, most of the threads have been somewhat toxicity free - and what toxicity has been in them has been from the side that doesn't want them.
And this isn't a great comparison. People have been in situations where they blamed combat trackers for 'bad things' that happened to them (right or wrong - mostly wrong), they havn't been in situations where their node was deleveled and their house destroyed.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There have most definitely been instances where having easy access to data on DPS has caused toxicity.
If we were to assume that toxicity is a major driver behind the decision, all we need to do is look at the toxicity that will be caused when players have their freeholds steamrolled over after losing a siege - have their entire in game life and routine completely upended - to realize that any potential toxicity that could come from combat trackers (especially if implemented as per the suggestion made months ago) would be insignificantly minor in comparison.
This is the issue.
It's ok to have a thing that will cause toxicity in the game for one group of players, but not something that only might possibly cause a small amount of the same - and on very rare occasions when all the stars and planets align - is not ok if it is for a different segment of the player base.
Honestly, saying it is because of toxicity is worse than saying almost anything else - worse than saying nothing.
Yes, toxicity isn't the only reason they would prefer not to add dps meters and I doubt it's the primary reason, just the easiest thing to talk to.
I don't particularly care if there are websites that can translate Combat Logs. I too can translate Combat Logs. What I don't want is someone using a DPS Meter to directly measure my performance. My performance can be monitored by me. I don't like paste-able DPS Meters, intrinsic DPS Meters, DPS Meter Thresholds, I don't like DPS Meters at all in fact.
I was/am a Hardcore PvEer and a Hardcore PvPer. I see no reason to add a DPS Meter. A third party website can't be pasted into the game, and, if an external link is added, I wouldn't click it either. It takes the biscuits when I train people on Raids, explain the Tactics, explain the Strategies and then someone turns around and complains about stats in a DPS Meter.
It isn't the DPS Meter which has enabled the Victory, it's the time people take to explain what is happening and how to improve on certain areas of bosses.
There have most definitely been instances where having easy access to data on DPS has caused toxicity.
If we were to assume that toxicity is a major driver behind the decision, all we need to do is look at the toxicity that will be caused when players have their freeholds steamrolled over after losing a siege - have their entire in game life and routine completely upended - to realize that any potential toxicity that could come from combat trackers (especially if implemented as per the suggestion made months ago) would be insignificantly minor in comparison.
This is the issue.
It's ok to have a thing that will cause toxicity in the game for one group of players, but not something that only might possibly cause a small amount of the same - and on very rare occasions when all the stars and planets align - is not ok if it is for a different segment of the player base.
Honestly, saying it is because of toxicity is worse than saying almost anything else - worse than saying nothing.
Yes, toxicity isn't the only reason they would prefer not to add dps meters and I doubt it's the primary reason, just the easiest thing to talk to.
Indeed, and without any kind of reasoning, all we have is conjecture.
Thing is, if you are a top end PvE player looking at Ashes now - there is nothing good about the game to bring you in.
There are other things that are good, but at the end of the day, all that means is that Ashes me be your occasional second MMO - at best.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There have most definitely been instances where having easy access to data on DPS has caused toxicity.
If we were to assume that toxicity is a major driver behind the decision, all we need to do is look at the toxicity that will be caused when players have their freeholds steamrolled over after losing a siege - have their entire in game life and routine completely upended - to realize that any potential toxicity that could come from combat trackers (especially if implemented as per the suggestion made months ago) would be insignificantly minor in comparison.
This is the issue.
It's ok to have a thing that will cause toxicity in the game for one group of players, but not something that only might possibly cause a small amount of the same - and on very rare occasions when all the stars and planets align - is not ok if it is for a different segment of the player base.
Honestly, saying it is because of toxicity is worse than saying almost anything else - worse than saying nothing.
Yes, toxicity isn't the only reason they would prefer not to add dps meters and I doubt it's the primary reason, just the easiest thing to talk to.
Indeed, and without any kind of reasoning, all we have is conjecture.
Thing is, if you are a top end PvE player looking at Ashes now - there is nothing good about the game to bring you in.
My guess is the reason probably has more to do with how dps becomes the primary score used to access class effectiveness in encounters as other aspects of performance are hard to measure.
I'm pretty sure top end PvE players are looking for good pve. Not saying we have seen proof of that yet but I find it weird that they would turn away just because they don't have meters.
I don't think you logic stands up. WoW didn't have DPS Meters built in, it thrived. WoW had third Party DPS Meters then Raid Finder and Group Finder was added, because, most people couldn't gain access to Raids and Groups. I do not know if this was a direct issue with DPS Meters or because of a mish-mash of factors, but, DPS Thresholds were definitely pre-requisites for groups after DPS Meters were enabled.
I love to make Pick Up Group Raids and rival the Best PvE Guilds at the different Tiers of Raids. I love the errors, I love the triumphs, I love the unpredictability. I don't think Pick Up Group Raids will be common in Ashes because of no Fast Travel, because of the Contestation System and because of the Crafting System.
It has not put me off Ashes at all. In fact, I'm refreshed by the fact that Min/Maxers can't dictate the game for the rest of the gamers.
I don't particularly care if there are websites that can translate Combat Logs. I too can translate Combat Logs. What I don't want is someone using a DPS Meter to directly measure my performance. My performance can be monitored by me. I don't like paste-able DPS Meters, intrinsic DPS Meters, DPS Meter Thresholds, I don't like DPS Meters at all in fact.
I agree, and I believe you should have the choice as to whether your combat is tracked or not.
That was a part of the suggestion I made months ago as a way to deal with the potential issues combat trackers are percieved to have.
With that suggestion, the only people that would have access to combat trackers are people in guilds that select them as perks in place of other things, and the only people they will be able to track are people in their guild.
This means that if you are against combat trackers, and you probably hang around with people that are likeminded, and you are unlikely to ever have your combat tracked.
It takes the biscuits when I train people on Raids, explain the Tactics, explain the Strategies and then someone turns around and complains about stats in a DPS Meter.
What I do - if there is a need to have a running tracker during combat - is I look at the names given to the damage for the specific mechanics that we need to avoid for the encounter.
If there is a "floor lava" thing that the raid needs to avoid, and a "falling rocks" thing as well, then I tell the combat tracker to add up the damage that people take from those two sources, and have that running in the tracker instead.
That way, the competitive nature in people (that you want to foster, not suppress) compels these players to do the absolute best they can to avoid those damage sources.
All of a sudden, you have turned your negative in to the biggest positive for both your raid, and your raiders. You've turned your raiders friendly competitiveness against each other in to the guilds biggest asset.
This is how combat trackers should be used - and how my argument for them assumes they will be used.
I'm just hopeful Steven will keep his own vision about this toxic-prone system. It's like they say, the loud minority tends to be heard while the silent majority don't say a word.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
I'm just hopeful Steven will keep his own vision about this toxic-prone system. It's like they say, the loud minority tends to be heard while the silent majority don't say a word.
How many people say things doesn't matter, nor does how loud they say them.
What matters is what they say.
Edit to add; the suggestion that has been made to Intrepid, taht was a combination of many players input and scrutinizing, was as follows;
Combat tracker only available as a guild perk - and is selected in place of other valuable options.
Only works on members of the guild that selects it.
Does not work on players outside of the guild, even if they join in on guild raids.
Does not work in PvP.
Does not display information at all until after the encounter.
Now, as I said, it isn't how many people say a thing, or how loud a thing is said, what matters is exactly what it is that is said.
So, my challenge to you is to take in those paramaters, and post any issues you could see arising in game that would negatively affect you if it exists.
You don't need to be a lot of people, nor loud, you just need to have something to point out.
People may use DPS meters to measure how "amazing" they are or not. But in games that have them, they show more than just who did more damage. Shows damage taken, shows dispels done, etc. It can also be used as a tool to improve yourself with live feedback.
Yes in Vanilla wow we didn't have damage meters when raids started. We went through all of MC without them. Struggled here and there and worked together as a group. Then Damage meters came out when we were in BWL and i remember people getting very upset that the reason we were struggling on bosses was because some people were doing next to no damage and were being carried. But people also used that to improve and say "okay.. i was doing this that clearly doesn't work.. let me try this instead" since now they know.
In classic wow now we still bring sub optimal specs that don't do a lot on the meter because of buffs / etc. We have 2 moonkins and 2 feral druids. Their damage isn't amazing but they bring some buffs and battle rezes to the group. But you have speed runners who also clear the content 4x faster than us by using 30 warriors.
Also, group finder and LFR were added into WoW not because people couldn't find groups but because people with limited time would get on and not be able to complete content since they'd have to spend 30 minutes out of their 2 hours just finding the group and they wanted an easier way to play the game with their limited time. And LFR because not everyone wanted to dedicate time into min/maxxing and getting all this gear and just experience the content that blizz was putting all of their time in. If a new patch came out the only REAL content in it is the new raid.. maybe some new quests but they would focus around a raid that not everyone got to participate in.
Personally, i don't want a damage meter to tell someone how bad they are.. i want one to make sure i am doing a good job myself. So if i can have a tool to do that that is out of the game and not postable if that's the issue, then fine. Or if i need to upload to a website to see that. then fine. I will put in the work to do better in the game. But don't tell me i can't improve myself because that ruins someone else who doesn't care if they are doing a good job or not.
If you want to find out your dps, you can do the following.
Go to a raid or dungeon or whatever and record yourself fighting the boss.
After the fight, review the recording, add up all the damage numbers you dealt to the boss, and divide that by the time it took to beat the boss in seconds.
If you want to find out your dps, you can do the following.
Go to a raid or dungeon or whatever and record yourself fighting the boss.
After the fight, review the recording, add up all the damage numbers you dealt to the boss, and divide that by the time it took to beat the boss in seconds.
Bam, you have your dps.
If those numbers exist on screen, there will be a combat tracker.
If you want to find out your dps, you can do the following.
Go to a raid or dungeon or whatever and record yourself fighting the boss.
After the fight, review the recording, add up all the damage numbers you dealt to the boss, and divide that by the time it took to beat the boss in seconds.
Bam, you have your dps.
That is a gross under representation of what a damage meter or any combat tracker does and i think you probably understand that.
Not to mention if you want me to record the boss and look at the numbers appear over his head i can't be looking at the mechanics happening around me and what to avoid..
If you want to find out your dps, you can do the following.
Go to a raid or dungeon or whatever and record yourself fighting the boss.
After the fight, review the recording, add up all the damage numbers you dealt to the boss, and divide that by the time it took to beat the boss in seconds.
Bam, you have your dps.
If those numbers exist on screen, there will be a combat tracker.
We already know that people will make dps metres, no one is acting like no dps metres will never exist in the game.
However, if you happen to use those metres and then go to people "you need X dps to join our guild" or kick someone for "low dps", then you'll be banned.
If you want to find out your dps, you can do the following.
Go to a raid or dungeon or whatever and record yourself fighting the boss.
After the fight, review the recording, add up all the damage numbers you dealt to the boss, and divide that by the time it took to beat the boss in seconds.
Bam, you have your dps.
That is a gross under representation of what a damage meter or any combat tracker does and i think you probably understand that.
Not to mention if you want me to record the boss and look at the numbers appear over his head i can't be looking at the mechanics happening around me and what to avoid..
That's why I said to review the footage after the fight.
If you want to find out your dps, you can do the following.
Go to a raid or dungeon or whatever and record yourself fighting the boss.
After the fight, review the recording, add up all the damage numbers you dealt to the boss, and divide that by the time it took to beat the boss in seconds.
Bam, you have your dps.
If those numbers exist on screen, there will be a combat tracker.
We already know that people will make dps metres, no one is acting like no dps metres will never exist in the game.
However, if you happen to use those metres and then go to people "you need X dps to join our guild" or kick someone for "low dps", then you'll be banned.
Yeah, but inviting a perspective recruit to a dungeon and then parsing their combat to assess them won't get you banned.
End result is the same - if they can't perform, they don't get in.
That is why I like the suggestion that has been formed in the past (outlined in an edit a few posts up). It would force guilds to take on the role of trainer for new recruits - which imo is something they should have always been doing.
That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.
👍
Hi Steven,
I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?
I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?
Thanks
Hello friend,
Yes there are combat logs
So just to clarify @Steven Sharif the combat logs will reflect only the individual's output or also that of the group?
In the case of the group, there is no difference between a meter and these logs. You can easily just use a log tool to analyze the information.
That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.
👍
Hi Steven,
I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?
I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?
Thanks
Hello friend,
Yes there are combat logs
So just to clarify @Steven Sharif the combat logs will reflect only the individual's output or also that of the group?
In the case of the group, there is no difference between a meter and these logs. You can easily just use a log tool to analyze the information.
Thank you in advance for your reply
If it is the individual information only, combat trackers will just be run on servers that all members of the raid need to join.
The end result is the same as if the suggestion I made months ago were enacted.
Personally I'm happy it's not in, just another way for people to measure their epeen. This reminds me a lot of some old school MMO's thank goodness it's making a comeback. Not everything needs to be min/max.
Personally I'm happy it's not in, just another way for people to measure their epeen. This reminds me a lot of some old school MMO's thank goodness it's making a comeback. Not everything needs to be min/max.
Is there anything wrong with a bit of epeen measuring if it is just between friends?
between friends sure, but like steven said it tends to exclude just random people because they don't measure up to expectations.
Which is why I have been suggestiong the following for a combat tracker added directly to the games client for months now;
Combat tracker only available as a guild perk - and is selected in place of other valuable options.
Only works on members of the guild that selects it.
Does not work on players outside of the guild, even if they join in on guild raids.
Does not work in PvP.
Does not display information at all until after the encounter.
With this, it is only friends that are able to compare DPS. It also forces guilds to take on the role of trainer of new recruits - at least for a period of time - as those players would never have had the opportunity to objectively assess their performance until signing up with the guild.
In turn, this means guilds will have to look at the player to decide if they want to recruit them rather than the numbers - as the numbers won't be known until a decision is made on who to recruit.
All up, that way of adding a combat tracker to a game has no downsides, and plenty of good points.
Comments
oh sorry missed this!!!!! Thank you so much. My guild in EQ2 is 30 people story and I will do my best to get them all to move to AoC with full vigor now! This will be our next MMO
Can you give an example of game where there is no detailed combat logs and how did you figure thing out on your own pls?
It covers what people consider the basic functionality, and that is all that really matters.
I will say though, combat tracker or no - if someone I don't know is invited to a group with me and introduces themselves by saying they are trying a new build, I would probably suggest they don't - and for a few reasons.
The first and most important - is that with a group they are unfamiliar with, they won't be able to compare that build to any previous build.
You should always try new builds with groups you have run with before.
Never said there are no combat logs, we just didn't have to use them or become a data Analyst.
We went through each fight by observing what was going on, how could we counter it, what went wrong, what did we notice, etc.
This has given me some of my best MMO memories
We played (below is the ones were we focused on Pve content)
- Lotro
- WoW (we played until cata)
- Swtor (raiding was not their strong point, neither the story or nightmare mode)
- Gw2
- Eso
- Wildstar (not sure if you are familiar with this MMO - wasn't around for that long)
-
Missing a few for sure
Never have we harrassed a random that joined our group, if they didn't do that well or they struggled we just spoke with them and gave some pointers
I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is it's easier to give something then take it away.
If they really think they need to add them later down the line, they can and people will be happy but if they cave to pressure now and decide they want to go back, there will be a lot more backlash.
Also, just because you have counter-arguments or know of instances where something they claim isn't true, doesn't discount their whole argument.
There have most definitely been instances where having easy access to data on DPS has caused toxicity.
Having the precise data you get from dps meters does reduce player agency as you have a very fine measuring stick to know exactly how different builds perform. This means fewer builds are viable as even if it's by a small margin and it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, you know what's better.
Inclusivity kind of loops back to the toxicity argument.
Just because you are right doesn't mean they are wrong.
As a side note, you can be a hardcore player without dps meters. It just takes a little more work.
This is the issue.
It's ok to have a thing that will cause toxicity in the game for one group of players, but not something that only might possibly cause a small amount of the same - and on very rare occasions when all the stars and planets align - is not ok if it is for a different segment of the player base.
Honestly, saying it is because of toxicity is worse than saying almost anything else - worse than saying nothing.
Indeed you can.
But if you are going to put that work in, best put it in on a game that wants you there.
If the systems to support high end PvE aren't there, what reason do we have to assume the content will be?
People keep making threads about DPS Meters etc (Toxicity in most of these threads).
I see the argument about toxicity to be self evident.
Also, i assume "damage meters" as a whole will exist on the Intrepid side so they can balance the game using their sims of classes. But the combat formulas (if not expressly given) will be closely approximated or reverse engineered if the game is popular enough, and sims will be run to get the tier list of damage dealt, HPS done, Best tank configuration. Then the associated stats and any thresholds that are seen (really depends on how the stats are). These will be posted up in guides and People will enter in their current gear to sim how they are doing compared to others. We have seen this in many other popular and non-popular games that do and don't offer damage meters. Combat logs are enough for this but trial and error testing on targets would do fine too.
There are sites like warcraftlogs.com that will take a combat log and extract all the information from it, put it on a timeline, show you what happened when and where. It doesn't show positioning or anything of that but what damage was done where and when and for how much. Then give a breakdown in a chart of you and the raid against the world. So it's not like damage meters wont exist. It may be that every person will need to input their output log separately but that's just a hassle. But doesn't mean it wont be done.
So a group will be able to "optimize" the best they can with this information. The community will eventually know which augments are good or perceived to be less optimal. You can use Utility abilities to make a certain class worth bringing but a rogue finding a trap door wont help kill the dragon faster, and that is what people will want to do. In a lot of the examples you've given in interviews, you've talked about the Fighter using Daggers and getting a bleed effect or picking up fire sword synergies with Mages. One of those will do theoretical higher damage than the other. Yes you will have people who do one or the other because of how they want to play and what feels more fun, but the "hardcore" group will be forced into one of them. Now either stuff will be too easy for them to and will need to be made harder, or you make it so sub optimal can complete the content just not as fast or easily.
Where i am getting at here is really, while i would LOVE a world in which damage meters don't exist and people play the game and enjoy it and damage wont matter, that world unfortunately wont exist; and if it does, not for very long.
I think if you want to not officially support damage meters in game, that's fine. But i wouldn't go out of your way to hinder 3rd party ones that use official game data (like the combat logs). Because it'll happen anyway and if that's your policy then you'll spend a lot of time tackling a problem that really at the end of the day is out of your hands. I think a better use of your time would be to keep working on balancing the games, working on systems and new features for future content packs / expansions.
If you go back through the threads on combat trackers this year, most of the threads have been somewhat toxicity free - and what toxicity has been in them has been from the side that doesn't want them.
And this isn't a great comparison. People have been in situations where they blamed combat trackers for 'bad things' that happened to them (right or wrong - mostly wrong), they havn't been in situations where their node was deleveled and their house destroyed.
Yes, toxicity isn't the only reason they would prefer not to add dps meters and I doubt it's the primary reason, just the easiest thing to talk to.
I was/am a Hardcore PvEer and a Hardcore PvPer. I see no reason to add a DPS Meter. A third party website can't be pasted into the game, and, if an external link is added, I wouldn't click it either. It takes the biscuits when I train people on Raids, explain the Tactics, explain the Strategies and then someone turns around and complains about stats in a DPS Meter.
It isn't the DPS Meter which has enabled the Victory, it's the time people take to explain what is happening and how to improve on certain areas of bosses.
Indeed, and without any kind of reasoning, all we have is conjecture.
Thing is, if you are a top end PvE player looking at Ashes now - there is nothing good about the game to bring you in.
There are other things that are good, but at the end of the day, all that means is that Ashes me be your occasional second MMO - at best.
My guess is the reason probably has more to do with how dps becomes the primary score used to access class effectiveness in encounters as other aspects of performance are hard to measure.
I'm pretty sure top end PvE players are looking for good pve. Not saying we have seen proof of that yet but I find it weird that they would turn away just because they don't have meters.
I love to make Pick Up Group Raids and rival the Best PvE Guilds at the different Tiers of Raids. I love the errors, I love the triumphs, I love the unpredictability. I don't think Pick Up Group Raids will be common in Ashes because of no Fast Travel, because of the Contestation System and because of the Crafting System.
It has not put me off Ashes at all. In fact, I'm refreshed by the fact that Min/Maxers can't dictate the game for the rest of the gamers.
That was a part of the suggestion I made months ago as a way to deal with the potential issues combat trackers are percieved to have.
With that suggestion, the only people that would have access to combat trackers are people in guilds that select them as perks in place of other things, and the only people they will be able to track are people in their guild.
This means that if you are against combat trackers, and you probably hang around with people that are likeminded, and you are unlikely to ever have your combat tracked.
What I do - if there is a need to have a running tracker during combat - is I look at the names given to the damage for the specific mechanics that we need to avoid for the encounter.
If there is a "floor lava" thing that the raid needs to avoid, and a "falling rocks" thing as well, then I tell the combat tracker to add up the damage that people take from those two sources, and have that running in the tracker instead.
That way, the competitive nature in people (that you want to foster, not suppress) compels these players to do the absolute best they can to avoid those damage sources.
All of a sudden, you have turned your negative in to the biggest positive for both your raid, and your raiders. You've turned your raiders friendly competitiveness against each other in to the guilds biggest asset.
This is how combat trackers should be used - and how my argument for them assumes they will be used.
I heard a bird ♫
@Valento92
How many people say things doesn't matter, nor does how loud they say them.
What matters is what they say.
Edit to add; the suggestion that has been made to Intrepid, taht was a combination of many players input and scrutinizing, was as follows;
Combat tracker only available as a guild perk - and is selected in place of other valuable options.
Only works on members of the guild that selects it.
Does not work on players outside of the guild, even if they join in on guild raids.
Does not work in PvP.
Does not display information at all until after the encounter.
Now, as I said, it isn't how many people say a thing, or how loud a thing is said, what matters is exactly what it is that is said.
So, my challenge to you is to take in those paramaters, and post any issues you could see arising in game that would negatively affect you if it exists.
You don't need to be a lot of people, nor loud, you just need to have something to point out.
Yes in Vanilla wow we didn't have damage meters when raids started. We went through all of MC without them. Struggled here and there and worked together as a group. Then Damage meters came out when we were in BWL and i remember people getting very upset that the reason we were struggling on bosses was because some people were doing next to no damage and were being carried. But people also used that to improve and say "okay.. i was doing this that clearly doesn't work.. let me try this instead" since now they know.
In classic wow now we still bring sub optimal specs that don't do a lot on the meter because of buffs / etc. We have 2 moonkins and 2 feral druids. Their damage isn't amazing but they bring some buffs and battle rezes to the group. But you have speed runners who also clear the content 4x faster than us by using 30 warriors.
Also, group finder and LFR were added into WoW not because people couldn't find groups but because people with limited time would get on and not be able to complete content since they'd have to spend 30 minutes out of their 2 hours just finding the group and they wanted an easier way to play the game with their limited time. And LFR because not everyone wanted to dedicate time into min/maxxing and getting all this gear and just experience the content that blizz was putting all of their time in. If a new patch came out the only REAL content in it is the new raid.. maybe some new quests but they would focus around a raid that not everyone got to participate in.
Personally, i don't want a damage meter to tell someone how bad they are.. i want one to make sure i am doing a good job myself. So if i can have a tool to do that that is out of the game and not postable if that's the issue, then fine. Or if i need to upload to a website to see that. then fine. I will put in the work to do better in the game. But don't tell me i can't improve myself because that ruins someone else who doesn't care if they are doing a good job or not.
Go to a raid or dungeon or whatever and record yourself fighting the boss.
After the fight, review the recording, add up all the damage numbers you dealt to the boss, and divide that by the time it took to beat the boss in seconds.
Bam, you have your dps.
If those numbers exist on screen, there will be a combat tracker.
That is a gross under representation of what a damage meter or any combat tracker does and i think you probably understand that.
Not to mention if you want me to record the boss and look at the numbers appear over his head i can't be looking at the mechanics happening around me and what to avoid..
We already know that people will make dps metres, no one is acting like no dps metres will never exist in the game.
However, if you happen to use those metres and then go to people "you need X dps to join our guild" or kick someone for "low dps", then you'll be banned.
That's why I said to review the footage after the fight.
Yeah, but inviting a perspective recruit to a dungeon and then parsing their combat to assess them won't get you banned.
End result is the same - if they can't perform, they don't get in.
That is why I like the suggestion that has been formed in the past (outlined in an edit a few posts up). It would force guilds to take on the role of trainer for new recruits - which imo is something they should have always been doing.
So just to clarify @Steven Sharif the combat logs will reflect only the individual's output or also that of the group?
In the case of the group, there is no difference between a meter and these logs. You can easily just use a log tool to analyze the information.
Thank you in advance for your reply
The end result is the same as if the suggestion I made months ago were enacted.
Is there anything wrong with a bit of epeen measuring if it is just between friends?
Combat tracker only available as a guild perk - and is selected in place of other valuable options.
Only works on members of the guild that selects it.
Does not work on players outside of the guild, even if they join in on guild raids.
Does not work in PvP.
Does not display information at all until after the encounter.
With this, it is only friends that are able to compare DPS. It also forces guilds to take on the role of trainer of new recruits - at least for a period of time - as those players would never have had the opportunity to objectively assess their performance until signing up with the guild.
In turn, this means guilds will have to look at the player to decide if they want to recruit them rather than the numbers - as the numbers won't be known until a decision is made on who to recruit.
All up, that way of adding a combat tracker to a game has no downsides, and plenty of good points.