DPS Meter Megathread

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  • burnthefernburnthefern Member, Settler
    @wanderingmist
    Cant edit on mobile for some reason, but I re read your post and you seem to understand that most people aren't going to be using this information correctly. So I'm unsure as to what the point you're making is?
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    It's not about making all classes balanced to each other. But each class will likely have an optimal build. I would assume hardcore raid teams would be more likely to expect the optimal build on raids than other guilds or raid teams.

    Overall, I think the DPS meter is nice for players to have access to, but is unnecessary for others to have access to.

    @grisu
    I have no negative experiences with raid teams. I'm sorry you couldn't follow my example.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited May 2019
    I've always been a big fan of DPS meters. More specifically, I've always been a big fan of Advanced Combat Tracker.

    As a tool, ACT is able to tell the whole raid WHO is doing what amount of damage, WHEN they are doing that damage (no point in attacking a boss if they have a reflect up), and even HOW players are damaging an opponent.

    On top of that, ACT is able to tell players who is healing, who is receiving healing, who is receiving damage, how much damage is being mitigated, how many attacks are being blocked or parried and a whole host of other, useful things.

    I'm going to go back to the mechanic comparison from earlier. Almost all cars run via the same process - internal combustion engines. This has been a thing for 133 years now, and in that time, car manufacturers have gone to great lengths to get the most efficiency out of this basic process.

    One of the things manufacturers have done to get the most they can out of an internal combustion engine is they have set several subsystems to run off of computer systems rather than purely mechanical operation, to get better performance than they would be able to otherwise get.

    In order to allow mechanics to repair these high tech cars, manufacturers have developed diagnostic tools that can be plugged in to the on board computer in order to get diagnostic information. Without these tools, workshops would have a hard time figuring out exactly what is wrong with any given car, as often the issues don't present themselves in a mechanical manner.

    To me, a combat tracker is like this diagnostic tool. It's only needed if the developers want to really push their content. If they keep content simple - DPS check mob, then a heal check mob etc - there is no real need. If, however, they want to push content to be new, interesting and exciting, us players need tools to be able to diagnose things when it isn't working as we expect.

    I, personally, am hoping the developers make actual interesting encounters.

    That said, I understand how some people dislike DPS meters and such. No one wants to be called out for poor DPS, even if you are on a pickup raid as a healer. Sadly though, many players think they know what they are talking about, regardless of evidence to the contrary.

    So, my suggestion would be to put in a full combat tracking system in, but put it in as an option at the guild level. Almost all guilds would either be "for" or "against" using such a meter in guild groups and raids, so give them the chance. If a guild advertises as using a meter, then when joining, you know what to expect, and if they advertise as not using it, then you also know what to expect. If joining a pickup group or raid, a DPS meter is not an option.

    To me, this is the best way to appease all people.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    edited May 2019
    @burnthefern I'm perfectly ok with exclusion in games, and even if I weren't it would be inevitable. After all, if you are doing raid content that requires every single person to pull their own weight, you only want to take the best people for the job. My problem with dps meters is that it causes unnecessary exclusion due to ignorance.

    I also believe that (as of the information we currently have) Ashes of Creation won't require dps meters or boss mod addons to complete the raid content. WoW raids are designed in such a way that you need those third party tools in order to succeed, at least when it comes to mythic raiding. And despite people complaining that WoW combat is boring, the amount of under-the-hood mechanics that make up the combat make it the most complex in any game I've played.

    Simply put, in order to do mythic raiding in WoW, you have to get the most out of your class. And in order to do that you need a host of addons including dps meters.

    @noaani I like your car mechanic analogy. To extent it a little bit, putting a dps meter into Ashes is like using modern car diagnostic tools to fix a car built in the 1920s.
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  • WololoWololo Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    So is it true that with a DPS meter, a player in raids should be spamming his own autoattack that gives 60% damage increse instead of a skill that gives your whole group of 7 to 40 people a 10% damage boost ? I just feel that whole DPS goal takes away from making any sort of plays that doesnt give you DPS but still help the party. A newer player with less strong gear would prefer to keep the DPS up instead of peeling/buffing/healing for a few teammates that are about to die, just because he needs to prove himselve with a DPS number.
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  • ezenkrul87ezenkrul87 Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    No reason at all for a DPS meter and if I recall correctly they do not want to implement one or allow add ons. Which is AMAZING.
    If you cannot tell you or someone else is not doing what they are suppose to be doing by just watching and learning...then you don't deserve to know.
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  • ezenkrul87 wrote: »
    If you cannot tell you or someone else is not doing what they are suppose to be doing by just watching and learning...then you don't deserve to know.

    So you have the time to watch after other players in a raid, while doing mechanics and organizing the whole raid?
    It is impossible to watch over 40 people in a fight, while managing the rest of the raid...
    Without a way to see where the raid lacks in damage, you will just wipe and wipe and wipe again, without knowing who does not pull his own weight....
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    Damokles wrote: »
    ezenkrul87 wrote: »
    If you cannot tell you or someone else is not doing what they are suppose to be doing by just watching and learning...then you don't deserve to know.

    So you have the time to watch after other players in a raid, while doing mechanics and organizing the whole raid?
    It is impossible to watch over 40 people in a fight, while managing the rest of the raid...
    Without a way to see where the raid lacks in damage, you will just wipe and wipe and wipe again, without knowing who does not pull his own weight....

    You can often get more reliable information from just looking around you at what is happening. Yes it's harder to do but we'll worth it if you can manage it.

    Raids very rarely wipe due to lack of damage. Yes, having higher damage output can make a fight easier, and in some cases higher damage can make up for mistakes, but most of the time it just comes down to execution.

    If you execute the fight properly and don't die, you will kill the boss. This is the main difference in mindset between your average WoW player and a top mythic raider. A mythic raider only cares about dps parses when a boss is on farm because they understand that execution is everything in progression raiding.
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  • ChadathanSwaftworthChadathanSwaftworth Member, Settler
    edited May 2019
    If you execute the fight properly and don't die, you will kill the boss. This is the main difference in mindset between your average WoW player and a top mythic raider. A mythic raider only cares about dps parses when a boss is on farm because they understand that execution is everything in progression raiding.
    I've never done WoW raiding before, but I thought DPS checks and enrage timers were pretty common. Is that just a trend of the past? Or was I misinformed?
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    @leonerdo WoW bosses don't have hard enrage timers anymore, and haven't for quite some time. I could be wrong but I don't think any boss has had a hard enrage timer since Cata. For the record I hated hard enrage timers on bosses, and I was very glad to see they had gone from the game.
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    edited May 2019
    @wanderingmist
    They do still have hard enrage timers/dps checks though?
    Example:
    Fallen Avatar - you had to kill him before he destroyed all platforms (i know a weak example but it still applies)
    Il'gynoth - Kill him too slow and he will insta kill you i think
    Ursoc - Kill him too slowly and he will fill the room with corruption
    Skorpyron - Berserks after 3rd intermission i think (somewhere around that time)
    Spellblade Aluriel - Spellblade enrages right after second batch of Arcane adds finish their Armageddon on HC
    Krosus - Kill him too slow and he will break the bridge and kill you all
    Etraeus - Had an hard enrage timer 3m into the last phase
    Tichondrius - had also an hard enrage timer i believe
    Eilsande - 5min into second phase
    Gul'Dan - Hard enrage at around 12min mark

    Those are all from the top of my head.

    All bosses here are from Legion though, because i only raided really actively there and only here and ther in BfA until i stopped :D
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  • ChadathanSwaftworthChadathanSwaftworth Member, Settler
    It might help if personal DPS meters were tied to Military nodes in some way. (Maybe you could buy them, or maybe they are limited to citizens.) That way, it's something the player has to specifically opt into, and it sets the expectation that most players will not have them, and will not need them. Maybe hard-core guilds could also earn the right to group-wide meters. (And maybe irresponsible guilds could lose that privilege.) Side benefit: hard-core guild wouldn't have to require their members to bring-your-own-meter.

    No one will ever know about the other 6 paragraphs that just rehashed old arguments, which I wrote and deleted.
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  • I'm gonna have to say DPS meters in mmos are in bad taste unless your utilizing them sully for self improvement and thats rarely the use case sadly. DPS meters /Parsers unintentionally create a large divide in gaming communities iv seen it happen in FFXIV and a couple others games. I used to be one of those guys that used ACT in FFXIV to directly target people that i thought didn't do the best my self. In fact Third party data parsing programs should be bannable they really do ruin games and turn them toxic.
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    edited May 2019
    Damokles wrote: »
    @wanderingmist
    They do still have hard enrage timers/dps checks though?
    Example:
    Fallen Avatar - you had to kill him before he destroyed all platforms (i know a weak example but it still applies)
    Il'gynoth - Kill him too slow and he will insta kill you i think
    Ursoc - Kill him too slowly and he will fill the room with corruption
    Skorpyron - Berserks after 3rd intermission i think (somewhere around that time)
    Spellblade Aluriel - Spellblade enrages right after second batch of Arcane adds finish their Armageddon on HC
    Krosus - Kill him too slow and he will break the bridge and kill you all
    Etraeus - Had an hard enrage timer 3m into the last phase
    Tichondrius - had also an hard enrage timer i believe
    Eilsande - 5min into second phase
    Gul'Dan - Hard enrage at around 12min mark

    Those are all from the top of my head.

    All bosses here are from Legion though, because i only raided really actively there and only here and ther in BfA until i stopped :D

    Fair enough, my mistake. I didn't raid much at all during Legion and actually never did Nighthold. In BFA quite a few bosses have soft enrages where the longer a fight is, the harder it gets, but as far as I know, none of them have a hard enrage that just wipes the group. The point still stands though that the majority of raid wipes come from failing mechanics, not hitting the enrage timer, not to mention that WoW bosses generally require a lot of movement which has a huge impact on dps. Gone are the days where you literally stood in front of a boss and wailed on it for 10 minutes as a dps-check.

    That's why I say that looking at your actual raid members is a lot more reliable for checking competence than looking at a damage meter. A damage meter doesn't tell you where players are standing or moving, and this can have an impact not only on your own dps, but your teammates who may have to move out of your way if you choose a bad place to stand/move.

    Just for example, look at the Gul'dan fight. In Phase 3 you have to deal with the Flames of Sargeras debuffs. If I'm dps'ing the boss and someone else with the debuff stands too close to me, I'm going to have to move, which will reduce my own dps. If the raid leader just looks at the dps meter all they will see is that my dps dropped, and nothing else.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited May 2019
    shkevi wrote: »
    So is it true that with a DPS meter, a player in raids should be spamming his own autoattack that gives 60% damage increse instead of a skill that gives your whole group of 7 to 40 people a 10% damage boost ? I just feel that whole DPS goal takes away from making any sort of plays that doesnt give you DPS but still help the party. A newer player with less strong gear would prefer to keep the DPS up instead of peeling/buffing/healing for a few teammates that are about to die, just because he needs to prove himselve with a DPS number.

    A good combat tracker, as opposed to just a damage meter, will be able to tell the whole group/raid what is going on.

    The combat tracker I've used in the past (Advanced Combat Tracker) will tell the whole raid how often that player used their damage boost to others in the group/raid.

    If it is a new player and a good raid leader, they will be able to use that info to help that new player become better. A good raid leader knows that personal DPS is not the number one metric to judge all classes by, and that some classes - such as one with a raid wide 10% damage boosting ability - are all about buffing others in the raid rather than pushing out raw numbers themselves. A good raid leader will be able to tell this new player that they aren't expected to push out high DPS numbers, but rather their ability at their class will be judged by how well they boost the raids DPS as a whole.

    If all we were to get was a pure DPS meter, I'd consider it to be a waste of time. If we get actual, useful information though, it will be - obviously - actually useful.

    @noaani I like your car mechanic analogy. To extent it a little bit, putting a dps meter into Ashes is like using modern car diagnostic tools to fix a car built in the 1920s.
    That depends entirely how interconnected the different classes are in terms of combat.

    Back when it first came out, and for at least a few years after (no idea about after that ) WoW had virtually no inter-connectivity between classes. Any given player was able to just sit there and bash out their rotation with no regard to what any other player is doing (other than following the script of the encounter).

    Other games, however, have high levels of inter-connectivity. In these games, players would often wait for a specific buff to be cast before casting some spells, with spell rotations making way for spell priority that was fluid based on what buffs you had on you at any given time.

    If Ashes goes more the WoW route, then I'd agree it would be like using a modern diagnostic tool on a 1920's car. Even if that car happens to be a Rolls-Royce Phantom I, that type of combat system is still boring and essentially static.

    If it goes more for the second, a system that is fluid and dynamic because other classes have the ability to affect what is best for you to cast at any given point, then I'd say it is like using a diagnostic tool on a Bugatti Veyron.

    I'm hoping for a more dynamic system. If I am DPS in a raid, I what the buffing classes that are present to have noticeable effect on what I do. If I am a buffer on a raid, I want the DPS to be happy that I am there - due to me making a noticeable impact on them.
  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds
    So long as they are available to everyone, I see no issues with them
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  • GubstepGubstep Member, Braver of Worlds
    They've commented in a previous stream about DPS meters iirc.
    If I'm remembering correctly, they said they do want some sort of damage tracking. However, they dislike the idea of traditional DPS meters.

    So maybe like a damage log at the end of the dungeon or something. It's difficult to try to not promote negativity, but players still want a metric of how they're performing. It will be interesting to see what is allowed and what is not with the systems they develop.
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  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds
    bazgrim wrote: »
    They've commented in a previous stream about DPS meters iirc.
    If I'm remembering correctly, they said they do want some sort of damage tracking. However, they dislike the idea of traditional DPS meters.

    So maybe like a damage log at the end of the dungeon or something. It's difficult to try to not promote negativity, but players still want a metric of how they're performing. It will be interesting to see what is allowed and what is not with the systems they develop.

    Would be nice to recieve a damagechart for each boss after the raid is over. It doesn't promote negativity and elitism, but it does help you improve in certain aspects of your playstyle.

    "Oh I only dealt half the damage I was expecting on this boss who's more AoE oriented? Maybe I should pick a talent that allows me to do better AoE dmg or change my rotation a bit"
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  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    I gotta say this post has been a fun read :smile: I posted this then left it for a few days, and didn't expect many people to respond, but this was pretty good. I plan on measuring my own dps one way or another whether the devs support it or not. Even if it means making my own dps meter :smiley: TBH I could care less how everyone else is doing, as long as they are doing their job. The only people I have dick measuring contests with are my friends and guildmates :wink:

    As for people that take into consideration the dps of a support class to determine their effectiveness need to be kicked from whatever guild they are in and blacklisted. Luckily AoC will be another game that will allow me to build up a YD (Your Dead) list :smiley: You wanna be a douche? Prepare to die EVERY TIME I SEE YOU!
  • As for people that take into consideration the dps of a support class to determine their effectiveness need to be kicked from whatever guild they are in and blacklisted

    Did you just assume that supports wont be able to dps?!? EXCLAMATION MARK
    I will show you a dps support that you will never have seen before, only comparable to the legendary early AION melee chanter dps!

    Bard/Cleric with a spear/polearm and heavy armour, why only one roll when you can do them all at once?!?
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  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    Damokles wrote: »
    As for people that take into consideration the dps of a support class to determine their effectiveness need to be kicked from whatever guild they are in and blacklisted

    Did you just assume that supports wont be able to dps?!? EXCLAMATION MARK
    I will show you a dps support that you will never have seen before, only comparable to the legendary early AION melee chanter dps!

    Bard/Cleric with a spear/polearm and heavy armour, why only one roll when you can do them all at once?!?

    Welp, we have our first victim to be added to the list. Now we all need to flail them with dildos :smile:
  • Damokles wrote: »
    As for people that take into consideration the dps of a support class to determine their effectiveness need to be kicked from whatever guild they are in and blacklisted

    Did you just assume that supports wont be able to dps?!? EXCLAMATION MARK
    I will show you a dps support that you will never have seen before, only comparable to the legendary early AION melee chanter dps!

    Bard/Cleric with a spear/polearm and heavy armour, why only one roll when you can do them all at once?!?

    Welp, we have our first victim to be added to the list. Now we all need to flail them with dildos :smile:

    Oh you charmer!
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  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    Damokles wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    As for people that take into consideration the dps of a support class to determine their effectiveness need to be kicked from whatever guild they are in and blacklisted

    Did you just assume that supports wont be able to dps?!? EXCLAMATION MARK
    I will show you a dps support that you will never have seen before, only comparable to the legendary early AION melee chanter dps!

    Bard/Cleric with a spear/polearm and heavy armour, why only one roll when you can do them all at once?!?

    Welp, we have our first victim to be added to the list. Now we all need to flail them with dildos :smile:

    Oh you charmer!
    ks02EQw.jpg

    Always! :wink:
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    I want on the list. I won't measure my stats, and you'll never cross my name off your list.
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited May 2019
    I’ve had good experiences with DPS meters.

    Back in WoW during the WotLK era, we were at the end game raids (leading up to fighting the Lich King himself). Measuring the success of our tanks and healers was easy... If the tanks kept aggro and the healers weren’t complaining they were doing their jobs. If people weren’t dying (except for doing stupid stuff like not stepping out of bonfires) the healers were doing their jobs. But there was no easy way to measure the DPS folks.

    I was a rogue and my job was to do as much damage as possible. The DPS meter was how I was able to measure how well I was doing. And it also let my guild know. At first I was clearly not doing as well as I should, so I improved my gear, adjusted my strategy, and practiced on target dummies. I changed my build and changed my skill priorities. I was careful to hit my most important skills as soon as they became available. And my DPS meter let me see how well I was doing.

    It was very satisfying to see myself do better and it was a part of how our guild improved and was able to eventually get all the way through end game content. It was one of the most gratifying things I’ve done in an MMO. Also, I was one of two rogues and we had a friendly rivalry where we kept trying to beat each other with different builds, and that competition helped both of us improve.

    So with my firsthand experience I can say DPS meters can be a massive help. But I have to give a few caveats... This was a guild composed of friends who had been gaming together for years. We supported and trusted each other so feedback was well-intentioned and well-received. When someone needed to improve to not hold back everyone else, there was no consideration to kicking someone out or excluding them, and nobody made anyone feel bad about their performance. We just tried to help each other. In a different environment this kind of tool can certainly be used in a negative way. Especially in a group of strangers or where people are toxic to each other.

    Bottom line, it’s not the tool that’s bad. It’s how it is used. Just like “gear scores” there is potential for it to help or hinder. It all comes down to the people involved.

    ETA: We used the DPS meter to judge relative damage performance. We didn’t set an arbitrary number everyone had to meet on every fight. As was pointed out earlier, based on the nature of fight mechanics some battles will by necessity end up with greater results than others. It just let us see if a couple people weren’t even close to the others that they needed help to improve. And it also let us know in an abstract way how well we were doing as damage-dealers. But we had no “hit 2K each fight or you suck” kind of mentality. That’s just idiotic, I hope nobody ever uses it that way.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    My problem with DPS meters is that it's the only tool used to evaluate roles.
    Thus there is too much focus on relying on that as the sole measure of performing well.

    As a Stealth Rogue, I don't want my usefulness to be measured primarily by DPS.
    I want my usefulness to be determined by how well I Stealth, Recon and Disarm Traps.
    Character could be doing a wide variety of other beneficial tasks that result in low DPS.

    If we're going to have DPS meters, I also want other types of meters - like a soak meter and/or aggro meter for Tanks. Etc.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Noaani wrote: »
    A good combat tracker, as opposed to just a damage meter, will be able to tell the whole group/raid what is going on.

    The combat tracker I've used in the past (Advanced Combat Tracker) will tell the whole raid how often that player used their damage boost to others in the group/raid.

    If it is a new player and a good raid leader, they will be able to use that info to help that new player become better. A good raid leader knows that personal DPS is not the number one metric to judge all classes by, and that some classes - such as one with a raid wide 10% damage boosting ability - are all about buffing others in the raid rather than pushing out raw numbers themselves. A good raid leader will be able to tell this new player that they aren't expected to push out high DPS numbers, but rather their ability at their class will be judged by how well they boost the raids DPS as a whole.

    If all we were to get was a pure DPS meter, I'd consider it to be a waste of time. If we get actual, useful information though, it will be - obviously - actually useful.
    I would rather pay attention to how the members of my group like to play and figure out to best support their tactics than focus on DPS - especially DPS calculated by a meter.
    At the end of the day - I care about finding a way for our group to defeat the challenge - I don't really care about the DPS.

  • solarissolaris Member, Braver of Worlds
    Personally I think Mods like DPS meters ruin MMOs. If you can't figure out what you're doing wrong well...
  • I dont think dps meters are required for group content and I agree with ezenkrul87's point.
    Being unable to evaluate others by how they act on ur screen and what they really do in combat means u dont deserve to judge them by a dps meter.

    When players see someone doing weirdness and ask them, they should be able to provide some reasonable explanation. Their answer will give u a hint of their skill and will to improve.
    You're seeking perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    @blackhearted unfortunately, in WoW you definitely need dps meters, simply because there is so much going on in the combat that it's impossible to tell what is doing damage without a dps meter.
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