DPS Meter Megathread

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Comments

  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    I would rather see a tool like WoW's advanced combat logging(warcraft logs) instead of an in game dps meter.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 2019
    Yeah, if we're going to have combat meters, have it for everything, so we can track utility, aggro, healing, cc, buff/debuff, etc -- in addition to dps.
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Specifically I don't want it in game at all, what I meant was I would rather have it create a external log file that would need parsed before it's usable, but would include a detailed breakdown of the encounter. This would allow raid teams to perform a detailed post-mortem, allowing them to improve.
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  • I do not want any sort of addon.
    How can I immerse myself in a game when half my screen is taken by DPS meter, pops up telling me the next ability the boss is going to make or what debuffs are affecting me in flashing neon lights?

    If want want to improve yourself, that's great. Now, to know how much you've improved, do it like in real life. When something takes less time or less effort to complete after all of your training, then you know you're on the good road.
  • The problem with these meters is they have negative consequences for both the community and the dev's. For the community, it instills a toxic mentality of maxing dps, to the detriment of actual gameplay, and attempting to circumvent the mechanics of any given dungeon/raid in a torrent of damage. It starts with the dps, then the dps who wish to be the very highest damagers begin to ignore mechanics, expecting healers to keep them alive through any damage, then to the tanks since the healers are now focusing more of their heals on the damagers. And on the dev side, it opens the way for such annoying in game contrivances like rage timers, and dps check bosses. WoW is a prime example of this. In so many raids and dungeons, there are one or 2 fun, mechanical bosses, and many more tank and spank ones. It detracts from the game, and turns the entire thing into a boring, monotonous face roll on the keyboard. If there's a place to check your dps, i'd say the only place you should be able to do so is at some sort of test dummy, maybe even ones near however they allow you to switch your secondary class, so that you can learn what moves best work together, and spend actual dungeon or raid time using your utility, moving, and being a good teammate.
  • @zorish
    Well... No one would force you to use an addon? xD
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    I'm a casual player and I love building efficient and powerful characters. I have never needed a tool to do it though. I do, however, take my time playing/learning/leveling.

    Players like me love advancing at our own pace and are capable of doing it without help. Maybe since I am not in a hurry to get to a specific power level I havent looked into these tools.

    Like most things Ashes, a DPS meter will be nice and desired by some, but annoying or pointless to others.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    I don't really know how I feel about meters built into the game itself. I know Steven has said they will have a very customizable UI, so I'm not too worried about screen clutter, yet I still am hesitant to throw support behind something that clutters the screen and isn't an option to be turned off.
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  • grisugrisu Member
    edited June 2019
    @blackhearted The quote itself gives the answer, it's a lot quicker and more prominently because you as a player can just screenshot it and provide context.
    I'm sure they will have tracking on stats and stuff, but every player will constantly be streaming data. It's like a gigantic statistic you have to sieve through for patterns and then u nderstand why it's the way it is.
    A dps meter provides a community sieve that takes away a lot of that work. Hence a lot quicker and more prominently.
    It is not just enrage timers itself, but as a holy trinity game you have 3 parameters. DPS survivability and healing.
    If you want to create engaging content and want it to have a certain difficulty you need to balance all 3 together somehow.
    If there is no dps "requierment" per say then the burden falls on the healers and the tanks.(I think it's logical that bosses wil take longer because of lower dps, hence higher burden on the other 2 parameters. I hope I can assume you all follow me on that right?). If they can heal and tank indefinitly to support the "whatever dps" attitude, then the whole boss is trivial with absolutely no risk involved, it just takes more or less longer. I VERY STRONGLY believe that noone likes bulletsponges or wants to be in an 8 man Group/ 40 man raid that has absolutley no danger associated with it.
    It doesnt matter if its designed as hard enrage or what not. Bottom line is there has to be some balance between player vs monsters as well as parties/raids vs bosses to ensure engaging content.
    DPS meter provides a tool to see where you are right now and where you need to be to challenge something.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. Grisu
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. Zekece#1819

  • For people like you (casual) a dps meter is more of problem because you don't care that much about improvement which is fine.
    Are you saying that its too difficult for a player of ur caliber to improve without a dps meter?
    You're seeking perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    When running a dps class I usually ran "Casual Meter" in Tera because I understood the mechanics and everything else but cannot calculate my raw dps in a fight. I just needed something simple that takes up very little room and is very similar to what you see in the video I posted earlier. Just a bit smaller.
  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder

    For people like you (casual) a dps meter is more of problem because you don't care that much about improvement which is fine.
    Are you saying that its too difficult for a player of ur caliber to improve without a dps meter?

    Can you calculate your raw dps during a fight? What can be done is recording the fight, taking all your damage numbers, and averaging you dps. Instead of doing that though I would rather just have a system do it for me so its faster. You also seem to forget that when using a dps meter you should only ever use it in a group against a boss. If you factor your dps against adds then you are falsifying your information and doing nothing for yourself or your team.

    Another problem you have to be aware of when running with a team is sometimes they can be better or worse than your previous team before you changed some stats to try and min/max and without that dps meter you have no way of knowing for sure if you are doing better or worse because of all the factors that need to be accounted for such as cooldowns and DoTs.
  • grisu wrote: »
    A dps meter provides a community sieve that takes away a lot of that work. Hence a lot quicker and more prominently.
    So the argument going for dps meters is that it makes things easier and removes work that would otherwise be adding to the community?
    grisu wrote: »
    If they can heal and tank indefinitly to support the "whatever dps"
    Why are u assuming that without dps meters there would be more of "whatever dps" attitude?
    For important and difficult content you would obviously prefer guild mates and players with good reputation, just as you would with dps meters.
    grisu wrote: »
    Bottom line is there has to be some balance between player vs monsters as well as parties/raids vs bosses to ensure engaging content.
    DPS meter provides a tool to see where you are right now and where you need to be to challenge something.
    We have to trust IS on creating bosses that require u to be smart and innovative instead of blindly following max dps meta..

    The arguments ure giving for dps meters are mostly qol and are not mandatory but a subjective preference.
    From an objective pov dps meters dont seem to be adding anything into the game.


    You're seeking perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 2019
    Min/maxing dps to determine better or worse in a boss fight probably shouldn't be a factor with dynamic rather than static content.
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    @dygz min/maxing all aspects of your role should always be a factor in a competitive environment regardless if the content is static or dynamic.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Uh. No.
    Using min/max to try to figure out whether you were better or worse at defeating the boss really has no meaning when you can't repeat that boss fight.
  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    Dygz wrote: »
    Uh. No.
    Using min/max to try to figure out whether you were better or worse at defeating the boss really has no meaning when you can't repeat that boss fight.

    Where and when has IS ever stated we won't be able to repeat any bosses?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bosses
    "Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet".
    – Steven Sharif
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Why would the number of times you could kill a boss have any bearing on when you choose to min/max your performance. Even if you can only kill the boss once, that doesn't mean you're only going to fight it once, boss kills can and should require repetition, wiping over and over as your team learns the mechanics of the fight.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 2019
    The mechanics of the fight will change from session to session.
    Hence, we will be thinking on our feet each time.
    The winning strategy isn't going to be based on comparing min/max dps from previous encounters with that boss.
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    min/maxing dps doesn't mean that you always pull the highest possible damage like you would on a patchwerk style encounter. It means doing everything you can to maximize your output while managing mechanics.
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  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    you don't seem to understand your own reference. There will only be so many variations before we see them all and know what to expect. You also have to wonder how different the variations will actually be. Will they truly make a difference or be negligible differences? These are things we will not know until we actually play, so you may have a point or you may be misinterpreting the information
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited June 2019
    @noaani Details! in WoW is pretty much a full combat tracker ure talking about and noone I know speaks of them as combat tracker but dps addons or meters.
    You can see every skill players pushed before they died. Yet it doesnt reveal players locations nor does it
    always reveal why the group died.
    You will still need to ask personally someone died and believe them or you can ask your raid or track people urself as a leader. What I'm getting to with this is, why is that addon still mandatory? You could skip checking the tracker and directly ask your group what went wrong.
    The players will tell you then if they had dots healers were supposed to dispel, if healer cant manage healing then the group needs to consider going more defensive.
    Your response doesnt still provide a reason why a combat tracker(dps addon) is mandatory to have, or providing more pros than cons.
    For the most part, how things happened in WoW don't mean shit outside of WoW. Just because people in WoW called combat trackers "DPS meters", doesn't mean they are right. Calling a combat tracker a DPS meter adds to the issue of people not knowing how to use them, and ONLY looking at DPS (I mean, it's a DPS meter, why would I look at anything other than DPS?).

    If a utility doesn't tell you what ability a mob deals damage to a given player with, it is not a full combat tracker. If it does tell you what ability the mob damaged a player with, you should then know what went wrong.

    If the encounter attacked the dead player with a regular attack, you know that player pulled aggro.
    If the encounter killed the player with an AoE, you know what went wrong based on the encounters design and your raids plan for the fight.

    You don't need to know a players location in order to know how they died, you simply just need to know what ability caused them damage.

    Often times you can simply ask the raid what went wrong, and sometimes that is faster. However, sometimes players simply don't know themselves what went wrong, and sometimes it is good to have an objective overview of the encounter rather than relying on the subjective view of your raid members.

    Also, many players simply don't want to say that their healer wasn't doing a good enough job, and I can fully understand why. However, if you have an objective overview of the encounter, raw facts and numbers that are not friends with that healer, will always know what happened, and will always be truthful then that is invaluable.

    Finally, I have never said a combat tracker should be mandatory - in fact, I've said the opposite. A combat tracker should be an option, and if Ashes ever got to a situation like WoW and Boss Mods, I'd quit playing in an instant.
    Dygz wrote: »
    I care about improvement. I don't care at all about dps improvement specifically.
    Obviously, people who care about taking down the bosses as efficiently and quickly as possible are going to want whatever tools allow them to do so.
    Spoken like someone who truly doesn't know what they are talking about.

    DPS on raids isn't about speed, it is about success or failure.

    Even encounters without a hard DPS check still require a reasonable amount of DPS - that is why guilds don't simply take raids full of tanks and healers.

    It may be that the encounter spawns adds that will overwhelm the raid if not killed fast enough. It may be the the encounter has a mana drain. It may be that you have a specific window between pathing encounters. None of these are hard DPS checks (which could exist as well), but all of them require DPS in the raid to be on point, and the raid will fail if that is not the case.

    All of the above are perfectly applicable to single group content as well, not just raid content.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Yeah, if we're going to have combat meters, have it for everything, so we can track utility, aggro, healing, cc, buff/debuff, etc -- in addition to dps.
    This though... this I totally agree with.

    If all we get is a DPS meter, it is near worthless - and that is coming from a raid DPS player.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    You know what confirms for Intrepid that they need to stay away from allowing addons in their game? This thread. The old forums had the exact same one (same people in many cases) that ran for a couple thousand "I am right and you're wrong!" posts and here we go again. They have already said that they consider those metrics you are asking for divisive and community breaking. And there is no better proof than reading this. Couple more pages it will devolve into calls of "snowflake," "noob", and "GitGud".
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited June 2019
    You know what confirms for Intrepid that they need to stay away from allowing addons in their game? This thread. The old forums had the exact same one (same people in many cases) that ran for a couple thousand "I am right and you're wrong!" posts and here we go again. They have already said that they consider those metrics you are asking for divisive and community breaking. And there is no better proof than reading this. Couple more pages it will devolve into calls of "snowflake," "noob", and "GitGud".

    I totally agree they can be community breaking, which is why the suggestion I've said all along is that they should make it an optional perk for guilds.

    While the community as a whole is somewhat divided as to whether or not these things are good or bad, in my experience, people within any one given guild usually have similar opinions on things like this. If it is added in a way where it is optional and only tracks people in your guild, I can see almost (not all, I'm not that naive) of the community conflict drifting away.

    I was under the impression that Intrepid said they were still considering it, but leaning (heavily) towards no - rather than it being a hard no. However, even if they have said a hard no, it is still a worthwhile debate to have, imo.
  • You know what confirms for Intrepid that they need to stay away from allowing addons in their game? This thread. The old forums had the exact same one (same people in many cases) that ran for a couple thousand "I am right and you're wrong!" posts and here we go again. They have already said that they consider those metrics you are asking for divisive and community breaking. And there is no better proof than reading this. Couple more pages it will devolve into calls of "snowflake," "noob", and "GitGud".

    We have the right to bicker with each other, AND YOU WILL NOT TAKE THAT FROM US!
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    :D
    I desperately need a LOL button!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 2019
    Noaani wrote: »
    DPS on raids isn't about speed, it is about success or failure.
    It may be that the encounter spawns adds that will overwhelm the raid if not killed fast enough.
    Those two sentences conflict with each other.

    And I'm saying that there should be other ways to ensure that those adds do not overwhelm the raid than just how fast those adds are killed. By focusing on different abilities than DPS abilities.
    Pretty sure the same is true with pathing encounters.
    When I soloed group dungeons in NWO, I still had to deal with timers - make sure that I killed the mini-bosses and bosses within a set window of time before certain actions were triggered, but that wasn't about damage per second. That was about damage within a range of minutes.

    And I accomplished that through strategic snaring and kiting - which are types of strategies I enjoy devising with the folk I fight alongside, rather than relying on DPS meters. I prefer learning what abilities the people I fight alongside like to use and then devising tactics that succeed from there, rather than using metrics to determine the quickest and most efficient - cookie-cutter strategy to defeat our opponents.
    And I don't mind wiping many, many times before we figure out the winning strategy as long as we're having fun using the abilities and tactics that conform with our roleplay visions.

    If I'm playing an Ice Wizard, I don't want people telling me I need to use Repel abilities because the DPS meter indicates that's the most efficient way to defeat the boss. Nor do I want people telling me that I need to switch from a Feral Druid spec to a Moonkin Druid spec. I'm roleplaying a Cat; not a frickin' Tree.
    In Ashes, I would rather figure out how the Tank can best place Bulwark and provide Cover than worry about the Tank's DPS. If the Mage is min/maxed to be awesome at Black Hole, Ice Prison and Ice Sheet rather than DPS, that's great too. Let's find a way to make that work.
    I don't expect to need DPS meters to do so. And... we shouldn't have to rely on DPS meters to do so.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    you don't seem to understand your own reference. There will only be so many variations before we see them all and know what to expect. You also have to wonder how different the variations will actually be. Will they truly make a difference or be negligible differences? These are things we will not know until we actually play, so you may have a point or you may be misinterpreting the information
    It's not that I may have a point or I may be misinterpreting the info.
    Rather, the info may be something the devs can fulfill or just hopeful hype they aren't able to implement.

  • Noaani wrote: »
    Finally, I have never said a combat tracker should be mandatory - in fact, I've said the opposite.
    I meant mandatory for the game itself, not isolated player. What are the actual cons of not having an ACT(Advanced Combat Tracker)? We can manage everything without ACT, sometimes with increased difficulty.
    Noaani wrote: »
    You don't need to know a players location in order to know how they died, you simply just need to know what ability caused them damage.
    It's not always enough knowing how someone died, but why. ACT cant tell if someone couldve done something or did something wrong that doesnt show, like walked past eggs that break into adds.
    Noaani wrote: »
    sometimes it is good to have an objective overview of the encounter rather than relying on the subjective view of your raid members.
    Also, many players simply don't want to say that their healer wasn't doing a good enough job, and I can fully understand why. However, if you have an objective overview of the encounter, raw facts and numbers that are not friends with that healer
    I can understand that, but that is where we can adapt and develop as humans.
    Give good criticism and guidance, learn to kick players unable or unwilling to learn even when it makes u feel bad.
    You're seeking perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
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