Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Cant edit on mobile for some reason, but I re read your post and you seem to understand that most people aren't going to be using this information correctly. So I'm unsure as to what the point you're making is?
Overall, I think the DPS meter is nice for players to have access to, but is unnecessary for others to have access to.
@grisu
I have no negative experiences with raid teams. I'm sorry you couldn't follow my example.
As a tool, ACT is able to tell the whole raid WHO is doing what amount of damage, WHEN they are doing that damage (no point in attacking a boss if they have a reflect up), and even HOW players are damaging an opponent.
On top of that, ACT is able to tell players who is healing, who is receiving healing, who is receiving damage, how much damage is being mitigated, how many attacks are being blocked or parried and a whole host of other, useful things.
I'm going to go back to the mechanic comparison from earlier. Almost all cars run via the same process - internal combustion engines. This has been a thing for 133 years now, and in that time, car manufacturers have gone to great lengths to get the most efficiency out of this basic process.
One of the things manufacturers have done to get the most they can out of an internal combustion engine is they have set several subsystems to run off of computer systems rather than purely mechanical operation, to get better performance than they would be able to otherwise get.
In order to allow mechanics to repair these high tech cars, manufacturers have developed diagnostic tools that can be plugged in to the on board computer in order to get diagnostic information. Without these tools, workshops would have a hard time figuring out exactly what is wrong with any given car, as often the issues don't present themselves in a mechanical manner.
To me, a combat tracker is like this diagnostic tool. It's only needed if the developers want to really push their content. If they keep content simple - DPS check mob, then a heal check mob etc - there is no real need. If, however, they want to push content to be new, interesting and exciting, us players need tools to be able to diagnose things when it isn't working as we expect.
I, personally, am hoping the developers make actual interesting encounters.
That said, I understand how some people dislike DPS meters and such. No one wants to be called out for poor DPS, even if you are on a pickup raid as a healer. Sadly though, many players think they know what they are talking about, regardless of evidence to the contrary.
So, my suggestion would be to put in a full combat tracking system in, but put it in as an option at the guild level. Almost all guilds would either be "for" or "against" using such a meter in guild groups and raids, so give them the chance. If a guild advertises as using a meter, then when joining, you know what to expect, and if they advertise as not using it, then you also know what to expect. If joining a pickup group or raid, a DPS meter is not an option.
To me, this is the best way to appease all people.
I also believe that (as of the information we currently have) Ashes of Creation won't require dps meters or boss mod addons to complete the raid content. WoW raids are designed in such a way that you need those third party tools in order to succeed, at least when it comes to mythic raiding. And despite people complaining that WoW combat is boring, the amount of under-the-hood mechanics that make up the combat make it the most complex in any game I've played.
Simply put, in order to do mythic raiding in WoW, you have to get the most out of your class. And in order to do that you need a host of addons including dps meters.
@noaani I like your car mechanic analogy. To extent it a little bit, putting a dps meter into Ashes is like using modern car diagnostic tools to fix a car built in the 1920s.
If you cannot tell you or someone else is not doing what they are suppose to be doing by just watching and learning...then you don't deserve to know.
Game for fun, not for life
So you have the time to watch after other players in a raid, while doing mechanics and organizing the whole raid?
It is impossible to watch over 40 people in a fight, while managing the rest of the raid...
Without a way to see where the raid lacks in damage, you will just wipe and wipe and wipe again, without knowing who does not pull his own weight....
You can often get more reliable information from just looking around you at what is happening. Yes it's harder to do but we'll worth it if you can manage it.
Raids very rarely wipe due to lack of damage. Yes, having higher damage output can make a fight easier, and in some cases higher damage can make up for mistakes, but most of the time it just comes down to execution.
If you execute the fight properly and don't die, you will kill the boss. This is the main difference in mindset between your average WoW player and a top mythic raider. A mythic raider only cares about dps parses when a boss is on farm because they understand that execution is everything in progression raiding.
They do still have hard enrage timers/dps checks though?
Example:
Fallen Avatar - you had to kill him before he destroyed all platforms (i know a weak example but it still applies)
Il'gynoth - Kill him too slow and he will insta kill you i think
Ursoc - Kill him too slowly and he will fill the room with corruption
Skorpyron - Berserks after 3rd intermission i think (somewhere around that time)
Spellblade Aluriel - Spellblade enrages right after second batch of Arcane adds finish their Armageddon on HC
Krosus - Kill him too slow and he will break the bridge and kill you all
Etraeus - Had an hard enrage timer 3m into the last phase
Tichondrius - had also an hard enrage timer i believe
Eilsande - 5min into second phase
Gul'Dan - Hard enrage at around 12min mark
Those are all from the top of my head.
All bosses here are from Legion though, because i only raided really actively there and only here and ther in BfA until i stopped
No one will ever know about the other 6 paragraphs that just rehashed old arguments, which I wrote and deleted.
Fair enough, my mistake. I didn't raid much at all during Legion and actually never did Nighthold. In BFA quite a few bosses have soft enrages where the longer a fight is, the harder it gets, but as far as I know, none of them have a hard enrage that just wipes the group. The point still stands though that the majority of raid wipes come from failing mechanics, not hitting the enrage timer, not to mention that WoW bosses generally require a lot of movement which has a huge impact on dps. Gone are the days where you literally stood in front of a boss and wailed on it for 10 minutes as a dps-check.
That's why I say that looking at your actual raid members is a lot more reliable for checking competence than looking at a damage meter. A damage meter doesn't tell you where players are standing or moving, and this can have an impact not only on your own dps, but your teammates who may have to move out of your way if you choose a bad place to stand/move.
Just for example, look at the Gul'dan fight. In Phase 3 you have to deal with the Flames of Sargeras debuffs. If I'm dps'ing the boss and someone else with the debuff stands too close to me, I'm going to have to move, which will reduce my own dps. If the raid leader just looks at the dps meter all they will see is that my dps dropped, and nothing else.
A good combat tracker, as opposed to just a damage meter, will be able to tell the whole group/raid what is going on.
The combat tracker I've used in the past (Advanced Combat Tracker) will tell the whole raid how often that player used their damage boost to others in the group/raid.
If it is a new player and a good raid leader, they will be able to use that info to help that new player become better. A good raid leader knows that personal DPS is not the number one metric to judge all classes by, and that some classes - such as one with a raid wide 10% damage boosting ability - are all about buffing others in the raid rather than pushing out raw numbers themselves. A good raid leader will be able to tell this new player that they aren't expected to push out high DPS numbers, but rather their ability at their class will be judged by how well they boost the raids DPS as a whole.
If all we were to get was a pure DPS meter, I'd consider it to be a waste of time. If we get actual, useful information though, it will be - obviously - actually useful.
That depends entirely how interconnected the different classes are in terms of combat.
Back when it first came out, and for at least a few years after (no idea about after that ) WoW had virtually no inter-connectivity between classes. Any given player was able to just sit there and bash out their rotation with no regard to what any other player is doing (other than following the script of the encounter).
Other games, however, have high levels of inter-connectivity. In these games, players would often wait for a specific buff to be cast before casting some spells, with spell rotations making way for spell priority that was fluid based on what buffs you had on you at any given time.
If Ashes goes more the WoW route, then I'd agree it would be like using a modern diagnostic tool on a 1920's car. Even if that car happens to be a Rolls-Royce Phantom I, that type of combat system is still boring and essentially static.
If it goes more for the second, a system that is fluid and dynamic because other classes have the ability to affect what is best for you to cast at any given point, then I'd say it is like using a diagnostic tool on a Bugatti Veyron.
I'm hoping for a more dynamic system. If I am DPS in a raid, I what the buffing classes that are present to have noticeable effect on what I do. If I am a buffer on a raid, I want the DPS to be happy that I am there - due to me making a noticeable impact on them.
If I'm remembering correctly, they said they do want some sort of damage tracking. However, they dislike the idea of traditional DPS meters.
So maybe like a damage log at the end of the dungeon or something. It's difficult to try to not promote negativity, but players still want a metric of how they're performing. It will be interesting to see what is allowed and what is not with the systems they develop.
Addon Developer
OG Backer
Would be nice to recieve a damagechart for each boss after the raid is over. It doesn't promote negativity and elitism, but it does help you improve in certain aspects of your playstyle.
"Oh I only dealt half the damage I was expecting on this boss who's more AoE oriented? Maybe I should pick a talent that allows me to do better AoE dmg or change my rotation a bit"
As for people that take into consideration the dps of a support class to determine their effectiveness need to be kicked from whatever guild they are in and blacklisted. Luckily AoC will be another game that will allow me to build up a YD (Your Dead) list
Did you just assume that supports wont be able to dps?!? EXCLAMATION MARK
I will show you a dps support that you will never have seen before, only comparable to the legendary early AION melee chanter dps!
Bard/Cleric with a spear/polearm and heavy armour, why only one roll when you can do them all at once?!?
Welp, we have our first victim to be added to the list. Now we all need to flail them with dildos
Oh you charmer!
Always!
Back in WoW during the WotLK era, we were at the end game raids (leading up to fighting the Lich King himself). Measuring the success of our tanks and healers was easy... If the tanks kept aggro and the healers weren’t complaining they were doing their jobs. If people weren’t dying (except for doing stupid stuff like not stepping out of bonfires) the healers were doing their jobs. But there was no easy way to measure the DPS folks.
I was a rogue and my job was to do as much damage as possible. The DPS meter was how I was able to measure how well I was doing. And it also let my guild know. At first I was clearly not doing as well as I should, so I improved my gear, adjusted my strategy, and practiced on target dummies. I changed my build and changed my skill priorities. I was careful to hit my most important skills as soon as they became available. And my DPS meter let me see how well I was doing.
It was very satisfying to see myself do better and it was a part of how our guild improved and was able to eventually get all the way through end game content. It was one of the most gratifying things I’ve done in an MMO. Also, I was one of two rogues and we had a friendly rivalry where we kept trying to beat each other with different builds, and that competition helped both of us improve.
So with my firsthand experience I can say DPS meters can be a massive help. But I have to give a few caveats... This was a guild composed of friends who had been gaming together for years. We supported and trusted each other so feedback was well-intentioned and well-received. When someone needed to improve to not hold back everyone else, there was no consideration to kicking someone out or excluding them, and nobody made anyone feel bad about their performance. We just tried to help each other. In a different environment this kind of tool can certainly be used in a negative way. Especially in a group of strangers or where people are toxic to each other.
Bottom line, it’s not the tool that’s bad. It’s how it is used. Just like “gear scores” there is potential for it to help or hinder. It all comes down to the people involved.
ETA: We used the DPS meter to judge relative damage performance. We didn’t set an arbitrary number everyone had to meet on every fight. As was pointed out earlier, based on the nature of fight mechanics some battles will by necessity end up with greater results than others. It just let us see if a couple people weren’t even close to the others that they needed help to improve. And it also let us know in an abstract way how well we were doing as damage-dealers. But we had no “hit 2K each fight or you suck” kind of mentality. That’s just idiotic, I hope nobody ever uses it that way.
Thus there is too much focus on relying on that as the sole measure of performing well.
As a Stealth Rogue, I don't want my usefulness to be measured primarily by DPS.
I want my usefulness to be determined by how well I Stealth, Recon and Disarm Traps.
Character could be doing a wide variety of other beneficial tasks that result in low DPS.
If we're going to have DPS meters, I also want other types of meters - like a soak meter and/or aggro meter for Tanks. Etc.
At the end of the day - I care about finding a way for our group to defeat the challenge - I don't really care about the DPS.
Being unable to evaluate others by how they act on ur screen and what they really do in combat means u dont deserve to judge them by a dps meter.
When players see someone doing weirdness and ask them, they should be able to provide some reasonable explanation. Their answer will give u a hint of their skill and will to improve.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther